The War has Begun! - Are You Ready to Rumble?

[Eleftheria]

I like the fact that you express different and so interesting opinions.It is a different point of view and I respect it. 🙂

However, when talking about Something Blue...this is supposed to be a spell going wrong. A joke. So I don't take Buffy's response or Spike's seriously. If Xander/Angel/Riley/Parker /any other, was in Spike's position she would still feel super happy and loving about her marriage! I don't think that shows love between Spike and Buffy at that moment or deep bond.


And about solid points. 🙂 I don't take season 8 seriously, but I guess that is completely personal so i am not gonna argue. And Connor being Angel's love...of course that is the ultimate love that a father can have for his son(who was unexpected in Angel's life). Love for Buffy or Cordy can not be compared to love for a son of course. I see those loves as different kind.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Wow, are you anti-Spike. Alright, I'm going to try here, even though I know it won't do any good! =P

I feel something when I watch Bangel, so there's no need to feel sorry for me. They are first love. Beautiful, pure, dependent and aching--they're everything first love should be. But the thing about first love is that it ends. It always ends, and it leaves you always loving that person. They're special to you, they always will be, but it's in a romantic, idealistic kind of way. The love is always there, but it's in the past. They grew into such different people after that, and I just don't see them being able to meet and be on the same plane again.

It seems like you very willfully ignore everything about Spuffy, just because you seem to think it takes away from Bangel. There were beautiful moments there! Moments that warmed my heart and made me feel hopeful. And yes, those were Spuffy moments. "Every night I save you," "You're the one, Buffy," "I'd die, her being in that much pain," etc, etc, etc. There's love there, especially in Season 7! Accept it. =P

I'm not anti - Spike. I'm anit - Spuffy. I like Spike, mostly when he's big bad. Ah, first love again. My father was my mother's first love and other way, and they are still happily married, so are you sure it always finish? I don't belive in first love. He wasn't her first love. I'm sure she had a lot of loves before him. He was her first REAL love. And you know, that kind of love doesn't have to end. I kinda, in one way, maybe, belive she loved Spike. But like she said in Chosen, she doesn't see her with him in the future. But she said that she does with Angel. That's kinda point of whole cookie analogy.

 

[ubi4soft]

That's kinda point of whole cookie analogy.

TVGO: Now that Buffy is free to do whatever she likes, how will you explain why she doesn't make a beeline for Angel?

Whedon: Well, I think I did in the episode. She said very specifically she doesn't want to go and find a boyfriend. She wants to go and find herself — spend some time becoming a grown-up and finding out who she is, and then she can stop to find out who fits with that. That was the point of the whole cookie dough speech. Her internal search isn't for a boyfriend, it's for herself. And then if true love fits into that, that would be the best thing ever. But if she instantly went off and attached herself to Angel, she'd be throwing away everything she'd just been given, which is her freedom. It would be the last thing she would do. Well, not the last thing. She wouldn't do it until sweeps.

The cookie dough was then and always will be a "I don't know if I'll ever be with you or anyone else" speech. Buffy was non-committal to Angel.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

Kean agrees: Way I read what Joss said there is that if she ever does get the chance for true love she will be given Angel a call.

In the way that Forever has transcended to IF EVER. (and that's for both vampires, as far as we know Buffy doesn't know that Spike's alive/undead/whatever)

---------- Post added at 12:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 AM ----------

I'm not anti - Spike. I'm anit - Spuffy.

It would be easier if you'd be pro-Bangel

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

TVGO: Now that Buffy is free to do whatever she likes, how will you explain why she doesn't make a beeline for Angel?

Whedon: Well, I think I did in the episode. She said very specifically she doesn't want to go and find a boyfriend. She wants to go and find herself "” spend some time becoming a grown-up and finding out who she is, and then she can stop to find out who fits with that. That was the point of the whole cookie dough speech. Her internal search isn't for a boyfriend, it's for herself. And then if true love fits into that, that would be the best thing ever. But if she instantly went off and attached herself to Angel, she'd be throwing away everything she'd just been given, which is her freedom. It would be the last thing she would do. Well, not the last thing. She wouldn't do it until sweeps.

The cookie dough was then and always will be a "I don't know if I'll ever be with you or anyone else" speech. Buffy was non-committal to Angel.

I agree with Joss. I also think it would be best for Buffy to go and find herself. I love that show mainly because of her. Not because of her relathionship with Angel or someone else, I'm watching it because of her - because she is the person who is my hero, my role model, well if we loose season 6, that was too creepy even for little me kinky.

And then if true love fits into that, that would be the best thing ever.

- True love? For me that is reference for Angel. But I agree, first she has to find herself, and then I belive she is going to make room for someone special, Angel I hope. Because that kind of person she is, I think. She needs someone to fullfil her.

 

[Kelsey]

I'm not anti - Spike. I'm anit - Spuffy. I like Spike, mostly when he's big bad. Ah, first love again. My father was my mother's first love and other way, and they are still happily married, so are you sure it always finish? I don't belive in first love. He wasn't her first love. I'm sure she had a lot of loves before him. He was her first REAL love. And you know, that kind of love doesn't have to end. I kinda, in one way, maybe, belive she loved Spike. But like she said in Chosen, she doesn't see her with him in the future. But she said that she does with Angel. That's kinda point of whole cookie analogy.

Hah, I have a feeling we could debate until the end of time and never get anywhere, friend!

That's wonderful about your parents, but I don't think it generally works that way. And Bangel, in my opinion, was the type of love that was meant to end. You obviously don't agree and won't ever. That's cool! But my mind's not changing anytime soon.

And the cookie analogy had nothing to do with Angel or Spike, in my opinion. There certainly wasn't any inclination toward Angel! I think it meant exactly what it said--she needed to finish baking before she could decide who was right for her. I can accept if one day she does choose someone, and that someone isn't Spike. He's always been the underdog! I feel like a lot of Bangels (not all, mind you!) get threatened sometimes because they always felt like eventually Angel and Buffy would find their way back to each other, but then this Spike character unexpectedly got in the middle of that. And I think a lot of them know, deep down, that Season 7 was not just friendship. 😉

 

[iDarthRosenberg]

Anyone ever think she was meant to be alone? and that dating distracts from her calling? or is everyone too concerned with some sappy love story

 

[Kelsey]

.... Too concerned with some sappy love story.

 

[ubi4soft]

Halo S/B

Buffy POV - darla production (one of the best spuffy vidders)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUGvzHhoYk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUUGvzHhoYk[/ame]

 

[Karol]

Yay we´re winning \o/

 

[Nix]

I personally fall on the side of Bangel. However, I believe that over all the seasons you can't have one without the other. Buffy's experiences with both lead her to react differently with both Angel and Spike and I believed she loved both for many different reasons. I think if you took Angel out of the picture she would not be with Spike and if you took Spike out of the picture she may not have still loved and appreciated Angel as much as she did. Not sure if my post makes any sence though lol.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Oh come on guys, we need one more vote 🙂

 

[Kean]

Next, to good solid facts that you will in no way be able to retaliate at :

In Buffy S8, it is shown (in canon) that Buffy loves both Spike and Angel EQUALLY

I'd like to test that theory 😀

Early last year Georges did a Q&A and was asked if he was given any extra direction from Joss when drawing the Angel/Buffy/Spike panel. Here is the question and Goerges answer,

lmblack21: I read somewhere that you had said Joss gave specific input for how he wanted Buffy positioned with regard to the threesome panel - that he wanted her leaning more in to Angel. Can you tell us what viewpoint Joss gave you and what he (or you) were hoping to convey with that panel?

Georges: I think it's obvious what Joss was trying to convey with that panel! When he wrote the script he said "Georges, this is probably the most graphic thing I've ever written so it'll be pretty detailed..." Not so much with Buffy Angel and Spike, but with all that was going on in the background! He wanted Buffy more toward Angel because she feels more for him, but in any event it was obvious the two of these guys were in her head!

Still His Girl **Possible Spoilers for Season 8** - Buffy-Boards
(I don't have a direct link but if anyone does let me know 🙂)

As well as that there are the little details like Buffy wearing the cross Angel gave her, and my personal favourite, Buffy is wearing her claddagh ring.

Here's the panel in question: http://i48.tinypic.com/2d804zb.jpg

Georges goes on to say that both vampires are clearly on her mind, but it is made clear that it is Angel who's in her heart.

On a slightly different topic, you have mentioned several times how you believe that Buffy actually raped Spike in "Gone". I just caught that ep a couple hours ago on FX and I have to say I couldn't disagree more.

INVISIBLE BUFFY: Free of rules and reports ... free of this life.
SPIKE: Free of life? Got another name for that. Dead.
INVISIBLE BUFFY: Why do you always have to ... (pouty) I thought we were having fun.

Invisible Buffy comes up to Spike and he grabs her by the shoulders, holds her away from him.

SPIKE: Yeah, now! But sooner or later your chums are gonna work out a way to bring you back to living color. (lets her go) You need to go. Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather-

Spike breaks off, looks down toward his waist.

SPIKE: Okay, that's cheating.

Source: Gone - Buffy Episode Transcript

There is no way that Buffy's actions could ever be construed as rape. Spike very much consented to Buffy's advances. To call it rape is an unbelievably extreme interpretation of the text.

 

[ubi4soft]

I'd like to test that theory 😀

It's called Dark Horse e-comic Always Darkest, written by Whedon, where Buffy dreams about Angel and Spike and makes NO DISTINCTION between them. They are even drawn very similarly by Joan Chen.

 

[Kean]

It's called Dark Horse e-comic Always Darkest, written by Whedon, where Buffy dreams about Angel and Spike and makes NO DISTINCTION between them. They are even drawn very similarly by Joan Chen.

Huh? That e-comic and the one I was talking about are two separate things. The threesome panel is canonical and taken from issue 3 while the e-comic is a once off kind of thing and anyway, Angel and Spike choose each other in the e-comic. It was a joke. And yes the threesome panel was a dream but Buffy's dreams more often than not are foreshadowing.

 

[Kana]

These are just random musings.

There is one sentence I'd like to begin this whole ramble with:

The lines are more defined.

The other is:

The lines are less defined.

Now, the first sentence refers to Bangel and the second refers to Spuffy.

Now this all came about when I was talking to my Bangelly biased friend. She said, like many bangels, Buffy didn't love Spike or at the very least, she didn't love him romantically.

I contended: "How do you know? These are Spike's words not Buffy. She never said that she loved him as a friend."

My friend argued that she didn't have to.

This foced me to look my old Bangel vs Spuffy posts. I found that one line when I was looking at the 'Bangel' section, can you say it with me?: THE LINES ARE MORE DEFINED.

Now, looking Buffy and Angel, they only ever slept together once (in reality, not including the non day in IWRY, that never happened lol) due to the one time it happened Angel lost his soul. Despite the limits with their physical intimacy comparatively there were still conventions of a romantic monogamous relationship. One of the main tell tell signs were that Buffy considered Angel her boyfriend, she actually says that.

Now lets run with this a bit. One of the gripes people had was that when talking about Bangel and Spuffy, some posters wish to talk about soullessSpike but wish to skate over the Angelusy bits. Fair? Well...it depends on how we define Bangel and Spuffy and here is where the lines defining comes in. When Angelus shows his ugly but well, pretty head, it seems to signify an unspoken end to the relationship. When Buffy was asked about on valentines day whether she had a bad break up she agreed. Angelus even mocked that they could get back together. Despite Angelus feelings for Buffy and Buffy lingering feelings for Angel, they were more or less defined as enemies. So while the physical element to their relationship was limited, it was more about 'holding hands'. Again can you say it with me...THE LINES ARE MORE DEFINED.

With Spuffy this is less so. Angel boasted to Spike that he and Buffy had a forever love, but Spike argued that he had a relationship with her too, but what sort of relationship was it? Interestingly enough when Angel sceptically says that sleeping with someone does not equal a relationship Spike's come back was that it was if you do it enough times. Again as far as 'sex=relationships?' it reminds me of Wilah. It seemed that even Lilah wanted or needed proof that it was a relationship. What about Spike? I'm sure he felt the same way. I mean in S6 didn't he ask Buffy if she even liked him?

Now in Season 7 Buffy even says that Spike isn't, repeat isn't, I'm sorry one more time ISN'T her boyfriend, to Angel. Although she slips, and Angel reverts to Dawsonness, she catches herself and states that he isn't. Hmmm. We can mostly agree that S6 wasn't holding hands and Season 7 Buffy didn't consider Spike her boyfriend. So please can you say it with me...THE LINES ARE LESS DEFINED!!!

So if you can imagine, my friend and I are sitting in the bar, sipping our cheap Pinot Grigio (well she paid for it) and she smirks triumphantly. Bangel has won, she's probably thinking. But no! I refuse to relent. Not because I'm a Spuffy, because I'm not really a shipper. The reason I adore Spuffy is because it refuses to stay between the lines. From a narrative perspective, it's beautiful, dark and imperfect. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not romanticising it. To say I enjoyed watching it, is not the same as saying "Yes, mutually abusive relationships are healthy!!!". But despite the truth in that, why am I not allowed to see something beautiful in it. Something with which we can identify, even if it is painful.

What about Bangel? How can I not love it? I am a romantic idealistic underneath it all, however I'm loath to idea that they will keep revisiting the whole, "I love you but we can't be together" Bangel company line, but this doesn't mean I can't reminisce about times past.

Does she love them equally. Probably, probably not. Maybe Angel is the one she loves more than anything in this world. Or perhaps Spike, the curse free vampire may be the one she wants and needs now.

Side points to people points:

Common Bangel arguments

Spuffy Season 6 is unhealthy and in Season 7 they were just friends.

One scene that crystalised it, in my head was in First Date. She's known Xander for years and he is one of her best friends, but the way she runs to Spike even though they are both injured after the fight is too vibey to ignore. Even Wood saw there was something there and he doesn't even watch the show and you can bet he's not a Spuffy.

Bangel is true love

Until Buffy says "Angel is my true love and Spike isn't, just so you know there isn't any confusion", I'm going to leave this open to interpretation.

Buffy wasn't happy in Season 6

You're right she wasn't but it doesn't define the whole relationships. HOW A RELATIONSHIP STARTS OUT DOES NOT DETERMINE HOW IT ENDS.

Common Spuffy arguments

Bangel is highschool love

It's true in that it happened in highschool but as it's been said, people can get married in then and be in love for the rest of their days. If Buffy defined it as 'highschool love', then I'd understand but in Season 7 she considers Angel some she loved more than anything else. Looking at how that scene is portrayed she almost still lives in that moment. It was real to her.

How can Angel love her as soon as he saw her?

I've seen many replies to this ranging from "Because it's true love" or "It's love at first sight" or "He wasn't being literal". To that I'd say yes...Oh explainy? Well you cannot, in my eyes seperate the love from the lover. Your interpretation to that would most likely be due to your subjective experiences. Even if Angel is being literal, it doesn't bother me. If it's real to him then it's real.

Angel is a mind-wiping/breakingupwithyouonprom/overbrooding/baddancing/can'tloveherwithoutasoul motherlover.

Ok I can almost understand the other things but, bad dancer? He only imagined he was bad dancer. Boreanaz can pop and lock and I'm still annoyed they didn't incorperate this more into the show.

But seriously. As I always say you cannot seperate the love from the lover. Not everything Angel did, I agree with because he's not pefect. Spike made some wrong calls with Buffy because of who and what he was.

This is all I have for now because I'm bored and need to get a glass of water.

Btw I voted for the third option.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Second of all, whenever the the topic of the attempted rape is brought up Spuffies clamour over themselves to tell us all he was soulless so it doesn't count. Ok, but then when Spike does good deeds sans soul you all rush even faster to say it is testament to what a unique vampire he is and his capacity for humanity is beautiful.

You're right, Kean, some Spuffies are hipocrites. And so are some Bangels.

The thing that made Spike simply different then other Buffyverse vamps was that he had the capacity to do good deeds without a soul. This does not nessesarily mean he was good. Basically, I see the attempted rape scene as the writers "reminding" the audience of Spike's demon nature. The writers had humanized him so much, they were probobly worried that Spike was making what made Angel different irrelevant.

---------- Post added at 08:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------

Then there's that whole "If Angelus was forced to hang aroud Buffy with a chip, he'd just get someone to kill her." Spike's done that before, when he couldn't do it himself. Even when he had the chip, it got to a point where he was fed up and tried to distance himself from the Scoobies and try to be evil again. & besides, like everyone else has said, Spike is the same person, soulless or not, chip or not... for the most part anyways. He's still sensitive, he still has the ability to love, he still has humanity.And, that's the Spuffies' main argument right?

Uh, no. We Spuffies have a lot of main arguments.

The fact that Spike has the abilty to love (arguably) without a soul, the fact that he exhibits humanity, and human traits such as devotion and loyalty without a soul, doesn't really have anything to do with Spuffy. It has to do with Spike's character, and what makes him different then other vampires. Most agree that Spike is different, whethor they're rooting for the Spuffy team or not. He is the only vampire in the 'verse to actively seek out a soul (regardless of why).

---------- Post added at 08:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 AM ----------

Anyone ever think she was meant to be alone? and that dating distracts from her calling? or is everyone too concerned with some sappy love story

Personally, I don't believe that it's set stone that, in order for Buffy to fulfill her duty, that she needs to sacrifice her personal life. I believe she can have both; a relationship and her mission. What she needs is a an ally, a partner, and a confidante. She has had this in the past and she can again.

Also, I wouldn't call Spuffy a 'sappy love story.' Quite the opposite, actually. 😉

 

[Kean]

The thing that made Spike simply different then other Buffyverse vamps was that he had the capacity to do good deeds without a soul. This does not nessesarily mean he was good. Basically, I see the attempted rape scene as the writers "reminding" the audience of Spike's demon nature. The writers had humanized him so much, they were probobly worried that Spike was making made Angel different irrelevant.

I agree that the attempted rape was a wake up call and meant to underline the fact that Spike was, at his core, a demon. However, I don't for a second think it had anything to do with how Spike's story was encroaching on Angel's. The wake up call was for the fans, not for Angel.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I agree that the attempted rape was a wake up call and meant to underline the fact that Spike was, at his core, a demon. However, I don't for a second think it had anything to do with how Spike's story was encroaching on Angel's. The wake up call was for the fans, not for Angel.

I mention this because I read somewhere that some writer said something similar to this. I'll try to find the quote.

 

[white avenger]

I agree that the attempted rape was a wake up call and meant to underline the fact that Spike was, at his core, a demon. However, I don't for a second think it had anything to do with how Spike's story was encroaching on Angel's. The wake up call was for the fans, not for Angel.

I tend to think that the attempted rape scene actually was a sort of wake up call or moment of realization for Spike. When Buffy finally pushes him away, I actually think that, at that precise moment, Spike realized a terrible thing: He had become, or at least was in danger of becoming, something that he despised more than anything else in the world: Angelus.

Now, before all of the Bangels reading this start growling that this is just another Spuffy rant, let me explain my reasons for saying that. We know from what we have seen throughout both series that Angelus was a torturer, a molester, a murderer, and a rapist. He loved to inflict pain on those weaker than he himself was. He was a killer, not just to feed or to stay alive, he actually ENJOYED it. Driving Drusilla insane before turning her, and the rape and murder of Holtz' wife and the turning of his young daughter tell us all that about what kind of monster Angelus was.

Spike, however, was a vampire cut from totally different cloth. By his own admission and what we saw, Spike was "all about the kill," a predator who treated humans as the prey that he saw them to be. With the chip, with no outlet for his martial tendencies, he became literally suicidal. He was a warrior without a war, and a brawler without a brawl. When he needed to get information from Angel about the Ring of Amara, he had to hire anoher vampire to perform the actual torture. (and before anyone brings up the "spike through the head" thing or the "You have no idea what I'm capable of to girls of Dawn's age" conversation, let me say that I believe that the former, taken from the Watcher's files, was probably no more accurate than their guess at his age.

Having given all of that as the basis for my conclusions, I will restate: at that moment, in Buffy's bathroom, Spike realized that he was becoming the thing that he hated and despised most: Angelus. Angelus was the rapist. Spike was the warrior. Spike's idea of great foreplay was exactly what we saw in "Smashed." I have no doubt that he and Dru went at it exactly that same way on a regular basis. Angelus was the one who preferred to inflict his will onto a weaker victim, and at that moment, Spike realized that he was becoming like Angelus. That's why Spike stopped when he did, and why he left Sunnydale to win his soul, not because Angel had a soul, but because Angelus did NOT have one (I hope that that makes sense to you). He wanted to be as completely different from his grandsire as he could manage.

 

[Kean]

Spike, however, was a vampire cut from totally different cloth. By his own admission and what we saw, Spike was "all about the kill," a predator who treated humans as the prey that he saw them to be. With the chip, with no outlet for his martial tendencies, he became literally suicidal. He was a warrior without a war, and a brawler without a brawl. When he needed to get information from Angel about the Ring of Amara, he had to hire anoher vampire to perform the actual torture. (and before anyone brings up the "spike through the head" thing or the "You have no idea what I'm capable of to girls of Dawn's age" conversation, let me say that I believe that the former, taken from the Watcher's files, was probably no more accurate than their guess at his age.

Spike was a killer. This is a fact. You cannot sugarcoat that anymore than I could try to sugarcoat Angelus.

SPIKE
No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

Source: Damage - Angel Season 5 Episode 5x11 #99 Transcript

You can romance him all you like but he was second only to Angelus in his cruelty and passion for the kill. Spike as a demon is no more a hero than Angelus.