Spuffy #7 - General Discussion

[Gum Gnome33]

1. "This is how it goes" by Aimee Mann is used to great effect in the S. 7 episode Sleeper. The song contains the line "So I try to hold on While you try to let go". . . Thinking of Buffy and Spike, particularly in season 7 (and beyond), who do you think is trying to 'hold on' and who do you think is 'trying to let go"? why?

I agree with you, @Tranquility, Spike is trying to "let go," and Buffy is trying to "hold on." I'll add to what you said already--I think she's sort of trying to have it both ways with him, in season 7, not wanting to start an actual relationship but not at all ready to consider the possibility that he would move on, or move away. Gosh, it's so clear in her eyes when she looks at him throughout that whole season!

2. Do you think James and Sarah's/Spike and Buffy's chemistry stands out in any season/episode, or is it equally potent in all of them?

I seriously don't think I've seen the amount of chemistry they have, between any other two actors. I mean season 6 is the more obvious place to start since they are acting on it and it's strikingly obvious, but it is still just as powerful in 7, 5--even 4, (and maybe even 2?)

3. Are there any benefits at all to Spike/Buffy in comic art over Spike/Buffy in live performances?

Well, for me, nothing comes close to that on-screen chemistry. However, it is possible to reveal certain things to the audience without the simultaneous reveal to the other character, like when Buffy daydreams about making out with Spike while he's talking to her. Getting to see what either of them is really thinking about while they interact is one big benefit I suppose.

4. Do you think (comic artist) Georges Jeanty has a better handle on Buffy or on Spike?

Yikes, I don't really love either, but maybe Buffy?

5. In a Spike/Buffy universe, who would you ship Spike and Buffy's other love interests (Dru, Angel, Riley, Satsu etc...) with, if anyone?

Dru- Not really a one man/woman/demon kinda gal. Which is funny, considering she was with Spike for over a century. But I think she's kind of finished with monogamy for awhile, so no specific 'ships for her.

Angel- Love the idea of Cordy for Angel.

Riley- I think Sam is great for him!

Satsu- Meh, don't know enough about her

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Right now George Jeanty accepts questions on another board, dedicated to Buffy comics. The Q&As have a "no shipping" rule, but I PMed to the mod, explained the situation, offered a ship-neutral phrasing and he agreed to make an exception "to clear the air on that matter since there are conflicting reports out there" as he said.

I posted the question:

At the Dragon Con, you were talking about Joss' stance on Buffy's relationship with Angel and Spike. The problem is that nobody made a video of that panel; we only have fan reports, but different reports retell your words differently.

Question: could you repeat what you said on Dragon Con about Joss' stance on Buffy's relationship with Angel and Spike -- for the fans who weren't there?

We'll see what Georges replies. Of course, he can't repeat Joss' words verbatim - but, hopefully he won't mind to reveal Joss insights on that matter. Although I suspect that Joss could do that just to temper Jeanty's Bangelness a bit 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Right now George Jeanty accepts questions on another board, dedicated to Buffy comics. The Q&As have a "no shipping" rule, but I PMed to the mod, explained the situation, offered a ship-neutral phrasing and he agreed to make an exception "to clear the air on that matter since there are conflicting reports out there" as he said.

I posted the question:




We'll see what Georges replies. Of course, he can't repeat Joss' words verbatim - but, hopefully he won't mind to reveal Joss insights on that matter. Although I suspect that Joss could do that just to temper Jeanty's Bangelness a bit 🙂

Thanks for this, Elena. Excited to see his response.

Angel...perfect? More like perfectly messed-up.

1. "This is how it goes" by Aimee Mann is used to great effect in the S. 7 episode Sleeper. The song contains the line "So I try to hold on While you try to let go". . . Thinking of Buffy and Spike, particularly in season 7 (and beyond), who do you think is trying to 'hold on' and who do you think is 'trying to let go"? why?

I think Buffy is the one holding on and Spike is the one trying to let go. I think that post-soul Spike sees Buffy differently, in the sense that it's no longer about him, it's about her, and loving her selflessly no matter is she loves him back. He's trying to get over her because he believes she doesn't love him and never will. The simple act of loving her is enough. He doesn't need reciprocation. His love is pure and without agenda. She, though, is only starting to see that she loves him. Her hand-clasp and "I love you", to me, was her trying to hold on. I've said this before but I believe if he hadn't pulled away she'd have burned down in the Hellmouth with him.

2. Do you think James and Sarah's/Spike and Buffy's chemistry stands out in any season/episode, or is it equally potent in all of them?

Their chemistry was always terrific, but I especially like their scene in the kitchen in Gone. You could cut that chemistry with a knife.

3. Are there any benefits at all to Spike/Buffy in comic art over Spike/Buffy in live performances?

No, no comparison.

4. Do you think (comic artist) Georges Jeanty has a better handle on Buffy or on Spike?

Spike, certainly. His Buffy often looks girlish and her breasts are too big.

5. In a Spike/Buffy universe, who would you ship Spike and Buffy's other love interests (Dru, Angel, Riley, Satsu etc...) with, if anyone?

Dru: Angelus or Darla
Angel: Cordelia
Satsu: Kennedy?
Riley: Sam
Harmony: Hamilton

 

[Litheran]

Personally that quote from Jeanty infuriates me. I would rather not see Joss end up going the Dawson's Creek angle. The only way this makes sense is by accepting the the PTB are as hopeless at determining soul mates as they are at everything else.

It's a real pain in the ass when an artist can't accept that their "baby" has grownup and is no longer confined to the scope they see it in. If your gonna say two characters are soul-mates; back it up in the story/writing.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It's a real pain in the ass when an artist can't accept that their "baby" has grownup and is no longer confined to the scope they see it in. If your gonna say two characters are soul-mates; back it up in the story/writing.

God, don't say such things. If Buffy ends up with Angel in the end, if they are allowed to be together, I'll surely barf. And that's never good.

And really, what right does Jeanty have to comment on the story, anyway? He's not a writer. How much could be possibly know what's in store for Buffy's romantic future?

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Turns out, Mad_Brilliant made a vid of Jeanty's reply; she transcribed his reply verbatim:

http://users.livejournal.com/mad_brilliant_/52316.html?thread=1449820#t1449820

Sure, you can quote me. I went and looked at a couple of vids I took. Here's what he said:

"Just as a point of fact, Scott Allie the editor is so tormented by the Buffers, Spuffers, [is corrected] Spuffies and the Bangels, I should know the Bangels because I like the group. And he (Allie) said something that suggested he favored the Angel/Spike relationship. [Everyone laughs, because he meant Angel/Buffy.] OK, how many are the Bangels? [A few raise their hands.] How many are the Spuffers? Spuffies? [More raise their hands.] I had no idea that there was such a polar struggle with all this. And I get it that Angel is, for lack of a better word, the soulmate. Angel is Buffy's soulmate. Which we could argue and I'd agree to a point. Spike is probably the guy that...and it's funny because I actually asked Joss the same question. "Who would you go with? And what would they do?" And he has a way of making things very clear. And you're like, you just did a jedi mind trick, because I just understood exactly what you meant, and he just said it in two sentences. He [Joss] said that Angel was the soulmate. He was that thing that is unattainable. Because in all honesty...and don't get me wrong, I'm a romantic as much as anybody else, but how many of us fall in love with our soulmates and end up with them forever and ever. Again, we can argue that. OK. Spike is probably the guy who she would more than likely end up with, warts and all. Obviously he's not perfect. And while not trying to choose sides, I understood that Spike was probably a more realistic relationship with Buffy as opposed to Angel and Buffy, because you have more drama with that person who is the bad boy or the redemption or whatever you want to call it, than the soulmate, oh we're so great, let's do it and create a universe. So given that, it was a very conscious choice, that Joss said Spike is going to be in the Buffy series. And yeah, basically Spike is one of the main characters in the series. [Loud cheers.] I just finished issue 4, and he's been in every issue. [An audience member asked, "Clothed or unclothed?" There's laughter.] That's a good question. I don't think I've drawn him with his shirt off. Yet."

Later he's trying to suggest that Angel was the one who was always there for Buffy. (Kinda bizarre, because he really wasn't.) An audience member says that Spike is the one who is always at her doorstep, he always been there with a pat on her back whenever she's crying. He's never left to L.A.. And if he did, he always comes back. And he's her dark place. She can tell everything to him. Georges makes an "oh" noise like he disagrees with that. A Bangel says, "He tried to rape her." Another Bangel says, "Yeah, until he tried to rape her." Georges then says, "It's debatable whether he tried to rape her, which I don't think he did." Then he addresses the Spuffy fan who criticized Angel for leaving Buffy. He said that he'd agree with her to a certain degree if there wasn't a redemptive episode where Angel comes back after Buffy's mother dies and who is it that comes to her, and all he does is hold her hand. He (Georges) was reduced to tears when he saw that. He was like "You are so cool." Then the Spuffy fan brought up the ep when Spike saw Buffy's tears and patted her on the back. Georges agreed that was a good ep. He said there's an argument for both sides.

I hope she'll upload her vid.

 

[Litheran]

I would nudge on the concession that being the slayer gives Buffy a soul which is part human and part demon.

Angel being the counterpart to her human side; with Spike the demon side. That is not implying any good or bad to either because as we've seen in the 'verse; demon doesn't necessarily equal evil. Therefore either man is the yin to her yang; that's the way I'd be willing to accept it anyway.

 

[dexeded]

I frankly dislike all the talk of 'soulmates' and such. I personally don't believe in them, although Joss can twist the Buffyverse so there are indeed soulmates, like a pair of people the PTB set up to be together or be uber-compatible or whatever, but it just seems so cheap. Like, oh, Angel and Buffy belong together because they're SOULMATES. Like all their personality traits are specially coded to be compatible, and fate brings them together. Isn't it so much sweeter if there're two separate people, never intended to have been brought together, to just... click? Which is why I love Spuffy.

 

[Litheran]

See; I can accept it when Joss or the writers reference the intent for a certain scene or line; what they were going for. That is when I can accept the creator making a statement about the meaning of their art outside of the medium it's presented in. But if you have to issue some blanket statement with no reference or justification then your whole point is invalid.

I too would much rather Buffy be with the one she chooses; than the one chosen for her.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

All this talk of Angel being Buffy's soulmate is making me want to barf. I accept it; doesn't mean I have to like it.

I agree completely with Litheran. Buffy should choose who she wants to be with. She is not destiny's bitch like Angel. She can choose her own fate. And that includes love.

 

[Reddygirl]

1. "This is how it goes" by Aimee Mann is used to great effect in the S. 7 episode Sleeper. The song contains the line "So I try to hold on While you try to let go". . . Thinking of Buffy and Spike, particularly in season 7 (and beyond), who do you think is trying to 'hold on' and who do you think is 'trying to let go"? why?

I think they're both trying to hold on; they just have't decided how to do it. Spuffy is a work on progress. It's not "written in the stars", it's something that Buffy and Spike have to consciously decide to pursue.

2. Do you think James and Sarah's/Spike and Buffy's chemistry stands out in any season/episode, or is it equally potent in all of them?

Equally potent in all of them; what makes the chemistry between SMG and JM so amazing is that they can be funny, sexy, tender and angry together. Sometimes all in the same epi!

3. Are there any benefits at all to Spike/Buffy in comic art over Spike/Buffy in live performances?

Well, I'm new to the comic-book world. I didn't read comics until season 8 so I'm still hoping that eventually the comics will be on par with the series.

4. Do you think (comic artist) Georges Jeanty has a better handle on Buffy or on Spike?

Too early to judge for me. He hasn't drawn Spike long enough.

5. In a Spike/Buffy universe, who would you ship Spike and Buffy's other love interests (Dru, Angel, Riley, Satsu etc...) with, if anyone?

No one for Dru; she's too crazy. Though I'm not a fan of mindwipe, in Dru's case it would be a blessing. Then I'd make her human somehow and have her be a nun nursing sick children in Africa. Angel? Before the a & F series I would have said Darla but I'm open to Fangel if it is organic to the story. Riley is good with sam. Satsu? I'd put her with Kennedy.

As for Georges words about soul mates, as I said I don't think Buffy and Spike are written in the stars. Their fate is in their own hands.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Thanks for posting this, [MENTION=10218]Moscow Watcher[/MENTION]! Really interesting to hear what he had to say...

Because in all honesty...and don't get me wrong, I'm a romantic as much as anybody else, but how many of us fall in love with our soulmates and end up with them forever and ever. Again, we can argue that. OK. Spike is probably the guy who she would more than likely end up with, warts and all. Obviously he's not perfect.

What? How? What? After what Angel just did, last season, we're sitting around talking about how Spike isn't perfect? Well sure, he isn't, nobody is--but I'd say that at this point, in terms of who should be with Buffy AND who is the better vampire/person/whatever, Angel is definitely not it. So why are we putting Spike down? I mean this statement implies that Angel is better but she'll have to settle with Spike. With all that's happened...I just don't understand this.

because you have more drama with that person who is the bad boy or the redemption or whatever you want to call it, than the soulmate, oh we're so great.

I must have been hallucinating when I watched Buffy, then. At what point were Buffy and Angel ever at an "oh, we're so great" point?! It was always tears, drama, fighting, killing, more fighting, redemption-seeking. I mean, they never worked on the show. Angel knew it, Buffy knew it. Whether you want to believe that they would in the future or not is a separate thing, altogether. So, why do the writers think that they did? Please tell me, am I missing something?

Later he's trying to suggest that Angel was the one who was always there for Buffy. (Kinda bizarre, because he really wasn't.) An audience member says that Spike is the one who is always at her doorstep, he always been there with a pat on her back whenever she's crying. He's never left to L.A.. And if he did, he always comes back....Georges makes an "oh" noise like he disagrees with that.

He disagrees? With facts? Spike was literally always there for Buffy. He literally got a soul so that he continue being there for her without the possible interference of his inner demon. He constantly threw himself at Buffy's enemies in the hopes that he could somehow prevent them from hurting her, time after time. I mean, that's what happened. Did he watch the show? I have to wonder.

Sorry for the rant you guys! I was just really taken aback by all of that!

 

[xaphania]

[MENTION=10352]Chosen Enemy[/MENTION], today's your Seasonal Spuffy day! When do we get to see your Spuffy stuff? 😀

 

[Chosen Enemy]

[MENTION=10352]Chosen Enemy[/MENTION], today's your Seasonal Spuffy day! When do we get to see your Spuffy stuff? 😀

Few hours I suppose, not too many of them. It's a very busy week for me, that includes the Seasonal Spuffy stuff, so soon for sure. I can't wait to see your stuff, even though it's not that close. I guess for you it is, as you said you always wait for the last minute 😀

Oh, and I wanted to congratulate you for winning the header contest, the header you made sure is a winner!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Thanks for posting this, [MENTION=10218]Moscow Watcher[/MENTION]! Really interesting to hear what he had to say...



What? How? What? After what Angel just did, last season, we're sitting around talking about how Spike isn't perfect? Well sure, he isn't, nobody is--but I'd say that at this point, in terms of who should be with Buffy AND who is the better vampire/person/whatever, Angel is definitely not it. So why are we putting Spike down? I mean this statement implies that Angel is better but she'll have to settle with Spike. With all that's happened...I just don't understand this.

Angel is as far from perfect as one can get, I agree. No one is perfect in the 'verse, least of all Angel. That's the whole point. These are flawed characters. That's what makes them relatable.

I think the "warts" comment about Spike was was strange, as well. Is Georges insinuating that Spike is...ugly? Clearly, Georges knows nothing, because Buffy comments on several occasions how attractive Spike is. As do other characters. Spike is a very attractive character.

I must have been hallucinating when I watched Buffy, then. At what point were Buffy and Angel ever at an "oh, we're so great" point?! It was always tears, drama, fighting, killing, more fighting, redemption-seeking. I mean, they never worked on the show. Angel knew it, Buffy knew it. Whether you want to believe that they would in the future or not is a separate thing, altogether. So, why do the writers think that they did? Please tell me, am I missing something?

Absolutely agreed. Georges comments sound to me like someone who's been given the Cliff Notes on the series, but never actually watched it in its entirety.

He disagrees? With facts? Spike was literally always there for Buffy. He literally got a soul so that he continue being there for her without the possible interference of his inner demon. He constantly threw himself at Buffy's enemies in the hopes that he could somehow prevent them from hurting her, time after time. I mean, that's what happened. Did he watch the show? I have to wonder.

Sorry for the rant you guys! I was just really taken aback by all of that!

Exactly. While Spike stayed by her side, Angel left her. Simple as that.

Personally, I think this illustrates the danger of having the artists speaking on behalf of the story. The writers are the ones who should be speaking.

 

[Tranquillity]

Oh I hate all the soul mate crap too! How the hell did it creep into the fandom as some sort of gospel truth i'll never know - and yet every time Buffy and Angel win one of those mainstream media "best couple" polls it gets perpetuated a little more. And certain vocal Bangels (not on this board) have these unshakable beliefs that they spread everywhere at every opportunity and even though there is no foundation for them they say say stuff like 'Buffy always chooses Angel' ; 'it is circumstances keeping them apart'; "am i still your girl? Always"; and of course, the god-awful 'transcends everything' quote! If i read one more time about how Buffy and Angel will get to 'ride their wild horses one day'....

But i digress.

I honestly believe that Georges, not previously being a fan of the show prior to getting the illustration job has just gone along with what his friends said (pro-Bangel by all accounts) and on just knowing what he needed to know to draw season 8 which was not a whole lot about Spike and a whole lot about Angel. At the end of the day I don't really care for his opinions. He's entitled to them of course but it doesn't mean i have to agree with him. The only thing that makes this particular piece of information interesting is because he says that Joss said it. And if it is the case (which as i've said above, I could easily imagine being the case) I think that Joss would tell it in a way that wouldn't make it seem that Buffy was 'settling' for Spike - I mean he is the guy who gave us season 7. I trust him with our ship. I think.

 

[Reddygirl]

Georges is a real sweetie, I like him a lot; but he has no say in the direction of the comics.

Andrew Chambliss is the writer for 9 and he loves Spuffy; his last interview that was posted yesterday made that clear. And Joss interviewed and hired Andrew (who worked on Dollhouse). I think the fact that Joss selected someone who loves Spike and Spuffy as the writer for 9 hints at some good Spuffiness in 9, though I think it won't happen overtly until near the end of the season.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Andrew Chambliss is not only a Spuffy - he's also a huge fan of the show in general. He said that Buffy was one of the reasons he decided to become a television writer.

I ABSOLUTELY trust him with our ship. Joss? Not so much. Honestly, I think Joss always thought Spike and Buffy were an interesting experiment that was good for ratings, but I think he believes Buffy and Angel are the endgame. Otherwise, why else would be make them soulmates?

[MENTION=5871]Reddygirl[/MENTION], where is this interview with Chambliss? I'd like to see it.

 

[Tranquillity]

Did Joss make them soul mates or did the fans make them soul mates? I'm not sufficiently up with Bangle dialogue to know off the top of my head, but did the show ever use the phrase in relation to Buffy and Angel?

 

[white avenger]

Did Joss make them soul mates or did the fans make them soul mates? I'm not sufficiently up with Bangle dialogue to know off the top of my head, but did the show ever use the phrase in relation to Buffy and Angel?

I don't think that the term "soul mate" has ever been used on either show in reference to Buffy and Angel, but I have heard Joss use it on more than one occasion. What has to be remembered, however, is that the whole soul mate thing came up and was pretty much accepted before it was ever decided that Spike wold join the show on a regular basis, and it wasn't decided until later still that Spike and Buffy would ever have any kind of relationship beyond at best tentative friendship. Supposedly, Sarah came to Joss with the idea for a Spike/Buffy affair, and Joss wasn't really receptive to the idea until it became undeniable just how popular Spike had become., and how receptive so many of the fans would be to it happening.