The whole grudge on Spike....

[Eleftheria]

I saw the talk about Darla and Angel...certainly it was a rough moment...Angel was truly dark there and violent. He wanted to be Angelus again. He wanted a life with no remorse.

There is a big BUT here...I didn't see Darla screaming for help, not for a moment. She was definitely surprised that Angel would actually want to have sex with her(since he has a soul and she is now again a vampire) , and she didn't expect him to "surrender" like she said herself. She is a vampire too, if she wanted to get away she could easily fight him back. She enjoys pain and Angel knows that.

They both enjoyed it. I never saw Buffy enjoying the AR not for a moment. In the past she has also "surrendered" herself to Spike, even if she felt disgusted afterwards. This time, her screams freaked me out so much, I wanted to get into the screen and call for help.

And about Willow...I also wanna discuss about her too. Her character disappointed me very much. And yeah, she does get away with things more easily than Spike.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I saw the talk about Darla and Angel...certainly it was a rough moment...Angel was truly dark there and violent. He wanted to be Angelus again. He wanted a life with no remorse.

There is a big BUT here...I didn't see Darla screaming for help, not for a moment. She was definitely surprised that Angel would actually want to have sex with her(since he has a soul and she is now again a vampire) , and she didn't expect him to "surrender" like she said herself. She is a vampire too, if she wanted to get away she could easily fight him back. She enjoys pain and Angel knows that.

They both enjoyed it. I never saw Buffy enjoying the AR not for a moment. In the past she has also "surrendered" herself to Spike, even if she felt disgusted afterwards. This time, her screams freaked me out so much, I wanted to get into the screen and call for help.

And about Willow...I also wanna discuss about her too. Her character disappointed me very much. And yeah, she does get away with things more easily than Spike.

Ah, Eleftheria, I love you. 😀 And I have to agree.


Actually, I LOVE Willow tons, but I'd be happy to debate about her! Plus, I don't think I've ever had the honor of debating with BECKY, so that will be fun. Opposite sides, who will win, lol. 😀

 

[GrrArghx]

Someone should start that Willow thread 🙂
I love Willow too, and while I think some of her actions are unexcusable there are some I will defend her for that others won't. 😛
It would be fun to discuss something else for a change without having Angel & Spike being compared 😀

 

[TheVoid68]

I think that Willow is blamed less for her actions because she was punished for it, while Spike was mostly unpunished. Willow manipulated her girlfriends mind, and by the end of the season said girlfriend was dead. Spike attempted to rape the person he supposedly loved, and a season later she was lying in his arms, him having the "best night of his life".

Willow may have also killed someone, but that someone was Warren, and to be honest was there anyone here who didn't want him to be flayed alive?

I also feel like, though Spike hunted down the Slayers, it's not his worst crime. Slayers exist to destroy his kind, so in a fight like that, either she would have died or he would have. She was fighting to kill, and so was he. But I agree it doesn't lesson the effect his mother's death had on Wood, and it was wrong on all counts.

But Slayers and vampires cannot be compared. They're not just two sides on a war. Vampires are evil. Soulless. Irredeemable. Killers. Save Spike and Angel, they are all evil and need to be killed for the safety of innocent humans. So I don't think you can justify Spike's killings of the slayers. He did it because he was evil, pure and simple.

Ahhh, gotcha. I think Spike getting his soul back was what caused Buffy to believe in him. And it is understandably a big deal--as far as we know, no vampire in the 'verse has ever done the same. When she said he "saw the monster in him and fought back," I took it to mean she believed in him because he made the effort to really, truly make himself a better man. But I do understand your impatience with her, even if I enjoyed it from my perspective.

I didn't at all feel that just Spike getting a soul is enough for Buffy to forgive him. It felt too quick. Plus, I think that Spike got a soul for selfish reasons - to try and win Buffy back. Not trying to bring the Angel/Spike comparisons back up, but him leaving Sunnydale at the end of S3 is an example of a selfless act - he knew they could never last so he left - while Spike getting a soul was a selfish act - he knew they could never last but tried to get her back anyway. I don't think that Spike earned forgiveness until "Chosen" (which was an example of a selfless act).

Ooooh, really? Very cool. I like to see fresh reactions. =)

It's nice to have fresh reactions. 🙂 In the space of around a year of gone from being vaguely pro-Bangel, to vaguely pro-Fuffy, to vaguely pro-Spuffy, ending up being firmly pro-Fuffy, mostly anti-Bangel and firmly anti-Spuffy. It's interesting to think about when and why this happened.

Understood. I generally side with Spike--it just happens, I can't help it!--but I get what you're saying.

I'm glad me understand each other. 🙂

 

[Kelsey]

I went ahead and made the thread! It's under Willow in the Characters section, and you can find it Here.

I think that Willow is blamed less for her actions because she was punished for it, while Spike was mostly unpunished. Willow manipulated her girlfriends mind, and by the end of the season said girlfriend was dead. Spike attempted to rape the person he supposedly loved, and a season later she was lying in his arms, him having the "best night of his life".

Willow may have also killed someone, but that someone was Warren, and to be honest was there anyone here who didn't want him to be flayed alive?

I'm not sure if I ever viewed Tara dying as punishment, though, and it also led to Willow's other crimes--killing Warren and trying to destroy the world. In that sense, not even a few months later Willow WAs hanging out with Giles/Dumbledore being taught the way to appropriately use the Force (whoa, lots of references in there). Not enough penance at all in my opinion, but I'll save the rest of it for the new thread!

But Slayers and vampires cannot be compared. They're not just two sides on a war. Vampires are evil. Soulless. Irredeemable. Killers. Save Spike and Angel, they are all evil and need to be killed for the safety of innocent humans. So I don't think you can justify Spike's killings of the slayers. He did it because he was evil, pure and simple.

Yes, this is true, but vampires and slayers are mortal enemies. Spike would have been dusted good and proper if he hadn't won. I guess what I'm saying is, I find it less of an offense because Spike's life was just as in danger as the Slayers' were. Whereas attacking and murdering innocent people I see as the worst crime, if you can separate murder into "worse" and "worst" catagories.

I didn't at all feel that just Spike getting a soul is enough for Buffy to forgive him. It felt too quick. Plus, I think that Spike got a soul for selfish reasons - to try and win Buffy back. Not trying to bring the Angel/Spike comparisons back up, but him leaving Sunnydale at the end of S3 is an example of a selfless act - he knew they could never last so he left - while Spike getting a soul was a selfish act - he knew they could never last but tried to get her back anyway. I don't think that Spike earned forgiveness until "Chosen" (which was an example of a selfless act).

While I do view Angel's leaving as a selfless act, I also viewed it as one that took Buffy's choice away. Not to bring up that whole other discussion, but I didn't necessarily find it one of the best things he's done. I know Spike getting his soul to win Buffy back is a popular opinion, but I don't agree with it at all. Spike was going out of his mind with guilt for what he'd done, and I believe he got his soul to make sure he'd never hurt her like that again. I think at that point, Spike didn't even trust himself. He had been saying the whole time how he loved her and would never hurt her, and I think he believed it. When he finally saw what he was capable of, he couldn't stand it. I don't think winning Buffy back was a big factor in there--it was much more about ensuring that he wouldn't be the type of man to hurt her.

I'm glad me understand each other. 🙂

Me too! I much prefer calm, rational discussions to heated, angry ones.

 

[TheVoid68]

I'm not sure if I ever viewed Tara dying as punishment, though, and it also led to Willow's other crimes--killing Warren and trying to destroy the world. In that sense, not even a few months later Willow WAs hanging out with Giles/Dumbledore being taught the way to appropriately use the Force (whoa, lots of references in there). Not enough penance at all in my opinion, but I'll save the rest of it for the new thread!

Well it's just hard to hate a woman who's crying over the dead body of the love of her life, while it's very easy to hate a man who gets to spend all night holding the woman he loves.

Yes, this is true, but vampires and slayers are mortal enemies. Spike would have been dusted good and proper if he hadn't won. I guess what I'm saying is, I find it less of an offense because Spike's life was just as in danger as the Slayers' were. Whereas attacking and murdering innocent people I see as the worst crime, if you can separate murder into "worse" and "worst" catagories.

Yes, Spike would've been dusted if he hadn't won. His life was just as in danger as the Slayer's, and rightly so. He was evil. An evil, soulless, animal, just like every other vampire save post-gypsy curse Angel. His unlife deserved to be in danger, Niki's didn't.

While I do view Angel's leaving as a selfless act, I also viewed it as one that took Buffy's choice away. Not to bring up that whole other discussion, but I didn't necessarily find it one of the best things he's done. I know Spike getting his soul to win Buffy back is a popular opinion, but I don't agree with it at all. Spike was going out of his mind with guilt for what he'd done, and I believe he got his soul to make sure he'd never hurt her like that again. I think at that point, Spike didn't even trust himself. He had been saying the whole time how he loved her and would never hurt her, and I think he believed it. When he finally saw what he was capable of, he couldn't stand it. I don't think winning Buffy back was a big factor in there--it was much more about ensuring that he wouldn't be the type of man to hurt her.

I guess it's down to our individual interpretations. But looking at Spike's line - "I want Buffy to get what she deserves/what's coming to her." - I think Spike was thinking entirely about Buffy when he got his soul, less about himself as a man. They're kinda interlinked, but I felt it was because he thought that Buffy would want him after he got it.

Maybe that's why Spike annoys me in the later seasons. He's all about Buffy. People always say he became a more complex character later on, but I feel he became less complex. He was all about Buffy. Almost all of his actions were motivated by him being in love with Buffy. It reduced his character to simply being in love with Buffy and not much else. I think it made him boring.

Me too! I much prefer calm, rational discussions to heated, angry ones.

Same. 🙂

 

[Kelsey]

I guess it's down to our individual interpretations. But looking at Spike's line - "I want Buffy to get what she deserves/what's coming to her." - I think Spike was thinking entirely about Buffy when he got his soul, less about himself as a man. They're kinda interlinked, but I felt it was because he thought that Buffy would want him after he got it.

Maybe that's why Spike annoys me in the later seasons. He's all about Buffy. People always say he became a more complex character later on, but I feel he became less complex. He was all about Buffy. Almost all of his actions were motivated by him being in love with Buffy. It reduced his character to simply being in love with Buffy and not much else. I think it made him boring.

I do think it's a bit of both where getting his soul is concerned. He says them both in the same sentence, actually, in Beneath You: "Why does a man do what he musn't? For her--to be hers. To be the kind of man who would never..." It just depends on which you feel was more a motivator to him, and that's definitely down to interpretation.

It is all about Buffy, that's true. I never minded, because I always felt Spike's love for Buffy was the best part of him. It's what made him develop, what made him change--loving her was how he gained redemption. I never found being motivated by love to make him less as a character, but I do get what you're saying. "Oh, he did this... because he loved Buffy. Now he's doing this.... because he loves Buffy."

Still, I find it really beautiful that he's so motivated by love. So many of them are heroes because they're selfless and hellbent on doing the right thing, but I always liked that Spike's motivation was closer and more personal. It doesn't necessarily make him a hero, but it makes his character, in my opinion.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I do think it's a bit of both where getting his soul is concerned. He says them both in the same sentence, actually, in Beneath You: "Why does a man do what he musn't? For her--to be hers. To be the kind of man who would never..." It just depends on which you feel was more a motivator to him, and that's definitely down to interpretation.

I think a huge motivation for Spike in getting his soul was a result of the immense guilt he had from the AR. But also, so he could be someone she could love, of course. That quote is very telling. I'm not saying that as the only reason, or by any means the first time he'd entertained the idea, but I think it was certainly the catalyst that drove him to actually go to Africa and get it. I think Spike had to hit rock bottom before he could go through something that drastic.

It is all about Buffy, that's true. I never minded, because I always felt Spike's love for Buffy was the best part of him.

I totally agree with this. Spike's love for Buffy made him a better man, and in turn, inspired him to sacrifice himself to save the world. Falling in love with Buffy was both the worst and the best thing he ever did. His love for her was so strong - "it burns and consumes" - it saved the world. I too have always been a sucker for the characters who are inspired/motivated by love. I don't see it as weak at all. Actually, I think the very act of loving someone fully is a heroic act. It takes vulnerability, courage.

It's what made him develop, what made him change--loving her was how he gained redemption. I never found being motivated by love to make him less as a character, but I do get what you're saying. "Oh, he did this... because he loved Buffy. Now he's doing this.... because he loves Buffy."

I basically just said the exact same thing above - but before I read this section, lol.

Still, I find it really beautiful that he's so motivated by love. So many of them are heroes because they're selfless and hellbent on doing the right thing, but I always liked that Spike's motivation was closer and more personal. It doesn't necessarily make him a hero, but it makes his character, in my opinion.

Nah, Spike's a hero in my book. Spike has all the attributes of a hero; noble qualities, has achieved amazing things, sacrificed himself for others, and is courageous. Today's fiction contains nontraditional heroes who don't nessesarily "fit" the archetypeal model all the time; they have Grey areas, they sometimes fall and pick themselves up and they make mistakes. But at the end of the day, they inspire admiration.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Dang it, I'm so late in finding this thread... and I feel like wanting to answer to so many posts. :sigh: So bear with me please if this post becomes half a book.

First of all, I gotta say that there's an important distinction between understanding something and excusing/justifying it. What Spike did in the bathroom wasn't justifiable in any way, but I find it perfectly understandable, and that's why I don't see it as OOC at all. It's the logical result of the dysfunctionality of his and Buffy's relation over the whole season, and Buffy is exactly as much responsible for all of that dysfunctionality and confusion as Spike is, so yes, Buffy carries as much responsibility for the bathroom scene happening as Spike does.

This particular situation though just gets under my skin because to me it the message it gives out that what happened in Seeing Red is acceptable. When I see, what I perceive to be a defense of those actions, I kinda go Cave!Kean! about it.

Which is right what I meant - it is not acceptable, but neither is it evil attacker Spike and innocent victim Buffy. It's two very messed up persons hurting each other. Birds of a feather, really. Which very much is a bad thing, but it's no worse for Buffy than it is for Spike.
The message in calling ot for understanding of Spike is not "rape is accetable". It is "using people to make yourself feel better is unacceptable, and if you do it, it will come back to haunt you" - and haunt it did, both Spike and Buffy.

Believe me, if Angelus had attempted to rape Buffy, if Angel came back, Buffy wouldn't touch him easily.Like she did with ensouled Spike.

Of course, you're overlooking the moment in "Beneath You" here when Buffy freezes up and shirks away from the slightest touch of Spike when their hands accidentally brush against each other at the hole in the ground. Perfect acting, Perfect realism.

Apply this situation to any other two people in fandom or out of it and I can will almost gaurantee that people would not be offering reasons why the attempted rapist did what he did.

If your friend/sister someone you cared about was in a destructive relationship where they both treated each other like crap and "The Boyfriend" tried to force himself on "her" would you think that she played her part in it and "wasn't innocent" in the attempted rape?

I'm obviously the "almost" in your guarantee, because, yes, I'd find said real-life boyfriend's action exactly as understandable as Spike, and the real-life girl sharing responsibility. And if the guy actually reacted to it like Spike did (i.e., immediately shocked at what he was doing and losing no time in going to remedy it), I'd very very much respect him for it and think of him as a decent, responsible guy fitting to be a role model. Seeing as Spike didn't even have a soul then and there, that makes him practically shine with nobility.

Stealing her underwear
Showing her what Riley was doing
Setting up his little shrine to her
Getting Harmony to role play
Chaining her up
Trying to kiss her in Fool for Love
The Buffybot
The constant innuendo and leering glances
His tireless pursuit after OMWF

In other words, he's caught in romance. Which is hardly any different from Bangel, now is it? With all the stalking and obsession, unsouled Spike really reminds me of souled Angel.

He had harmony role play as her, he stole her cloths and built her a shrine and as you mentioned Crush - not really great romance stuff there.

Absolutely, adamantly, unchangeably disagree with you there. I'm hard pressed to imagine getting any more romantic than that! (It simply shows that romance is a bad thing that messes with your mind!)

On Buffys part in the rape, I'm always a little horrified that people actually try and make excuses, or justify Spike in anyway for that. You can't say they had a violent relationship so Spike didn't understand, becasue none of the other times it happened was Buffy yelling 'No, Stop' and almost crying with horror.

Honestly your gonna compare the No's from before with the No's in seeing red.
If a No is part of a pleasure moan it isn't a big deal, if the girl is screaming No, while crying it's a little different.

I think without a soul, that's pretty subtle nuances. Buffy groomed him that "No doesn't mean no", so why should he care if she yells and cries? With no soul to relate to the pain of others, why should he think anything else than that she's just putting up a show, playing hard to get, as it were, and continue to try to "persuade" her, get through to her?
Seriously, it's a miracle, and a sign of his nobility of character, even pre-soul, that he cares after she kicks him off her.

Agree about the soulless thing, but thats the point I was making about Spuffys saying Spuffy existed in S6 when he had no soul and couldn't love, but choosing to ignore the Attempted rape.

Spuffy-as-a-love-story) went for a time-out in Smashed (it got ruined by Buffy's corruption of Spike - for which, let me make sure, Buffy is not to blame due to her clinical depression), and got restarted in the bathroom scene in SR.

If there's anything Spuffies should wish to ignore (which isn't a very Spike-ish thing to do, btw, it smells too much of the Angel/us schizophrenia 😀 ) it would be everything from the end of Tabula Rasa to right before the bathroom scene. Even though the scene itself is horrible, as a Spuffy I must say thank God it is there! It brought the love back into Spuffy.

And Wishing Oceans, Spike totally falls into the verging on Stalker / sexual predator category easily for any one of the things on Keans list. But most importantly you don't need any other example then the attempted rape in Seeing Red.

So does souled Angel. Get Bangel off the "true love" category, fast, and line up with me for "Bangel must die" if you intend to use that as a condemnation. 😉

I just wanna point out it's not Spuffy fans that make me dislike Spuffy, it's that Spike turned into a snore fest from about season 5 onwards

Exchange "Spike" for "Angel" and "S5" for "S3", and you got me there. My great beef with Bangel is, Joss took a relationship that, in S2, had moments on a par with Shakespeare, and ruined it by not letting it die when its hould have. by now, it's at a point where it's such a mess that it makes Steph Meyer look on a par with Shakespeare in comparison. But I digress. 🙂

But for this argument, the part I don't like is that Spuffy fans will go on and on about how great Spike was in Season 6, and how he was in love with her and one of the good guys. They'll say how Spikes was an anomaly in Vampire world because he kinda became the souled version of himself without actually having the soul. And then they want to be able to wave off the attempted rape, by whipping out the No soul argument, and I don't think it's fair to say the first part then the second.

And when you argue this point in discussion, it's almost imediatly followed by a, thats fine drop all the stuff from before he got a soul, it's from Season 7 on where Spuffy actually starts - but very few people actually believe that as in other thread they will be using points from season 6, or have banners with season 6 Spuffy moments.
[...]
(My final point on Spuffy fans, is when the argument goes on past the points above, the good old "The attempted rape was so out of character, and clearly just a plot device" - which only shows crazy delusions, becasue 1, totally in character - soulless killing machine, and 2, duh! everything is a plot device, but since he does it, that makes it part of his character)

I clearly don't fall into your categorizing, at all. Spike was not a great guy in S6. He was a great guy in late S5 and early S6, then got corrupted by entering a totally sick and dysfunctional relationship with Buffy (who carries 50% of the responsibility for everything happening due to it). And then, in the bathroom scene in "Seeing Red", which was 100% in character and a very human, understandable course of happenings, he becomes a great guy again by reaching the conclusion in his mind "hurting people I care for is bad, they deserve better than this, so I must change".

The bathroom scene didn't ruin Spike. It made him shine. It showed redemption material (indeed, champion material) in him the likes of which I never saw in Angel. There's nothing to wave off there.

And believe me, you'll never see me using anything happening between "Smashed" and the last minutes of "Seeing Red" as Spuffy pride. Spuffy began to show potential for beauty in "Intervention", then got ruined by a clinically depressive Buffy being a corrupting influence on the fledgling "goodness" of Spike (who, of course, being a.) soulless and b.) romantically obsessed with her, was horrendously easy to corrupt), leading to a handful of episodes that are painful to watch, and then, right at the end of the bathroom scene in SR, gets the spark back (see what I did there? 😛 ) of becoming inspiring and empowering again.

Sorry the last part I shouldn't have put in, to me the fact that he tried to rape her is what stops her from loving him. I think Spike spent season 5, 6 and 7 searching desperately for Buffys love and approval, and I think when she said it that she did mean it, but not in the way people ship, she was just saying that she loved him, and I think Spike at that point realized he didn't need to seek her Love, so it was ok that she didn't mean it in the way he meant, which is why he said 'No you dont'

Him trying to "rape" (see below for the airquotes) her makes her realize she can't love him, yes. But him realizing that it was a bad thing, and going out to get a soul and make amends makes her love him. Because, let's face it - if that doesn't make you worthy of love, nothing does.

And Spike did NOT "search desperately for Buffy's love" in S7 (even though it's a bloody adequate description of him in S5 and 6). A world of disagreement there! He didn't search anything from her, because he didn't feel deserving of it. He just gave his all, with no hope for getting anything in return... and of course, he got it all in return when he stopped the craving and seeking. That's just how love works. As for the "No you don't", I'm currently at the point of thinking that while being in the middle of the process of living love, Spike wasn't yet at the point of understanding love. (For the record: I very much disagree with Spike's definition of love as "it isn't brains, it's blood".) He didn't realize it was, indeed, purest, deepest, truest love Buffy felt for him, because a) he still didn't feel himself worthy of being loved, and b) he didn't yet intellectually understand what love is.

Perhaps this is a part of the show that may effect people that have experienced AR/R or know someone that has hence it is too much of a delicate subject to forgive. Just my opinion.

I've been on the receiving end of sexual violence, myself. If I had ever gotten a reaction of the one doing this to me that would have been even remotely like Spike's, I would have forgiven her instantly, it would have spared me years and years of boiling hatred. IMO, Spike is the best character ever having been on TV for someone who's had to deal with sexual violence.

Believe me, so do I. I wish everyday that there was a Spike(us).

Us fans of Spike weren't lucky enough to get a perfectly defined alter-ego that with Angel. One which we could excuse and justify every bad thing he did because he was "evil." Convenient, isn't it?

Oh no. Oh no no no no no no. Sorry if I'm sarcasm dyslexic there, but, if your meaning is literal, then, NO.
Thank God for no Spikeus. Spike being a continuous, unbroken character during his whole voyage, shows in hindsight what a cheap crutch the Angel/us schizophrenia indeed was. Angel/us is basically a two-dimensional character in black and white, while Spike is full blown, full color, realism.

And yes, this shows Buffy's attitude in the wrong with the "he has a soul now" in S7. It's not the soul that matters - Angel has one and is still a jerk, Warren had one and was one of the most terrifying and disgusting villains on the show; it's caring for the difference that the soul makes, caring enough for that to actually go out and get one. That's where Angel falls so short of Spike that they're worlds apart.


Now, as for the "rape" airquotes...

Spike did not remove any types of clothing. He did not try to insert anything anywhere. He didn't. even. do. anything. sexual. (granted, I haven't watched the episode in about a year, so, correct me if I'm wrong.) Rape is, without a politically correct definition, non-consensual sexual activity. This did not happen. Spike simply reversed the situation because that is all he's ever known of Buffy. Buffy, being the whore she was being, used Spike for sex. He was, of course, always horny and willing. When Spike wanted some relief, he turned to Buffy. Yes, he did get caught up in the moment and went way farther than he should have, but he backed off. He stepped away, he left, he was gone. He honestly seemed and looked disgusted with himself for even trying to hurt the woman he loved. Buffy never showed this type of emotion. She faced disgust, but at herself because it was Spike. Spike the nasty vampire, Spike: Angel's Mortal Enemy. Never did Buffy beat herself up because she was afraid she was hurting the vampire; she was just afraid for what her heart and body wanted.

I don't support rape. Rapists deserve to die, and should be removed from the earth. What Spike did, however, was not rape. He became obsessed with a woman whom he loved and was confused and lost and desperate and didn't know what to do. At least he didn't take it far at all, give him that much at least.

He could rape her if he wanted to. Spike against Buffy, Spike would clearly win. He also had ample opportunity to do so after the first "attempt", and decided not to because he loved her. As clearly shown before, Spike doesn't learn right from wrong very clearly.

And for Buffy to treat it as a rape attempt when there are thousands of real rape victims is in bad taste, just like members here treating it in such a way.

I wholeheartedly disagree with WT here, and still I stand with my airquotes.
It is ridiculous to think that Spike was intending anything else than to have full-on secual intercourse with Buffy there, against her will. Still, I think "rape" is too harsh a word for it, because of the implications it carries (evil attacker and innocent victim). Once again: Buffy was not an innocent victim. She spent half a season doing lots of things to bring this situation on herself. If you really want to use words like "attacker" and "victim" here, they apply equally to both parties involved - which, of course, leads to them being inadequate to the situation.

IMO, it is doing a disservice to rape victims to call the bathroom scene "rape" - that's where I find sort of common ground with WT - but not because Spike wasn't "doing what a rapist does". It's a disservice because it murks up Buffy's part of the responsibility (which, I think, she was very much aware of - that's why she didn't "play victim" in S7 and could forgive Spike!), and because it falsely accuses Spike of malicious motives that he does not have there. He wants to connect to Buffy, to make her feel again - nothing wrong with that motivation (in fact, it's exactly what Buffy used him for for the last few months); he does so through violent, aggressive sexuality, and he doesn't count no as no - which clearly is WRONG and UNJUSTIFIED, but which also is exactly what Buffy groomed him to do. Rape is the wrong word for it, and I'm certain Buffy knows this, too. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall her ever referring to the scene as "rape" - only Xander and Dawn do so, either of which are 3rd party people with their own motives who weren't witnesses to the whole story.)

And he clearly felt really bad for Wood too. :rolleyes2 Expressing one line of guilt isn't enough - he never even said sorry to anyone but Buffy.

Why should he feel bad for someone attacking him and trying to kill him out of vengeance? Wood definitely had it coming to him. Vengeance is not a noble motive, ever.

Should Buffy have felt sorry for Spike and apologize to him in the bathroom scene? If not, where's the big difference between that and the LMPTM confrontation?

OK, so Wood attacked him. Spike defends himself? Perfectly acceptable. Spike almost kills him? Wrong, but understandable. Not apologising for killing his mother? Reflects badly on him. Taunting him, telling him that his dead mother never loved him? Horrible, bordering on evil.

Nope. All of these fall into "perfectly acceptable" for me. The last one, btw, due to Spike's view of love. I trust that he absolutely believes it when he says Nikki never loved Robin. And telling a painful truth to a guy who just tried to kill you might not be exactly saint-like - but to call it "horrible, bordering on evil"... see you all in hell, then. 😉

- - -

Ok. If you actually read all the way through here, I'm thankful for your patience. I guess I've just redefined the meaning of "ranty post". 🙂

 

[TheVoid68]

God, I disagree with you so much in that post. I cannot believe the amount of people in this thread that actually believe that Buffy is "just as much to blame" for the AR as Spike. Buffy wasn't squeaky clean in S6, far from it, but to accuse her of being equally responsible for Spike's AR as he is is, frankly disgusts me.

As for the Wood comments - no, of course Buffy shouldn't apologise to Spike. Please remind me of when Buffy killed Spike's mother? I never said vengance was noble, it's just perfectly understandable and somewhat justified. And a "painful truth"? Spike knows jack-all about Nikki and her relationship with her son. He was just being a d*ck. I'm sorry, but anyone who decides to taunt somebody about their dead mother is, to me, a d*ck.

 

[InsaneMystic]

To each his own, I guess. If you pretend Buffy did nothing to get herself into this situation, and she's an "innocent victim", I wonder why you're unwilling to see Spike as the "innocent victim" of Wood's malicious assassination plot? Seems like anti-Spike prejudice to me.

As for the Wood comments - no, of course Buffy shouldn't apologise to Spike. Please remind me of when Buffy killed Spike's mother?

Don't be stupid. She didn't kill his mother, but she sexually and emotionally exploited him. That's what she'd have to apologize for, if we put the same moral strictures on her behavior as you put on Spike with Wood.

If she hadn't done so, I definitely don't see how Spike would ever have tried to force himself on to her. Not only because he liked - though note: not loved - her too much for that, but also because he knew very well that she's a lot stronger than him. Spike is not stupid enough to try to rape a Slayer, because he knows that if he tried to, he'd be one little pile of ash in no time.

With Buffy, however, he knew that "taking her forthrightly" is the way to get some morsels of affection from her. It had always worked before. He was going for sex, not for a rape, and made the very human and understandable mistake of confusing those two, given his history with Buffy, which lead to him causing her suffering that he never intended. That, in my opinion, is tragic, not evil. If you don't see the difference, I'm sorry for you. (And I don't mean that in a sarcastic or bemeaning way. I've spent far too much of my life in a black-and-white, condemning moral mindset, and I know life gets a lot better once you let go of that.)

And a "painful truth"? Spike knows jack-all about Nikki and her relationship with her son.

It's an irrefutable fact that Nikki didn't quit being a Slayer for her son's sake. That's enough for Spike's definition of "not loving him", so he was saying the truth to Wood, from his perspective.

 

[TheVoid68]

To each his own, I guess. If you pretend Buffy did nothing to get herself into this situation, and she's an "innocent victim", I wonder why you're unwilling to see Spike as the "innocent victim" of Wood's malicious assassination plot? Seems like anti-Spike prejudice to me.

I'm not saying that Buffy didn't put the ball in motion, I'm saying that she isn't to blame. Two very different things.

I don't see Spike as an "innocent victim" of Wood's because he killed Wood's mother. He commited murder. I'm not saying that that make's Wood's actions right, but it removes "innocence" out of the equation completely. He is entirely guilty of murder.

And please, please stop with the "prejudice" thing. I've seen it brought up too many time as a way to sweep all anti-Spike arguments under the carpet. Judging, analysing and debating a character based on the actions they took is not prejudice, it's just judice.

Don't be stupid. She didn't kill his mother, but she sexually and emotionally exploited him. That's what she'd have to apologize for, if we put the same moral strictures on her behavior as you put on Spike with Wood.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Spike didn't care that Buffy was sexually using him. He liked it. He followed her around after she stopped, begging for more. Spike wanted to be used by Buffy. Why should Buffy apologise for giving him something that he begged for?

If she hadn't done so, I definitely don't see how Spike would ever have tried to force himself on to her. Not only because he liked - though note: not loved - her too much for that, but also because he knew very well that she's a lot stronger than him. Spike is not stupid enough to try to rape a Slayer, because he knows that if he tried to, he'd be one little pile of ash in no time.

But he did try to rape Buffy. I don't see your argument here.

With Buffy, however, he knew that "taking her forthrightly" is the way to get some morsels of affection from her. It had always worked before. He was going for sex, not for a rape, and made the very human and understandable mistake of confusing those two, given his history with Buffy, which lead to him causing her suffering that he never intended.

He attempted to force her to have sex with him against her will as she vocally protested. If that's not rape, then I'm Queen Elizabeth.

That, in my opinion, is tragic, not evil. If you don't see the difference, I'm sorry for you. (And I don't mean that in a sarcastic or bemeaning way. I've spent far too much of my life in a black-and-white, condemning moral mindset, and I know life gets a lot better once you let go of that.)

Well I am dearly sorry that I don't often see rapists as being tragic, I guess once I grow into a less judgemental mindset I'll be able to see that they're really nice, well-meaning guys.

It's an irrefutable fact that Nikki didn't quit being a Slayer for her son's sake. That's enough for Spike's definition of "not loving him", so he was saying the truth to Wood, from his perspective.

Quit? Quit? Oh, so you can quit being a slayer now? You can just pop into the Watcher's Council and hand in your resignation, maybe ask for a couple of year's leave? Because I was under the impression that it was a mystical calling, that each slayer was chosen to fight evil and had absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever?

I'm glad you brought that up, because it really does show what complete and utter bollocks Spike was spouting.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

To each his own, I guess. If you pretend Buffy did nothing to get herself into this situation, and she's an "innocent victim", I wonder why you're unwilling to see Spike as the "innocent victim" of Wood's malicious assassination plot? Seems like anti-Spike prejudice to me.

Sorry to pop into your two's conversation, but I just wanted to say
yet again how much I enjoy reading your posts. You have such a different an interesting way of seeing things.

Don't be stupid. She didn't kill his mother, but she sexually and emotionally exploited him. That's what she'd have to apologize for, if we put the same moral strictures on her behavior as you put on Spike with Wood.

Great point. There can be "no" exceptions. Buffy should not get a "free pass", and neither should Spike.

If she hadn't done so, I definitely don't see how Spike would ever have tried to force himself on to her. Not only because he liked - though note: not loved - her too much for that, but also because he knew very well that she's a lot stronger than him. Spike is not stupid enough to try to rape a Slayer, because he knows that if he tried to, he'd be one little pile of ash in no time.

Again, this is a really interesting way of looking at the situation...

With Buffy, however, he knew that "taking her forthrightly" is the way to get some morsels of affection from her. It had always worked before. He was going for sex, not for a rape, and made the very human and understandable mistake of confusing those two, given his history with Buffy, which lead to him causing her suffering that he never intended.

I think I get what you're saying here; I have always felt this way as well. Although I don't blame Buffy, I don't blame Spike anymore either. There can't really be any blame, it just happened.

In this 'verse, A vampire without a soul does not have a conscience. Even Spike, despite this charades to prove otherwise. To blame Spike for what happened if as absurd as blaming Buffy for giving him the wrong signals.

That, in my opinion, is tragic, not evil. If you don't see the difference, I'm sorry for you. (And I don't mean that in a sarcastic or bemeaning way. I've spent far too much of my life in a black-and-white, condemning moral mindset, and I know life gets a lot better once you let go of that.)

I remember the first time I watched 'Seeing Red.' I wasn't angry, I was sad. Very sad. For both of them. I wondered what would happen next, I hoped Spike wouldn't leave. I think it's tragic, too.

It's an irrefutable fact that Nikki didn't quit being a Slayer for her son's sake. That's enough for Spike's definition of "not loving him", so he was saying the truth to Wood, from his perspective.

I completely agree. Spike told Wood that to egg him on, to make him angry so he'd fight. As Spike sees it, if a mother isn't willing to give up everything for her child she's a bad mother. It's just his opinion, not necessarily everyone's.

---------- Post added at 10:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

I'm not saying that Buffy didn't put the ball in motion, I'm saying that she isn't to blame. Two very different things.

*cuts in*

I agree. For me, I've decided to believe that NO ONE is to blame in this. It just happened. Of course we can't blame Buffy, but can we really blame Spike, either? It's like blaming Angelus for raping Holtz's wife.

I don't see Spike as an "innocent victim" of Wood's because he killed Wood's mother. He committed murder. I'm not saying that that make's Wood's actions right, but it removes "innocence" out of the equation completely. He is entirely guilty of murder.

I agree, Spike was a mass murderer. It's undermining Spike's ability to say that he was innocent in all of this. Don't forget, though, that Spike did allow Wood to live. Before the soul, Wood surely wouldn't have gotten that mercy. It was Buffy who told Wood she'd allow Spike to kill him if he threatened Spike again.

And please, please stop with the "prejudice" thing. I've seen it brought up too many time as a way to sweep all anti-Spike arguments under the carpet. Judging, analysing and debating a character based on the actions they took is not prejudice, it's just judice.

Ok, I understand that you don't want to be called prejudiced, but you can't deny character prejudice exists. I disagree that we use that to dismiss Anti-Spike arguments under the rug. Come on, give us some credit! Of course, you are under no obligation to like Spike, but you should allow him the same respect you show the other characters. He's an important part of this 'verse, he's an important person to Buffy and to Angel.

On the other hand, I've noticed, it's difficult to hide one's dislike of Spike if that's the case. And it's even easier to argue against a character when you already dislike him. Just thought I'd point that out.

{P.S. Have you watched all of Season 7 yet? Thoughts?}

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Spike didn't care that Buffy was sexually using him. He liked it. He followed her around after she stopped, begging for more. Spike wanted to be used by Buffy. Why should Buffy apologise for giving him something that he begged for?

I disagree. Spike absolutely cared that Buffy was using him. Despite, when you're in love with someone as he thought he was, physical proximity is always a good thing - no matter how badly you're being treated. Spike is 'loves bitch, remember? Love is pain for him. They go hand in hand. He's like an old Arthurian hero in a bad romance novel; for him, love goes with suffering. In "Gone" Spike actually expressed his desire to have "all of her" i.e. a relationship, but she refused. Spike always wanted more out of the relationship then sex. If you can't see that, I reckon you weren't paying too much attention to Spike in that season. 😉

Well I am dearly sorry that I don't often see rapists as being tragic, I guess once I grow into a less judgmental mindset I'll be able to see that they're really nice, well-meaning guys.

Well, I get insanemystic's viewpoint here. Murder and rape are tragic. All violent crimes are tragic.

Quit? Quit? Oh, so you can quit being a slayer now? You can just pop into the Watcher's Council and hand in your resignation, maybe ask for a couple of year's leave? Because I was under the impression that it was a mystical calling, that each slayer was chosen to fight evil and had absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever?

No one is saying Nikki should have quit. It was just Spike's opinion that her failure to do so equaled that she didn't love her son. I don't agree with Spike, and you don't have too either. 🙂

(I love you all, by the way.)

 

[Eleftheria]

In season 6 I have come to redefine many things about Buffy's character. I also blame her for starting that kind of relationship with Spike. I mean, if it was made in a light-hearted way, you know just for fun, two people have sex, no strings attached, I wouldn't mind much.

I am bother by THAT relationship;
The dark one,the painful, the violent(from both sides), the one where Buffy is taking advantage of someone's feelings and the one where Spike instead of helping her is taking her deeper into darkness and despair.

So I blame both. Noone takes a free pass for this relationship. But I don't give a damn if Spike wanted just sex in "seeing red". He didn't want just sex, he wanted to take her down in the darkness again. And he used violence against her. He ripped her clothes and he hurt her. That is of no excuse. And it made feel very angry, not just sad and disgusted, because Spike can't get the "free pass" out of this.

I disagree about the "Buffy being a slayer, so she would easily fight him off"...slayer or no slayer no woman has to go through that agony. And what if Buffy was so weak, she couldn't even defend herself? What if she was badly hurt? Spike would easily move on with his actions. He definitely deserved that stake in his heart at that moment.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

In season 6 I have come to redefine many things about Buffy's character...

I agree with everything you'd said. They are both to blame. to say Buffy had no part in this is untrue as it's not fair to blame Spike entirely. And as difficult as it is for me to say, taking the "rules" of the 'verse up to this point, yes I agree Spike deserved a stake through his heart. Her refusal to do so only shows her intense feelings for him, despite what he did to her.

 

[Willow-Tree]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Spike didn't care that Buffy was sexually using him. He liked it. He followed her around after she stopped, begging for more. Spike wanted to be used by Buffy. Why should Buffy apologise for giving him something that he begged for?

That you think that sickens me. NO ONE, and I repeat: no one, wants to be used, let alone BEGS for it. That's all I need to say.

 

[Allie]

That you think that sickens me. NO ONE, and I repeat: no one, wants to be used, let alone BEGS for it. That's all I need to say.

But he was a souless vampire, I think he wanted to be used by Buffy in any way she would. The same way he let Dru use him. I think he, like Buffy, wanted to feel something, because of them leading such dark lives they both wanted to feel something.

Love this thread, I had a blast reading it. Great points eveybody. 🙂

 

[Washburne]

That you think that sickens me. NO ONE, and I repeat: no one, wants to be used, let alone BEGS for it. That's all I need to say.

First of all. The show isn't always realistic. But lets disregard from that, I highly doubt that anyone would say they want to be used. But if you look around you'd be surprised, sad and possibly shocked by how many people acts like they want to. And yes even begging. Anything to get some kind of appreciation. But obviously they don't use the phrase "being used" but it's what it means. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to see it. But it's out there Daniel.

 

[TheVoid68]

I agree. For me, I've decided to believe that NO ONE is to blame in this. It just happened. Of course we can't blame Buffy, but can we really blame Spike, either? It's like blaming Angelus for raping Holtz's wife.

I blame Spike for attempting to rape Buffy, and I blame Angel(us) for raping Holtz's wife. And my opinion of Holtz is the same as my opinion of Wood - they are both understandable and justified in their vengance. The difference between them is that Wood gave up his vengance gig, while Holtz took it too far by kidnapping Angel's son. The difference between Spike and Angel is that I felt that Angel earned, or at least was on the way to earning, redemption and forgiveness for his actions. I don't think Spike earned (or started to earn) his redemption/forgiveness until his sacrifice in "Chosen", but was forgiven much before that, which seriously annoyed me.

I agree, Spike was a mass murderer. It's undermining Spike's ability to say that he was innocent in all of this. Don't forget, though, that Spike did allow Wood to live. Before the soul, Wood surely wouldn't have gotten that mercy. It was Buffy who told Wood she'd allow Spike to kill him if he threatened Spike again.

Yes, he allowed Wood to live. This is hardly a noble act, simply what should be expected from any decent person. "Not killing someone" isn't enough for him to earn forgiveness in my eyes.

And for the record, I thought that Buffy was being an unreasonable, blinkered, self-centred bitca in that episode.

Ok, I understand that you don't want to be called prejudiced, but you can't deny character prejudice exists. I disagree that we use that to dismiss Anti-Spike arguments under the rug. Come on, give us some credit!

I'm not saying it's always used by everyone, but it is used an awful lot. And used indiscriminately at that.

Of course, you are under no obligation to like Spike, but you should allow him the same respect you show the other characters. He's an important part of this 'verse, he's an important person to Buffy and to Angel.

I show Spike just the same respect I do everyone else. Hell, I absolutely love S2-5 Spike. My anti-S6/7 Spike views just come out a lot because threads like these are so common. If there were more threads debating Buffy's behaviour, you'd see a lot more of my anti-S6/7 Buffy views. This doesn't mean I'm anti-Buffy, or that I think she's not an important part of the 'verse.

On the other hand, I've noticed, it's difficult to hide one's dislike of Spike if that's the case.

Any views about Spike

And it's even easier to argue against a character when you already dislike him. Just thought I'd point that out.

True. Odd since he used to be my favourite character, which led to me defending his behaviour and characterisation to myself for a while, before giving in and hating his late-season characterisation.

{P.S. Have you watched all of Season 7 yet? Thoughts?}

My opinions on Spike, Buffy, Spuffy and the season as a whole are all the same - better than S6, but since pretty crappy.

I disagree. Spike absolutely cared that Buffy was using him. Despite, when you're in love with someone as he thought he was, physical proximity is always a good thing - no matter how badly you're being treated. Spike is 'loves bitch, remember? Love is pain for him. They go hand in hand. He's like an old Arthurian hero in a bad romance novel; for him, love goes with suffering. In "Gone" Spike actually expressed his desire to have "all of her" i.e. a relationship, but she refused. Spike always wanted more out of the relationship then sex. If you can't see that, I reckon you weren't paying too much attention to Spike in that season.

Spike might have wanted more, but that doesn't mean he had a problem with what was there. He repeatedly followed/stalked Buffy, begging for her to "use" him again.

Well, I get insanemystic's viewpoint here. Murder and rape are tragic. All violent crimes are tragic.

For the victim, yes, not the perpetrator.

No one is saying Nikki should have quit.

That's what Spike said. It's what InsaneMystic said. It's what you said.

It was just Spike's opinion that her failure to do so equaled that she didn't love her son. I don't agree with Spike, and you don't have too either.

But she couldn't quit! She was chosen by mystical forces to be the one and only slayer, she didn't have a choice in the matter!

(I love you all, by the way.)

I love you too. 🙂

That you think that sickens me. NO ONE, and I repeat: no one, wants to be used, let alone BEGS for it. That's all I need to say.

But Spike did want to be used. He did beg for it. Give me one episode between OMWF and Seeing Red where he doesn't beg for it?

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'm not saying that Buffy didn't put the ball in motion, I'm saying that she isn't to blame. Two very different things.

I agree. I just don't agree that you're blaming Spike for it. Like Joan says, there's noone to blame. Sh*t happens, and karma's a b*tch.

I don't see Spike as an "innocent victim" of Wood's because he killed Wood's mother. He commited murder. I'm not saying that that make's Wood's actions right, but it removes "innocence" out of the equation completely. He is entirely guilty of murder.

The same is true for Buffy re: Spike. She is entirely "guilty" of using and exploiting Spike, so that removes "innocence" right out of the "rape".
(And, just as with Wood, it doesn't make Spike right, but it makes his actions very understandable.)

And please, please stop with the "prejudice" thing. I've seen it brought up too many time as a way to sweep all anti-Spike arguments under the carpet. Judging, analysing and debating a character based on the actions they took is not prejudice, it's just judice.

If giving one character a "not right but understandable" free pass, and denying it another in a similar situation isn't prejudice - well hello Queen Elizabeth (see below), I'm Katherine the Great.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Spike didn't care that Buffy was sexually using him. He liked it. He followed her around after she stopped, begging for more. Spike wanted to be used by Buffy. Why should Buffy apologise for giving him something that he begged for?

But Spike did want to be used. He did beg for it. Give me one episode between OMWF and Seeing Red where he doesn't beg for it?

Have you even watched the same show? That's total nonsense! He wanted to be loved by Buffy, not used by her. Settling for some small morsel because you can't get the big package.

By the same logic, Buffy really only wanted a platonic friendship with Angel. I mean, she never once tried to have sex with him in all of S3, right? I guess she found out she didn't like Angel's bed skills in Innocence/Surprise. :whatever:

But he did try to rape Buffy. I don't see your argument here.

My argument is that he didn't try to rape Buffy. He tried to have sex with her, which tragically and accidentally turned out to be rape, despite Spike's will.

He attempted to force her to have sex with him against her will as she vocally protested. If that's not rape, then I'm Queen Elizabeth.

Pleased to meet you, your majesty. With Spuffy, violence and struggle and "no" doesn't mean rape. It's just sex.

Well I am dearly sorry that I don't often see rapists as being tragic, I guess once I grow into a less judgemental mindset I'll be able to see that they're really nice, well-meaning guys.

Like I said, I'm sorry for you living bound by such a moral mindset, and needing to defend it with sarcasm. Been there, done that, glad I recovered.

Oh, so you can quit being a slayer now? You can just pop into the Watcher's Council and hand in your resignation, maybe ask for a couple of year's leave? Because I was under the impression that it was a mystical calling, that each slayer was chosen to fight evil and had absolutely no choice in the matter whatsoever?

I'm glad you brought that up, because it really does show what complete and utter bollocks Spike was spouting.
[...]
But she couldn't quit! She was chosen by mystical forces to be the one and only slayer, she didn't have a choice in the matter!

Facepalm right back at ya. What stopped her from moving to a tiny backwater village somewhere in Minnesota and let demons be demons for a generation? It is a choice she had. The same one Buffy faced in Prophecy Girl. She chose to be the Slayer and go up to face The Master. She could have just split town and have Sunnydale go to hell. Hardly hero material, but a very real choice, nonetheless.

I blame Spike for attempting to rape Buffy, and I blame Angel(us) for raping Holtz's wife.

The difference, of course, is that Spike never attempted to rape Buffy.

And my opinion of Holtz is the same as my opinion of Wood - they are both understandable and justified in their vengance. The difference between them is that Wood gave up his vengance gig, while Holtz took it too far by kidnapping Angel's son.

Vengeance is never justified IMO (though it is understandable).

And - Wood gave up his vengeance gig? What show were you watching? He tried to KILL SPIKE, for crying out loud!?

The difference between Spike and Angel is that I felt that Angel earned, or at least was on the way to earning, redemption and forgiveness for his actions. I don't think Spike earned (or started to earn) his redemption/forgiveness until his sacrifice in "Chosen", but was forgiven much before that, which seriously annoyed me.

Going to get his soul, out of his own decision, is more noble than anything Angel has done to date.

Besides, as Giles so wisely said, forgiveness isn't ever deserved. It is granted because someone needs it.

Yes, he allowed Wood to live. This is hardly a noble act, simply what should be expected from any decent person. "Not killing someone" isn't enough for him to earn forgiveness in my eyes.

And for the record, I thought that Buffy was being an unreasonable, blinkered, self-centred bitca in that episode.

Killing someone who lured you into a trap to kill you hardly qualifies as not noble, so indeed, just beating the guy up and not killing him was pretty nice of Spike. I'd have had no complaints with him if he'd chosen to snap the guy's neck then and there. He had it coming to him. There's a lot of things to be disagreed with about Buffy in S7, but her speech to messed up Wood makes me give her a "Go, Girl!" every time I watch it.

For the victim, yes, not the perpetrator.

Which are words entirely unfitting for the bathroom scene. Two people tragically hurting themselves and each other. If you really wanna use words like "victim" and "perpetrator" there, they apply to Buffy and Spike equally.