Things you would change about Bangel story...

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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I am pretty sure I'm copying this from something I saw on the Spuffy section. What is something if anything you would change about the Bangel story. It could be a scene or an episode or a whole aspect of the relationship itself.

For me the biggest thing that comes to mind that I wish I could change would be in Sanctuary when Angel hits Buffy. This is so incredibly, ridiculously wrong. First of all, I don't buy that Angel would ever hit Buffy unless she was literally attacking him and he was fighting for his life. So many things he could have done, continued to block her punches, push her out of the way, restrain her, anything God but to punch her? It was so wrong and it broke character for me in a big way.
 
For me the biggest thing that comes to mind that I wish I could change would be in Sanctuary when Angel hits Buffy. This is so incredibly, ridiculously wrong. First of all, I don't buy that Angel would ever hit Buffy unless she was literally attacking him and he was fighting for his life. So many things he could have done, continued to block her punches, push her out of the way, restrain her, anything God but to punch her? It was so wrong and it broke character for me in a big way.
I never saw anything wrong with it so I wouldn't change it. Buffy, as the stronger one, is the man in this scenario and Angel is the woman. Angel, the woman, wanted to talk about what was going on and Buffy, the guy, didn't want to talk so hit the woman to shut her up. I will say this forever but imagine if Xander did that to Anya for example and the outcry that would follow. Whereas if Anya hit Xander people would just shrug their shoulders and if Xander blocked Anya's next punch and dished one out then people would only care about that part and forget all about Anya's first hit and her going to hit him again. The same is true for the B/A scene. Woman on man violence is just as wrong as man on woman or same sex because violence is wrong, period. Use your words, not your fists. Anyone has the right to defend him- or herself from being pummeled. That Angel didn't even do it on purpose but what to me looked like reflex while defending himself, whereas Buffy hit him deliberately and was about to do it again for no other reason than to get him to shut up and get out of her way.

As to the topic. Like I have mentioned before I would change the way the relationship is set up in both S1 and S2. S2 especially in order for the Angelus storyline to really hit home. I would have the 'meet-cute' and 'will they won't they' in S1. Not the way it was done in S1 with Buffy finding Angel cute, then mooning over Owen and back to Angel and suddenly she is in love by episode 7...what? Just no. Have Buffy moon over several guys and maybe even date or attempt to date because she is 15/16 over the course of the first Season and that's normal but have Angel be around the most and create conflict for Buffy in that she slowly falls for him. Then of course the additional conflict of him being a vampire. But have nothing definitive be stated about her feelings or his in S1. That can be done via looks and body language.

I would skip the stupid 'will they won't they' in S2. Have Buffy come back from summer break after being killed and change the ending of WSWB in that there is another scene after Angel hugs Buffy in which he talks about knowing how it feels and mentioning something similar happening to him. Then in episode 2 have her apologize for her WSWB behavior and the 2 of them admitting they really missed each other over the summer that she was gone. By the end of the episode have them agree to go on a date. Then have the date in episode 3. Basically I would do anything to get to the relationship of the WML/Bad Eggs/Ted stage early in the Season. This way it's more organic and not utterly crazy where we got from nothing to sex in like 4 episodes. It would also accomplish several things at once. We get a better idea of why Buffy is so broken up over losing him when he turns. We might even feel sad on behalf of Angel because Whedon would have actually had to develop him beyond Buffy's maybe boyfriend who helps sometimes but who we know nothing about except he broods sometimes and is a vampire with a soul. And of course the relationship itself would mean much more if they actually did have one for half the Season before he turns.

But that's really the main thing for me as a non-shipper.
 
I am pretty sure I'm copying this from something I saw on the Spuffy section. What is something if anything you would change about the Bangel story. It could be a scene or an episode or a whole aspect of the relationship itself.

For me the biggest thing that comes to mind that I wish I could change would be in Sanctuary when Angel hits Buffy. This is so incredibly, ridiculously wrong. First of all, I don't buy that Angel would ever hit Buffy unless she was literally attacking him and he was fighting for his life. So many things he could have done, continued to block her punches, push her out of the way, restrain her, anything God but to punch her? It was so wrong and it broke character for me in a big way.

I think the hit from Angel was Angelus like. I think that is why Buffy looks hurt because it reminded her of the blows Angelus delivered in S2. There is only one other time Buffy and Angel fought on any level and that was in the episode Angel S1. During the Angelus arc it was him and not Angel that Buffy fought with.
 
Being able to have seen more of the dates Buffy and Angel went on. We didn't get to see enough of that imo. A better crossover for Sarah Michele Gellar/ than the one in Sanctuary.
 
Being able to have seen more of the dates Buffy and Angel went on. We didn't get to see enough of that imo. A better crossover for Sarah Michele Gellar/ than the one in Sanctuary.

I'm torn on this. Of course I would have liked to see more Bangel. But I also didn't like when in Season 6/7 it became the Spuffy show. There are other stories to be told on the show besides Buffy's love interest.

I'm 100% in agreement we could have used better cross overs. It would have been great if they had been able to do SMH going over to Angel on Season 5. It's sad that didn't work out.
 
I would have Angel move to LA right after Amends. There was nowhere to move on with the relationship after that, and things just felt forced. I think it would have been a better conclusion to their story.
 
I've always hated when people spell words with numbers, so I'd lose Buffy's "Buffy + Angel 4ever" folder. *shudder* (And yes, I do text in complete sentences with capitalization and punctuation.)

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the existing Buffy/Angel scenes in S1, but I'd have liked more gaps filled in. When did Buffy tell Angel her name (or find out he already knew it)? Was there actual closure to the Owen/Buffy/Angel stuff, not merely pretending Owen never happened? When was the moment Angel acknowledged to himself that he had gone from merely empathizing with Buffy and wanting to help her to being in love with her? A brief Buffy/Angel scene in "Witch" and "The Pack" each, and an extra one at the end of "Never Kill a Boy on the First Date" could've smoothed the way for the sudden intensity in "Angel." His absence for most of the rest of the season makes more sense in context, but I'd never say no to even more Buffy/Angel scenes.

I'm not a huge fan of the unnecessary drama between them at the beginning of S2 either. It works in "When She Was Bad," but it didn't need to extend beyond that. How did it take until "Reptile Boy" for Buffy to even discuss coffee with him? He was clearly done with being aloof from the moment he found her dead in that pool in "Prophecy Girl," and yet he goes right back to waffling and mostly only interacting with her when he has information for her. From "Halloween" on out, it's great, though.

More sparring matches. They're basically the equivalent of dance scenes in shows with lots of fights, and I never get tired of them.

For S3, it's not so much a Buffy/Angel specific issue, but I don't understand at all why Buffy couldn't just tell the Scoobies (or at the very least, Willow) that Angel had come back. Why was she isolating herself? Why were they so ludicrously unsympathetic? They all understood the difference between Angel and Angelus and should've known Buffy would never knowingly do anything to unleash Angelus again. This particular problem (the "gang up on Buffy whenever her balance on that pedestal they've stuck her on falters" problem) began with "Dead Man's Party," but its effects are pretty far-reaching. Maybe it makes sense for Buffy to keep Angel a secret while he's still all beast-like, but as soon as his mind is back, why keep hiding for three more episodes? And most of all, WHY did nobody ever research ways for making Angel's soul permanent? Not because it would've removed an obstacle between him and Buffy, but because it would prevent Angelus from ever coming back. All I want is for them to have at least raised the subject, even if they found out it was impossible to do it.

A more Buffy/Angel-specific issue from S3 is that the waffling about whether they're dating like the beginning of S2 is back, now with even more melodrama! It doesn't bother me a lot (I mean, none of this stuff really does, or else I wouldn't have been able to ship them so fiercely for the ~12 years I've been a fan of the show), but there probably could've been a less melodramatic way for them to have relationship struggles throughout the season than constantly breaking up and getting back together. Like if they'd had more conversations like in "Earshot," "Helpless," and "Gingerbread."

From S3 on—well, specifically after the network change—, more crossovers. I like what I've imagined for the off-screen rendez-vous after he found out she was alive again in S6/S3, but I would've liked actually seeing it even better.

Most of these complaints I direct more at the writing and other out-of-universe concerns than at the characters themselves. I think many of these issues were because there's "supposed" to be a certain level of drama and they couldn't necessarily get David for extra episodes in S1 or get around the network issues for the later seasons and stuff. I do, however, have a couple of character complaints. Buffy has a bad habit of making terrible assumptions and stewing over them before she has all the information ("Lie to Me" and "Enemies" jump to mind), and she also lashes out when she's hurt, seemingly in an effort to make sure Angel's hurting just as much ("Graduation Day," IWRY a bit, and "Sanctuary" a lot). Angel's too prone to accepting blame to really call her out on that (at least, when it's in his own behalf—he'll readily call her out on her unreasonableness if it's directed at someone else, like Joyce in "Ted" and Faith in "Sanctuary"), but I wish other characters had done so a bit more, particularly over the lashing out tendency.

Fortunately I've never been able to see the comics as canon on the same level as the show, so I don't have to deal with what I wish was different with Buffy/Angel there (which would be basically everything). Maybe if Rebecca Isaacs had been the artist from the start, it would've clicked as canon in my head, but (leaving aside the story and characterization and everything else I didn't like about the comics for a moment) Georges Jeanty's style rubbed me the wrong way immediately, so that never happened, and by the time Isaacs came on board, it was too late for that. I tend to view the comics as a whole as being the endorsed post-TV series timeline, but not the only possibility for where things could've gone next.

But yeah, at some point post-NFA, I'd want Angel to get the Shanshu and for human Angel and cookies Buffy to live happily ever after with Claddagh wedding rings, babies, a mixed martial arts studio that's only partially a front for training newbie Slayers, and growing old together.
 
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Yes, less will-they-won't-they.
Yes, more sparring.
Yes, more corssovers.
And once the curse happened. It happened. Find a way around it and stop using it as the dead weight that it is. At least in the later seasons. Blah blah, perfect happiness... it's a moment that can't come twice.

Also, Buffy season 5, in Forever... have Angel stay Forever 😉 Ok, maybe not, Angel was still going on... but anything to get away from season 6-7 would be a good idea to me.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
And to get away from Season 3 of Cangel!
I would have Angel move to LA right after Amends. There was nowhere to move on with the relationship after that, and things just felt forced. I think it would have been a better conclusion to their story.

Dear God no this would make me sad. Late Season 3 was some of my favorite Bangel stuff. The ease in their relationship in Bad Girls, the way he takes care of her in Earshot, his speech to her in Gingerbread (which essentially lays out the premise of his show), the faith buffy Angel dynamic which I find compelling (narratively), and the Angel's first shot at helping Faith find redemption. Plus PROM....

From "Halloween" on out, it's great, though

Yeah I wish Halloween would have come a lot sooner and we could got to where we were at WML earlier.

And most of all, WHY did nobody ever research ways for making Angel's soul permanent?

Because Joss wanted them sexually frustrated. Joss is a cockblocker. Lol.

Like if they'd had more conversations like in "Earshot," "Helpless," and "Gingerbread."

Yes. See above re late Season 3 being my favorite Bangel stuff. It was much deeper, more complex, it showed a deepening relationship.

But yeah, at some point post-NFA, I'd want Angel to get the Shanshu and for human Angel and cookies Buffy to live happily ever after with Claddagh wedding rings, babies, a mixed martial arts studio that's only partially a front for training newbie Slayers, and growing old together.

::sigh:: don't we all. Instead she is parading around with captain peroxide in the comics. Joss is a bastard.
 
::sigh:: don't we all. Instead she is parading around with captain peroxide in the comics. Joss is a bastard.
I used to think differently but honestly I think Whedon just loves going opposite of what SMG thinks. It's kind of their thing. And SMG prefers Angel and Bangel so of course Joss prefers Spike and Spuffy. I also think Joss had a horrible experience with a pretty boy jock once, hence his hatred of Angel and the eternal punishment. I also think it's lack of talent, in that he never used B/A for anything other than big events that have to end badly. Largely because he couldn't ever pull off a relationship between them as they had developed as characters after they separated. Spuffy is easier, Buffy wears the pants and Spike is the dog in her lap. Bangel would be way more layered and complicated than Spuffy could ever be IMO which is of course too much work for Joss.
 
Dear God no this would make me sad. Late Season 3 was some of my favorite Bangel stuff. The ease in their relationship in Bad Girls, the way he takes care of her in Earshot, his speech to her in Gingerbread (which essentially lays out the premise of his show), the faith buffy Angel dynamic which I find compelling (narratively), and the Angel's first shot at helping Faith find redemption. Plus PROM....



Yeah I wish Halloween would have come a lot sooner and we could got to where we were at WML earlier.



Because Joss wanted them sexually frustrated. Joss is a cockblocker. Lol.



Yes. See above re late Season 3 being my favorite Bangel stuff. It was much deeper, more complex, it showed a deepening relationship.



::sigh:: don't we all. Instead she is parading around with captain peroxide in the comics. Joss is a bastard.

You posted what I wanted. I wouldn't trade all those wonderful Bangel moments for anything.
 
I also think Joss had a horrible experience with a pretty boy jock once, hence his hatred of Angel and the eternal punishment.

Except that Angel is a giant dork. It's DB that is the typical hot jock not Angel.

But yeah who knows why he dislikes Angel so much.
 
I used to think differently but honestly I think Whedon just loves going opposite of what SMG thinks. It's kind of their thing. And SMG prefers Angel and Bangel so of course Joss prefers Spike and Spuffy. I also think Joss had a horrible experience with a pretty boy jock once, hence his hatred of Angel and the eternal punishment. I also think it's lack of talent, in that he never used B/A for anything other than big events that have to end badly. Largely because he couldn't ever pull off a relationship between them as they had developed as characters after they separated. Spuffy is easier, Buffy wears the pants and Spike is the dog in her lap. Bangel would be way more layered and complicated than Spuffy could ever be IMO which is of course too much work for Joss.

It is interesting that Joss hates a character he helped create and was part of his show. I know they have word for that. I am happy SMG was and still is a Bangel. Joss has always given his viewers want they don't want.
 
I think their relationship seemed kind of rushed to me. They jumped from 'relationship status: complicated' to 'I love you' in a few episodes totally out of the blue for me. So I always get a little confused when it comes to them. I mean, when did they fall in love with each other? Was I not paying enough attention or that wasn't really specified? So that would be the one thing I'd change about bangel: giving them proper time to be a couple. Maybe show them doing couply stuff, or just the little moments that makes everyone go 'awww', or some scenes where they discuss their relationship... Basically anything that let's you know they are falling for each other.
 
Another thing I would change, I hate the speech about warming hearts in Helpless. I would change that, it doesn't speak to me and it's over the top.
 
Another thing I would change, I hate the speech about warming hearts in Helpless. I would change that, it doesn't speak to me and it's over the top.
I used to really dislike it too because I'm not a fan of love at first sight and it just didn't work with my vision of the pairing and it felt like a retcon to me. I have since made sense of what Angel said and I see it as Angel mistaking empathy for love because he hasn't felt anything for anyone in over a hundred years so of course it would feel very intense to him. I now enjoy it more because of it and that part also definitely helps :

Buffy: That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross.
Angel: (grimacing) I was just thinking that, too.
 
I would have them talk more, build up a friendship there as well. Helpless is great for that as Buffy tells Angel about what she was like pre slayer, and it's moments like that, the openness between them that are really good.

You get it in Lie to Me as well with Angel opening up and telling Buffy about Drusilla.
 
I would have had Buffy in You're Welcome instead of Cordelia.
I love Cordy and I do love that she finally got a proper send off and goodbye, but come on, we all know it should have been Buffy in that episode.
Also in the perfect dream that brings out Angelus, Buffy definitely should have been the one he was boinking in his dream and had the perfect day with. It made zero sense that his perfect day would involve romantic Cangel...
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
YES YES YES YES YES
I would have had Buffy in You're Welcome instead of Cordelia.
I love Cordy and I do love that she finally got a proper send off and goodbye, but come on, we all know it should have been Buffy in that episode.
Also in the perfect dream that brings out Angelus, Buffy definitely should have been the one he was boinking in his dream and had the perfect day with. It made zero sense that his perfect day would involve romantic Cangel...

I have been looking around for a fan fic that shows Buffy in "you're welcome" I think this would be fun to read.
 
Wesley nailed the nail on the head when he asked...whomever, if he/she realized how rare true happiness actually is? And how most people live an entire lifetime without finding it. I would have liked to have seen, or at least Buffy and Angel make reference to, trying to satisfy each other but in inferior ways after he came back from Hell. So Angel isn't completely happy with the, let's say action or intimacy, he and Buffy perform in S3. Their inevitable break up could still occur, even in the same way. Unless i missed that completely, and if i did someone point me to it.
After Wesley's line about true happiness, I always thought something to the effect of. "Why don't they just pinch or poke or do something else unpleasant. Before Angel, you know."

I would honestly, drastically change both Bangel and Spuffy from what we were given. But that would take to long to explain. The above is just something minor while letting the show remain the same.
 
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