I wouldn't mind making Buffy isolated and sad and pathetic... just don't trash the other characters to make it happen. It felt like a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old girl -you know, the type that bashes the Scoobies to show that Spike is the only one who cares about Buffy. I hate when writers use this stupid device to tell a story. It'll be more powerful to show how much Buffy trusts Spike without making the others look bad in comparison.
The original scene from Empty Places
- Thread starter sosa lola
- Start date
I wouldn't mind making Buffy isolated and sad and pathetic... just don't trash the other characters to make it happen. It felt like a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old girl -you know, the type that bashes the Scoobies to show that Spike is the only one who cares about Buffy. I hate when writers use this stupid device to tell a story. It'll be more powerful to show how much Buffy trusts Spike without making the others look bad in comparison.
clemsgirlfriend
Potential
I don't agree at all that this was what the Faith battle scene portrayed. First of all, they already showed that people died when following Buffy, so the Faith scene did not demonstrate that people die for doubting Buffy. It demonstrated that if you enter into an epic battle against the origin of all evil and its minions, people will end up dead, regardless of who is leading them. That is a realistic outcome and the only one that would have made any sense at all, given what they were all up against.
It showed that they kicked Buffy out because they were very understandably upset and scared about the deaths and injuries that had just occurred when Buffy led them into their first big group battle with the First minions, and felt comforted in thinking that if only they voted for a new leader, they would be safer going forward. It's an understandable reaction, but given what they were facing, people were going to end up dead regardless of who was leading the charge. Sad but true.
W
wehappyfew
clems a lucky man...er-
Fusions2
Stark Industries Employee
I prefer the original scene as much as I love the one that was aired this one would have added more reason to kick Buffy out especially the mention of Jenny's death and seeing Giles still obviously very upset by it.
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
Hmm. I think I would have rather seen this version aired. I mean, I still would have hated it, but it seems to...fit more. (Minus the Jenny reference. C'mon, Giles. That's just too low.) I really like Willow's "She's tired" comment. Seems much more Willowy, more sympathetic towards Buffy.
It made sense to me that the Scoobies and co. would be upset, confused, scared, and doubtful...but to totally tear into Buffy the way they did, that didn't make much sense. I think a few more sympathetic lines like Willow's in this one, or even lines from Giles that show this has been a building thing that's overwhelmed them, it would have been better.
It made sense to me that the Scoobies and co. would be upset, confused, scared, and doubtful...but to totally tear into Buffy the way they did, that didn't make much sense. I think a few more sympathetic lines like Willow's in this one, or even lines from Giles that show this has been a building thing that's overwhelmed them, it would have been better.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
I think Giles was correct in using Jenny.
He was showing a pattern of behaviour that goes back throughout Buffy's Slayerhood.
Could Buffy have saved Jenny.
Hell yes. If Buffy had killed Angel when she had the chance in the shopping mall, Jenny would still be alive.
Do I agree with what happens to Buffy in Empty Places, a WORLD of no, considering for most of the season we have Giles telling her to be a General and then the second she actually becomes one, he, and the rest, push her out, but that doesn't mean his analysis of the situation is flawed.
Fact is, I actually DO agree with Willow and Giles seems to too.
Buffy is tired, she needs to rest.
In war you don't often get the chance to rest, but the fact is she always carries the burden of the Slayer, but the one thing that made her different was that she had friends, she should have used them more.
Giles was being pissy because of the Spikeapade, but as I have stated in another thread, Buffy has not defeated a 'Big Bad' by herself ever (though she beat The Master, had Angel and Xander not been there, she would not have done so), she should have delegated more and allowed herself to rest. That would have given her a better grasp of what she needed to do, rather than simply send in the potentials and the scoobies to have a dig around to see what she could find.
I hate the one we got because it simply shows the scoobies attacking Buffy, but the above goes some way to justifying and understanding their POV.
He was showing a pattern of behaviour that goes back throughout Buffy's Slayerhood.
Could Buffy have saved Jenny.
Hell yes. If Buffy had killed Angel when she had the chance in the shopping mall, Jenny would still be alive.
Do I agree with what happens to Buffy in Empty Places, a WORLD of no, considering for most of the season we have Giles telling her to be a General and then the second she actually becomes one, he, and the rest, push her out, but that doesn't mean his analysis of the situation is flawed.
Fact is, I actually DO agree with Willow and Giles seems to too.
Buffy is tired, she needs to rest.
In war you don't often get the chance to rest, but the fact is she always carries the burden of the Slayer, but the one thing that made her different was that she had friends, she should have used them more.
Giles was being pissy because of the Spikeapade, but as I have stated in another thread, Buffy has not defeated a 'Big Bad' by herself ever (though she beat The Master, had Angel and Xander not been there, she would not have done so), she should have delegated more and allowed herself to rest. That would have given her a better grasp of what she needed to do, rather than simply send in the potentials and the scoobies to have a dig around to see what she could find.
I hate the one we got because it simply shows the scoobies attacking Buffy, but the above goes some way to justifying and understanding their POV.
Cohen
Hellhound
I agree. I've never had a problem watching that scene. It's always made sense. Even Dawn's "you have to leave".
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
Of course she could have.
We all could do a world of better things, if we could go back in time.
Buffy made an error in judgment. She knew that then. She felt a tremendous amount of guilt for what happened to Jenny. And, hey, it goes back even further than that. Buffy made an error in judgment in sleeping with Angel in the first place.
The Jenny line, IMO, would have been an incredibly low blow. We all know that Buffy's decision to have sex with Angel was a bad decision...but Giles, at the time, wasn't blaming her for that. He said as much in "Innocence." So for him to change his tune in "Empty Places would have been incredibly unfair..especially since, who could BLAME Buffy for not being able to kill the man who, mere episodes earlier, had been her boyfriend?
The remark fits. Buffy has been known to make errors in judgment. She's human, after all. The only difference is, her errors come with more devastating effects than the average person's. So although the Jenny remark makes sense, I still think it would have been extremely unfair for Giles to bring up right then.
sk
Thanks, I was just about to say pretty much exactly this.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Have a re-read of what you wrote.
You say that it was wrong of Giles to use this BUT Giles then argue that Buffy has made errors in judgement and thats fine, as long as we don't mention them.
The whole scene is the group questioning if this is a good idea based on Buffy's judgement.
Giles doesn't just say Jenny.
He starts because Buffy calls him on what he tried to do with Spike and what he did to Ben.
Spike, at the time, was a Vampire that at anytime could have been called upon by the First to kill everyone in the house.
Buffy was totally blinkered by her affection for Spike. I actually agree with what Giles tried to do, just not his method.
With Ben, Buffy SHOULD have killed him because Glory was still a threat, even if she was a diminished one.
But again, Buffy didn't so he had to do it to protect her.
Giles counter is perfectly right, even if his intention is incorrect.
She does act rashly, she does act alone, even when time and again she has shown that when she works with people the outcome is so much better - because the world is saved!
The problem with saying that Jenny was a low blow and then using 'well after it Giles said it was fine and not her problem' is that this was at the beginning of her relationship.
Over the years, Giles has seen that Buffy makes the same mistake, plays with other peoples lives in this manner.
Well, I thought the having to leave part may have been a bit much.. I mean.. the apocalypse was knocking on their door.. It just seems stupid to get rid of an active slayer. But the rest of the scene made perfect sense. I've seen such a situation play out many times.
Cohen
Hellhound
Well, no. Not if that active player isn't on board for what everyone else thinks is best. I've seen this a million times on the Apprentice. If one person is sitting there constantly arguing, it throws the whole team off and they lose. It made perfect sense that Dawn told her that "If you can't join us, you can't be with us." That's my interpretation at least.
Very much agreed. The entire anti-Buffy coup and its consequences is chock-full of illogical plot contrivances and gaping holes in character's motivation. And not just the motivation of the Scoobies but especially in that of Caleb and the First. No one but an absolute retard would try to lure Buffy and her gang into the very place where the only tool which can harm him is hidden. Now, if it has been established time and again that Caleb was living in that vineyard or spending much time there then Buffy could have had a point about the importance of the place. The entire plotline smells of desparate writing efforts aimed at making Buffy being right even when she shouldn't have been, and of course, also at emphasizing for the umpteenth time the "she can only trusts Spike" idea which had been shoved down the viewers' throats pretty much all season long.
The other major problem is that Buffy really should have known better. Her plan is actually counter-productive even considering Caleb's idiocy. She only got the scythe due to outrunning the guy, if everyone had gone to the vineyard, ther would have been a slaughter instead of take-a-scythe-and-run. She basically asks them to fight a guy who inexplicably let them go even though he was so much stronger than them so recently. It's like getting an invitation to visit a lion's cage after barely escaping with your life, in order to see if the lion is not hiding a pot of gold somewhere. The Scoobies were wrong in deposing their general after one (if quite big) failure. But the general was even more wrong in deciding to risk all those lives following a hunch, IMO. That's why I really don't like this episode. But if I am to pick a side in the argument, it would have been the side of the Scoobies, no doubt.
LOL! How can one not love Anya? 😉
I TOTALLY agree. The trouble is they were wrong. Sure, they can reject the slayer cause its not working with their 'group dynamic'...but their still lost without her. Just because the group rejects Buffy, doesnt mean the person they reject doesnt have what it takes to do what needs to be done.
All it means in this case is there is dissension in the ranks and that petty stuff gets in the way of Buffy being the true leader she can be. Time and time again we see her save the day, in fact, she even saves the day just an episode later from this because of Faith's mis-judgement...yet noone in the group can accept this.
Ok...
One final point....Faith was acting solely out of self interest. She wanted to prove herself. Seriously, watch the episode after this. Faith was irrational and jumped on the EASIEST plan available without properly thinking. She was a 'vague' leader. They needed a leader who understood the big picture and that was Buffy. Now, of course, everything worked out because the mighty Buffy was able to obtain the Sythe from the awesome Caleb...but holy crap was that a chance of luck.
Ill say it one final time, this is a matter of people who understand war, and those who are too nieve to comprehend it. The fact that people die in war is inevitable, and this harsh truth manifests iteself in every character in Empty Spaces to a despicable result. Those caught up in a perfect idea of war where the good side wins just cant imagine casualties.. but that DOES NOT make a bad leader...and that DOES NOT make a leader whos acting irrationally.
If you want proof of what im saying, if your dissagreeing with my point of view...ok...then that means you side with Faith...how exactly did that turn out? Oh yea.
Er, I am pretty sure Faith (and the others) put a lot more thought in her plan than Buffy into hers. And Buffy's plan in its original form wouldn't have worked either. Or in the very least it would have led to even more deaths. So I am not buying this "Buffy was in the end proven to be a better leader than Faith" (I mean, pre-Chosen).
Faith
Faiths plan consisted of a mention by a 'potential' mentioning communicating with a bringer. They capture a bringer and it leads them to a trap....
Buffy
Buffys plan consisted of understanding her opponent (the one-on-one Caleb scene in the school) and taking the 'giant' leap that Caleb is pretecting the 'source'.
Result
...Turns out Faith was wrong, Buffy was 100% right...what exactly are you arguing?
Again...
Buffy has for 6 and a half years managed to accurately propose an offensive against any enemy, even those about to kill her only blood-kin...yet in this situation people are perfectly willing to throw her to the wolves without even taking her thoughts (earlier seasons often started with her point of view followed by her friends suggestions/refinement...this is not the case...and it failed).
My opinion on why this is even an argument? People side with their favorite characters. In the same way that i see Buffy as the hero...everyone else see's their favoite character being vaild. I dare say you can argue till your face is blue, it doesnt take away from what Buffy has done and what she did to save 'The World' in the end of S7. Buffy turned out to be correct. Wheres the argument there?
There is no way in hell Buffy would have known Caleb was as dumb as he turned out to be. And to reiterate again, her plan would not have worked if the Scoobies and the Potentials had tagged along with her into the vineyard...which was pretty much what the plan was. Now, if she had said, "we are going to sneak into vineyard because if it isn't Caleb's lair I don't know where it might be, and you know, he is so strong, so we need to tread lightly" they probably wouldn't have unanimously refused to go along with it.
And just because she thought Caleb was trying to distract her from the school doesn't mean his lair must be the vineyard. And even if it was, it doesn't mean he was obliged to keep a helpful artifact in there. And after whole season of "Spike is our second best fighter", Buffy can't wait one night for him to return? How can I believe that Buffy is a good leader in this situation?
Well, at least they couldn't be sure it was a trap, unlike Buffy's plan which basically was "let's spring the deadly trap again and see what happens".
I am not sure about that. I can't stand Faith actually. But her plan was not worse than Buffy's plan for sure. But I certainly did not like how she took charge, she made Kennedy shut up, and voila, everyone is following her. Why not follow someone who has an actual experience of coming up with such plans? Like Giles, Willow or even Anya? They don't want to be led by Buffy just because she is a Slayer but end up being led by Faith...whose only credentials are Slayer stregth. Stupid doesn't even begin to describe. Led into battle by Faith? Sure. Letting Faith pick the plan? Quite a leap of faith, if you will excuse the pun.
And just because she thought Caleb was trying to distract her from the school doesn't mean his lair must be the vineyard. And even if it was, it doesn't mean he was obliged to keep a helpful artifact in there. And after whole season of "Spike is our second best fighter", Buffy can't wait one night for him to return? How can I believe that Buffy is a good leader in this situation?
Well, at least they couldn't be sure it was a trap, unlike Buffy's plan which basically was "let's spring the deadly trap again and see what happens".
I am not sure about that. I can't stand Faith actually. But her plan was not worse than Buffy's plan for sure. But I certainly did not like how she took charge, she made Kennedy shut up, and voila, everyone is following her. Why not follow someone who has an actual experience of coming up with such plans? Like Giles, Willow or even Anya? They don't want to be led by Buffy just because she is a Slayer but end up being led by Faith...whose only credentials are Slayer stregth. Stupid doesn't even begin to describe. Led into battle by Faith? Sure. Letting Faith pick the plan? Quite a leap of faith, if you will excuse the pun.
Actually Buffys plan was fairly on par with Faiths. Which tells me all i need know when you tell me Buffy was being reckelss yet somehow faith was in control.
Do a quick 'Silum' search of this thread as at this point, im not going to critique your post no matter how much i disagree.
One thing you do mention that is new is the certainty that following Buffys plan is wrong. Seeing as you now (presumably) know that the Sythe (the very essense of the Slayer power as we now know) is located exactly where Buffy says it is...how do you know what would transpire? You think Buffy defeating Caleb was a one off? That a massive force against the church wouldnt have been affective?
Ill make one point concerning this. When Buffy struck Caleb to retrive the sythe....there were NO defences against such an attack (ok 2, bringers at the entrance). How many bringers did Buffy face in that final fight...NONE! It was sheer luck that she made it unscathed without backup...if she went in with full support...it would have been 20 potentials+slayer against ONE man.
You can argue till your blue in the face but it honestly comes off as laughable the idea that Buffy after 7 years was suddenly clueless about fighting enemies... which is what your proposing
Btw, favoirte character doesnt mean faith. It means Fiath, giles, willow, Xander etc... all of which faced crazy trials in the final season...somehow that doesnt detract from the fact that buffy is the best leader among them, that she saw the big picture, that she saw the threat... and that when everyone turned against her, she was still able (despite all odds) to defeat that threat.
E
Edmund Blackadder
One thing about this board, if you say someone is saying something because they are following their favourite character, the auto-response is 'such and such isn't even my favourite character so you're wrong' - I've seen people do that often!
Whether or not she was on board, she was still the muscle of the group. Her and Faith. They should have been mature enough to work it out, rather than attack her one by one. BUT, like I said.. the situation.. how it turned.. was very understandable. Again, I've seen it happen many times before.
As far as I'm concerned, they were all wrong in some way. Buffy wanted to rush back into the hornet's nest while the girl's were still recovering from the last mission.. and Faith really didn't know what the hell to do. She even recognized this during the whole fight.. She is not a leader, nor wanted to be one.
It was just a bad situation that was painfully realistic. The pressure of the situation just turned -everyone- into poor thinking assholes.
Yes, Buffy had the right idea.. but the speed in which she was moving was way too much for everyone. They aren't super powered like her. They need time to recover..
Cohen
Hellhound
haha. I never said that they weren't wrong!
EDIT:
Spoils everything for what? And you DIDN'T like me? jackass. 🙂
I didnt join BB to have everyone agree with me... i may aswell have an argument in my head (crap...i do that anyway)....
And FYI, i hate everyone who disagrees with me. lol...though agree with me once and im a friend for life 😛