Top Three Topics That Never Found Peace

[sosa lola]

Don't get me wrong, I might dislike immensely S7 Buffy but I still think that only Faith of all people bothering to come after her to try to convince her to stay in the end of Empty Places was beyond ridiculous. I just think saying that Buffy was kicked out is quite misleading. It's not as if Dawn can force Buffy to leave, you know. 😉

It was super ridiculous! Faith follows Buffy and asks her to stay, instead of Willow or Xander? But by that time, I gave up on the Scoobies being key players, because only Buffy, Spike, Faith and Wood mattered by the end. It really sucks considering that Xander, Willow and Giles were there since the beginning and yet they weren't important enough to have a decent character send off.

Thank God for S8! At least Xander and Willow are treated like the important characters they are.

 

[dan k]

BUFFY
I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.

DAWN
Then you can't stay here.

Like i said Dawn's the one who pushes her out. "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster", i think she says that just to try and alert people to the severity of the situation. I don't think she's actually considering leaving the house, i think she's trying to get some support yet that support never comes. Instead she's forced to go with that comment which in my eyes she just said for effect.

 

[Connor Holtz]

Like i said Dawn's the one who pushes her out. "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster", i think she says that just to try and alert people to the severity of the situation. I don't think she's actually considering leaving the house, i think she's trying to get some support yet that support never comes. Instead she's forced to go with that comment which in my eyes she just said for effect.

You might be right but Dawn's response was also corollary to Buffy's statement. If Buffy didn't mean it, then she could have retracted it and stayed under Faith's leadership. IMO, Buffy left because she couldn't let go of the reigns, which is why she said what she said to begin with.

 

[dan k]

You might be right but Dawn's response was also connotative to Buffy's statement. If Buffy didn't mean it, then she could have retracted it and stayed under Faith's leadership. IMO, Buffy left because she couldn't let go of the reigns, which is why she said what she said to begin with.

I firmly believe Buffy left because Dawn told her to go. If she would have retracted what she said she would have looked weak and it would have undermined what little authority she had left.

The fact that she'd lead the Scoobies for years and always came out on top, kept them safe, surely that meant they would stick by her and not doubt her leadership after the first signs of trouble.

Faith didn't want to lead, her heart wasn't in in and so their decision to get rid of Buffy made no sense. Buffy had experience in terms of leading the Scoobies and looking out for others, something which Faith didn't know anything about.

If your talking about who was the strongest and most capable leader then it was Buffy without a shadow of a doubt in my view. Buffy had Faith's number in a fight and was more experienced.

 

[Connor Holtz]

I firmly believe Buffy left because Dawn told her to go. If she would have retracted what she said she would have looked weak and it would have undermined what little authority she had left.

The fact that she'd lead the Scoobies for years and always came out on top, kept them safe, surely that meant they would stick by her and not doubt her leadership after the first signs of trouble.

Faith didn't want to lead, her heart wasn't in in and so their decision to get rid of Buffy made no sense. Buffy had experience in terms of leading the Scoobies and looking out for others, something which Faith didn't know anything about.

If your talking about who was the strongest and most capable leader then it was Buffy without a shadow of a doubt in my view. Buffy had Faith's number in a fight and was more experienced.

First point, Dawn didn't outright tell her to go, she only replied to Buffy's statement that she wouldn't stay under Faith's guard. Dawn was merely staying get under the new leadership or you'll have to go.

Second, who cares who won a fight or who lead them before, the point is Buffy was being RECKLESS.... 100%. She wanted to recycle a plan she knew to be fallible. Had she lead those girls to Caleb at least half of them would have died, at least! Buffy wouldn't hear her friends tell her that her plan was fool hardy and it cost her leadership points. I, for one, would have told Buffy that she needed to check herself before she got everyone killed.

Lastly, it all worked out. Had Buffy gotten all the potentials killed, how would she have killed Caleb or stopped the First? She wouldn't have. Everything happened for a reason. Oh, and awesome Spuffy moment in that guy's house <3

 

[dan k]

First point, i agree but Dawn by doing that was giving Buffy no option but to leave. Buffy had just made a speech saying how she believed in her idea and knew it was right. What kind of leader would she be to suddenly drop all that and accept new leadership when she knew she was right. You would think Dawn would be supportive and get behind her sister, not force her out the door.

Second point sometimes you have to make an unpopular decision. Its what leaders do, they make the tough decisions. Buffy had always delivered in the past and there wasn't anyone else in that room who had a betetr track record then her. As demonstrated by what happened Faith had no clue how to lead, she was never comfortable.

Third point i agree it did all work out for the best. However that doesn't change my distain at how Buffy was treated after all that she had done for her friends.

 

[Connor Holtz]

First point, i agree but Dawn by doing that was giving Buffy no option but to leave. Buffy had just made a speech saying how she believed in her idea and knew it was right. What kind of leader would she be to suddenly drop all that and accept new leadership when she knew she was right. You would think Dawn would be supportive and get behind her sister, not force her out the door.

Second point sometimes you have to make an unpopular decision. Its what leaders do, they make the tough decisions. Buffy had always delivered in the past and there wasn't anyone else in that room who had a betetr track record then her. As demonstrated by what happened Faith had no clue how to lead, she was never comfortable.

Unpopular? Do you honestly believe it was a good idea to get everyone killed? Whether or not she realized it, she was lining them up to die. As for the first point, sometimes a great leader needs to know when she out of ideas and when it's time to let someone else lead.

 

[Icarium]

Like i said Dawn's the one who pushes her out. "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster", i think she says that just to try and alert people to the severity of the situation. I don't think she's actually considering leaving the house, i think she's trying to get some support yet that support never comes. Instead she's forced to go with that comment which in my eyes she just said for effect.

Buffy isn't forced to do anything. She bluffed, nobody fell for her bluff. Tough luck. In retrospect she probably should have tried a more adult approach than the tried and true (albeit rather childish) idea of threatening to take her toys and leave.

The fact that she'd lead the Scoobies for years and always came out on top, kept them safe, surely that meant they would stick by her and not doubt her leadership after the first signs of trouble.

Always came out on top and kept them safe? Like that time she went catatonic in The Weight of the World? Or when she fell for Angel's trap in Becoming I which led to Kendra's death? Or when she foolishly left Glory alive in The Gift leaving Giles to clean up the mess? Or when she couldn't be bothered to give chase to the Trio in Gone, resulting in the later deaths of Katrina and Tara? Or when she took too much pleasure in beating up Ted and the only reason he didn't die was because he was a robot? Come on, Buffy isn't infallible, it would have been a very boring show if she was. If it wasn't for the Scoobs Buffy wouldn't have survived even The Harvest, so keeping safe goes both ways.

Also, these weren't the first signs of trouble. In Lies Joss Whedon Tod Me Buffy clearly showed that for her Spike's comfort is much more important than the safety of her supposed "friends". She explicitly says she doesn't trust them and "only Spike is watching her back", why should try trust her then? If you ask me they tolerated her way too long actually. She comes with an idea that she has pretty much literally pulled out of her ass and expect everyone to fall in line?!

 

[dan k]

Buffy isn't forced to do anything. She bluffed, nobody fell for her bluff. Tough luck. In retrospect she probably should have tried a more adult approach than the tried and true (albeit rather childish) idea of threatening to take her toys and leave.



Always came out on top and kept the msafe? Like that time she went catatonic in The Weight of the World? Or when she fell for Angel's trap in Becoming I which led to Kendra's death? Or when she foolishly left Glory alive in The Gift leaving Giles to clean up the mess? Or when she couldn't be bothered to give chase to the Trio in Gone, resulting in the later deaths of Katrina and Tara? Come on, Buffy isn't infallible, it would be a very boring show if she was. If it wasn't for the Scoobs Buffy wouldn't have survived even The Harvest.

Also, these weren't the first signs of trouble. In Lies Joss Whedon Tod Me Buffy clearly showed that for her Spike's comfort is much more important than the safety of her supposed "friends". She explicitly says she doesn't trust them and "only Spike is watching her back", why should try trust her then? If you aks me they tolerated her way too long actually. She comes with an idea that she has pretty much literally pulled out of her ass and expect everyone to fal lin line?!

Not doubting she bluffed that hasn't anything to do with their treatment of her, i'am talking about Dawn telling her to leave and no one backing her up.

Everyone makes mistakes but in the grand picture of things Buffy nearly always came out on top. In season 1 she defeats the Master, in season 2 she stabs Angelus, in season 3 she leads the fight against the mayor and does it successfully. In season 4 the Scoobies get behind her and she gets the job done again, in season 5 she kills herself in order for everyone to live. The only season she didn't get the job done was in season 6 when Xander did but i think her ratio was high enough and warranted a certain amount of trust.

What gets me though is that the mantle was handed to Faith who like i previously mentioned didn't want that responsibility yet they forced it into her much like they forced Buffy out of the house.

Was Faith better equipped to lead them? Not for me. Did Buffy deserve the treatment she received? Not for me. Was Buffy right at the end of the day? Yes she was. Her feelings that Caleb was hiding something was spot on. You think they would have learnt by now that Buffy fought on instinct and when it all was said and done got the job done.

Of course like you touched on there were casualties, errors in judgement but Buffy recovered from them and succeeded in defeating near enough everything she faced. Yet its decided she doesn't know what's she's doing and that a slayer who went psycho and ended up in prison was a better candidate, that sounds bizarre to me.

 

[Connor Holtz]

Was Buffy right at the end of the day? Yes she was. Her feelings that Caleb was hiding something was spot on. You think they would have learnt by now that Buffy fought on instinct and when it all was said and done got the job done.

You still miss the point that had Buffy not gone alone, there would have been a very different outcome with a lot of died bodies on her hands and a possibility she wouldn't have even gotten the scythe at all. So to me, she was right but wanted to go about it wrong. She should have known that she had to go alone.

 

[dan k]

How should she have known? Anyway my main disagreement is how she ended up leaving the house not the actual plan. In my eyes she had proved herself as a leader on countless occasions, to treat her like they did just didn't sit right with me.

 

[Connor Holtz]

Because several girls died the first time they challenged Caleb and Xander lost his eye. We can just agree to disagree just like the OP said lol

 

[Icarium]

Sure, choosing Faith for a leader was ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, while I don't like Faith much overall I think that in the episodes from the Orpheus arc she was cooler than the whole Scooby gang combined in S7 but it's wildly implausible that Xander, Willow and Giles would agree to follow her lead. But since it's S7 where internal logic was all over the place the writers followed their insane idea that only Slayers are fit to be leaders and that was that.

This doesn't make refusing to follow Buffy the wrong decision, though. It's not as if the idea was tu put faith in charge, the idea was that they had had enough of Buffy. Faith only becomes a leader after some time passes from the next episode.

Was Buffy right at the end of the day? Yes she was. Her feelings that Caleb was hiding something was spot on. You think they would have learnt by now that Buffy fought on instinct and when it all was said and done got the job done.

In the past Buffy relied on her brain to come up with plans, not on premonitions and nonsense like "the bad guys are where the power is". She sees Caleb in the school, very close to the seal yet somehow concludes he isn't protecting the seal. Last episode she was sure Caleb was luring her into a trap, now she is sure the place of the trap is actually a place of great power because...I don't know, the itching in her big toe told her? I find it rather hard to expect the Scoobs to believe Buffy when her idea hinges on Caleb being the biggest moron in the history of the universe - of all the vacant buildings in the town he picked exactly the one where the Scythe was buried to make his trap. Just because the writers were incompetent enough to portray Caleb and his boss as that stupid later on doesn't mean the character should know and believe that. Imagine if in Graduation Day there was no Anya telling them about a previous ascension and no one knew about the Mayor's bond with Faith. If Buffy had come up with the plan we ended up seeing I doubt it would have been accepted so readily. The writers skipped tons of setup. They wanted to make Buffy sound right but didn't do their homework.

 

[Tome]

OH MY GOD! How can you say the kick Buffy out of HER house scene isn't big B? That scene always piss me off so much. These ungrateful little bitcas turn up against the girl who saved their asses countless times. Giles who is the oldest person in the room(and by so should show some wisdom at the least) act as a moaning and jealous child. He is Buffy's watcher and he doesn't even side with her in one of the most important moments of their lifes... It DISGUST me.

Then you got Dawn who got her life saved by her 'sister' many, many times. Buffy gave her life for her, while she wasn't even really her sister. There's ZERO excuses to do something like that to her. The potentials fine, they are whiny and they don't know Buffy much. Robin and Faith, I could understand too. Xander, he just lost an eye, obviously his trust is shaky at the moment. But Willow, Giles, Dawn and Anya(god do I dislike her in that scene)??

Terrible scene. At least Spike put them in their places later on, mostly Giles though... I wish we had seen Dawn being put in her place too -.-

 

[Anya2012]

I'm a Spuffy hater and the scene also shocked me. I didn't like Spike when he was supposedly in love with Buffy it made him weak.

I hated Xander ever since his "kick his ass" line. I still don't forgive him.

And Dawn...will never forgive her either.

 

[Connor Holtz]

OH MY GOD! How can you say the kick Buffy out of HER house scene isn't big B? That scene always piss me off so much. These ungrateful little bitcas turn up against the girl who saved their asses countless times. Giles who is the oldest person in the room(and by so should show some wisdom at the least) act as a moaning and jealous child. He is Buffy's watcher and he doesn't even side with her in one of the most important moments of their lifes... It DISGUST me.

Then you got Dawn who got her life saved by her 'sister' many, many times. Buffy gave her life for her, while she wasn't even really her sister. There's ZERO excuses to do something like that to her. The potentials fine, they are whiny and they don't know Buffy much. Robin and Faith, I could understand too. Xander, he just lost an eye, obviously his trust is shaky at the moment. But Willow, Giles, Dawn and Anya(god do I dislike her in that scene)??

Terrible scene. At least Spike put them in their places later on, mostly Giles though... I wish we had seen Dawn being put in her place too -.-

I've gone in circles about this already... the only thing I have to say is if you were the potentials/Giles/Dawn, you would have stood up to her too. Buffy wasn't using her head and she was leading them to an execution.

 

[Tome]

Xander was being jealous. I didn't see it as a noble thing at all. But it isn't that big of a deal... All the characters have done worse than that in the show.

Spike attempted rape... It's disturbing(as it should be), but I wasn't surprise because Spike has no soul, and he wanted something and couldn't get it. His conscience isn't there to tell him not to do it. What is out of place in that scene??

 

[Connor Holtz]

Xander was being jealous. I didn't see it as a noble thing at all. But it isn't that big of a deal... All the characters have done worse than that in the show.

Spike attempted rape... It's disturbing(as it should be), but I wasn't surprise because Spike has no soul, and he wanted something and couldn't get it. His conscience isn't there to tell him not to do it. What is out of place in that scene??

I agree with Spike's no soul.

 

[MandaMeena]

I'll make this simple.

1. I've been ticked at Xander for worse things.
2. Makes me sick, but I still respect Spike as a character. Strange...
3. People need to get with the program. Buffy=Slayer. Respect that.

 

[Tome]

What is out of place in that scene??

Actually what is out of place in that scene is Buffy being weak SUDDENLY. This was one of the few times in the show where it felt to me as if it was just to move the plot along... Bruised or not, she could have easily pushed him off at the least.