The whole grudge on Spike....

[Wishing Oceans]

Ok guys, I've been thinking about this, and here's a couple of quotes that make me think of the AR:

1. (Cordelia, To Lilah, about women and power, in Billy)

"It's not the pain. It's the helplessness. The certainty that there is nothing you can do to stop it, that your life can be thrown away in an instant by someone else. He doesn't care. He'll beat you down until you stay down because he doesn't even think of you as alive. No woman should ever have to go through that, and no woman strong enough to wear the mantel of 'vicious bitch' would ever put up with it."


2. (Conversation between Giles and Buffy, I Only Have Eyes For You)

Giles: "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."


(I did have another quote, but.. I seem to have forgotten it. XD )


Alright, so I was thinking about this issue last night, and I've come to some conclusions about:

1. It wasn't completely Buffy OR Spike's fault
2. Spike, in a way, is kind of a victim in this situation (Sounds bad, but don't worry, I'll explain 😀 )
3. ... Gosh, I keep forgetting everything! xD

Anyway, I think that conclusion #2 is the one that I should explain...

Observe quote #1 porfavor, the one from Billy. 😀 I feel that this quote on how women were treated is uncannily similar to the way Spike was treated. Here, I'll decipher it bit by bit xD :

It's not the pain. It's the helplessness. Spike could handle blows, but he couldn't do anything back. He was completely helpless, and they took advantage of that, especially Buffy and Xander. The certainty that there is nothing you can do to stop it, that your life can be thrown away in an instant by someone else. He did have to live with the constant paranoia that they would beat or kill him, and being helpless, he wouldn't be able to do anything to stop them. Kinda like how in S5 Buffy always used Spike as her punching bag. He doesn't care. He'll beat you down until you stay down because he doesn't even think of you as alive. Dead Things flashback... Buffy often said that Spike wasn't anything, just a disgusting thing. That's actually a form of abuse intended to make someone feel bad enough about themselves to believe what you say, which puts them under your power. Buffy did beat him down, usually for no reason at all, several times. And she didn't even particularly care, never apologized or anything. She thought he was a "thing", not even alive or capable of feeling, when really SHE was the one incapable of feeling (in S6). No woman should ever have to go through that, and no woman strong enough to wear the mantel of 'vicious bitch' would ever put up with it. They (The SG) constantly tried to get both physical and mental control over him, used him to their advantage and tossed him to the garbage when they didn't need him, disrespected him, abused him, victimized him, and were just all 'round unfair. It's like beating up someone who's paralyzed; It's cowardly. And also, unheroic. As someone once said, a hero is not defined by how they treat their friends, but how they treat their fallen enemies. Hm... Epic fail? 😀 And also, let my rephrase that last part: No [creature] should ever have to go through that, and no [creature] strong enough to wear the mantle of [evil thing] would EVER put up with it. I'm surprised that Spike did put up with it, for the most part. (Except with that S4 betrayal thing) He could've done something, but he didn't.

So, that was how Spike was victimized in general. xD But I want a closer look on how Spike was victimized in the AR:

Spike was driven practically insane this season. First, Buffy comes back. The happiest moment of his unlife. They grow close, and seem to be good friends. They start kissing, but afterwards Buffy always denies anything and everything. It brings him to this really confused place: Does she want? Does she not want me? All these contradictions! Then they start sleeping together. In this case, as in most, sex just complicates the equation. For "five hours" she seems to like, sometimes more. Than, at other random times, she'll go right back to hurting him to make herself feel better. As I said, very puzzling. He kinda thought she loved him, kinda thought she hated him. But she kept sending him mixed signals, so every time he thought he had an answer she would say something else, and he'd be all confused again. xD It was really a dark place, and neither really knew what they wanted. Buffy didn't know if she had actual, real feelings for him, or if she was just using him for sex. Spike wasn't sure either, so they weren't ever really at agreement for what their relationship really was. They never actually stopped to talk it over, to make sure the other was thinking the same thing, and understood what was and wasn't acceptable for their relationship. Because of that, Spike really didn't know where to draw the line, where to back off. Buffy had wanted him to hurt her, to be vicious and wild and crazy with her, so he realize that now it was time for him to back off. He was hearing so many things, all of them contradictory: She said she couldn't let him get killed and had feelings for him, but she could never trust him and thought he was an evil thing. Yeah... What? Seriously, I can understand why Spike was confused. Their relationship had no actual limits or boundaries, because they had never MADE those limits or boundaries. He didn't get it, but nothing was making sense. He chose to think optimistically though, and took half of her signals to the conclusion that she still wanted him. After all, she SAID she still wanted him. When she told him to stop, in his slightly twisted mind he thought it was just like all those other times she told him to stop. He didn't take it into account, because he never had to before. Buffy hadn't wanted him to be a gentleman to her before, she was using him as a way to punish herself. Hence, no was fairly meaningless. By the time he had taken into account her crying and shrieks, he was already too far gone into the crazed passion to realize and think that he needed to stop.
When she kicked him, I think that reality really hit him: As said in Dead Things, "This isn't some fantasy, this isn't a game you freaks! It's rape!" He was stuck in some delusion that Buffy wanted him, he wanted her, and they could be happy together. And he thought that if you could make Buffy see, or rather feel that, than she would understand and realize the truth of it, lol. Ridiculous, I know. xD

Of course, in no way I'm saying this as an excuse. No, I'm just trying to interpret this in the best and hopefully most realistic way I can. =)

Now, let's observe quote #2, from IOHEFY:

Giles: "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it."

I think that this quote is the epitome of what people need to remember. Spike may not deserve forgiveness, but he needs it, and he certainly earned it. If that makes sense. xD

As the quote goes, you don't have to forget, but thou must forgive. You can always remember what Spike did, just like what all the other characters, and think about how he developed since then, how you forgave him, and how essentially you are better for it. Bitterness is never good. 🙂

When I was writing I meant that vampire’s were evil because they “hurt” people, with torture and stuff. In case they just killed, quickly and without that much pain, it wouldn’t be evil. It’s not like I only eat vegetable, it’s a part of nature.

But even if vampire only killed without pain, I would still be on the slayers side. In case I found out there were vampires in the world, who could kill someone I like, I would hopefully try to kill those vamps to protect people.

I'm not sure what you mean about vegetables... And what's so bad about hurting people, anyway? What makes humans better than everyone else, lol? Maybe Slayers should all die for hurting vampires.

Ahhh, torture. Humans torture, especially in the food industry. I used to make protest essays, actually. I can p.m. you one if you like. 😀 See, I just don't like that humans can do whatever they like and get away with it, simply because they're human. But if any other creature steps one toe outta line... BOOM! EVVVIILLLLLL! 😀

So not really double standards. I just sided with humanity on the eating or getting eaten question. I think killing vamps are okay, because otherwise they’ll kill us.

I do enjoy the kill or be killed philosophy... 😀

Why said Gods don’t deserve to get killed? I read a bit of mythology and I have to say, bring on the God-killing.

Lol, I meant God as in above everyone and everything else. 😀 Like, Godliness. Not Aphrodite. 😉

And I don’t think many people would say there’s a true good and a true evil, but we all have different views of it. As I said, for me causing unnecessary harm is evil.

Yet, you don't think humans are evil? The one species in the whole world that causes the most destruction? The one that kills thousands of SPECIES every year? xD

The shooting that office guy was bad, but wasn’t that in the knee? So not killing, but still bad. Very bad. But understandable.

Hm, I got the impression that he killed him, but I'll go back and check for ya. =)

And Knox had to die, definitely.

Hah, did you not here Angel's "love humanity" speech?

How is Gunn a killer? Otherfor the shipping signing that caused Fred’s death and killing the professor, which I think is fine, since he almost got Fred killed and had done similar to other students and was likely to do it again?

It was still killing humans, which, in most societies, is punishable. 😀

And yes, Angel should be killed because he killed that demon slave, but not for any other kill. And Faith felt really bad about the people she hurt/killed, she changed, that’s different.

They ALL felt bad, for the most part. And I'm not quite sure what you mean with Angel... He DID kill innocent people while ensouled, such as that man in the 'shop during one of S4 Angelus' flashbacks. 😀 Also, Drogyn. And he almost killed Wes, the attempt was there.

And Connor, I’m not sure. He really seemed okay the last we saw on him in season 5, and he’s definitely fine in the comics.

Only because he had a COMPLETELY different life... It was barely even Connor anymore. BTW, do you read the comics, hon?

Faith and Connor are ex-killers. Wesley’s dad was about to kill someone. There’s the difference. If someone was about to shot someone you loved, wouldn’t you shot them first if you had the chance?

Who knows, hopefully I've never find out. 🙂

I’m starting to get upset now. You think that Gunn getting a stranger killed is fine and that Wes should have let his fake father kill Fred?

No and no. 😀 I meant that technically Gunn didn't kill Fred, because never in his wildest dreams had he thought that signing that paper would have EVER come back to bite Fred. I'm not saying that it was OK for him to not care about hurting some other person, but he never tried to hurt Fred. 🙂 And I don't think that Wes should have let his fake dad kill Fred, I'm just listing that as one of his many kills. 🙂

I wasn’t comparing species, I was comparing you and Spike. I said that Spike might rape a dead woman. You said he wouldn’t, because it’s gross and not fun. I said that I think Spike might disagree with you on your view of what’s fun and gross(ergo, he might think it’s fun and lovely to rape dead women, so what you think is gross and not fun has nothing to do with that he might think. Unless you think he agrees with you).

True, but still. I can never stop myself when an opportunity to criticize the human species appears... (Lol, I'm so sadistic 😀 )

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think that's why Spuffy has so much fans, because of Spike = bad. It's dangerous on the first look, but we as a fans see it in a much deeper level. We can't forget them, because if we do, that is a game with no winners.

No to go off-topic, but this just shows how little you understand why we 'ship Spuffy. Just as so, I don't understand the appeal of Bangel.

You honestly think that the reason we like this relationship is because Spike is bad? Actually, I don't think Spike is that "bad." I think it's mostly bravado. After all, he's 'love's bitch' and a poet at heart.

What do you mean by "forgetting them"? Who? Spuffy?

Anyhow, this whole AR thing - we'll never agree. We see it differently. It's all good. I'm not delusional; I'll admit my Spike bias. Absolutely. He's my all-time favorite character, so of course I'll "excuse" what he does. Of course what he did disturbed me. Of course Buffy didn't deserve it or ask for it. And of course Spike was devestated by what he did. What what can I do? It's over, it's the past. He's atoned for it, he's made up for it, he HAS redeemed himself. I believe this completely.

I respect people when they they they can't forgive him because it hits home for them, or because it's personal. Fine. I don't understand the double standard, though.

Spike is not human. He acted human, had human modivations, feelings, exterior etc but he was not human. Angelus isn't held responsible for what he did. WHY IS SPIKE? *gets upset*

 

[Emzzie]

No to go off-topic, but this just shows how little you understand why we 'ship Spuffy. Just as so, I don't understand the appeal of Bangel.

You honestly think that the reason we like this relationship is because Spike is bad? Actually, I don't think Spike is that "bad." I think it's mostly bravado. After all, he's 'love's bitch' and a poet at heart.

Sorry the karma box cut me off. What I was trying to say was PB might have thought that Spuffies liked him because he was bad because a few posts before hers I said that the reason I liked Spuffy was because I was always drawn to the bad boys on tv shows, and considered Spike bad. Thats just me though 🙂 So ya I think it was kinda my fault she said that, haha.

 

[Kelsey]

Spike is not human. He acted human, had human modivations, feelings, exterior etc but he was not human. Angelus isn't held responsible for what he did. WHY IS SPIKE? *gets upset*

Aww, calm down! *Gives you a cookie* =)

From my point of view, I'm hesitant on dismissing everything Spike did as him being soulless because that also dismisses all the good things he did pre-soul, too. I don't want to forget or deny everything Spike was pre-soul, and that's what happens with Angelus. Angel is not held responsible or blamed for Angelus' actions, but neither is Angelus considered a creature capable of redemption. But, as you said, it seems vastly unfair to excuse Angelus' actions yet not excuse Spike's, since they were essentially the same type demon.

See? Torn.

I've also heard the frequent (and admittedly valid) argument from Bangels that they don't like when Spuffies praise Spike for his good actions pre-soul, yet in the same breath dismiss all of his bad actions as just Spike being soulless.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Aww, calm down! *Gives you a cookie* =)

From my point of view, I'm hesitant on dismissing everything Spike did as him being soulless because that also dismisses all the good things he did pre-soul, too. I don't want to forget or deny everything Spike was pre-soul, and that's what happens with Angelus. Angel is not held responsible or blamed for Angelus' actions, but neither is Angelus considered a creature capable of redemption. But, as you said, it seems vastly unfair to excuse Angelus' actions yet not excuse Spike's, since they were essentially the same type demon.

See? Torn.

I've also heard the frequent (and admittedly valid) argument from Bangels that they don't like when Spuffies praise Spike for his good actions pre-soul, yet in the same breath dismiss all of his bad actions as just Spike being soulless.

*takes cookie, takes a tiny, tentative bite*

I guess you're right. It is a difficult situation for us Spike fans. I like your point; if we dismiss presoul!Spike's actions we need to also dismiss his good ones as well. *sigh*

Why is this so complicated? Why, oh why did the writers decide to include the AR in the plot? It would have all been so much easier had they not written that awful scene.

 

[Tranquillity]

I say embrace the AR - it happened in the context of the story - it led to better things - Spike didn't stay static and stuck in that moment in time - he used it to seek change - Buffy forgave him - and they went on to have a relationship that meant something. That's part and parcel of having a vampire as your favourite character (as spike is mine) or any vampire actually - because they've all murdered, raped, pillaged, tortured etc... ALL of them.

 

[TheVoid68]

Aww, calm down! *Gives you a cookie* =)

From my point of view, I'm hesitant on dismissing everything Spike did as him being soulless because that also dismisses all the good things he did pre-soul, too. I don't want to forget or deny everything Spike was pre-soul, and that's what happens with Angelus. Angel is not held responsible or blamed for Angelus' actions, but neither is Angelus considered a creature capable of redemption. But, as you said, it seems vastly unfair to excuse Angelus' actions yet not excuse Spike's, since they were essentially the same type demon.

See? Torn.

I've also heard the frequent (and admittedly valid) argument from Bangels that they don't like when Spuffies praise Spike for his good actions pre-soul, yet in the same breath dismiss all of his bad actions as just Spike being soulless.

This is completely right. Either Spike is a different person pre and post souling, or he is the same person. If he's a different person then he doesn't get credit for anything "good" he did pre-soul, if he's the same person then he's completely to blame for the AR. Minds need to be made up.

And I have to say that I completely and utterly disagree with the notion of Spike as a "victim". I was going to explain why but to be 100% honest I cannot be bothered to get into an argument about it, so I'll just state my objection and leave it there.

 

[Kean]

I've also heard the frequent (and admittedly valid) argument from Bangels that they don't like when Spuffies praise Spike for his good actions pre-soul, yet in the same breath dismiss all of his bad actions as just Spike being soulless.

This is the abolute crux of my frustration. Right now I can't stand him but I used to kind of like the guy but I found this "have you cake and eat it too" thing with him very hard to swallow. I feel like I can't be angry with him for things he did pre-soul because I keep reading how everywhere how he was actually good, albeit confused.

I feel like what he did wrong is being dismissed and you, his fans, feel like what he did right is being dismissed. Catch 22.

I'm not a Spike fan so I don't know but those of you who are, would it be so bad if you had to see him in a lesser light during season 6 than what you do? I suppose I'm wondering why his good deeds are so important before he had a soul? I mean they stil exist, they still stand but so too do the bad and they all go into making soulled-Spike.

I suppose the real question here is who do you view as the "real" Spike.

I think one of the reasons why Angelus and Angel can exist separately for his fans is a) we met Angel first and he will always be the rightful owner of that body, b) we know that everything that happened in Angel's past lives has led him to be who he is and we can accept that because we want him to be soulled Angel.

It's different for Spike fans though because they had 6 seasons of no soul and only 2 of having a soul.

Perhaps that is why this topic always gets so messy.

 

[Tranquillity]

I think one of the reasons why Angelus and Angel can exist separately for his fans is a) we met Angel first and he will always be the rightful owner of that body, b) we know that everything that happened in Angel's past lives has led him to be who he is and we can accept that because we want him to be soulled Angel.

But isn't that the same for Spike? - Isn't souled Spike the rightful owner of his body too? Hasn't everything that Spike done led him to the point of being souled? Speaking for myself - I don't excuse Spike's bad stuff - pre or post soul. It's all part and parcel of what makes him a character that I like and am interested in. I know their are Spike fans who tend to martyre the character but truthfully, I've seen just as many who excuse Angel for everything he's ever done with the conveinieint Angel/Angelus distinction.

So for me the real Spike is Buffy season seven Spike (and Angel season five Spike) who went through everything that he went through in order to get to where he got to. See he didn't stop developing as a character at season six. And if Joss suddenly tells me that Spike is now a mass-murdering-mask-wearing-super-villian then i would have to accept that too.

Man, sometimes it seems that Spike's greatest crime was sleeping with Buffy 😉

 

[white avenger]

Some of us look at the character of Angelus as a crutch, a sort of, "the devil made me do it" evil twin that Angel can lay all of the blame of his past sins on. Angel didn't kill more people than smallpox, Angelus did. Angel didn't bring Darla babies for snack food, Angelus did. Angel never raped and tortured all of those people, Angelus did. Sure, Angel can brood over his past, or he can say that he fights the good fight in order to atone for all of his previous sins, which, of course, is all the more noble, because, after all, HE didn't do all of that stuff, mean ol' Angelus did. Even his name implies a being only one step removed from divine. The "guardian" Angel. The "avenging" Angel. No one ever remembers "the killer with the angelic face," or, if they do, they very quickly remind themselves that that was ANGELUS, not their Angel.

With Spike, things are completely different. William the Bloody. The Slayer of Slayers. The Big Bad who got the name Spike because of his habit of driving railroad spikes through his victims' heads. Even without the railroad spike story, the name Spike suggests either some low born brawler, probably a bully and a drunkard, swaggering around crowing about just how bad he really is. Or maybe the vicious guard dog that has to be kept chained up during the day, only released at night to prowl the premises, and may god have pity on any intruder that he might meet, because Spike certainly won't. Spike, the dimwitted henchman who is always subservient to his master (Angelus, of course, because Angel would never associate with someone so evil)

With Angel, you have the tortured soul, the dark champion with the mysterious, violent past. The man who never loved or was loved, who never even knew what love was, until he met HER. His inspiration. His guiding light, leading him on the path of redemption. His golden dream, always just out of reach because of an ancient curse that will keep them forever apart. The bad man whose life was turned completely around because he was the killer of one so beautiful, so perfect, so innocent, that the crime sickened and horrified even the monster that he was at the time that it drove him virtually insane with guilt and regret, ultimately causing him to embark on a mission of helping the helpless, protecting the innocent, and dealing out harsh justice to those who would harm others.

With Spike, you get the bloody awful poet, love's bitch, the guy too stupid to leave Drusilla the very moment that he found out that she would never truly be his. The soulless killer. The monster who reveled in the fight, who was never really alive unless he was going fists and fangs with an enraged mob. The evil creature of the night who sought out and murdered two young champions, who tried to murder a third, but was never quite successful. Spike, the soulless beast, who wore the coat of a dead Slayer like a trophy.

And then he got his soul back.

And he was still Spike, the Big Bad, still the bloody awful poet, still the guy who reveled in the fists and fangs combat. Still the bleached hair, still the bravado. But he fights for the good guys, now. Still sarcastic, still a bit arrogant. But he's a Champion now. Still the swaggering scrapper who you immediately know can't be bullied or pushed around. Still the warrior with the soul of a poet and the heart of a lion. Still Spike.

And I wouldn't want him any other way.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

No to go off-topic, but this just shows how little you understand why we 'ship Spuffy. Just as so, I don't understand the appeal of Bangel.

You honestly think that the reason we like this relationship is because Spike is bad? Actually, I don't think Spike is that "bad." I think it's mostly bravado. After all, he's 'love's bitch' and a poet at heart.

What do you mean by "forgetting them"? Who? Spuffy?

Anyhow, this whole AR thing - we'll never agree. We see it differently. It's all good. I'm not delusional; I'll admit my Spike bias. Absolutely. He's my all-time favorite character, so of course I'll "excuse" what he does. Of course what he did disturbed me. Of course Buffy didn't deserve it or ask for it. And of course Spike was devestated by what he did. What what can I do? It's over, it's the past. He's atoned for it, he's made up for it, he HAS redeemed himself. I believe this completely.

I respect people when they they they can't forgive him because it hits home for them, or because it's personal. Fine. I don't understand the double standard, though.

Spike is not human. He acted human, had human modivations, feelings, exterior etc but he was not human. Angelus isn't held responsible for what he did. WHY IS SPIKE? *gets upset*

I didn't meant to say people like Spuffy because Spike is bad, I meant to say people love it because their relathionship is not that "I love you, now give me a smoochie" relathionship, it's dangerous, and it's not for classic romantic people, but to go off topic a little bit, 21 century romantic is little weird.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

And then he got his soul back.

And he was still Spike, the Big Bad, still the bloody awful poet, still the guy who reveled in the fists and fangs combat. Still the bleached hair, still the bravado. But he fights for the good guys, now. Still sarcastic, still a bit arrogant. But he's a Champion now. Still the swaggering scrapper who you immediately know can't be bullied or pushed around. Still the warrior with the soul of a poet and the heart of a lion. Still Spike.

And I wouldn't want him any other way.

Which Post Souled Spike did you see, cuz in season 7 he didn't revel in the fists and fangs of combat he ran away from fights. He didn't really fight along the with the good guys, he kinda hung out with them chained up in their basement. He was still sarcastic but not as much, he was totally bullied and pushed around, he was bullied and pushed around by The First, he was sent on a mission with Andrew by Giles.
Warrior in season 7 he was not, with the exception of putting his coat back on to beat up a demon in Get it Done, then be beat up by Faith until the Final fight in Chosen.

I think you need to take off your Spike beer goggles.

 

[Kelsey]

Which Post Souled Spike did you see, cuz in season 7 he didn't revel in the fists and fangs of combat he ran away from fights. He didn't really fight along the with the good guys, he kinda hung out with them chained up in their basement. He was still sarcastic but not as much, he was totally bullied and pushed around, he was bullied and pushed around by The First, he was sent on a mission with Andrew by Giles.
Warrior in season 7 he was not, with the exception of putting his coat back on to beat up a demon in Get it Done, then be beat up by Faith until the Final fight in Chosen.

I think you need to take off your Spike beer goggles.

Oh, you again! All you have to do is call Spike "watered-down" and this'll be the exact same debate we had before. I'm going to skip it, if you don't mind. My opinions haven't changed.

I'll make an effort to answer your questions, Kean, and I agree Spike is something of a Catch-22!

Alright, the reason I'm so drawn to Spike is how much of a paradox he really is. I never knew what he'd do next, good or bad, and I found it really interesting to watch him fumble his way through life trying to be both. He had a nature that was distinctly demonic, yet he loved the Slayer, and some part of him really wanted to be a man. My real Spike wasn't necessarily the end result--that is, the person he was in S7 Buffy and S5 Angel, though I'm proud of him for getting there. I just loved Spike's continual development, his realization that he loved the Slayer, the shift of that love from obsessive and creepy to giving and real, and so on and so forth. The instances of goodness he shows are amazing to me because he's not supposed to be good. This was a vampire who was slowly overcoming his demonic impulses, and I just found that facinating to watch.

And at the end of S5, I really felt Spike had made a significant change. He was fighting for the Slayer, protecting her, and risking his life to be by her side. Season 6 was hard on his character, perhaps harder on his than anyone else's. I know the AR is impossible to forget and almost impossible to forgive. As I've said before, I won't ever excuse it. But I feel like, because of this, Spike is judged more harshly than any of the other characters--all of whom had souls when they did what they did. I've listed their mistakes in my earlier post, but again, Willow forced Tara to forget and basically controlled her, killed Warren by skinning him alive, and then threatened to destroy the entire world. Are her crimes forgiven because they were acts of passion and she just lost control? Well, Spike was the exact same way.

Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was not a cold, calculating act of a demon; it was a man who was so twisted and deluded that he thought forcing himself on the woman he loved was the way to make her love him. Again, not an excuse, but there are other characters like Willow who are forgiven far too easily, yet us Spike fans receive flack all the time for forgiving Spike's actions.

My problem is just that. You have to make allowances for all the characters in BtVS. Angel, Buffy, Faith, Gunn, Wes, Willow, Xander, Anya--all of them have done terrible things, things that in reality we wouldn't forgive. Yet Spike receives the brunt of it, and receives it repeatedly. I'd really like to know why.

Spike being a demon is not the catch-all to his character, no matter how many times people say it. "Oh, he's evil, he's a demon, that's why he did what he did." That's really not true at all. Spike's actions in earlier seasons are demonic, of course, but later? All of Spike's mistakes are much more human in nature. Being selfish and trying to control the woman he loved, forcing himself on her--those are not demonic actions, and can't fully be attributed just to Spike being a demon.

I feel like if I wrote off other characters as easily as some people write off Spike, I'd have no one left to root for.

 

[Kana]

Which Post Souled Spike did you see, cuz in season 7 he didn't revel in the fists and fangs of combat he ran away from fights. He didn't really fight along the with the good guys, he kinda hung out with them chained up in their basement. He was still sarcastic but not as much, he was totally bullied and pushed around, he was bullied and pushed around by The First, he was sent on a mission with Andrew by Giles.
Warrior in season 7 he was not, with the exception of putting his coat back on to beat up a demon in Get it Done, then be beat up by Faith until the Final fight in Chosen.

I think you need to take off your Spike beer goggles.

Spike's reason for this behaviour is because (ironically considering the whole Angelus/Angel debate) he actually wants to seperate himself from the demon although he does this consciously. He actually states the reason he's different is because he believes it's what Buffy wants. When Buffy says she wants the old Spike back, he becomes the "old Spike" again. This to me was evidence of his change being from the outside in, unlike Angel who had the opposite inner change, even after he got a soul.

This further complicates Spike's identity issues, especially considering he's "not one for self-reflection". This was his problem in a nutshell. The whole morality issue was difficult because he's never been so clear which side of the ethical line he should stand without a soul and was using a depressed Buffy, who was using him as a escape route from her own problems, as a gauge. The odd thing is, in regards to the AR, is that Angelus would have never made the same mistake. I'm not saying he wouldn't have tried to do anything like that with Buffy, it just wouldn't be a mistake, i.e it would have been a very deliberate act of sadism. It clearly was in Spike's case. It's equally important to regard guilt after the attempt as well the act itself in terms of trying understand what's going on in his head.

 

[Kean]

Spike being a demon is not the catch-all to his character, no matter how many times people say it. "Oh, he's evil, he's a demon, that's why he did what he did." That's really not true at all. Spike's actions in earlier seasons are demonic, of course, but later? All of Spike's mistakes are much more human in nature. Being selfish and trying to control the woman he loved, forcing himself on her--those are not demonic actions, and can't fully be attributed just to Spike being a demon.

Thanks so much for answering these questions hun. I'm genuinely trying to understand Spike better because honestly, disliking him this much is hindering my enjoyment of fandom. I can definitely appreciate why you are endeared by him.

As far as other characters not getting their due amount of flack, I totally agree. Willow did some of the most horrific things ever committed by anyone in the verse and basically gets off with a wag of a finger and a trip to Rehab at the Rupert Giles Clinic. This really infuriates me.

Same goes for Xander, Giles and Buffy.

I don't know why others find it hard to forgive Spike but for me it is A) The lines between soulled and unsoulled Spike are extremely blurry and it is difficult to know how much of the man in the demon and vice versa.

B) What he did was a very human crime and has a resonance that is very personal not just to me but to pretty much every one around the world. It's easier to dismiss someone trying to end the world or draining someone because it is so based in fantasy that we are impervious to the emotional ripples it could create. With the AR though, we feel it on a visceral level, some people know how Buffy felt on that bathroom floor, some of us know how Xander felt being told that something so horrific was done to their friend. Spike's crime against Buffy was a human crime and it has garnered a human reaction. I would aslo suggest that the audience also craves human justice, which of course is impossible for Spike and maybe in a way it can be said that Spike actually gained from the AR because it pushed him to get a soul. What I can say is that the situation feels undone and still needing resolution, which just perpetuates these feelinsg towards the character.

And finally, C)In the words of W.B. Yeats, "He had done most bitter wrong to some who are near my heart". He made my hero cower on a bathroom floor and plead with him to not hurt her. I just can't forgive that. I really wish I could but I genuinely get upset about this, still. I've said it before but Buffy was the girl who walked into the darkened alley and kicked the arse of anything that went bump in the night. We had seen her kill bigger and badder big bads with abosulte ease, how he didn't leave that bathroom in a broom pan is still and absolute mystery to me.

Even if I know that it wasn't S7 Spike that did these horrible things, I still hate the version of him that did do them. I don't think I can change that anymore then you could change how you feel about him.

 

[white avenger]

Which Post Souled Spike did you see, cuz in season 7 he didn't revel in the fists and fangs of combat he ran away from fights. He didn't really fight along the with the good guys, he kinda hung out with them chained up in their basement. He was still sarcastic but not as much, he was totally bullied and pushed around, he was bullied and pushed around by The First, he was sent on a mission with Andrew by Giles.
Warrior in season 7 he was not, with the exception of putting his coat back on to beat up a demon in Get it Done, then be beat up by Faith until the Final fight in Chosen.

I think you need to take off your Spike beer goggles.

The post souled Spike who I saw in Season 7 was a man who was trying to be the man who Buffy wanted him to be, even though he no longer held much hope of being worthy of her. Because of that, he suppressed his violent nature, choosing to avoid combative situations, afraid to let the "old Spike" take control once more (maybe he saw that as his "Angelus" personality, and thought that Buffy would be repelled by it, but that's just a theory). Once Buffy made it clear that that was what she needed and wanted, Spike had no trouble whatsoever in obliging her.

And as for the fight between Faith and Spike, all I saw was Faith giving Spike all that she had, and him walking away from it. Both in the cemetery AND later in Buffy's house, Spike was never in any danger from Faith.

 

[VisionGuy]

Well yes, Spike was responible too and he shouldn't have done that. But Buffy isn't that innocent in this situation either, because the way that she just treated him awful and confused him was a cause of the attempted rape because she was using Spike for sex just to make herself feel better, and Spike was sort of confused.

I stopped reading after this post because it is nonsense.

Anyway, my thing with Soul Spike is that he acted so much like Souless Spike. I wish there was a difference in their personalities like Angel and Angelus.

 

[Eleftheria]

I have to agree with Kean about blurry lines between Spike with a soul and the demon. I guess Joss wrote this character in a very different way than Angel/Angelus. Angel/Angelus is like Jekyll/Hyde but Spike has the same behaviour, but with a soul he knows what is right and what is wrong. He is good, I mean, but his personality isn't much changed. I guess that's why Spike-with-a-soul is treated the same way as Spike-without-a-soul by some fans IMO.

Also, about how Buffy let him get out of this bathroom alive. Indeed there was a time, not long ago, that Buffy could kick the crap of any person who even tried to treat her like rubbish. That's what amazed me in that scene. At first she seems so defenseless and vulnerable like any other normal girl. Like any girl, like us. And after a time, she realises Spike won't stop and she uses her Slayer power. That's why that scene is so scary. Cause even Buffy, the supergirl, seemed so helpless.

I have said before that, s6 has been a dramatic change in Buffy's personality, cause she allowed herself to be humiliated, being taken advantage of, and the worst of all...she also did the same things to another person. The AR scene was the time for dusting Spike IMO. She had been strong enough to forgive him and go on.I am just saying old Buffy would have behaved differently.

 

[Kelsey]

Well, I confess that in hindsight I'm glad he wasn't dusted, but I do understand your point. In reply to Kean:

I don't know why others find it hard to forgive Spike but for me it is A) The lines between soulled and unsoulled Spike are extremely blurry and it is difficult to know how much of the man in the demon and vice versa.

Yeah, as I've said in earlier posts, that part gets me too.

B) What he did was a very human crime and has a resonance that is very personal not just to me but to pretty much every one around the world. It's easier to dismiss someone trying to end the world or draining someone because it is so based in fantasy that we are impervious to the emotional ripples it could create. With the AR though, we feel it on a visceral level, some people know how Buffy felt on that bathroom floor, some of us know how Xander felt being told that something so horrific was done to their friend. Spike's crime against Buffy was a human crime and it has garnered a human reaction. I would aslo suggest that the audience also craves human justice, which of course is impossible for Spike and maybe in a way it can be said that Spike actually gained from the AR because it pushed him to get a soul. What I can say is that the situation feels undone and still needing resolution, which just perpetuates these feelinsg towards the character.

I figured this had a lot to do with it, and I understand. I've even said that before, that Willow doesn't get as much blame because her actions as less real to us than Spike's. That scene in Seeing Red was so terrifyingly real, and the actors played it incredibly. I would never tell anyone who has been through or has seen someone go through that situation that they need to forgive Spike. I don't think I would even be able to if something like that had happened to me or someone around me.

Still, it’s frustrating as a Spike fan to constantly see Spike condemned when really, there are characters who have done things that are just as bad.

And finally, C)In the words of W.B. Yeats, "He had done most bitter wrong to some who are near my heart". He made my hero cower on a bathroom floor and plead with him to not hurt her. I just can't forgive that. I really wish I could but I genuinely get upset about this, still. I've said it before but Buffy was the girl who walked into the darkened alley and kicked the arse of anything that went bump in the night. We had seen her kill bigger and badder big bads with abosulte ease, how he didn't leave that bathroom in a broom pan is still and absolute mystery to me.

Even if I know that it wasn't S7 Spike that did these horrible things, I still hate the version of him that did do them. I don't think I can change that anymore then you could change how you feel about him.

Again, I understand. It's probably how I felt watching Buffy pummel Spike into the pavement for nothing more than wanting to protect her in Dead Things. I realize my hero's a bit (or, you know, a lot) more morally ambiguous than most, but he's still my guy.

I know it's sometimes a cheap avoidance tactic to say the writing was terrible, but.... well, the writing was terrible. In my eyes, Joss and Co. knew they were going to redeem Spike and have Buffy forgive him, and yet they still used rape as the catalyst to get it done. They did not use the subject responsibly or well, and it will never sit right with me. They made the scene frighteningly real, and therefore the consequences should have been frighteningly real, as well. As you said, they gave us a very human situation, and we as the audience responded in a very human way. And then they finished the situation with a vague, mythological and canon-specific conclusion, and I can see how that doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Again, I understand. It's probably how I felt watching Buffy pummel Spike into the pavement for nothing more than wanting to protect her in Dead Things. I realize my hero's a bit (or, you know, a lot) more morally ambiguous than most, but he's still my guy.

Perfectly said. I feel the same way. The anger and disgust that I feel from watching Buffy beat Spike to a bloody pulp in 'Dead Things' is the same way I feel in 'Seeing Red' - watching Spike attempt to force himself on her in an equally violent manner. Each scene is equally violent and disturbing.

And yes, it is difficult when Spike is one's favorite character. I can definitely identify with that. I feel like I spend the majority of my time defending him. He is morally ambiguous. He is complex and he does surprise us. He was beautifually written at times, and badly written at times. He's...Spike. You love to hate him. You hate to love him. He's perfect yet terribly flawed.

Perhaps Foster said it better then I ever could:

Spike isn't one of my favourite characters...but I really feel he was an amazing character and so multi-layered to the point it's hard to believe he is completely and utterly fictional. But when you look from William in the 1800s to Spike in School Hard to the self-sacrifice in Chosen and all the different things he went through to get there it's like WHOA. You can have a full on discussion/debate about Spike irrelevant of whether you like him or not- he has so many personal conflicts and a constant white knight persona that shines through and made us forget rather often that he was a demon at the core.