Top Three Topics That Never Found Peace

Yes, Faith, though a great fighter, is not the best leader. Sure, she did what she could in leading those girls down to fight (before they all got blown up), but Buffy will always be the one to follow into the battle that counts.
 
Xander's comment, "Kick his ass," was perfectly indicative of the fact that he had lost all trust in Buffy's vampire boyfriend, whether he chose to call himself Angelus or Angel. Whether there was residual jealousy included is anyone's guess, but I really couldn't have seen him saying anything else.

Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was, of course, the low point of their entire relationship, and a very upsetting thing for all fans, whether they supported Spuffy or not, to watch without feeling slightly sickened and betrayed. It was, however, without any doubt, the best way to illustrate the turning point in the life of one of the most interesting characters in the entire series. Spike had told Buffy the season before, "I know that you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster..." Somewhere between that moment and the AR scene, I think that he had forgotten that, at least to some extent. He remembered in that moment. Without that reminder of what he truly was, without the realization of what it meant to someone who he genuinely, to the full extent of his very being and beyond, loved, he would never have undertaken the nearly inconceivable task of fighting for and earning the restoration of his soul.

I agree that there should have been a meeting in private with Faith and the Scoobies upon Buffy's return after being thrown out. She should have issued a very simple statement, no speech required. "My way or the highway. Your choice, and no hard feelings whatever you decide, but in this house, I'm the one in charge, I make the final decisions, and anyone who chooses to live here, under my protection, eating my food, abides by those decisions." Armys aren't run by committees, and soldiers don't take a vote on whether or not they are required to go in harm's way.
 
1. The 'kick his arse' Xander thing doesn't piss me off quite as much as it seems to piss everyone else off. And I don't like Xander. Yes, he was jealous of Bangel, yes, he didn't want them to get back together. Does this make what he said any worse then if he didn't feel that way? No. I believe that although the motivation behind what he said was dubious, what he said is not exactly a bad thing. Buffy never would have been able to fight Angelus with the same venom if she was waiting for Willow's spell to work (and lets try to remember, at this point, Willow had not proven herself to be any good at witchcraft).

It angers me that it was never dealt with. What happened definitely should have been bought up. Until Selfless ("I didn't say that") I assumed that it had been dealt with offscreen, but the fact that it was never bought up is just plain ludicrous. Buffy obviously knows that Willow did the spell to change Angelus to Angel. Buffy knows that Xander came along with a message of "Kick His Ass". Did she not put two and two together? Or at least talk about it with Willow?

2. I like to pretend the AR didn't happen myself... I live firmly in the land of denial. Okay... So maybe that is being a little silly of me. I know it happened, I know it was horrible, it summed up why Buffy and Spike could never be together, and reminded the audience that although Spike was no longer killing people, he still was not the man for Buffy. No one EVER "asks for" rape... But I do wish that it was dealt with in a more Buffy way (her kicking him off earlier). It wasn't the first time sex had been incredibly rough between them, so I see no reason why Buffy was quite so shocked. They had sex whilst beating each other up, in handcuffs (rough enough to leave some brutal marks), and Spike doesn't have a soul. Although it doesn't make the AR right, it certainly was the next step in Buffy and Spikes relationship.

3. I. Hate. The. Scoobies. (In this scene at least) It actually makes me want to scream. At the scoobies. At the writers. At the potentials. The potentials act like spoilt brats. The scoobies act like they had no choice, and no idea what they were getting into when they teamed up with Buffy to be her friend and slayerette. The writers? Is this really what 6 years of hard work characterising some wonderful characters was worth? A throw away scene at the end of the series? Probably, in my opinion, the crappiest piece of writing to come out of BtVS. I understand that other people don't always agree with me though, so fair enough if you disagree!
 
Am I the only one who sees that the scoobies/potentials have the right to go against Buffy if she foolishly decides to throw them into a situation that no one but the slayer should be put in? I honestly don't get the hero worship. Buffy isn't a God but yet it seems to me that some think because she says 'You're gonna kill yourself for the greater good because I said so' they don't have the right to say no. It baffles me to be honest.

---------- Post added at 03:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 AM ----------

I just wanna add, sorry if that sounded hostile. I didn't mean it to. I'm genuinely curious if others view this as I do. (I hate this 15 minute edit rule lol)
 
Am I the only one who sees that the scoobies/potentials have the right to go against Buffy if she foolishly decides to throw them into a situation that no one but the slayer should be put in? I honestly don't get the hero worship. Buffy isn't a God but yet it seems to me that some think because she says 'You're gonna kill yourself for the greater good because I said so' they don't have the right to say no. It baffles me to be honest.

It's not about hero worship, it's about her not being allowed to make mistakes. It's simple - you lead people into battle and they die, shit happens. Not every plan will go smoothly, some villains will be more than you can handle, and Buffy made a mistake. By no means does that give them the moral superiority over her nor any right to kick her out of her own house.

Did no one listen to the little speech Xander gave on why she's earned their respect?
Darn right she has. And no snot faced little potential, ingrateful brat sister or grumpy ex-demon can claim that they would have done it better. Buffy is not infallible but they are far from it themselves, so who the heck are they to judge.
 
D
dan k
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Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
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Connor Holtz
Connor Holtz
It was't about doing it better or the scoobies being infallible, it was about Buffy thinking she was infallible and trying to lead them all to their doom. Buffy, and Buffy alone, was the only one who has any right being near Caleb.
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GrrArghx
Bing-freaking-o!
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StarSlayer
Well said :)
It's not about hero worship, it's about her not being allowed to make mistakes. It's simple - you lead people into battle and they die, shit happens. Not every plan will go smoothly, some villains will be more than you can handle, and Buffy made a mistake. By no means does that give them the moral superiority over her nor any right to kick her out of her own house.

Did no one listen to the little speech Xander gave on why she's earned their respect?
Darn right she has. And no snot faced little potential, ingrateful brat sister or grumpy ex-demon can claim that they would have done it better. Buffy is not infallible but they are far from it themselves, so who the heck are they to judge.
Caleb was light years above 'more than you can handle', no one who isn't a slayer should be within ten yards of him IMO. I think even Buffy got that after she defeated him ALONE hence why she never made a big deal about it once she returned home.

I think the OP should have left these never found peace topics in the grave lol
 
V
Vengeance
yes, I abstained from posting in here for that reason! lol
"Kicked Out of Her Own House."

Empty Places had the fans raging on Buffy's behalf. Almost all the characters betrayed her, except True Love Spike, and that episode was the best move to bring fans back to love Buffy. Buffy's attitude in S7 was off-putting to many, and nothing like being kicked out of her own house to bring fans back to loving Buffy. After this episode, fans started to see how much Buffy had sacrificed and how much her friends weren't always supportive of her decisions and weren't always patient about her mistakes. The Scoobies are hated by many Buffy (the character) fans to the point where some claim that Buffy would have done fine, if better, if she didn't have the Scoobies by her side.

I've always felt like a lone wolf on this episode, every since I pretty much joined BB. I know this may come as a shock to some, but "Empty Places" has always been my favorite episode of BtVS. I think every since I joined people some may have thought I made a mistake on something on my profile, by putting "Empty Places" as my favorite episode. Nope, I didn't. Come to think of it, now I remember my original username was based off it: Empty Places -> EmptyColours. Lol, completely forgot about that.

So, yeah. The final scene is the main reason why. I thought Buffy was being incredibly rash, and I stand by the gang and the Scoobie's decision. Everyone was incredibly shaken up, emotional, and some still very much injured. Buffy asking (even to the point of demanding it) from them, was, well completely reckless. Was she blind? Did she not see a vampire and two slayers completely manhandled and toyed with? Did she not see her best friend get his eye gouged out, did she forget him scream? That whole scene from "Dirty Girls" disturbed me. I don't understand how she didn't take any of this into account, and how a second attempt (with even less manpower) could possibly succeed. I even stand by Dawn's decision, she knew Buffy wasn't going to back down and follow. She had to do something with the little fragment of "power" she held.

Buffy isn't a one-woman army, we cannot forget this. Most of her battles and sacrifices would not have happened if it wasn't for her friends and family. Just because her "record" is amazing does not mean she is immune to making mistakes, big or small.

"Kick His Ass"

This was probably the first storm in the BtVS fandom. Not only Bangels were furious at Xander's betrayal, almost all the BtVS fandom was. Xander started to lose fans, and websites about evil Xander began (with pictures of Xander with devil horns) Xander bashing was increasing, if not born, and never ending arguments took place in possibly every forum. I think the writers were too traumatized by the hostile reaction from the fans that they chickened out and dropped the storyline completely in S3 - which is a shame, if "kick his ass" was dealt with in S3, it won't be as infamous as it is today. Fans are still upset about it, and it's mostly because the writers never dealt with it.

I would have said the same thing as Xander if I were in his position. Buffy's judgment wasn't always clear when it came to Angel, and anything that could possibly impede what she had to do was extremely dangerous. Angelus was already killing people, held a captive Giles (lets not forget the torturing), and had a high possibility of sending everyone to Hell. It didn't matter about whose feelings could potentially get hurt. What mattered was the entire world. If anything, I would say Xander was smart and aided Buffy in saving the world.

I always wonder if this wasn't fantasy, if this really happened. If everyone here's friends, family, and themselves all had an extremely high chance of being sent to Hell for eternity. Would people still be criticizing Xander, or thanking him?
 
Connor Holtz
Connor Holtz
1000x karma!!!!!! I LOVE this post <3 You said it better than I could ever hope to. Well said.
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sosa lola
This is probably the most rational post I've ever read. Thank you.
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
Great post Ant :)
I won't speak for everyone but I didn't see Spike as a soulless monster. He had qualities that some people don't have. He fought with Buffy to her death the first time, he loved her. After she died he stuck around to take care of Dawn. Can we say humans with "souls" would do this not all of them. So I think this is the writers mistake in this case. They build him up and then break him down and want to say he is a full blown monster IMO they messed up. So to me just because he didn't have a actual soul does not make him a monster.

I agree. It was so weird, because the episode before Seeing Red Spike seemed to be okay, even saying something along the lines of "I don't hurt you" when Buffy accused him of planting the camera. IMO, the AR was just a plot device to give Spike a reason to go searching for a soul. I didn't like it. I think if they were going to have the AR they should have either kept him evil and made it very clear throughout S4, 5 and 6, or have him be morally ambiguous/semi-good (as they did) but without the AR. I don't like the indecision and jerking around with his character. Either make him good or bad. Anyway, I'm glad they gave him a soul and made him good in S7.
 
S
StarSlayer
But don't forget. Spike hurt Buffy before AR by sleeping w/ Anya. He didn't think he was, but he did as Dawn mentioned in "Seeing Red."
I agree. It was so weird, because the episode before Seeing Red Spike seemed to be okay, even saying something along the lines of "I don't hurt you" when Buffy accused him of planting the camera. IMO, the AR was just a plot device to give Spike a reason to go searching for a soul. I didn't like it. I think if they were going to have the AR they should have either kept him evil and made it very clear throughout S4, 5 and 6, or have him be morally ambiguous/semi-good (as they did) but without the AR. I don't like the indecision and jerking around with his character. Either make him good or bad. Anyway, I'm glad they gave him a soul and made him good in S7.
I completely agree that is the thing that I hate they make is a gray area the entire time and then decide to do this. I see it as a plot device in the long run I don't mind because he got his soul but sometimes I wonder what they are thinking.
 
I know this may come as a shock to some, but "Empty Places" has always been my favorite episode of BtVS.

I understand what the writers were trying to do, but they weren't successful. Empty Places makes me hate Buffy and Spike, because I can't help but feel that it was only done to make them the heroes on the expense of the other characters -trash all the characters to make Buffy and Spike look good. I just can't shake that feeling. The writers were obviously on Buffy and Spike's side -if they were being objective, the Scoobies would have been able to explain themselves to Spike, to tell him their opinion.

Spike's speech angers me because he talks like Buffy's accomplishments are the only thing that counts, while the others' sacrifices and heroism don't. Like Buffy made it this far without them.
 
So, yeah. The final scene is the main reason why. I thought Buffy was being incredibly rash, and I stand by the gang and the Scoobie's decision. Everyone was incredibly shaken up, emotional, and some still very much injured. Buffy asking (even to the point of demanding it) from them, was, well completely reckless. Was she blind? Did she not see a vampire and two slayers completely manhandled and toyed with? Did she not see her best friend get his eye gouged out, did she forget him scream? That whole scene from "Dirty Girls" disturbed me. I don't understand how she didn't take any of this into account, and how a second attempt (with even less manpower) could possibly succeed. I even stand by Dawn's decision, she knew Buffy wasn't going to back down and follow. She had to do something with the little fragment of "power" she held.

Buffy isn't a one-woman army, we cannot forget this. Most of her battles and sacrifices would not have happened if it wasn't for her friends and family. Just because her "record" is amazing does not mean she is immune to making mistakes, big or small.

Absolutely! I'm another one of those who actually thought Buffy got exactly what was coming to her. She had slowly been becoming someone I really didn't like and I actually think her character regressed in terms of maturity at times.

A few people are disgusted at the way the Scoobies spoke to her or treated but I was much more disgusted with her hypocritical, pathetic verbal attack on Faith. For someone who had spent the best part of a season trying to convince everyone that a newly souled vampire who had previously tried to kill them all and rape her was fine, how she could stand there and completely humiliate Faith with her whole 'she killed someone mer mer mer' is beyond me when you could quite clearly see in her tone, her body language, her attitude that Faith was not the same person that she was before.

For me it wasn't just about her mistakes the first time round but that she was becoming something so far from what a leader is and the Scoobies had to take a stand. The fact she comes back with a better outlook on it all, I have also always taken as her realisation that actually, yeah, she needed a time out.

I think it's a fun one to discuss. For one, I get just as angry at Buffy as other people do at the Scoobies and it always make for good discussion.

As for the others, I've procrastinated enough for now but may return later! 😛
 
M
Marisa
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sosa lola
Good post!
The fact she comes back with a better outlook on it all, I have also always taken as her realisation that actually, yeah, she needed a time out.

I thought it was fairly clear that she needed someone to believe in her. Shows how differently people can view things.
 
I thought it was fairly clear that she needed someone to believe in her. Shows how differently people can view things.

That's interpretation for you. Her return was always going to be received differently depending on how you reacted to the instance of her leaving. For someone like me who wholeheartedly agrees she needed knocking down a notch, she came back realising that herself. But for others who were on the other side, there will be more sympathy for her.

One of the reasons this topic is so widely debated is because it's about more than just that one scene. That argument was born out of something rooted in something much more than one plan gone wrong - whichever side of the fence you fall down on.
 
It really seems there are two main issues when things like this come up.

First is that people tend to use selective pieces of context when arguing in support of one viewpoint or another.

For example, if one wants to argue that Xander's motivation for the "kick his ass" line was simple jealousy, then we need to explain how his development past Buffy (like his relationship with Cordelia, his growing feelings not only for her but Willow as well, as well as the comments in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered when he starts to show the realization that Buffy is just not that into him) is somehow irrelevant to his desire to lie about what Willow said. Furthermore, one would need to explain why the context surrounding current events (basically, at least everything that happened in the attack earlier in the show) wouldn't reasonably convince Xander that restoring his soul was both impossible and beyond the point at this juncture. If it is unreasonable for him to witness the death (Kendra), kidnapping for certain torture (Giles), and injury (Willow) of some of the closest people to him and then come to the conclusion that Angel just ain't worth it.... one would kinda need to explain why. Having an opinion is all well and good, but opinions are usually based on an understanding of the relevant information.

The other problem usually seems to be viewing the instances from a characters eye level. And this is really prevalent in how people view Empty Places.

We, as viewers of a TV show, are afforded the luxury of understanding that the world, as construed on the show, operates a certain way. We are aware of certain things the characters are simply unaware of, which allows us to form conclusions different from them. It's easy for us to sit here and say "Of course Buffy is right! It's her TV show! She is gonna win in the end!", but this line of thinking isn't a rational level for characters of a TV show, as none of that marks their world. It's easy for the viewer to give blind obedience to Buffy, we've been conditioned to do that, plus, at this juncture, it's also hindsight. We know she finds the scythe, so clearly, she is right. But contextually speaking, these things mean nothing to the moment at hand. In Empty Places, Buffy was asking them to do the exact same thing that had just caused them several lives and Xanders eye, for reasons beyond vague. If the only reason one can come up with to support this is that "She is Buffy", then you are offering a tautology, not a reasonable breakdown of the situation. The people in that house were right to fear and had every reason to. The idea they needed to "fall in line" just cause Buffy told them to lacks eye level understanding of their own perspectives.

As for direct responses....

Taake said:
It's not about hero worship, it's about her not being allowed to make mistakes. It's simple - you lead people into battle and they die, shit happens. Not every plan will go smoothly, some villains will be more than you can handle, and Buffy made a mistake. By no means does that give them the moral superiority over her nor any right to kick her out of her own house.

It's not about moral superiority either. When you read (or watch) that confrontation, the only people bringing any sort of moral cadence to the proceedings is Buffy herself, and possibly Anya, and possibly Giles. Xander and Faith, Xander and Faith, of all people are the ones being the most rational, and saying this is about their lack of trust in Buffy's plan, as it is the exact same one that just lead to big, big problems. Really, at this point, it is being made clear by them that Buffy has not been doing a good job and she is asking a LOT of them on simple faith, especially Xander, who just before gave an amazing speech about trusting Buffy, and even HE, at this point, can't see what she is trying to do.

And honestly... a "mistake" is when you buy the wrong flavor of gum or forget to make a payment on time, when you willfully cause others to die and lose important body parts.... it deserves a harsher term. Like failure. Or debacle.

... so who the heck are they to judge.

The people who she is asking to go out and possibly die. Wood, again, was very right here when he said it was a lot to ask with thin rationale.

The only thing that ever bothered me about it was the actual, literal removal of her from the house. I didn't get the point of that. I thought it was plenty enough to simply have them stand up to Buffy, say no, and tell her she was not going to order them around like this anymore. Actually removing her from the house? Don't get it. I think, as someone else mentioned, it was cheap set up so we could get the hilarious notion of an attempted rapist going to the damsel's rescue, but whatever.
 
I
Icarium
Well said
We, as viewers of a TV show, are afforded the luxury of understanding that the world, as construed on the show, operates a certain way. We are aware of certain things the characters are simply unaware of, which allows us to form conclusions different from them. It's easy for us to sit here and say "Of course Buffy is right! It's her TV show! She is gonna win in the end!", but this line of thinking isn't a rational level for characters of a TV show, as none of that marks their world.

Exactly. We should try to put ourselves in the characters' shoes, not view their reactions as wrong if they happen to be different than our own. I mentioned it above but I think it bears repeating - why in Empty Places should Xander, Willow and Giles trust Buffy when she doesn't trust them? She tries to treat them as subordinates, so they treat her the way people tend to treat bosses whose decisions make no sense - by refusing to do what they are ordered. Makes sense to me. Now, it's true that at that point these characters had precious little in common with their originals in the better years of the show but that's a whole different issue.

A few people are disgusted at the way the Scoobies spoke to her or treated but I was much more disgusted with her hypocritical, pathetic verbal attack on Faith. For someone who had spent the best part of a season trying to convince everyone that a newly souled vampire who had previously tried to kill them all and rape her was fine, how she could stand there and completely humiliate Faith with her whole 'she killed someone mer mer mer' is beyond me when you could quite clearly see in her tone, her body language, her attitude that Faith was not the same person that she was before.

I would have to disagree. Buffy not trusting Faith for me is one of the few moments where the "real Buffy" appeared in S7 as opposed to the borderline lunatic, Spike-worshipping joke that Buffy is for most of the season. Faith is a murderer. She had already betrayed Buffy once, body language and a few years in prisons shouldn't be enough to instantly dispel Buffy's distrust of her. And yes, her blind trust of Spike and acceptance of Anya, Willow and Andrew in her house does undermine Buffy's moral high ground quite a bit but IMO those are the out of the norm cases. Buffy should not be all forgiving of every murderer who tries (not too hard usually) to show any repentance. Same for her insta-bonding with Faith after her triumphant return with the Scythe. That sounded so false to me. Buffy is now allowed to bond only with vampires and Slayers, those punt humans can never understand? WTF!?!

I always wonder if this wasn't fantasy, if this really happened. If everyone here's friends, family, and themselves all had an extremely high chance of being sent to Hell for eternity. Would people still be criticizing Xander, or thanking him?

Me too. It's easy to say "Xander should have done this or that" or "Buffy shouldn't be blamed for not finishing Angel in Innocence, she just couldn't bring herself to do it" but if you happen to be a relative or friend of one of Angel's victims I doubt you would be so generous to Buffy or encourage Xander to risk the fate of the entire world for the sake of Angel.

It's not about hero worship, it's about her not being allowed to make mistakes. It's simple - you lead people into battle and they die, shit happens. Not every plan will go smoothly, some villains will be more than you can handle, and Buffy made a mistake. By no means does that give them the moral superiority over her nor any right to kick her out of her own house.

When your leader doesn't seem to be in touch in reality you tend to lose faith in them, even if their track record is amazing. It's a fact of life. It's not as if Buffy made one mistake ever and everyone decided to rebel out of the blue. The issues in Empty Places isn't so much the failed attack in Dirty Girls, it's Buffy's adamant refusal to show any flexibility whatsoever and her reliance on premonitions and ideas pulled directly out of her ass. Would you really follow someone whose justification is "the bad guys are always where the power is"? It sounds like a line from a crack fanfic, IMO.
 
I would have to disagree. Buffy not trusting Faith for me is one of the few moments where the "real Buffy" appeared in S7 as opposed to the borderline lunatic, Spike-worshipping joke that Buffy is for most of the season. Faith is a murderer. She had already betrayed Buffy once, body language and a few years in prisons shouldn't be enough to instantly dispel Buffy's distrust of her. And yes, her blind trust of Spike and acceptance of Anya, Willow and Andrew in her house does undermine Buffy's moral high ground quite a bit but IMO those are the out of the norm cases. Buffy should not be all forgiving of every murderer, IMO who tries (not too hard usually) to show any repentance. Same for her insta-bonding with Faith after her triumphant return with the Scythe. That sounded so false to me.

It was little bit more than undermining, really. And it seems a little odd that you take more issue with her trusting Faith again even though you refer to Buffy as a 'Spike-worshipping joke' but, each to their own.

I wasn't suggesting that Buffy should trust her. That was not my issue. I am not angry with her for not being BFFs with her as soon as she got back. Trust or no trust, the way in which she humiliated Faith in front of everyone else, in order to make herself feel better, was completely pathetic and made her look like s complete shambles who was far too subjective and blinded by her emotions to lead them at that time.

Yes, Faith is/was a murderer, but so was Willow., and as you said Andrew and Anya so actually to me it's pretty much the norm for her to accept past murderers. Buffy's issue with Faith was wrapped up in base jealousy and Buffy having her nose put out of joint and that is what I take issue with. Well, one of many things.
 
I was being sarcastic when I mention the bit of undermining. 🙂 Obviously, it's hypocritical of Buffy to be so angry about Faith's murders than against other people's but pretty much everyone is hypocritical sometimes and I'd much rather have Buffy be a hypocrite than someone who never cares that her "allies" have as much blood on their hands as her enemies. Also, Faith betrayed Buffy, Andrew and Anya never did because she never trusted them in the first place and Willow's "dark" phase, as much as I hate the very idea of it happening at all, had certain mitigating circumstances, not to mention that Willow was Buffy's best friend. Faith pretty much spat on her sacred Calling. For me it would be weird for Buffy not to be very much suspicious of the idea of Faith being reformed. And as much as I think Buffy was a borderline lunatic in Empty Places, I can't disagree with her about that particular point - the Potentials need to know Faith's history. Neither of Buffy and Faith was a good choice for a leader at that point but the writers had the agenda of "Only Slayers can lead" so we were stuck with seeing them do it anyway.
 
First is that people tend to use selective pieces of context when arguing in support of one viewpoint or another.



The other problem usually seems to be viewing the instances from a characters eye level. And this is really prevalent in how people view Empty Places.




Really, at this point, it is being made clear by them that Buffy has not been doing a good job and she is asking a LOT of them on simple faith, especially Xander, who just before gave an amazing speech about trusting Buffy, and even HE, at this point, can't see what she is trying to do.

And honestly... a "mistake" is when you buy the wrong flavor of gum or forget to make a payment on time, when you willfully cause others to die and lose important body parts.... it deserves a harsher term. Like failure. Or debacle.



The people who she is asking to go out and possibly die. Wood, again, was very right here when he said it was a lot to ask with thin rationale.

The only thing that ever bothered me about it was the actual, literal removal of her from the house. I didn't get the point of that. I thought it was plenty enough to simply have them stand up to Buffy, say no, and tell her she was not going to order them around like this anymore. Actually removing her from the house? Don't get it. I think, as someone else mentioned, it was cheap set up so we could get the hilarious notion of an attempted rapist going to the damsel's rescue, but whatever.

First of all, I do not see this from any character's eye level, I see it from actual combat military experience, and, whether anyone chooses to agree or not, what was going on in Sunnydale at that time was most certainly war, and Buffy and the others were the army that was on site to face the First Evil and its minions. It was completely fine with everyone for Buffy to be the one in charge as long as that meant that she was the only one doing the fighting and bleeding, and as long as the risks were taken by her while they sat all warm and comfortable under her roof, behind her closed doors.

Then, suddenly, the Potentials have to start sharing in the pain and the danger, and they are ready to elect, or more accurately appoint, a new leader, a leader who they knew next to nothing about. (Incidentally, I have no ill feelings for Faith for taking command once it became obvious that Buffy wasn't going to stay. She was the next logical one to lead) I find it ironic that, after the first time that Faith leads the others into battle, and the casualties that it incurred,(while Buffy's own plan, returning to the vineyard, had proved successful) leadership of the group went back to the very person who they had rejected in the first place.

Being the leader of an army means that you sometimes have to send your troops to their death. As Wes said when he was the leader of the Pylean insurgents in Season 3 of "Angel," the decision sometimes boils down to sacrificing a few so that the majority can live. The fact that Buffy regretted those losses was obvious, but just as obvious was the fact that they were unavoidable, based on the information that Buffy had to work with. Caleb "had something that belonged to her." As far as she knew, that might have been a Potential, or several, or, as it turned out, the very weapon that she needed to win her war. Certainly, as Giles pointed out, it could just as easily have been a stapler, but it was Buffy's decision, as leader, to make, and she made it. The Potentials were, as far as we know, free to leave anytime they chose to do so. There were obviously plenty of vacant houses available by that time.

That isn't to say that Buffy didn't make mistakes in this matter, because she most certainly did. Before announcing her plans to the entire group, she should have met, privately, with Giles, Willow, and Faith (Spike and Xander being absent at the time) to explain her plans and discuss specific strategies, and be sure of their support. Once that was done, she could have presented her plans to the Potentials and Wood, along with an alternative for anyone who chose not to agree: an open door, and sincere well wishes on their trip through it.

No one in their right mind wants to risk their lives, not for any cause, regardless of how noble that cause might be. And no one in their right mind wants to send others to die. Sometimes, however, it becomes necessary to do either or both. Buffy's decision to return to the vineyard was the right one, and she was, ultimately, proven right in that decision. But because of the lack of support of her "friends" and troops, the risk that she took in proceeding with that plan was increased tenfold or even more.
 
Ha, I'm usually fine with picking up on sarcasm but that went right over my head, my apologies.

I agree with your reasons as to why Buffy was suspicious of Faith, (but that doesn't change the fact I think she's an idiot for it 😉) and I also agree that the potentials needed to know about her past and such; that I have no problem with at all. It's the way she goes about that really ticks me off. I can acknowledge the reasons she had but I really do not agree with how she handled them. It was immature and base and completely opposite of what you expect a hero to behave like.

And while I do agree with your reasons as to her treatment of Faith, it wasn't the only thing that spurned her to doing what she did and I guess that's why I find it so frustrating. And I do think that Buffy wouldn't have had such a hard time dealing with Faith's 'reform' if it had been someone other than Angel that had helped her to it 😉

But we do both agree that Buffy is nuts in season 7 🙂
 
TNo one in their right mind wants to risk their lives, not for any cause, regardless of how noble that cause might be. And no one in their right mind wants to send others to die. Sometimes, however, it becomes necessary to do either or both. Buffy's decision to return to the vineyard was the right one, and she was, ultimately, proven right in that decision. But because of the lack of support of her "friends" and troops, the risk that she took in proceeding with that plan was increased tenfold or even more.

Actually considering Caleb showed no intention whatsoever of killing Buffy in the previous two meetings between them when he defeated her quite comfortably, the risk for Buffy personally was much lower than the risk for the rest of the group. And the only reason she succeeds (apart from Caleb's monumental stupidity, of course) is exactly because she went alone.

Furthermore, saying she was right to take that decision just because things worked out okay is logical fallacy. Things worked out because the writers crudely manipulated events to help Buffy. Back in Empty Places she couldn't know about the Scythe or that Caleb is in the vineyard at all. Saying she was right is a bit like saying she would have been right not to go after Spike in say What's My Line II because she has a premonition that one day would save the world. Technically this turned out to be the case but the character at that moment of time couldn't possibly get to that conclusion, unless she were a seer. What if the writers had decided to have some fun and the humus plan in Graduation Day had been accepted and it somehow had worked? Would we have proclaimed Oz to be genius or the writers to be utter morons? I suspect it would have been the latter. 😉
 
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