The War has Begun! - Are You Ready to Rumble?

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I mention this because I read somewhere that some writer said something similar to this. I'll try to find the quote.

Here it is:

From a David Fury Q&Q:

Question: In Buffy's season 5, you were fairly adamant that Spike was not redeemable. Then in season 7, you seemed to change your mind, solidifying that when Spike moved over to Angel. What made you change your mind?

David Fury:Ah, yes, the Spike debate again. It was my personal conviction, based on the show's mythology, that a soul-less vampire like Spike was incapable of being redeemed. Otherwise, Angel having a soul was irrelevant. Spike could be domesticated, sure, he could be conditioned via the chip in his head not to kill, but he was still a soul-less killer. My opinion shifted after two things happened: Spike was given a soul at the end of "Grave," and I began to see that Spike was an anomaly in the vampire world. A small part of William's humanity was left within him after the vampire Spike took over.

Hence why Spike is special and different.

I agree with you, Kean. It is only his personal opinion that Spike affects Angel's character. I don't think that Spike had anything to do with diminishing Angel's character at all. Some people do, though, apparently.

 

[Kean]

Here it is:

From a David Fury Q&Q:



Hence why Spike is special and different.

I agree with you, Kean. It is only his personal opinion that Spike affects Angel's character. I don't think that Spike had anything to do with diminishing Angel's character at all. Some people do, though, apparently.

Ok, I do get where he is coming from with how Spike being redeemed without a soul would actually mess the mythology. Although, I think it wouldn't just affect Angel but the human characters too. It isn't just the vamps the need redemption in this verse.

I agree with you though, the journey's of the characters are entirely separate. I don't think either one could be diminished by the other.

 

[Kana]

I tend to think that the attempted rape scene actually was a sort of wake up call or moment of realization for Spike. When Buffy finally pushes him away, I actually think that, at that precise moment, Spike realized a terrible thing: He had become, or at least was in danger of becoming, something that he despised more than anything else in the world: Angelus.

Now, before all of the Bangels reading this start growling that this is just another Spuffy rant, let me explain my reasons for saying that. We know from what we have seen throughout both series that Angelus was a torturer, a molester, a murderer, and a rapist. He loved to inflict pain on those weaker than he himself was. He was a killer, not just to feed or to stay alive, he actually ENJOYED it. Driving Drusilla insane before turning her, and the rape and murder of Holtz' wife and the turning of his young daughter tell us all that about what kind of monster Angelus was.

Spike, however, was a vampire cut from totally different cloth. By his own admission and what we saw, Spike was "all about the kill," a predator who treated humans as the prey that he saw them to be. With the chip, with no outlet for his martial tendencies, he became literally suicidal. He was a warrior without a war, and a brawler without a brawl. When he needed to get information from Angel about the Ring of Amara, he had to hire anoher vampire to perform the actual torture. (and before anyone brings up the "spike through the head" thing or the "You have no idea what I'm capable of to girls of Dawn's age" conversation, let me say that I believe that the former, taken from the Watcher's files, was probably no more accurate than their guess at his age.

Having given all of that as the basis for my conclusions, I will restate: at that moment, in Buffy's bathroom, Spike realized that he was becoming the thing that he hated and despised most: Angelus. Angelus was the rapist. Spike was the warrior. Spike's idea of great foreplay was exactly what we saw in "Smashed." I have no doubt that he and Dru went at it exactly that same way on a regular basis. Angelus was the one who preferred to inflict his will onto a weaker victim, and at that moment, Spike realized that he was becoming like Angelus. That's why Spike stopped when he did, and why he left Sunnydale to win his soul, not because Angel had a soul, but because Angelus did NOT have one (I hope that that makes sense to you). He wanted to be as completely different from his grandsire as he could manage.

I don't think Spike's issue was about rape and torture in general because soullessSpike has never been shown to find such things morally repugnant.

Now there were two things. Spike wasn't into sadism or slow forms of death on weaker victims mostly because he found it boring, not disgusting or ethically wrong.

The second thing is that he almost raped the woman he loved. Now I can understand the confusion. For him love, sex and violence were all mixed up in his head. I mean he was dating a sadist and masochist for 100 years. Deep down Spike wanted Buffy to have what she wanted but she was struggling with that at the time hence the 'messiness' of Spuffy. I don't think he was worried about raping and torturing in general. If he did, why would he have looked up to Angelus so much? Why would he consider him a 'sire' or a 'Yoda'? Doesn't really make sense to me. Although he didn't personally adhere to Angelus particular kind of evil he was, he was quite impressed by him. Things really became sour when Angelus personally tortured him emotionally.

 

[Kelsey]

You can romance him all you like but he was second only to Angelus in his cruelty and passion for the kill. Spike as a demon is no more a hero than Angelus.

But were we really the first ones to romanticize him? Didn’t the writers do that, with the sacrifice and kindness and caring he showed at the end of Season 5?

What I personally feel happened with Spike’s character is that the writers got ahead of themselves. Spike was a fan-favorite, and fans were rapidly jumping on board for this unexpected Spike-redemption plotline. Some of his best moments are at the end of Season 5, and it was those scenes that finally made Spike human to us, or at least to me. Seeing that, I really believed that he was changing and had the ability to be good. And you have to admit, during that last half of the season through the fight with Glory, Spike was pretty damn good.

I feel like in Season 6, the writers suddenly realized, “Aw, crap, we broke our own canon!” From there, they tried to scoop up the spilled milk, so to speak. They tried to show us that, oh, yeah, this Spike guy? He’s no good. But they didn’t do it effectively enough to ever convince me he was unequivocally, terribly evil. He was clearly not the same character who had started out killing innocent people for the fun of it. He had darkness in him, yes, but he was also twisted and emotionally tormented and clearly battling the feelings he knew a soulless vampire shouldn’t feel. Plus, he was involved in a seriously bad relationship that was extremely detrimental not only to his partner, but to Spike himself.

There’s an article I read a while back at All About Spike (go figure) that explains this better than I can. If you have any interest in reading it, it’s here: Article . It doesn’t just talk about Spike, either, it talks about Season 6 as a whole, and I think it makes a lot of really valid points about all the character’s actions. One quote from it that I agree with very much is this: “Unwilling to have Spike prove capable of staying good without a soul, but still forced by their plans to rehabilitate him later on to keep the character sympathetic, the writers were in a bind, and forced to limp along making Spike sorta kinda evil, maybe, if you look at him sideways, except when he's not.”

Again, I find the biggest difference between Spike-lovers and non-Spike fans is that we see the little instances of change. It's very easy to say, "He's a killer, a monster, I don't like him!" But if his character appeals to you, and his always did to me, then those instances of humanity where there should be none were just really, really cool. And a reason to keep watching.

I think this might have been a tangent, but it's something I've wanted to talk about for awhile. But to make this relevant..... SPUFFY IS THE BEST. =D

 

[ubi4soft]

Things really became sour when Angelus personally tortured him emotionally.

Hm, maybe "I don't want her bitching about it" was a Drusilla reference after all.

 

[Emzzie]

Now now everyone. We all know Spike will win anyways. 😛 (Spikey is in the lead again.)

Ok, obviously Spike is waaaaaay better than Angel, but Buffy loved them both in two different ways, two ways that are hard to compare. When we do compare, it is like a test of which vampire is better or which one had a stronger love for Buffy. Truth is, I think they both loved her the same amount, that Buffy loved them back in two different ways as I said, and that neither vampire with a soul is better then the other. On the other hand when they have no soul, Spikey obviously still has humanity in him while Angelus does not, but that is besides the point because Buffy did not love Angelus so you cannot compare Angelus to Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Now now everyone. We all know Spike will win anyways. 😛 (Spikey is in the lead again.)

Ok, obviously Spike is waaaaaay better than Angel, but Buffy loved them both in two different ways, two ways that are hard to compare. When we do compare, it is like a test of which vampire is better or which one had a stronger love for Buffy. Truth is, I think they both loved her the same amount, that Buffy loved them back in two different ways as I said, and that neither vampire with a soul is better then the other. On the other hand when they have no soul, Spikey obviously still has humanity in him while Angelus does not, but that is besides the point because Buffy did not love Angelus so you cannot compare Angelus to Spike.

I agree. You can't compare Angel to Spike. They're too different. My thread is not about who's better (although that's what shipper threads always seem to come down too in the end), it's about who you think Buffy should be with in the future or who you think she was better with. It's all about personal taste, really. 🙂

 

[Kelsey]

I agree. You can't compare Angel to Spike. They're too different. My thread is not about who's better (although that's what shipper threads always seem to come down too in the end), it's about who you think Buffy should be with in the future or who you think she was better with. It's all about personal taste, really. 🙂

Hmm, you know, I don't think I've stated yet why I think Spike is better for her. I'll give that a go. =)

I think Spike and Buffy could share a relationship based on trust, mutual love, and friendship. In Season 7 she obviously depended on him, and with good reason; he never let her down. They worked together, they were a team, and they were a comfort to one another. You may say all of this only means friendship, but isn't friendship a huge part of a relationship? If you can't be friends with your partner, you don't have much of one.

Also, I feel like in time they would get back to their passion for one another from S6. Without the violence, mind you, and in a much heathier way. But it's obvious that Spike and Buffy could have an.. ahem, healthy intimate life once they reached that point. So he can be her companion, her friend, the one person she can depend on most, and he can... y'know, scratch the itch.

So.... that's why I think Spuffy's better. Angel and Buffy had a beautiful relationship, but so much of it was pain and angst. I feel like their love wouldn't have felt as epic without it, but Buffy doesn't need a constant tragic relationship to deal with. So Spike's her guy!

 

[CrystalW187]

Voted for Spike. There are so many reasons I love Spuffy and a lot of evidence I could throw out there to support their relationship over B/A, but I guess what it boils down to for me is that Spuffy is just far more interesting. It goes from being a one-sided, wrong, twisted, unhealthy, and destructive relationship to a mutual, deep, trusting, and beautiful one.

Bangel has always struck me as cliche. Even Joss admitted this in the "Welcome to the Hellmouth" commentary. I do believe that you never forget your first love, and that Angel and Buffy will always love each other. But I think that the way Buffy and Angel immediately rushed into a passionate romance compared with the gradual progression of Buffy and Spike's relationship makes B/S seem more real and permanent.

That last sentence doesn't makes much sense, but you get my drift.

 

[Kelsey]

Bangel has always struck me as cliche. Even Joss admitted this in the "Welcome to the Hellmouth" commentary. I do believe that you never forget your first love, and that Angel and Buffy will always love each other. But I think that the way Buffy and Angel immediately rushed into a passionate romance compared with the gradual progression of Buffy and Spike's relationship makes B/S seem more real and permanent.

Yes! I agree with that completely; there love was the big epic romance. It's not a bad thing, and I actually used to love romances like that. Hell, I loved Bangel at the time. But I guess now I'd rather watch a relationship that progresses and changes, and isn't just, "Oh, I love you! Oh, I can't be with you!"

There's another show I used to watch called Roswell, and there was a relationship a lot like Bangel's on there. I used to adore it, but when I watched the show again recently, I couldn't help finding it cheesy! And there was another relationship that was all sarcasm and bickering, and I began to like that one better. I think it's the same with Bangel and Spuffy; Spuffy is just more interesting to me now.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Hmm, you know, I don't think I've stated yet why I think Spike is better for her. I'll give that a go. =)

I think Spike and Buffy could share a relationship based on trust, mutual love, and friendship. In Season 7 she obviously depended on him, and with good reason; he never let her down. They worked together, they were a team, and they were a comfort to one another. You may say all of this only means friendship, but isn't friendship a huge part of a relationship? If you can't be friends with your partner, you don't have much of one.

Also, I feel like in time they would get back to their passion for one another from S6. Without the violence, mind you, and in a much heathier way. But it's obvious that Spike and Buffy could have an.. ahem, healthy intimate life once they reached that point. So he can be her companion, her friend, the one person she can depend on most, and he can... y'know, scratch the itch.

So.... that's why I think Spuffy's better. Angel and Buffy had a beautiful relationship, but so much of it was pain and angst. I feel like their love wouldn't have felt as epic without it, but Buffy doesn't need a constant tragic relationship to deal with. So Spike's her guy!

I agree. Bangel was all about the beauty in the tragedy. It was about first love, about learning that reality often gets in the way of what one wants. It was about the fact that just because you love someone doesn't mean you can make it work. Time and again again they were constantly being reminded why it couldn't work between them. Their love for each other was clouded in constant uncertainty; was their love enough to make it work? Could they dodge the curse? Could Angel give Buffy what she "deserved"? Was dating Buffy interfering with Angel's personal journey? The doomed nature of their romance made for great drama, but in the end, they won't end up together. I'm sure of it.

Spuffy is about learning to love again. Taking the plunge no matter where it takes you, because it's in your gut, in your bones. Because, most of the time, you want what isn't good for you. It seemed in the beginning that Spike wasn't what Buffy ne eded, but in the end, proved to be everything she needed and wanted.

Spike is Buffy's shadow, her inner darkness personified, her other half, her subconscious desire, her soul-mate. He understands her, accepts her, doesn't ask (would never) her to change. He relates to her, inspires her, and loves her despite all she has done to him. In fact, he loves her more because of it. His love for her made him a better man. Caused him to be the only vampire ever in the 'verse to actively seek out a soul. Later, he returned the favor; he saved her, gave her the power to fight the last fight. He was the catalyst that broke her barrier she had created around herself. Buffy was scared to love again, but Spike freed her. Broke her walls. Spike helped her in more ways anyone will never know. I know she thinks of him, and he's still with her, in how she acts, how she reacts to things. She carries him still in her heart, like she told Angel so long ago.

Spike, on the other hand unlike Angel, made Buffy his life. Spike's mission became hers. He devoted himself and his entire energies to helping her. I'm sure that if he hadn't had to die in the Hellmouth, he'd still be by her side, and as you said Kelsey, as her friend, her confidante, her ally and of course, her lover (if she'd allow it, of course.) 🙂

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Spike would do anything for Buffy. That's what makes true love. Selflessness. Sacrifice. Devotion.

Is he better then Angel? No. Spuffy and Bangel were different and served different purposes. But is he better for Buffy? YES. IMO, absolutely. Spike is the only person she's truly felt like she could be herself around. He gave her her fire back. He taught her how to love again, how to trust, how to find her inner fire and not to be afraid of the demon/darkness inside of her. He gave her the strength to continue to fight.

Spike is Buffy's man. Always will be, in my book, in my dreams, and in my little reunion fantasy between the two.

Also Kelsey, I agree that they could definitely find the passion again. It never left. Buffy just needs to be in the head-space again where she's doing something for herself, not for others. Using Spike for sex was always about what she wanted. She wanted him, but only a part of him, and he wanted all of her. I believe with all my heart she still wants him.

Buffy, our hero, deserves someone like Spike. Someone who would never let her down. *sigh* Sure can't say that about Angel, can we?

Oops, I went on a tangent. Back to my Spanish homework. *drags herself away form the safety of BB*

 

[Emzzie]

I agree. You can't compare Angel to Spike. They're too different. My thread is not about who's better (although that's what shipper threads always seem to come down too in the end), it's about who you think Buffy should be with in the future or who you think she was better with. It's all about personal taste, really. 🙂

Oh ok. Well then I think she was better with Spike because I always like the bad boys and Angel was not very badass. I think Spike sacrificed alot to be with her and I think he deserves Buffy, as she does him.