Top Three Topics That Never Found Peace

[sosa lola]

These topics made chaos within fandom. They made fans fight, start clubs, change minds about characters, grow to massively hate some characters. The arguments when they start, never end, and when they end, it's always with the phrase "Agree to disagree".



"Kick His Ass"

This was probably the first storm in the BtVS fandom. Not only Bangels were furious at Xander's betrayal, almost all the BtVS fandom was. Xander started to lose fans, and websites about evil Xander began (with pictures of Xander with devil horns) Xander bashing was increasing, if not born, and never ending arguments took place in possibly every forum. I think the writers were too traumatized by the hostile reaction from the fans that they chickened out and dropped the storyline completely in S3 - which is a shame, if "kick his ass" was dealt with in S3, it won't be as infamous as it is today. Fans are still upset about it, and it's mostly because the writers never dealt with it.



"Spike's Attempted Rape"


I'm not sure if this is the second storm; however, no storm was as big as this one. Spuffy/Spike fans were shocked beyond belief that Spike would actually commit something so disgusting. It was preferred by many if the writers had Spike trying to turn Buffy instead of trying to rape her. Some Spike haters were thrilled, and started writing many pages about how rapists should never be forgiven, especially after Buffy seemed to forgive Spike in S7. Phrases like "Buffy had it coming" and "Buffy was asking for it" were the biggest reason why some fans were obligate to create sites in which victims of rape should NEVER be considered responsible for what the rapists did.




"Kicked Out of Her Own House."

Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy. Buffy's attitude in S7 was off-putting to many, and nothing like being kicked out of her own house to bring fans back to loving Buffy. After this episode, fans started to see how much Buffy had sacrificed and how much her friends weren't always supportive of her decisions and weren't always patient about her mistakes. The Scoobies are hated by many Buffy (the character) fans to the point where some claim that Buffy would have done fine, if better, if she didn't have the Scoobies by her side.

 

[Taake]

Very true, I've made peace with the first one but the other two still crawl under my skin and sometimes makes me want to skip during re-watches.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

True. Very true.

About "Kick his ass thing", that was wrong, and I never forgave Xander about that, but that's not the reason to hate him. I don't hate him, actually I love his character, just everytime I watch that scene I think "You little bitch!" ^^

I am Spuffy hater, but I'm not Spike or Buffy hater. But I was shocked by that scene, and I couldn't belive my eyes. That's not the reason why I hate Spuffy, but that was like a cherry on the top.

I never made a big fuss about kicking Buffy, but I was mad.

 

[Marisa]

The last one doesn't bother me as much I don't know why. I think it was wrong but I honestly don't think the core did it on purpose. Now the potentials were ungrateful but thats a different case. I will say though that I liked when Spike said how could you do that? I don't think they realized what they did. In the end all is good.

Now the first one always irks me, all I see during that whole situation is jealousy. I think we all know that Xander wanted Buffy okay but that is no reason to say "Kick his ass". That is what gets me mad because then we see Buffy and Angel having their moment, in the back of my mind I was thinking a lot of pain could have been saved if Xander hadnt been so selfish. I know Buffy still would have been upset having to kill Angel but at least she would have had a warning.

Now Seeing red is a tough one for me. When I watch it I get upset. I don't see Spike doing something like that so when he did it shocks me. I honestly look at it as a writers thing they wanted it but in my mind it is not true to the character. I think they wanted to show Spike was a monster yes he can be but he would never do that to Buffy so since they wrote that I explain it as Spike didn't know he was going to far with Buffy for a moment. Does that make it right no I just don't know how to explain this one I like to think it doesn't exist.

 

[Ruminator]

This was probably the first storm in the BtVS fandom. Not only Bangels were furious at Xander's betrayal, almost all the BtVS fandom was. Xander started to lose fans, and websites about evil Xander began (with pictures of Xander with devil horns) Xander bashing was increasing, if not born, and never ending arguments took place in possibly every forum. I think the writers were too traumatized by the hostile reaction from the fans that they chickened out and dropped the storyline completely in S3 - which is a shame, if "kick his ass" was dealt with in S3, it won't be as infamous as it is today. Fans are still upset about it, and it's mostly because the writers never dealt with it.

People really need to get over this one.

Angels fate was sealed the moment he pulled the sword from Acathla and nothing Xander could have done would have changed that, cause the spell didn't work until the last possible second anyway! Xander, instead of hoping against hope that somehow a weak and frail Willow would pull off a spell he had no way of knowing she could work (and which, by the way only worked by a seeming miracle), chose to give Buffy some measure of reassurance to do what she had (by the way) only finally came to the conclusion to do.... after a lot of people had died because of her choice not to (least of which, Jenny Calendar).

And somehow... this makes Xander a bad guy. It never made sense, and still doesn't. Apparently, Xander's crime was putting the rational decision that Angel must be stopped ahead of Buffy's emotionally stubborn desire to see Angel with a soul again.

I remember watching that at time with our "group" of friends who watched the show together, back when it was first airing.... and the reaction in the room was priceless. Half the room cheered while the other half (mostly the Angel fan girls) tossed stuff at us. Was a good time.

I'm not sure if this is the second storm; however, no storm was as big as this one. Spuffy/Spike fans were shocked beyond belief that Spike would actually commit something so disgusting. It was preferred by many if the writers had Spike trying to turn Buffy instead of trying to rape her. Some Spike haters were thrilled, and started writing many pages about how rapists should never be forgiven, especially after Buffy seemed to forgive Spike in S7. Phrases like "Buffy had it coming" and "Buffy was asking for it" were the biggest reason why some fans were obligate to create sites in which victims of rape should NEVER be considered responsible for what the rapists did.

This was another thing where I was terribly confused by the fan reaction. Spike was a soulless monster. We had been TOLD this many, many times. Why were we supposed to be surprised that, when confronted with an obviously unchangeable situation for him, he reacted violently and seemingly without thought. He had no soul!

For better or worse, the presence or absence of a soul is treated as a sort of moral panacea in the Whedonverse. Spike needed to be forgiven for those actions in season 7 the same way that Angel needed to be forgiven for Jenny Calendar's death in season 2. The presence of their souls means penance can be exacted by them, according to the world as presented to us on the show. That kinda was the point, why this became such a breeding ground for fan disruption is beyond me.

Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy. Buffy's attitude in S7 was off-putting to many, and nothing like being kicked out of her own house to bring fans back to loving Buffy. After this episode, fans started to see how much Buffy had sacrificed and how much her friends weren't always supportive of her decisions and weren't always patient about her mistakes. The Scoobies are hated by many Buffy (the character) fans to the point where some claim that Buffy would have done fine, if better, if she didn't have the Scoobies by her side.

I actually remember most people siding with everyone BUT Buffy. At least with the people I watched the show with at time time. By the time that had happened Buffy had so used and abused those around her that it was about time they stood up to her. I mean, was it not just the previous episode where Xander gave a dramatic speech about how much Buffy had earned his trust and faith, then he lost an eye, and Buffy wanted him to go right back out there again in the same plan? Yeah, clearly, he was betraying her....

Bonus points for this quote from Buffy too: "Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you." Proving that she was correct when she said history was not her strong suit.

You are right though, these things have wedged the fandom for a long time, and honestly, the reasons why have a lot more to do with personal emotion than reasoned breakdown of the situations.

 

[Marisa]

People really need to get over this one.

Angels fate was sealed the moment he pulled the sword from Acathla and nothing Xander could have done would have changed that, cause the spell didn't work until the last possible second anyway! Xander, instead of hoping against hope that somehow a weak and frail Willow would pull off a spell he had no way of knowing she could work (and which, by the way only worked by a seeming miracle), chose to give Buffy some measure of reassurance to do what she had (by the way) only finally came to the conclusion to do.... after a lot of people had died because of her choice not to (least of which, Jenny Calendar).

And somehow... this makes Xander a bad guy. It never made sense, and still doesn't. Apparently, Xander's crime was putting the rational decision that Angel must be stopped ahead of Buffy's emotionally stubborn desire to see Angel with a soul again.

I disagree I say this because first off it was Angelus. Another thing is Buffy knew what she had to do it is just how Xander did this. She would have done this regardless we see this because in the end she killed Angel. I think at first yes she couldn't because she was in shock who wouldn't be but by the time she needed to Buffy knew what had to be done and took care of it. Buffy went into that battle knowing what had to be done.
I don't think Xander was hoping against hope he never liked Angel he didnt care regardless if Angel had died. It would have been different if he was trying to be noble but IMO he was doing the opposite.

This was another thing where I was terribly confused by the fan reaction. Spike was a soulless monster. We had been TOLD this many, many times. Why were we supposed to be surprised that, when confronted with an obviously unchangeable situation for him, he reacted violently and seemingly without thought. He had no soul!

For better or worse, the presence or absence of a soul is treated as a sort of moral panacea in the Whedonverse. Spike needed to be forgiven for those actions in season 7 the same way that Angel needed to be forgiven for Jenny Calendar's death in season 2. The presence of their souls means penance can be exacted by them, according to the world as presented to us on the show. That kinda was the point, why this became such a breeding ground for fan disruption is beyond me.

I won't speak for everyone but I didn't see Spike as a soulless monster. He had qualities that some people don't have. He fought with Buffy to her death the first time, he loved her. After she died he stuck around to take care of Dawn. Can we say humans with "souls" would do this not all of them. So I think this is the writers mistake in this case. They build him up and then break him down and want to say he is a full blown monster IMO they messed up. So to me just because he didn't have a actual soul does not make him a monster.

I actually remember most people siding with everyone BUT Buffy. At least with the people I watched the show with at time time. By the time that had happened Buffy had so used and abused those around her that it was about time they stood up to her. I mean, was it not just the previous episode where Xander gave a dramatic speech about how much Buffy had earned his trust and faith, then he lost an eye, and Buffy wanted him to go right back out there again in the same plan? Yeah, clearly, he was betraying her....

Bonus points for this quote from Buffy too: "Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you." Proving that she was correct when she said history was not her strong suit.

I agree with this one I wasnt to upset with them for finally standing up to her it was a long time coming. Most people I watched with felt the same way.

 

[Ruminator]

I disagree I say this because first off it was Angelus.

Same person. You can't kill one (Angelus) without killing the other (Angel). As we had discovered, and knew all along, Angel and Angelus were always with each other. The distinction, really, is moot.

Another thing is Buffy knew what she had to do it is just how Xander did this. She would have done this regardless we see this because in the end she killed Angel.

She killed Angel because Acathla had already been released, she had no choice at that point. I'll grant that Buffy had the "Determined" walk going on to the mansion, but would that have faded if Xander offered her some slim hope of yet again trying to restore his soul? Hmmm... Buffy needed to be resolved on this, and thats whats Xander comment did.

I think at first yes she couldn't because she was in shock who wouldn't be but by the time she needed to Buffy knew what had to be done and took care of it. Buffy went into that battle knowing what had to be done.
I don't think Xander was hoping against hope he never liked Angel he didnt care regardless if Angel had died. It would have been different if he was trying to be noble but IMO he was doing the opposite.

This creates a double standard though. Buffy is not at fault for the lives lost by her choice not to stop Angel sooner, cause she was shock. But Xander, later on, WAS at fault while, in a similar state of shock after seeing his closest friends mercilessly attacked and kidnapped, he decided instead to resolve himself and Buffy against Angel as opposed to giving what he thought was futile hope that he could be restored. Basically, what we are saying then is, it is ok for Buffy to act hyper emotional and cost people lives because of it, but Xander can't do the same to make sure Angel is stopped.

I won't speak for everyone but I didn't see Spike as a soulless monster.

But he was. We were told that over and over again. He had no soul, and if he had no chip, he'd kill them all. That was the story line. It's the scorpion and the frog all over again, which was the point.

So I think this is the writers mistake in this case. They build him up and then break him down and want to say he is a full blown monster IMO they messed up. So to me just because he didn't have a actual soul does not make him a monster.

The problem was always force feeding him to the audience without proper definition. They wanted us to believe that Spike could wear whatever hat they wanted him to wear at that moment. Hero, villain, master manipulator, lover, philosopher, thief, criminal, and so forth. Building depth is one thing, playing scatter shot with them is another. Spike had been all over the map in two seasons that I wasn't shocked when he tried to rape Buffy, made as much sense with him as anything else. Not to mention the whole lack of a soul. I really believe the reaction on this one was largely based on the visceral moment of what he was doing.

I agree with this one I wasnt to upset with them for finally standing up to her it was a long time coming. Most people I watched with felt the same way.

It really was inevitable with everything that had been going on with Buffy and the gang to that point. There was no need to find "peace" from it cause it was an end in itself.

 

[dan k]

"Kick his ass" was a typical Xander comment and so it didn't take me by surprise. As a fan of Bangel i was frustrated he didn't tell Buffy that Willow was going to try again but it didn't effect me that much. Character do things that annoy me quite regularly and that comment by Xander wasn's something that deeply effected me.

With the AR scene i think it was needed to show Spike what he needed to do and for that storyline to develop. Some people look at the scene in too much detail i feel. Of course it was a terrible thing but this is a television show and it made sense in terms of where the character was going.

Out of the three Buffy getting kicked out of her house annoyed me the most. She had saved the lives of her friends on countless occasions, been proved right on near enough everything, yet they kick her out of her home. It was annoying but again i got over it.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

The "kick his ass" thing was never really an issue for me. Sure, it was dishonest and insensitive, but I don't really see it as a big deal. If Xander had told Buffy that Willow was trying to work the mojo, would she have tried harder to keep Angelus from raising Acathala? No. She was already doing everything in her power to keep that from happening. Xander's message wouldn't have changed anything by way of how things actually played out. The bad part of it is that it was insensitive, communicating to Buffy that he and even Willow didn't understand why it might be hard for her. But friends make mistakes like that. Everyone has said stuff to hurt someone else; Buffy's said it to Xander. As one example, she made fun of him in Dead Man's Party when she mocked "nighthawk." This "storm" really is just a spat among 17 year olds... I never saw it as the big deal a lot of people did.

Empty Places doesn't do much for me, either. I feel bad for Buffy, and I want to punch Kennedy in the face (but that's not specific to this ep), but it lead to some great moments and it allowed everyone to understand why they were wrong. Buffy understood that she had been too rash and didn't know the girls at all. The gang understood that Buffy was trying to do what she thought was best and they understood that she was a leader and they needed her.

The one that gets me is Seeing Red. The attempted rape. Unlike a lot of fans, I think it was absolutely in character for Spike. Yes, Spike was growing morals even without a soul, but those morals were based completely on what he knew of Buffy's morals. He made his decisions on good and evil based on whether or not she'd approve. That's how he was able to determine right and wrong. But, rape was never really something that was dealt with before. I believe he knew it was wrong. But I also believe that he didn't know the extent of its wrongness. Buffy also disapproved of kitten poker. It was only after seeing Buffy struggle and cry and be really, genuinely hurt that Spike understood the magnitude of what he had done. It was only then that it became apparent what an awful, terrible thing rape was. I can forgive Spike for it once he got a soul- he was different. I don't blame Angel for killing Jenny Calendar and I don't blame s7 Spike for trying to rape Buffy. I believe the AR was an important and well-executed plot device, and I'm glad, for the sake of the show, that it happened. I don't think it was Buffy's fault. I don't think she deserved it. I don't think she asked for it. In short, I don't really feel much controversy over the scene, although I can see where others do. However, despite my understanding it, I find it very difficult to watch. I cringe. I cower. I don't like this scene. And the flashbacks... later in the ep, in Beneath You... I don't like those either. No drastic changes came over me as a result of the scene, but that doesn't mean it's easy for me to watch.

 

[Icarium]

People really need to get over this one.

Angels fate was sealed the moment he pulled the sword from Acathla and nothing Xander could have done would have changed that, cause the spell didn't work until the last possible second anyway! Xander, instead of hoping against hope that somehow a weak and frail Willow would pull off a spell he had no way of knowing she could work (and which, by the way only worked by a seeming miracle), chose to give Buffy some measure of reassurance to do what she had (by the way) only finally came to the conclusion to do.... after a lot of people had died because of her choice not to (least of which, Jenny Calendar).

And somehow... this makes Xander a bad guy. It never made sense, and still doesn't. Apparently, Xander's crime was putting the rational decision that Angel must be stopped ahead of Buffy's emotionally stubborn desire to see Angel with a soul again.

I remember watching that at time with our "group" of friends who watched the show together, back when it was first airing.... and the reaction in the room was priceless. Half the room cheered while the other half (mostly the Angel fan girls) tossed stuff at us. Was a good time.

Well said. Before I discovered BtVS's online fandom I didn't even remember "The Lie". It's completely blown out of proportions. Also, it seems extremely hypocritical to see "Тhe Lie" being often cited as some unforgivable sin by people who are fans of say Anya or Faith or Spike-sans-soul. When Xander screws up much more in OMWF and ended up actually causing deaths, this largely got overlooked. Very weird, IMO.

Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy.

For me it was the point where I hated Buffy the most. From what I have seen few people changed heir opinions after Empty Places. Those who had sided with Buffy previously did that again, those who had sided with the Scoobs felt justified in their suspicions that Buffy had totally lost it.

This creates a double standard though. Buffy is not at fault for the lives lost by her choice not to stop Angel sooner, cause she was shock. But Xander, later on, WAS at fault while, in a similar state of shock after seeing his closest friends mercilessly attacked and kidnapped, he decided instead to resolve himself and Buffy against Angel as opposed to giving what he thought was futile hope that he could be restored. Basically, what we are saying then is, it is ok for Buffy to act hyper emotional and cost people lives because of it, but Xander can't do the same to make sure Angel is stopped.

Agreed. I find it utterly ridiculous to blame Xander for valuing the safety of the entire world than the slim chance of bringing Angel back. If Buffy fails it's game over.

Another thing is Buffy knew what she had to do it is just how Xander did this. She would have done this regardless we see this because in the end she killed Angel.

Somehow she didn't manage to do it in Becoming I exactly because she was waiting for the spell to kick in. Okay, maybe Xander should have trusted her more but considering what happens if he gets it wrong and she fails I can't really blame him for playing it safe.

Now the first one always irks me, all I see during that whole situation is jealousy. I think we all know that Xander wanted Buffy okay but that is no reason to say "Kick his ass". That is what gets me mad because then we see Buffy and Angel having their moment, in the back of my mind I was thinking a lot of pain could have been saved if Xander hadnt been so selfish. I know Buffy still would have been upset having to kill Angel but at least she would have had a warning.

If Xander acted because of jealousy only then we need to assume Xander is an absolute moron. Why? Chances were Buffy was going to remember his words and would have come back to accuse him of exactly what the fandom is accusing him. This would have blown to pieces any chances he might have had to win her love. Xander couldn't predict that the issue was going to be raised only in S7, you know. 🙂 Moreover, Xander has many reasons to dislike Angel, so even if we accept the interpretation that he lied not to help Buffy but to get rid of Angel, it's a bit simplistic to explain it all with jealousy only, IMO.

 

[Marisa]

Same person. You can't kill one (Angelus) without killing the other (Angel). As we had discovered, and knew all along, Angel and Angelus were always with each other. The distinction, really, is moot.

Okay I can see where your coming from her.

She killed Angel because Acathla had already been released, she had no choice at that point. I'll grant that Buffy had the "Determined" walk going on to the mansion, but would that have faded if Xander offered her some slim hope of yet again trying to restore his soul? Hmmm... Buffy needed to be resolved on this, and thats whats Xander comment did.

What I meant here is exactly what you said in your first sentence she went in there knowing what needed to be done if Acathla had been released. I was saying regardless she would have killed Angel whether Xander told her or not. I think to say she wouldnt is making Buffy look very selfish she is at times but not in this case. Also she would have fought Angel/Angelus anyways it is not like she was going to sit there and say "There is a chance let me just wait" if that was the case she would be dead. IMO thats how I saw it.

The problem was always force feeding him to the audience without proper definition. They wanted us to believe that Spike could wear whatever hat they wanted him to wear at that moment. Hero, villain, master manipulator, lover, philosopher, thief, criminal, and so forth. Building depth is one thing, playing scatter shot with them is another. Spike had been all over the map in two seasons that I wasn't shocked when he tried to rape Buffy, made as much sense with him as anything else. Not to mention the whole lack of a soul. I really believe the reaction on this one was largely based on the visceral moment of what he was doing.

I agree with some parts here I am going to say I blame the writers completely here. Also I think Dan K made a good point with maybe it was just to get Spike's storyline going.

Agreed. I find it utterly ridiculous to blame Xander for valuing the safety of the entire world than the slim chance of bringing Angel back. If Buffy fails it's game over.

It is not even about the relationship or Angel to me it is about Xander. He showed something that to me was well I guess you could say Xander selfish. I honestly IMO don't think he was thinking of the world or anything else at that moment but his dislike for Angel.

Moreover, Xander has many reasons to dislike Angel, so even if we accept the interpretation that he lied not to help Buffy but to get rid of Angel, it's a bit simplistic to explain it all with jealousy only, IMO.

Xander has many reasons to dislike Angel but I think characters that Angelus got to more were more mature than him in a situation involving Angel. I think it is as simple as that IMO he had a thing for Buffy he wanted Buffy he hated Angel there is a chance of hope he lies. It shows nothing but jealousy in my eyes. I will say this to me it didnt matter either way if Buffy knew she would have done what needed to be done to save the world, it is just the way Xander handled the situation that made him seem like a creep at that moment. What if it had been Anya would he have appreciated that? In season 7 he was quick to defend her what makes her different from Angel? She killed people but he tried to save her and held on to hope and called Buffy out. Sorry if went off topic was just trying to make a point.

 

[GrrArghx]

Kick His Ass: I'm over it. Look at Xander and Buffy's friendship post that. It's beautiful.

Attempted Rape: Spike got his soul specifically because of what he did. I don't see what else he could have done for forgiveness. The soul is such a huge deal in the Buffyverse and a soulless vampire getting one out of choice? Yeah, I forgave him. I'm over it. The only thing that bugs me is when people tried to make excuses for Spike or whitewash the situation.

Kicking Buffy Out: I'm not over it. I still can't bring myself to properly discuss the topic without growing intensely angry. And the last thing I want to do is have a discussion lit by my intense-Buffyfangirl-rage 😛

 

[Connor Holtz]

1. Angelus killed Jenny Calender, put Willow in the hospital and was on the verge of sucking the world into hell and Xander's the bad guy for telling Buffy to kick his ass? Not IMO.

2. Spike had NO soul. Spike is/was no different than Angelus whenever he committed horrible crimes. Most people seem to forget that Spike without soul is a different person than Spike with soul.... he just doesn't have a fancy new name to differentiate the two.

3. Honestly had no idea anyone cared about this til now. Buffy was reckless with the girls' lives and got many of them killed by Caleb and for some reason was trying to do it again. Buffy being kicked out wound up being the best thing because Buffy was able to grab the scythe and defeat Caleb all on her own. Had she brought the potentials, who knows how many of them would have died and I can even bet Buffy would have had to retreat again so she wouldn't have even gotten her hands on the scythe or defeated Caleb.

Personally, none of those things bother me now nor did they then TBH.

 

[dan k]

1.

3. Honestly had no idea anyone cared about this til now. Buffy was reckless with the girls' lives and got many of them killed by Caleb and for some reason was trying to do it again. Buffy being kicked out wound up being the best thing because Buffy was able to grab the scythe and defeat Caleb all on her own. Had she brought the potentials, who knows how many of them would have died and I can even bet Buffy would have had to retreat again so she wouldn't have even gotten her hands on the scythe or defeated Caleb.



Of course things worked out for the best but people were annoyed with how Buffy was pushed out of her own home after all that she had done for her friends and family.

She's led them well before and to discard her like that wasn't right in my view.

 

[Connor Holtz]

Of course things worked out for the best but people were annoyed with how Buffy was pushed out of her own home after all that she had done for her friends and family.

She's led them well before and to discard her like that wasn't right in my view.

She was going to get them all killed. I think it was right. Buffy wasn't thinking at all.

 

[Icarium]

It is not even about the relationship or Angel to me it is about Xander. He showed something that to me was well I guess you could say Xander selfish.

So Xander is selfish for putting the world before Angel's survival? Sure, you can argue he gets personal satisfaction from Angel's demise too but I really don't see Xander as that obsessed as to have this as his priority. In the episodes between Innocence and Passion he has a great opportunity to try to guilt-trip Buffy into trying to kill Angel ASAP, yet he doesn't do it. In Revelations he is at first tempted by Faith's idea to go eliminate Angel but later changes his mind and informs Buffy of what's going on. He could have simply said nothing and left Faith do the dirty work. He didn't. So IMO, the interpretation that Xander is some evil mastermind who would love nothing better than dancing all over Angel's ashes is not supported by the events in the show.

Of course things worked out for the best but people were annoyed with how Buffy was pushed out of her own home after all that she had done for her friends and family.

Except no one actually kicked Buffy out, leaving the house was her idea. Had she refused, the rest of the group would have gone to Xander's or some vacant house, I reckon.

 

[dan k]

Except no one actually kicked Buffy out, leaving the house was her idea. Had she refused, the rest of the group would have gone to Xander's or some vacant house, I reckon.

She wasn't kicked out but she was in my view eased out. Dawn is the person who tells Buffy she shouldn't be here. Before then Buffy isn't thinking about leaving. So i'd summarise that Buffy leaving wasn't down to her but it was what Dawn requested and the others did nothing to keep her there.

 

[sosa lola]

She wasn't kicked out but she was in my view eased out. Dawn is the person who tells Buffy she shouldn't be here. Before then Buffy isn't thinking about leaving. So i'd summarise that Buffy leaving wasn't down to her but it was what Dawn requested and the others did nothing to keep her there.

BUFFY
I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.

DAWN
Then you can't stay here.

 

[Icarium]

Don't get me wrong, I might dislike immensely S7 Buffy but I still think that only Faith of all people bothering to come after her to try to convince her to stay in the end of Empty Places was beyond ridiculous. I just think saying that Buffy was kicked out is quite misleading. It's not as if Dawn can force Buffy to leave, you know. 😉

 

[Thursday]

It was preferred by many if the writers had Spike trying to turn Buffy instead of trying to rape her.

Aren't they the same thing? In the Buffyverse, a vampire feeding has always been a metaphor for sex and/or rape. Then in "Seeing Red" it would seem that the writers chose the literal interpretation instead of the metaphorical one. The same thing would have happened both ways. Maybe the writer's chose to be more literal because it's more disturbing and raw, and would shock/disgust the audience more.