Unpopular Rants, Opinions and Confessions II

[TheChosenTwo]

Everyone seems to live it, but I always thought: "When you kiss me, I wanna die" was a terrible quote and that Buffy said it in a hilarious way 😛

 

[KristenVictoria]

The first time I watched Angel Season Four, I was like, "What the heck on Earth is happening to one of my favourite shows?!" :frown3:

Now, watching it a second time, I have realized that it's a fantastic season!

 

[Icarium]

I love UO thread and I suspect some of my Os are going to be very U here (okay, let's stop abusing abbreviations now 🙂).

- Spike should never have returned after season two. The powers that be's endless pandering to his fans did much to help ruin the show.
- The very idea of human having a romantic relationship with a vampire is gross to me. That said, I love all the episodes of Buffy season 2 nevertheless which IMO speaks volumes about how good the season was since it's centered about Buffy/Angel, a pairing I don't care much about but it still manages to make me rewatch it over and over.
- Marti Noxon didn't ruin BtVS. Joss Whedon did.
- Season 5's main story arc is shockingly bad and full of more plot holes than even that of season seven.
- Willow's turn to evilness comes completely out of left field and is in no way, shape or form a plotline that had been setup for years.
- James Masters's acting is nothing to write home about. In BtvS alone he is outclassed by like half of the main cast (SMG, AH, ASH, EC, NB) and on AtS Denisof is so much better than everyone else that it's almost ridiculous.
- Seasons 1 and 4 of BtVS are better than Season 3.
- I love most of the songs in OMWF but I hate the events in the episode. Xander is a murderer and no one gives a damn? Are we in bizarro land or something?
- Riley is a nice guy who in retrospect got really lucky that things with Buffy didn't work out.
- Enemies is a stupid episode which makes no sense whatsoever upon rewatching. Good twists make you appreciate the episode more, the one here does the opposite.
- Dead Man's Party is outstanding.
- Normal Again is by a ridiculously big margin my favourite episode of the last two seasons. It still probably wouldn't qualify for the Top 15 overall.
- Connor is by far the most annoying AtS character.

 

[TheVoid68]

- I love most of the songs in OMWF but I hate the events in the episode. Xander is a murderer and no one gives a damn? Are we in bizarro land or something?

I completely agree! I always thought that OMWF was overrated, yes the dialogue is good and the songs and dance numbers are excellent, but Giles is singing about his OOC and stupid reason for leaving, Xander is an idiot, Buffy wangsts and snogs Spike and Willow mind-rapes Tara.

 

[Spiciu]

I really loved Dawn at the beginning of s5, she should have kept on with the diary monologues.
The writers just failed on her and used her only as an instrument for the other characters development instead of making a complete character of her own.

 

[The Ferg]

- Marti Noxon didn't ruin BtVS. Joss Whedon did.

Neither of them ruined BtVS. Nothing was ruined. But I'm curious as to why you think Joss Whedon ruined it though. Imo, he didn't, in no way, shape, or form.

- Season 5's main story arc is shockingly bad and full of more plot holes than even that of season seven.

Plot holes? Please explain.

 

[Icarium]

Neither of them ruined BtVS. Nothing was ruined. But I'm curious as to why you think Joss Whedon ruined it though. Imo, he didn't, in no way, shape, or form.

It would be a very long rant if I was to explain it in detail. Let's just say I think that just about everything that happened in season six and seven was dreadfully bad in quality and not just in its execution but in its very conception. Dark Willow, Spuffy, Anyanka 2.0., Tara's death, Evil Captain Mal...I mean Caleb, Generallismi Buffy, Only Spike, Andrew joining the Scoobs, etc.

Plot holes? Please explain.

"Dawn is made of me". Even if she had been (something that Buffy just guessed) this doesn't make Buffy a Key. Also the Monks sending the Key to Buffy in the first place. Surely they know that Glory is strong enough to wipe the floor with Buffy, what's the point of it all? In effect they send Dawn to the most dangerous town in the world and the only way Glory found her was by following the last surviving monk. Plot contrivances all around.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

It would be a very long rant if I was to explain it in detail. Let's just say I think that just about everything that happened in season six and seven was dreadfully bad in quality and not just in its execution but in its very conception. Dark Willow, Spuffy, Anyanka 2.0., Tara's death, Evil Captain Mal...I mean Caleb, Generallismi Buffy, Only Spike, Andrew joining the Scoobs, etc.

"Dawn is made of me". Even if she had been (something that Buffy just guessed) this doesn't make Buffy a Key. Also the Monks sending the Key to Buffy in the first place. Surely they know that Glory is strong enough to wipe the floor with Buffy, what's the point of it all? In effect they send Dawn to the most dangerous town in the world and the only way Glory found her was by following the last surviving monk. Plot contrivances all around.

As many of you know, I'm one of the most Spuffy hating people, but I don't think Joss ruined Buffy with season 6 and 7. They had some awesome episodes, like Tabula Rasa, OMWF, Selfless, Chosen etc. of course, if we ignore some personalities we don't like about the character in the two seasons, because maybe some of that personalities other people like, so I could never tell Joss or any other person who worked on the show, ruined it.

Dawn was made from Buffy. It was said in the show. And it doesn't make Buffy a Key. She can't open it, Dawn can. But Buffy can close it. As she did. Dawn was made from her, but she wasn't her. Just Like Eve was made from Adam, but she was completly other person. The Key was in danger with monks, and if the monks took the key somewhere else, Glory would follow them to that place, and if Dawn was with some other people, Glory would took her so easly, but with Buffy it wasn't that easy, she did gave her trouble. And without Dawn in Sunnydale, we wouldn't have plot for season 5.^^ Simple as that.

 

[TheVoid68]

Plot contrivances =/= plot holes. The only plot hole in S7 is the Olaf/hammer/Troll God retcon, but that's easy enough to ignore. And I do think that anything can be made good with the right execution, just as anything can be bad with poor execution. Spuffy for example had decent potential in S5 but I think had terrible execution. I think that Marti Noxon is as fault much more than Joss.

 

[Icarium]

I still think it's plot hole when a writer fails Logic 101. Getting from "Dawn is made of me" to "I can close the dimensional rift instead of her" is no mere leap of logic, it's like getting from "1+1=2" to "green is red". Yes, if the writer says so green can become red but this development would make no sense. Buffy using the key for her house to "lock" the rift would have made about as much sense as what actually happened in The Gift, IMO.

And I do think that anything can be made good with the right execution, just as anything can be bad with poor execution. Spuffy for example had decent potential in S5 but I think had terrible execution. I think that Marti Noxon is as fault much more than Joss.

It's not as if Whedon was on Mars, if he didn't like Noxon's execution of his ideas he could always have replaced her and put someone else in charge or told her to change this and that. Nothing in the episodes Whedon penned in the final season says to me his vision was all that different than Noxon's except for his blatantly apologistic attitude towards Spike as opposed to Noxon preferring to view him as a "bad boy".

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I still think it's plot hole when a writer fails Logic 101. Getting from "Dawn is made of me" to "I can close the dimensional rift instead of her" is no mere leap of logic, it's like getting from "1+1=2" to "green is red". Yes, if the writer says so green can become red but this development would make no sense. Buffy using the key for her house to "lock" the rift would have made about as much sense as what actually happened in The Gift, IMO.

You can look at it in this way. In history, especially in France, some rooms had two keys, one to open the door when you're walking in, and one to lock the door from the other side, or to open it when you're coming from the room, because they wanted to keep their house/castle safe from robers or maids who liked shiny silver in their pockets, so if they wanted to steal something, they could come on, but they couldn't come out. Of course, that other key was made only for rooms with nice stuff that only king or someone rich could enjoy them, and only the owner had an exit key to that rooms, but everyone had open keys to that rooms. Pretty smart if you ask me! So it's same with Buffy and Dawn. Dawn opened the portal, she was the open key, but Buffy closed it, she was the lock key, so no evil can come out from it anymore.

 

[The Ferg]

It would be a very long rant if I was to explain it in detail. Let's just say I think that just about everything that happened in season six and seven was dreadfully bad in quality and not just in its execution but in its very conception. Dark Willow, Spuffy, Anyanka 2.0., Tara's death, Evil Captain Mal...I mean Caleb, Generallismi Buffy, Only Spike, Andrew joining the Scoobs, etc.

Reading this makes me wonder why you even watch Buffy... Imo, there is something good about everything you listed, but I'm not going to get into specifics. Except this one thing... You don't like Andrew?!? I think even TheVoid likes Andrew! (I could be wrong obviously) Andrew is like half the reason why I love S7 so much.

I would reply to the S5-plot-holes stuff, but I think other people have handled my arguments pretty well. 😛

 

[Icarium]

You can look at it in this way. In history, especially in France, some rooms had two keys, one to open the door when you're walking in, and one to lock the door from the other side, or to open it when you're coming from the room, because they wanted to keep their house/castle safe from robers or maids who liked shiny silver in their pockets, so if they wanted to steal something, they could come on, but they couldn't come out. Of course, that other key was made only for rooms with nice stuff that only king or someone rich could enjoy them, and only the owner had an exit key to that rooms, but everyone had open keys to that rooms. Pretty smart if you ask me! So it's same with Buffy and Dawn. Dawn opened the portal, she was the open key, but Buffy closed it, she was the lock key, so no evil can come out from it anymore.

That's all nice but the fact of the matter is that even if the Monks had, for some arcane reason, turned Buffy into a sort of spare Key they failed to inform her of that. Hence her leap of logic was basically her doing something completely random and hoping it would work. Not my cup of tea at all, I prefer it when the characters do their research and come up with a plan based on more than the prickling of their thumbs. In The Gift Anya has a plan. Buffy has a hunch.

Reading this makes me wonder why you even watch Buffy

I love the first four seasons. I view the later seasons as not merely badly done but as a sort of antithesis of the first four, which is why I am so much against them.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

That's all nice but the fact of the matter is that even if the Monks had, for some arcane reason, turned Buffy into a sort of spare Key they failed to inform her of that. Hence her leap of logic was basically her doing something completely random and hoping it would work. Not my cup of tea at all, I prefer it when the characters do their research and come up with a plan based on more than the prickling of their thumbs. In The Gift Anya has a plan. Buffy has a hunch.

But, if they didn't created Dawn from Buffy, they would've created her from some other person, and then that person would've been lock key, just like Buffy was. Just like this it's more dramatic. What do you think they should've done?

 

[Icarium]

Who says they created Dawn from any person? And even if they did I really think claiming this person would have been a spare Key is a logical fallacy. Dawn's Keyness comes from her ball of energy past, not from whatever human the monks might have used to turn her into a girl. It's sort of like having a kid - if the father is blond but the baby has the black hair of the mother, this wouldn't magically turn the father into a guy with black hair, would it? The causality is in the opposite direction. Whoever the monks used as a "source" for creating Dawn, there is no reason whatsoever to change this person in the process.

Or, metaphors and fallacies aside, if the monks did turn Buffy into a spare Key, why didn't they bother to tell her that?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Glory saw Dawn glowing. If Dawn stayed as a material object, she would be glowing, and Glory would find her easy. Monks made her into human and gave her to the person who could protect her the most, and they didn't told her that because they were all killed, obviously.

Or we can put it simple as this.

No shiny energy, no Dawn, no plot for season 5, no more Buffy, so no great episodes = Bad Decission.
Shiny energy = Dawn
Dawn = Buffy
Buffy = season 5
Season 5 = More episodes = Good Decission.

 

[Icarium]

Monks made her into human and gave her to the person who could protect her the most, and they didn't told her that because they were all killed, obviously.

You do remember that the last surviving monk spoke with Buffy before he died, right? That's how she learned about the Key and the Beast in the first place. Why wouldn't he tell Buffy about making her a Key too?

Glory saw Dawn glowing. If Dawn stayed as a material object, she would be glowing, and Glory would find her easy.

So you think it's that easy to find one glowing object if you have no idea where in the world it is? I beg to differ.

More UOs, this time of the more positive variety.

- I love Killed by Death. The character interaction is superb, The Scoobs save Buffy a number of times, Coirdelia's great fun and while bleak the episode does feel as a breather between the tragedy and angst of Passion and IOHEFY.

- Some Assembly Required is in my Top 5 of S2.
- Triangle is my favourite S5 episode
- Prophecy Girl is easily the second best among the season finales. Primeval/Restless is third, Becoming first and the rest are like a galaxy behind as far as I am concerned.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Yes, I remember. And I also remember that happened in a minute because Glory almost killed them both. The most important thing to him was to tell her to protect the key. And maybe monks didn't knew what will happen to Buffy, maybe they didn't knew the power of the spell they used and how will it reflect on Buffy. And if they did, and if he toled her about that, the season would be a total bust, because we would all know Buffy would sacrafice herself for Dawn, because she is the one who needs to save the world, not Dawn. Because remember, Dawn became more then a key to her, she didn't only needed to save the world, she needed to protect her little sister. Buffy in the last minute realized what means "Death is your gift" and that they share the same blood. Buffy is a hero, and that was prooved with that episode. So why are you searching for little plot holes in that amazing epizode? Try to see the real beauty about it, it's about Buffy, not about Dawn.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy is a hero, and that was prooved with that episode. So why are you searching for little plot holes in that amazing epizode? Try to see the real beauty about it, it's about Buffy, not about Dawn.

Well, I think The Gift does exactly the opposite. For me the heroes in The Gift are Giles, Anya, Willow, even Dawn. Not Buffy. She refuses to kill Ben, knowing full well what danger Glory poses. She has the gall to say "the ritual starts we all die" and threatens to kill her supposed friends if they decide that no, they don't want to die in order for Dawn to get few minutes more of life. And yet through the miracle of sloppy writing Buffy's hunch is correct and her ridiculous plan works. Oz's plan of attacking the Mayor with humus was more tactically sound...For me that's not heroism. If I jump from my window and end up not only not killing myself but also winning the lottery by catching a winning ticket in the air I wouldn't consider this a great plan to get rich, I would consider it an incredible stroke of luck.

Furthermore, on a metaphorical level, The Gift is the exact opposite of what's established previously in Family and Blood Ties. In those episodes blood kinship or the lack of it didn't matter as long as one was accepted as part of the family. Suddenly in The Gift the Buffy-Dawn bond is more special than her bond with everybody else, because they are sisters and Dawn is literally made of Buffy. Everybody else can literally go to hell as far as Buffy is concerned, if that means Dawn gets a bit more life. I almost got whiplash from the ever-changing message...

Yes, I remember. And I also remember that happened in a minute because Glory almost killed them both. The most important thing to him was to tell her to protect the key. And maybe monks didn't knew what will happen to Buffy, maybe they didn't knew the power of the spell they used and how will it reflect on Buffy.

Or maybe someone couldn't be bothered to write a plot that made a lick of sense and just tried to hit the same notes as he had once done so much better in Becoming (Oh, noes, Buffy needs to kill a loved one to close the dimensional portal, much angst to follow) because that worked like a charm the first time around.

 

[GrrArghx]

No one made anyone a 'key'. Dawn was the key, but Dawn was MADE from Buffy. Buffy's blood runs through Dawn, no matter what. Which is why she said Dawn was her daughter as much as she was her sister.

Dawn's blood (which is Buffy's too) had to stop flowing for the portal to close. Buffy jumped, died, her blood stopped flowing. Makes sense to me.