Unpopular Rants, Opinions and Confessions II

[GrrArghx]

I think Buffy was at her best in Season 7. She finally stepped up to the plate; realized she was the Slayer. She didn't have time to complain about not being normal, didn't have time for messing around and waiting for something bad to happen (Like letting Anya kill more people before she decided it was time to stop her; realizing that if she had to kill Dawn to save the world, she actually would this time around), and she really took charge. And she proved there was a reason she had to be the one in charge.

I've always loved the irony of Empty Places. Buffy tells the group Caleb is hiding something. They say it's a trap; that it would be too stupid to go in again to risk getting someone else hurt and kick her out. So the newly in charge Faith sends the gang down into a real trap and gets people hurt, while Buffy proves that she was right by finding the Scythe that Caleb was hiding from them.

Talk about karma 😉

Anyway, I think saying Buffy was a bitca, selfish, and cruel is a little cruel itself. She was fighting the most serious battle of her life. She didn't even believe she was going to win until right before the battle took place. And she had tons of ungrateful brats in her house questioning every damn thing she was trying to do. I was behind her 100%.

 

[Icarium]

I think Buffy was at her best in Season 7. She finally stepped up to the plate; realized she was the Slayer. She didn't have time to complain about not being normal, didn't have time for messing around and waiting for something bad to happen

Yet the majority of the season takes place in Buffy's living room while she is waiting for the enemy to strike. And she did an awful lot of complaining, whether it was justified or not is another question. As for waiting for something bad to happen there's leaving Anya to grant wishes for months. Yes, that would end well...

 

[GrrArghx]

Yet the majority of the season takes place in Buffy's living room while she is waiting for the enemy to strike. And she did an awful lot of complaining, whether it was justified or not is another question. As for waiting for something bad to happen there's leaving Anya to grant wishes for months. Yes, that would end well...

They didn't know what they were dealing with for a while in the beginning of the season. & they didn't feel like they had anything to fight, except for bringers. My comment about her taking charge was about her fighting the Ubervamp in Showtime, her plan to go to the Vineyard, her plan for the final battle in Chosen, etc.

As for Anya, it took Hallie calling Anya soft for her to do something that really put everyone in danger. Then, Buffy dealt with it. As far as I can remember, Anya hadn't gotten anyone killed up until that point.

ToShanshuInLA agrees: Buffy's fallen for traps...one that got a slayer killed in fact.

My post was about how much Buffy had grown as a Slayer in Season 7. That trap was in S2.

And I'm not saying she hasn't. I was just pointing out the irony because they had the nerve to kick her out and it turned out she was right the entire time.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

But she was asking them to go through with the same plan when they couldn't have known that. 🙄 Part of their problem is that they had no idea what they were looking for and that they weren't sure.

 

[Icarium]

As for Anya, it took Hallie calling Anya soft for her to do something that really put everyone in danger. Then, Buffy dealt with it. As far as I can remember, Anya hadn't gotten anyone killed up until that point.

Buffy has no way of knowing that for sure. It's not as if Anya reports the wishes she grants to Buffy.

My comment about her taking charge was about her fighting the Ubervamp in Showtime

Oh, how much I hate that scene, let me count the ways. So Buffy gets her ass kicked by the Uber-vamp and he doesn't kill her for some arcane reason. Her response is to take on him again, taking all the Potentials she is supposed to be protecting with her. No other plan, no special weapons or preparations. Nothing. She wins because the plot says so. Nice. Same for her "plan" in Chosen which would have gotten everyone killed if it wasn't for Wolfram and Hart's amulet or her "plan" in Empty Places that would have resulted in more people being killed by Caleb since she only took the Scythe by outmaneuvering him, something a large group couldn't have done. And why was he luring her to the very place the Scythe was anyway?

I was just pointing out the irony because they had the nerve to kick her out and it turned out she was right the entire time.

No one kicked her out, she left because they refused to be treated as her slaves. Boo-hoo, Buffy.

 

[Taake]

Oh, how much I hate that scene, let me count the ways. So Buffy gets her ass kicked by the Uber-vamp and he doesn't kill her for some arcane reason. Her response is to take on him again, taking all the Potentials she is supposed to be protecting with her. No other plan, no special weapons or preparations. Nothing. She wins because the plot says so.

Or she wins because the point is that she is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the past season and a half she has been wobbling with herself - being back from the dead and all that.

Perhaps the point is simply that Buffy is kick-ass just as she was in the first seasons and all she needs is herself to win.


GrrArgX:
I think Buffy was at her best in Season 7. She finally stepped up to the plate; realized she was the Slayer

Silly me had already Karma'd you so couldn't do it again. But this post really made me love you a little :biggrin3:
I love mission-focused Buffy. I felt it was completely in tune with everything she had gone through through the years. Finally she just got it.

 

[Ruminator]

Or she wins because the point is that she is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the past season and a half she has been wobbling with herself - being back from the dead and all that.

Perhaps the point is simply that Buffy is kick-ass just as she was in the first seasons and all she needs is herself to win.

This is a tautology though. "Buffy wins because she is Buffy" is not a logical thought process but an exercise in self gratification. It does nothing to answer the gaping holes of reason involved (most specifically, why didn't the Ubervamp just kill her when it is obvious he could, or hell, why didn't Caleb do it either when it was clear he could). I mean, when Joss Whedon himself infamously admits to the fact that the continuity of the season was sacrificed to "make a point" in the finale, perhaps it is clear that the writing was filled with deus ex machina and gaps of logic, yeah?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

edit: never mind...............

 

[Taake]

This is a tautology though. "Buffy wins because she is Buffy" is not a logical thought process but an exercise in self gratification. It does nothing to answer the gaping holes of reason involved (most specifically, why didn't the Ubervamp just kill her when it is obvious he could, or hell, why didn't Caleb do it either when it was clear he could). I mean, when Joss Whedon himself infamously admits to the fact that the continuity of the season was sacrificed to "make a point" in the finale, perhaps it is clear that the writing was filled with deus ex machina and gaps of logic, yeah?

I suppose for me in this case (and yes I've read/heard Joss admitting that too) I just don't care. I think there are far worse things the writers have done to the show than letting the Ubervamps become more kill-able.

And I enjoy said exercise in self gratification because I cheer for Buffy. Ultimately I'm watching a show about a girl with supernatural powers who can kick-ass. I want to see her kick-ass and save the day.
Perhaps it could have been done in a different way but truly it doesn't bother me that it wasn't.

 

[dan k]

In regard to Buffy defeating the Ubervamp i just took it as Buffy getting the better of things in that specific fight. It was typical Buffy, finding the heart and drive to do the impossible, which was TO come out of the process alive. Just because the Ubervamp kicked her ass in the previous fight doesn't mean she couldn't defeat it in another battle.

 

[TheVoid68]

Buffy turning out to be right in Empty Places/Touched is one of the most contrived pieces of plotting I have ever seen. Lets break it down...

1) Caleb tells Buffy that he has something of hers at the Vineyard. So she takes this clearly honest piece of advice from this kind, respectable man and goes to the Vineyard. Naturally, she is utterly shocked when *gasp* it turns out to be a trap. Xander's eyes gets squelched and a couple of potentials get killed.
2) Next episode, Buffy decides that they're going back to the Vineyard. With, uh, the exact same plan as before. The one that failed spectacularly. Her friends try to calmly point out that maybe doing the exact same thing as before isn't the best plan in the world. Buffy rants and gets paranoid, issues an ultimatum and kicks herself out. Faith gets voted into power (the democratic government replacing Buffy's autocracy).
3) Faith hatches a plan to go... somewhere, I forget where they actually go. But her plan is based on sound logic and isn't, y'know, a plan that had already been tried and failed. She goes there, and it is inexplicably a trap (as opposed to Buffy's original plan, which was blatantly a trap all along).
4) Buffy decides to go to the Vineyard on her own and lo and behold, there's the MacGuffin.

There are two major things wrong with concluding from these events that Buffy was right all along. First, if they had followed Buffy in Empty Places, everyone would have gotten killed again. In Touched, Buffy comes up with a completely new plan. Buffy was wrong in the first place, she was only right the second time. The Scoobies only objected to the first plan. Secondly - why on Earth did Caleb tell Buffy about the Scythe in the first place? Buffy only turns out to be right because the villain inexplicably gives her directions to the treasure. The Scoobies have every right to believe that Caleb is not telling the truth, they're expecting the villain to have an ounce of common sense. Buffy is lucky that her opponent is a complete moron. Add in the contrived trap that Faith falls in to, compared to the blatant one that Buffy does, and you've got a plot that is powered completely by stupidity and contrived circumstances.

Buffy is only right because a) the plot says so and b) the villain is an idiot. Oh, and it's Seasons Seven, so all lesser mortals must kneel at the feet of the almight Queen Buffy and Saint Spike. [/rant]

 

[sk]

Okay, my take on the Empty Places story is more like this.

Caleb arrives with his "message".
Buffy wonders who this new guy is and goes looking for him. They find him quite easily by following a bringer to the vineyard.
The fact that they actually managed to find a bringer and following him makes the gang suspect that it very well can be a trap.

Buffy decides to go in and check out the place anyway. Bringing the potentials for the first time because she (and Wood for that matter) thinks they must be tested sometime.
Turns out that it is a trap and that Caleb is much stronger than they could ever had guessed. Big misstake to not study him more before they went in as Giles did suggest.

Next day Caleb talks to Buffy about glory, the school, the seal and how it will change everything.
Buffy wonders why Caleb went on about the seal as this power center while still sitting out on that vineyard. She figure that it must be something important out there anyway because in her experience the evil guys is always drawn to power.

She presents that idea to everyone who pretty much panic by the thought of going back.
Buffy also makes it clear that she is prepared to talk strategies, since their last attempt wasn't all that great. Don't get the whole "exact same plan as before" thing which I've heard several time before. They have told her to leave long before they get to any actual planning.

Perhaps not the most brilliant plot ever written but it's good enough for me. Buffy has never been about the plot anyway.

And can there ever be any other reason that anyone has right or wrong in a made up story than the plot? Don't really get that argument.

/SK

 

[Icarium]

Next day Caleb talks to Buffy about glory, the school, the seal and how it will change everything.
Buffy wonders why Caleb went on about the seal as this power center while still sitting out on that vineyard.

Except the only time Buffy saw Caleb in Empty Places he was in the school, that is to say very close to Seal. Somehow Buffy gets to the conclusion that he is sitting on the vineyard and neglecting the Seal? I think we can safely say Buffy's logic doesn't resemble our earth logic. She says Caleb doesnt't have anyone guarding the Seal yet the one time she was close to it Caleb promplty appeared and beat her up. She doesn't even bother to check if there is anyone left in that vineyard or it was just a one time trap, she jumps straight to "They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.". She might as well have said "the itching in my big left toe tells me the key to the victory is in the vineyard"...

And let's not even get started about how how incredibly stupid Caleb was during all this. He didn't kill Buffy why exactly? He used the vineyard for his trap why exacty? It's like a duel between dumb vs dumber...

 

[Taake]

And let's not even get started about how how incredibly stupid Caleb was during all this. He didn't kill Buffy why exactly? He used the vineyard for his trap why exacty? It's like a duel between dumb vs dumber...

Well I think you've made your feelings on the topic perfectly clear so no, let's not get started. Another 'agree to disagree' type of conversation here.

 

[TheVoid68]

Okay, my take on the Empty Places story is more like this.

Caleb arrives with his "message".
Buffy wonders who this new guy is and goes looking for him. They find him quite easily by following a bringer to the vineyard.
The fact that they actually managed to find a bringer and following him makes the gang suspect that it very well can be a trap.

Buffy decides to go in and check out the place anyway. Bringing the potentials for the first time because she (and Wood for that matter) thinks they must be tested sometime.
Turns out that it is a trap and that Caleb is much stronger than they could ever had guessed. Big misstake to not study him more before they went in as Giles did suggest.

Next day Caleb talks to Buffy about glory, the school, the seal and how it will change everything.
Buffy wonders why Caleb went on about the seal as this power center while still sitting out on that vineyard. She figure that it must be something important out there anyway because in her experience the evil guys is always drawn to power.

OK, the above is pretty much what I said but worded less harshly.

She presents that idea to everyone who pretty much panic by the thought of going back.

Gee, I wonder why that could be? Possibly because, um, last time people died and got spontaneous enucleations.

Buffy also makes it clear that she is prepared to talk strategies, since their last attempt wasn't all that great.

Her full quote is "I'm prepared to talk about this... but this is the plan!" *facepalm*

Don't get the whole "exact same plan as before" thing which I've heard several time before.

Because it is the exact same plan as before.

Plan 1: There's something at the vineyard. Let's attack it!
Plan 2: There's something at the vineyard. Let's attack it!

They have told her to leave long before they get to any actual planning.

Because Buffy made it clear that she wasn't going to listen. She told them that that was the plan, no exceptions, and that they weren't living in a democracy. Then she threw a hissy fit and demanded that either they follow her unquestioningly or she leaves.

Buffy has never been about the plot anyway.

The very least I expect from a plot in any show is for it to make sense. No exceptions.

And can there ever be any other reason that anyone has right or wrong in a made up story than the plot? Don't really get that argument.

Finding out who is "right" should come from a natural development of the plot. It should not come through contrived coincidences and plot-induced stupidity.

 

[Vengeance]

If we're going into hypothetical land, if the scoobies had at least talked strategy with her before kicking her out they could've suggested "how about you go in solo" instead of just point blank refusing to even accept the possibility that Buffy might be right in that there was something at the vineyard.

I tend to think of it as the writers really made the potentials+scoobs+faith+buffy seem like an army, and they ran it that way. In the army you don't question the leader. You follow orders. And you don't go out of your way to be nice to your soldiers, you get the job done. The problem was the "soldiers" were teenage girls incapable of following anyone (kennedy didn't even like following faith).

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I think a leader would try to avoid repeating the same things that got some of their soldiers killed and maimed in the first place.

I don't remember them flat-out refusing to believe that she was right. They didn't want to go in without being sure.


I swear, Buffy's plan could have been to have Andrew challenge Caleb to an arm wrestling match and people would still be all over the Scoobies for questioning her.

 

[TheVoid68]

TSILA is right, the Scooby's reaction wasn't flat-out disbelief that there could be something in the Vineyard, it they were just asking Buffy to chill out and consider other viewpoints. And Buffy didn't let them talk strategy - she insisted that that was the plan.

When it comes down to it, the Scoobies are not an army, and part of what I disliked about S7 was them being presented like one. Buffy learned countless times in the early seasons that she needed her friends - the fact that she had them and they were a team was what made her so special as a slayer. Buffy should've remembered that, and she should've also kept in mind that they're not just tools, they're also her friends.

And as I'm in the Unpopular Opinions topic - Kennedy>>>>>Buffy in S7.

 

[Icarium]

I tend to think of it as the writers really made the potentials+scoobs+faith+buffy seem like an army, and they ran it that way. In the army you don't question the leader. You follow orders. And you don't go out of your way to be nice to your soldiers, you get the job done. The problem was the "soldiers" were teenage girls incapable of following anyone (kennedy didn't even like following faith).

No, the problem was that the leader was acting like a lunatic. First she says Spike is her strongest fighter and only he has her back, despite him so far being more of a liability than an asset in the fight against the First. Then she is all "let's attack, right now" without Mr. Strongest Fighter (who by the by is on a mission to find info about Caleb which, gasp, might help them defeat him but why wait when you can all be slaughtered today?), without any reason other than Buffy's premonition.

Now, don't get me wrong, Buffy wasn't the only one who was being a moron in the situation. Willow, Xander and Giles showed their own stupidity when they decided to follow Faith of all people. Even cavemen didn't pick their chiefs only on the basis who can punch the strongest but in S7 somehow only Slayers are fit to lead.

 

[Vengeance]

After the scoobs kick her out and they start formulating ideas on what to do next they don't even debate Buffy's idea (even though she's no longer there) so clearly they didn't think that much of it. I also think the portrayal of them as an army was stupid.

They do the same thing in S3, insisting they need to take the fight to the mayor if they want to stop the ascension. Was that lunacy as well? I don't think you can put it in the lunacy category to go and see what you're up against. She didn't know Caleb's strength, and after the battle, she found out. You lose a few people, but if we're sticking by the army comparison casualties are inevitable in war. If you never commit to battle, trying not to lose any of your forces you're not going to win. I don't even consider the battle a failure. The mission was to gain intel and she gained it.