The original scene from Empty Places

[Kean]

ANYA
But we don't know, do we? We'll
never know. That you're actually
better. You came into the world with
certain advantages, sure, that's the
legacy.

BUFFY
I --

ANYA
But you didn't earn them. You didn't
work for them. You never had someone
come to you and say, Here, you
deserve these more than anyone else.
They were just... handed to you. And
that doesn't make you better than us.
It makes you luckier than us.

I have never loved Anya more than I have in this very freakin' moment.

Exactly what I had been thinking for years. Hot damn.

I know that was in the aired scene, but I had to quote that the bold the hell out of it. I. Love. Anya.

I see this quote the complete opposite way...in fact I think Anya is talking complete and utter shite.

How can Anya say after 7 years as a slayer, 7 apocolypses averted (soon to be 8), dying twice, coming back both times and continuing to slay that Buffy didn't deserve her position as Head Slayer? The woman literally went to Heaven and Hell for her cause and still she keeps on fighting.

"You never had someone come to you and say, Here, you deserve these more than anyone else".

Actually she has, she was 15 years old when Merrick walked up to her outside Hemery and changed he life forever. He told her that she was the one girl in the world that could stop the vampires and demons. She was chosen.

It seems like an incredibly stupid thing for Anya to say. Not every slayer is a leader, not every slayer can hack it but Buffy had proven time and again that she could do both.

Buffy had earned the right to be called The Slayer with blood, sweat and tears. To say she hadn't is ludicrous to me.

 

[Icarium]

Actually Buffys plan was fairly on par with Faiths. Which tells me all i need know when you tell me Buffy was being reckelss yet somehow faith was in control.

I didn't say Faith was in control. I said she and the rest spent more time on their plan than Buffy on hers. And I also said both plans were reckless, but Buffy's was borderline suicidal. Yet by the power of plot contrivance, Buffy's plan worked while Faith's backfired. It had nothing to do with who was more competent.

It was sheer luck that she made it unscathed without backup...if she went in with full support...it would have been 20 potentials+slayer against ONE man.

One man who was pretty much invincible for all they knew at that point. It was a miracle he let them go the first time without killing them all. What does the number of bringers have to do with anything? The one who did the damage the first tiem they went to the vineyard was Caleb. I really, really don't see how Buffy's "skip past Caleb, take the Scythe and get the hell out" mission would have unfolded better if she had brought everyone along and gifted Caleb with as many hostages and victims and he would have wanted.

You can argue till your blue in the face but it honestly comes off as laughable the idea that Buffy after 7 years was suddenly clueless about fighting enemies... which is what your proposing

It is laughable to an extent, true, but it happened. That's exactly why I didn't like it. I couldn't care less how experienced Buffy is supposed to be, her plan was stupid and based on nothing but a hunch, period. And anyway, it's one thing to discuss whether it was in character for Buffy to come up with such a plan and quite another to discuss the merits of the plan on its own. Plus, this wasn't the first time Buffy had behaved recklessly and illogically in season 7. She kept Spike around for months, even though she knew about the trigger. If the FE had any brains whatsoever, he would have commanded Spike to kill them all while they were sleeping.

 

[Mesektet Ra]

I see this quote the complete opposite way...in fact I think Anya is talking complete and utter shite.

How can Anya say after 7 years as a slayer, 7 apocolypses averted (soon to be 8), dying twice, coming back both times and continuing to slay that Buffy didn't deserve her position as Head Slayer? The woman literally went to Heaven and Hell for her cause and still she keeps on fighting.


Actually she has, she was 15 years old when Merrick walked up to her outside Hemery and changed he life forever. He told her that she was the one girl in the world that could stop the vampires and demons. She was chosen.

It seems like an incredibly stupid thing for Anya to say. Not every slayer is a leader, not every slayer can hack it but Buffy had proven time and again that she could do both.

Buffy had earned the right to be called The Slayer with blood, sweat and tears. To say she hadn't is ludicrous to me.

Yea, but how did she get the powers in the first place? What she did with them is a different story. She wasn't Chosen because of all the good she was going to do with the job - the past Slayers and all that have pretty much proven the choosing is random and that some girls are better for the job than others. Buffy was lucky to be called - she did nothing before being called to prove that she deserved the powers she got, they were handed to her. The same thing could be said about Faith.

For Buffy to act as though she is better than everyone else because she got handed powers is as ludicrous to me as it is for you to hear anyone else say she didn't deserve it. In the beginning, she didn't do anything to deserve being Chosen. It was happenstance.

 

[Kean]

Yea, but how did she get the powers in the first place? What she did with them is a different story. She wasn't Chosen because of all the good she was going to do with the job - the past Slayers and all that have pretty much proven the choosing is random and that some girls are better for the job than others. Buffy was lucky to be called - she did nothing before being called to prove that she deserved the powers she got, they were handed to her.

But did any other Slayer do anything before they were called to merit them being Chosen? It was what you do with the power that deems you worthy of it or not.

Also, I don't think it is totally random thing. If it was then all girls would have been made slayers when Willow harnessed the essence of the sythe. There is clearly something special about certain girls, something that they have that makes them right for the job. That just gets you the gig, it's what you do with it that decides whether you keep it.

Also, lucky isn't exactly a term I would use to describe being called. You don't live happily ever after when you are the slayer. Being chosen to fight the good fight has nothing to do with luck.

Being a good person has nothing to do with being a slayer or a champion for that matter. Look what Spike and Angel did in their past? Yet they both a Champions for the powers because they were recognised as having something special within them, something to offer the fight.

What Buffy did with her powers has everything to do with whether she was worthy of the title slayer or not.

 

[Silum]

I didn't say Faith was in control. I said she and the rest spent more time on their plan than Buffy on hers. And I also said both plans were reckless, but Buffy's was borderline suicidal. Yet by the power of plot contrivance, Buffy's plan worked while Faith's backfired. It had nothing to do with who was more competent.

What episode were you watching with all this 'planning?'

It was a lowly pimple faced potential who suggested going after a mute Bringer, which led them to the trap. Faith didnt plan anything, she attacked the easiest target she saw and devestating results ensued.

Buffy, with 7 years of fighting knew exactly what was up, cause hey, 7 years of fighting kinda makes you intuitive.

I really, really don't see how Buffy's "skip past Caleb, take the Scythe and get the hell out" mission would have unfolded better if she had brought everyone along and gifted Caleb with as many hostages and victims and he would have wanted.

Maybe you didnt hear me the first time, but how do you know what Buffys plan would have been? Buffys a smart chick, she could easily have concocted a plan that utilises the useless potentials and still done her matrix dodge-a-thon to get the sythe. We never saw any of that, what we did see is a slayer who intuitively knew how to fight demons and one psycho slayer just released from prison with less than a dozen demons under her belt.

She kept Spike around for months, even though she knew about the trigger. If the FE had any brains whatsoever, he would have commanded Spike to kill them all while they were sleeping.

You are right though, turns out Buffy didn't need all those potentials to get things done...turns out she needed the strength given to her by that useless old Spike...what did he do in the final battle again? ...I always forget.

Again, Buffy's intuitive, she's not gonna kill a champion warrior, shes gonna find a way to fix said champion warrior...who she loves. ...lol....if only she had brains to kill the hero who she loves...if only.

 

[white avenger]

(Okay, here we go again...)

Even though Buffy was ultimately proved right in her assessment that there actually was something at the vineyard that was important to her cause, and even though their actions were directly responsible for probably the greatest Buffy/Spike scenes in the entire series, there can be no doubt in my mind that this scene was about nothing more or less than mutiny and betrayal. Whether they might have liked the fact or not, whether they considered themselves volunteers or draftees, the Potentials were soldiers, and Buffy was their commanding officer. To disobey her legal orders is mutiny. And, whether they believed that Buffy's plan was a mistake or not, the Scoobies should have expressed their doubts, voiced their arguments, and proposed whatever alternate strategies they had to offer in a private session, not in front of the others. Openly opposing Buffy in front of the Potentials was betrayal of a person who they all owed their very lives to on more than one occasion, and whose judgment they should have by that time come to trust.

Fighting the First Evil and its minions was a war. The Scoobies and the Potentials were an army, however reluctant they might have been to admit that fact. Buffy was their recognized commanding officer. Soldiers don't get to vote on the battles they have to fight.

 

[Icarium]

You are seeing things from some weird perspective of "things worked out in the end" and "Buffy is intuitive" while I am talking about completely different things. Yes, things worked out in the end...but only because of "amulet ex machina" and the incredible retardedness of the first evil and Caleb. Two things Buffy or anyone else had no way of knowing at the time of Empty Places. So excuse me for not heaping praise on Buffy for being saved by her enemies' utter stupidity and Angel arriving in the nick of time. Things worked out in the end of Season 5 too (sort of) but that doesn't make Willow's attack on Glory in Tough Love any less suicidal. Same for Giles's attack on Angelus in Passion. Do you think their plans were commendable, too?

Buffy, with 7 years of fighting knew exactly what was up, cause hey, 7 years of fighting kinda makes you intuitive.

So due to her experience she can't make mistakes now? She has experience fighting, not leading. The Scoobies are not the Initiative and Buffy was nobody's general until the potentials arrived and Giles basically made her one.

Again, Buffy's intuitive, she's not gonna kill a champion warrior, shes gonna find a way to fix said champion warrior...who she loves. ...lol....if only she had brains to kill the hero who she loves...if only.

Sarcasm can't hide your luck of arguments. I am not saying Buffy should have dusted Spike when she learned about the trigger, I am saying she should have kept him away until they deactivated it. It's absolutely irrensponsible to give shelter to someone who can turn into a vicious killer whenever the First feels like it. Why not simply invite him the house when needed and then revoke the invitation or better yet revoke it and speak with him someplace else when she needed him? But who cares about posible victims, she needed to have "the only person who she can trust" around her as much as possible and risk be damned. Never mind that Spike has betrayed her many times more than Giles, Willow and Xander combined and was an unrepetant mass murderer. Am I the only one who thinks that her trust in only Spike was a major factor leading to the Scooby coup agaisnt her?

Maybe you didnt hear me the first time, but how do you know what Buffys plan would have been? Buffys a smart chick, she could easily have concocted a plan that utilises the useless potentials and still done her matrix dodge-a-thon to get the sythe.

We never saw it because Buffy was too petty to wait for Spike and Andrew to return or think about a better plan. Yes, she could have come up with a plan of going past Caleb...but Faith's plan could have worked too. The most important thing is that Buffy's plan is based on a ridiculously flawed premise - that the vineyard is important for Caleb and is not just some random place he used for a trap. Of course, it turns out that Buffy won the lottery and the vineyard was vital. You can call that intuition, I call it bad writing.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I didn't say Faith was in control. I said she and the rest spent more time on their plan than Buffy on hers. And I also said both plans were reckless, but Buffy's was borderline suicidal. Yet by the power of plot contrivance, Buffy's plan worked while Faith's backfired. It had nothing to do with who was more competent.

Thats absolute rubbish.
Buffy was able to use her reasoning from time as being The Slayer to understand that the bad guys are where the power is competely true.
The bad guys will always be where it is the best for them that will provide them the power and the cover.

The Seal would be the ideal place, especially as the corridors were constantly changing and they would be at the one place they had access to the entire army.
Instead they chose an out of the way vineyard.

Your argument that there were plot contrivances is asolutely balderdash because we get a justifiable reason from Buffy and we see that Caleb spends a few episodes in that place.

Had we JUST seen the Vineyard in one episode and Buffy say 'Oh, yeah, its like whatever but I'm sure theres like this reason they are there and we should, you know, like totally attack' I would be with you but its not.
You've totally missed what happened there.

 

[Silum]

Do you think their plans were commendable, too?

No.

So due to her experience she can't make mistakes now?

No.

Sarcasm can't hide your luck of arguments.

Dont reply if theres nothing to reply to.

Am I the only one who thinks that her trust in only Spike was a major factor leading to the Scooby coup agaisnt her?

No.

I call it bad writing.

Agreed, but it appears, for completely different reasons.

 

[Icarium]

Your argument that there were plot contrivances is asolutely balderdash because we get a justifiable reason from Buffy and we see that Caleb spends a few episodes in that place.

We see (and it happens after Empty Places anyway). Buffy doesn't. The only thing she knows about that vineyard is that Caleb had prepared a trap for her in there.

Buffy was able to use her reasoning from time as being The Slayer to understand that the bad guys are where the power is competely true.
The bad guys will always be where it is the best for them that will provide them the power and the cover.

Yes, if the bad guys are morons, who can't be bothered to make ambushes some place else other than the one place they need to keep the Slayer away from. Had it been established that Caleb was only strong in that vineyard or near the seal, things would have been different but for all we (and what's more important Buffy) knew he was nigh on invincible everywhere, so this "the vineyard must be important for him because we met him there once" was nothing but a hunch.

 

[Silum]

Btw, Icarium, if you havn't already, you might like this thread:

The episode pisses me off... - Buffy-Boards

Yes, if the bad guys are morons, who can't be bothered to make ambushes some place else other than the one place they need to keep the Slayer away from.

Do you suggest Caleb leave the vineyard open? Leave the source of slayer strength free for visitation? Im struggling to see what your saying.

Remember, they knew of the vineyard before they knew of Caleb. No caleb means they would have got what they came for.

was nothing but a hunch.

Now your getting it!

 

[Tsquared]

My opinion on why this is even an argument? People side with their favorite characters.

I agree, and this is why Empty Places has and will always be my favorite episode of the series. I love seeing the shift of power between Buffy and Faith, not just the other slayer, even though the situation may not be justifiable in everyone's eyes. If I didn't favor Faith as much as I do, I would probably in not a scrap of doubt, be siding with Buffy and hating this episode to my deathbed. To me, this episode is like Faith's episode. Even if it was at Buffy's expense, she got trust from all the Scoobies and what surprised me the most was with Giles.. and they had a tiny connection slash relationship going there for a while. Awesome.

But! Back to the topic of the thread. I definitely prefer the original way the episode was scripted.. sure, this version adds more explanation behind the rash decision they all made. Tho, in my eyes, it lessens the impact.

 

[Icarium]

Interesting, I had remembered things wrongly actually. I thought Caleb had told them he would be in the vineyard but now that I checked Buffy and Faith just happened to see some Harbringers entering it. Just when I thought the First and Caleb couldn't be dumber... Actually this doesn't change things much, Buffy says Caleb was protecting something at the vineyard while she had no way of knowing that. they thought it was a trap before going there the first time, it turned out to be a trap, yet Buffy is sure it was not just a trap because...just because.

Do you suggest Caleb leave the vineyard open? Leave the source of slayer strength free for visitation?

Yes, of course. He could and should have sprung his trap in any other place. Now, after their first visit it makes sense for him to be there but it doesn't make sense for Buffy to be sure this isn't a random place picked solely for ambush purposes.

 

[Silum]

Buffy says Caleb was protecting something at the vineyard while she had no way of knowing that. they thought it was a trap before going there the first time, it turned out to be a trap, yet Buffy is sure it was not just a trap because...just because.

If we reject the fact that Buffys been doing this for a long time now and that she's fought off every other force successfully.

Take the master, how could she have known she wouln't be paralized a 2nd time (remember on the roof top? and she pretended to be under his control)

Take The mayor -how did buffy know he was gonna be slow enough to run away from so that she could lure him into the library

Or any demon for that matter. She has the ability to defeat demons and come up with awesome sometimes missile related plans and this seems to be what you have trouble agreeing to. Buffy has the RIGHT to come up with a plan 'just because'. The reason for the dissension primarily stemmed from loss of life in the vineyard. Which you either accept as collatoral damage of war...or you moan about it and tell buffy her 7 years of fighting means nothing

 

[white avenger]

Buffy was nobody's general until the potentials arrived and Giles basically made her one.

Buffy was always the leader of the Scoobies. Even from the first, she rarely accepted more than suggestions from Giles, and rarely even that. Giles himself told her on more than one occasion, mostly after Season 3, that she no longer needed him to tell her what to do, that she had the skill and the knowledge to get the job done. He never MADE Buffy a general, or leader, he simply forced her to admit that she always had been one.

And, incidentally, generals are rarely elected, they earn the right to command, just as Buffy had done, through experience and ability. But even in those rare cases when generals are elected, the bottom line is that they ARE generals, and therefore the ones in command. Once that fact is determined, nothing else really matters in this argument. Buffy says "Jump," and the only response from her troops should be "How high," or even better, "How high, MA'AM?" Everyone there knew or should have known that the fate of the world was at stake there. Compared to that, their lives mattered only to the point that they could be utilized in that fight. Harsh? Yes. That's why it's called war and not knitting.

And as for choosing to not keeping Spike separate from the others because of his potential danger as an instrument of the First Evil, that falls under the heading of "Making A Command Decision." It's one of those things that generals do. It had been illustrated, quite painfully to Spike, that the First Evil most definitely did have plans for him, and Buffy chose to keep him basically under her protection rather than give the Bringers and Caleb a second chance to get him.

 

[Icarium]

Yes, Buffy was always the leader but she didn't usually tell the Scoobies "you are coming with me whether you want it or not, if you don't want to come you are not allowed to be around me anymore". They tended to help on their own volition. This is quite different from the way armies work - in an army you usually can't say "Sorry guys, I don't like this plan, see you tomorrow. If you are still alive. Have fun.". Also, a leader who says she can't trust her "troops" can't expect anything better in return.
Let's go through the events again - Buffy is dead tired but yet she decides they need to act immediately, for no particular reason other than her hunch. She decides not to wait for Spike and Andrew...I don't even know why, for all she knew they might have returned with info about Caleb's Achiles Heal and she never tired of repeating "Spike is our second strongest fighter". She calls her best friends untrustworthy. She can't spare a few minutes to stand by Xander's hospital bed. Her position as a general in the eyes of the potentials is based on her Slayer stregth, not planning abilities and now there is another Slayer around. Of course her "troops" are going to mutiny!

If we reject the fact that Buffys been doing this for a long time now and that she's fought off every other force successfully.

She didn't do just by relying on her hunches, you know. the whole premise of the show is that the Scoobies friendship and teamwork saved the day again and again. So maybe she should have recognized that her friends might have some point and are not doing that just because they can't stand her precious Spikey or have suddenly fallen in love with Faith. The plan that defeated Adam wasn't Buffy's, she overcame Angelus only through the help of Spike and following Spike's plan, she couldn't have knocked out Glory without Anya thinking of the hammer of Olaf and the sphere of Dagon, etc. So yes, she fought off everyone by relying on sometimes intuiotion but primarily on well crafted plans and help from the people (and vampires) around her. Not by coming up with some half-assed excuse of a plan and then declaring people should fall in line and no other plans are to be even discussed.

And as for choosing to not keeping Spike separate from the others because of his potential danger as an instrument of the First Evil, that falls under the heading of "Making A Command Decision." It's one of those things that generals do. It had been illustrated, quite painfully to Spike, that the First Evil most definitely did have plans for him, and Buffy chose to keep him basically under her protection rather than give the Bringers and Caleb a second chance to get him.

She could have kept him chained 24/7, you know. And she spent a lot of time in the school anyway. And most importantly, the safety of her frinds should be way more important than Spike's safety - even we forget friendship Willow is potentially way more powerful than Spike, so better tool for General Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

Yes, Buffy was always the leader but she didn't usually tell the Scoobies "you are coming with me whether you want it or not, if you don't want to come you are not allowed to be around me anymore". They tended to help on their own volition. This is quite different from the way armies work - in an army you usually can't say "Sorry guys, I don't like this plan, see you tomorrow. If you are still alive. Have fun.". Also, a leader who says she can't trust her "troops" can't expect anything better in return.
Let's go through the events again - Buffy is dead tired but yet she decides they need to act immediately, for no particular reason other than her hunch. She decides not to wait for Spike and Andrew...I don't even know why, for all she knew they might have returned with info about Caleb's Achiles Heal and she never tired of repeating "Spike is our second strongest fighter". She calls her best friends untrustworthy. She can't spare a few minutes to stand by Xander's hospital bed. Her position as a general in the eyes of the potentials is based on her Slayer stregth, not planning abilities and now there is another Slayer around. Of course her "troops" are going to mutiny!



She didn't do just by relying on her hunches, you know. the whole premise of the show is that the Scoobies friendship and teamwork saved the day again and again. So maybe she should have recognized that her friends might have some point and are not doing that just because they can't stand her precious Spikey or have suddenly fallen in love with Faith. The plan that defeated Adam wasn't Buffy's, she overcame Angelus only through the help of Spike and following Spike's plan, she couldn't have knocked out Glory without Anya thinking of the hammer of Olaf and the sphere of Dagon, etc. So yes, she fought off everyone by relying on sometimes intuiotion but primarily on well crafted plans and help from the people (and vampires) around her. Not by coming up with some half-assed excuse of a plan and then declaring people should fall in line and no other plans are to be even discussed.



She could have kept him chained 24/7, you know. And she spent a lot of time in the school anyway. And most importantly, the safety of her frinds should be way more important than Spike's safety - even we forget friendship Willow is potentially way more powerful than Spike, so better tool for General Buffy.

Well, we at least agree that Buffy was always the leader. That's a beginning. And, no, she never had laid down any "my way or the highway" ultimatums, and she even went so far as to bail out whichever one had so stupidly jeopardized the entire war by giving in to their emotions rather than acting sensibly. Remember Giles with his flaming baseball bat in Season 2? Or Willow and her bag of knives in Season 5? Buffy

And being "dead tired" doesn't figure into the equation at all. Sure, she was tired. She was also probably sore, hungry, dirty, and she might have even had an ingrown toenail. None of those things altered the fact that they were fighting a war, the enemy was at the point of establishing a position of superiority, and action was required RIGHT THEN. Buffy said that she was willing to discuss plans, to strategize as much as time permitted, but time was of the essence, and a lot of idle conversation and bitching from the troops wasn't going to get the job done.

And Spike, precious to her or not, was undoubtedly, even with Faith there, the greatest and most experienced fighter at her disposal. He was worth the entire gaggle of Potentials combined, and you could toss in the Scoobies as well. That made having him there a risk worth taking. (Willow, by the way, was not, and never had been a greater fighter than Spike, or probably even Rona, for that matter, broken arm and all. You might have noticed that "all powerful Willow" only participated indirectly in any actual fight. She put up a barrier against the Turok Hahn, but couldn't maintain it. Granted, she activated all of the Potentials, but one single Bringer could have stopped her from doing even that much if Kennedy hadn't been there to protect her. The reason Buffy didn't take her to the vineyard in the first place was that magic is no good in a stand up fight. Before she could have gotten an enchantment halfway verbalized, Caleb would have twisted her head off)

In defeating Glory, Angelus, Adam, and even Dark Willow, Buffy most certainly did have the support and help of her friends, and that was all that she was asking in "Empty Places." If she had gotten as little support and backup fighting any one of those former Big Bads, they wouldn't have been in the position that they were in against the First Evil, because that previous Big Bad would have killed Buffy and taken over the world.

But the others "fell into line" all of those other times.

 

[Icarium]

action was required RIGHT THEN

Says who? Buffy still spent the night moping (not to mention evicting a man from his house). It's not as if she acted on her own plan ASAP or it was certain they had to move immediately. What was required was a plan, not just details on Buffy's plan. Since they couldn't be sure that they didn't have time, why not take the time to come up with a plan when Buffy is not dead tired and half crazy with guilt for Xander and those potentials? How come Giles's plan in Season 2 is bad because it was rushed and he was bailed by Buffy but Buffy's plan in Season 7 is not, never mind it was rushed and she was bailed by Angel?

The reason Buffy didn't take her to the vineyard in the first place was that magic is no good in a stand up fight.

I do recall Dark Willow kicking Buffy's ass, maybe it's just my imagination. Dark magic aside, the good guys won in Chosen due to...was it a magical artifact and...I don't know...was it a spell? Spike gets more important only if Buffy is a prophet and knows some magical artifact that only vampire can use will be the key. And of course, a triggered Spike could have easily killed Buffy herself, had the First had the actual brain to command him to attack her in her sleep and leave no army in which Spike to be second strongest in. Anyway, the more important thing is that this "leader" left free in her house someone who could go on a killing spree whenever the FE wanted him to. In other words, she wasn't trusting Spike (who as annoying as he had become (IMO) had proven he could be trusted), she was trusting her arch enemy with her life and the lives of all of her friends!

But the others "fell into line" all of those other times.

I am not sure about that. Giles killed Ben, despite Buffy refusing to do it. Xander didn't mention to her that Willow would be trying to give back to Angel his soul. Xander and Angel followed her in Prophecy Girl without her commanding them to do so. The plan for the disposal of Adam was Giles's. It's not as if every time she came up with her won plan and she was right while they were wrong, is it?

 

[Silum]

How come Giles's plan in Season 2 is bad because it was rushed and he was bailed by Buffy but Buffy's plan in Season 7 is not, never mind it was rushed and she was bailed by Angel?

You seem to be digging yourself into a hole where you cant agree with anyone.

Giles...you think it was a bad plan because it was rushed? Um, i think its a bad plan because he went against the 3 worst vampires in history with a baseball bat...he could take a year to establish this mastermind of a plan for all i care.

the good guys won in Chosen due to...was it a magical artifact and...I don't know...was it a spell?

They won the final battle SOLELY because of what happened to Spike and his sacrifice. You think those (million shall we say? maybe just 100,000) tourakans wouldnt have gotten the best of 30 slayers? Willow is powerful, and id say more powerful than Spike without a doubt but her power is limited. Maybe less so in S8 where she seems to freely uses magic without going dark but thats a writers decision.

a triggered Spike could have easily killed Buffy herself

Well we both know that thats not an issue in the final fight. Buffy showed if anything that she saw the big picture (she says this to Giles as you know) more than others such as Giles who wanted Spike killed. Killing an ally is foolish when your going into war and Buffy's reasons for keeping him was to 'fix' him and then utilise him.

Maybe you just have a problem with Buffy being in charge?

Anyway....Silum OUT

 

[Enuf3]

They won the final battle SOLELY because of what happened to Spike and his sacrifice. You think those (million shall we say? maybe just 100,000) tourakans wouldnt have gotten the best of 30 slayers? Willow is powerful, and id say more powerful than Spike without a doubt but her power is limited. Maybe less so in S8 where she seems to freely uses magic without going dark but thats a writers decision.

Yeah. Buffy basically led them to their doom. And I think she kinda knew that. All Willow's spell did was give these pathetic girls a chance to survive a little longer... And most of them died anyway.