Was Spike A Good Man?

[Taaroko]

I do think that Spike's unhealthy expression of his love is still love though.

I agree with Kairos. When love is genuine, it will be expressed in healthy ways, so all this "unhealthy expression of love" business is at best an oxymoron. And yeah, "unhealthy" is definitely too gentle a word to describe rape. Especially in cases like this, where nobody is physically or mentally unwell, just soulless.

I mean, it wouldn't be if he had a soul.... But since he doesn't, you can't expect him to properly know how to express his love.

Well of course not, because I can't expect him to be able to feel love at all, so that would make the decent expression of it rather difficult.

That is WHY he gets his soul.

Debatable, obviously. I say he got his soul as yet another ill-advised attempt to make Buffy love him. His flawed logic is quite simple, really: Buffy can't love him with no soul, so if he has one, she won't have any reason not to love him. He can't grasp the reality that there are a wealth of reasons why she doesn't love him, not merely his lack of soul. This explanation of Spike's thought process makes sense. It doesn't require a soulless being to feel emotions that are beyond him, such as guilt, remorse, and especially love, but it does justify the soul quest.

Because through that terribly disgusting unhealthy expression of his love, he learns that that is exactly what it is. Terrible, disgusting, and unhealthy and tries to seek a healthier and more appropriate expression.

Or he just learns that rape is not going to work as a wooing technique. On the other hand, soulfulness just might!

If you treat this terrible expression of love one that isn't actually love, then the rest of it makes no sense and appears to come out of the blue.

It makes much more sense to me than the idea that a being without a soul can feel love.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

To be honest, and I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me, I've never understood why people even try to excuse this.

Cognitive dissonance. Some fans idealize the character, whenever their fantasy is challenged they do whatever it takes to reduce the dissonance. It's irrational.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I'm not entirely sure how this kind of diverted into whether or not it's possible for rape/attempted rape to be an expression of love. Spike, in his own twisted, soulless way, loved Buffy. That in no way makes him a good man though. From the provided commentaries on the episode, Joss talked about how Spike didn't understand the boundaries of his relationship with Buffy. He may love Buffy without a soul, but he's clearly not "good". For what he understood love to be, he loved her though.

This is very close to what I've been trying to say. I mostly agree.

I want it said though that I wish they'd never done this stupid attempted rape story. I've talked about it at length before, but it's a case of Joss, who clearly has zero understanding of rape and what it means, thinking he's smarter than he actually is. I think he got a little obsessed with Spike and his place on the show, but wasn't able to come up with a legitimate method of furthering the development of the character. So to "shock" the audience, he wrote a rape angle into the plot.

Completely agree with you.

To be honest, and I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me, I've never understood why people even try to excuse this. I mean, no one tries to justify or explain away all the murders and atrocities Angelus or any other vampire has committed. I mean, they're soulless. They're evil. That's what makes Angel and Spike (post S6) special, that they have souls again. I mean, is it just liking the character? We get to know Spike, since he showed up in S2, really well as a character up until he does that to Buffy, so is that why? Even though he's "evil", we still like him? I can't think of another rational explanation. I mean, it's pretty clear that Angelus has raped Drusilla and butchered children, and no one (rightfully) tries to justify that. Why Spike?

Because of the good things Spike very clearly does, pre soul. Protecting Dawn. Happy that Buffy is happy even after they break up, ("You glow," Hell's Bells). Choosing not to do anything non-physical to hurt the scoobies, or getting any minions to do what he can't.
The simple fact that he shows progress--that he does choose right over wrong on numerous occasions between the end of 5 and 6 makes this horrible action in season 6 actually UNexpected from him, given the new behavior he's developed. "I never hurt you," he says to Buffy very earnestly the episode before. "I know," she says.
So it's a shock to everyone when this scene occurs,, (everyone that is who sees something more than a monster in Spike in the recent episodes, including Buffy and Dawn.)
It has nothing to do with liking the character--liking the character happens because of his development--it's not the other way around. It is an attempt to explain the contradictions.
We don't do this for the crimes of Angelus or any other vampire because without a soul these monsters are just murdering machines and most likely, given what we know to be true about their characters, were they chipped--the only thing that would change in their behavior is their physical actions toward others, though in every other way they would do everything they could to harm Buffy and her friends.

 

[ladydorotea]

Because of the good things Spike very clearly does, pre soul. Protecting Dawn. Happy that Buffy is happy even after they break up, ("You glow," Hell's Bells). Choosing not to do anything non-physical to hurt the scoobies, or getting any minions to do what he can't.

Methinks you are subverting the actual events of the show by completely omitting the behavior modification chip in Spike's head that effectively makes his 'choice not to hurt' humans for him; and at the same time makes him effectively a 'culled vampire' who cannot hunt and feed by himself and who - therefore - needs powerful protection. Thus protecting Down becomes imperative for his own well-being. If there was an instance in either one of Spike's chipped seasons when he goes out and protects a random unrelated human on the street - I would have been as puzzled as you at his acts later in S6 ( selling lethal demon eggs to terrorists and the AR). But we have never been shown anything like that. Moreover, you are omitting instances where Spike actively plots behind Scoobies backs and sides with their enemy to harm them in S4 - until it becomes clear that modifying his behavior is a better way to earn a virtual 'living'. Being happy that Buffy looks sexy and physically attractive ('glow') is kind of creepy actually - since he is saying this after she broke up with him and while bringing a new girlfriend in tow.

The simple fact that he shows progress--that he does choose right over wrong on numerous occasions between the end of 5 and 6

He is chipped at the time and all his 'right choices' are effectively done under duress - lack of blood source/inability to hunt - and therefore are a violation of 'free will' principle. Effectively making Spike into a puppet and subverting the Clock Work Orange plot into a supernatural melodrama.

makes this horrible action in season 6 actually Unexpected from him, given the new behavior he's developed.

Actually, they are completely expected from a soulles vampire. Especially if we remember Harmony painting Cordy's toes - then turning on the group that adopted her at first opportunity. Soulless means soulless. In fact Spike showing his true colors makes perfect sense and preserves the verse's mythology.

"I never hurt you," he says to Buffy very earnestly the episode before. "I know," she says.

Buffy is very much relying on her personal strength/chip, and her judgement is not always the best, IMHO. And she pays the price for it.

So it's a shock to everyone when this scene occurs,, (everyone that is who sees something more than a monster in Spike in the recent episodes, including Buffy and Dawn.)

And that's exactly the point of the scene - if you read commentaries from the writers etc. To remind everybody that a soulless vampire is always a monster. And to remind us why we all love this show so much - because it rarely breaks its inner logic to pander to the fans.

It has nothing to do with liking the character--liking the character happens because of his development--it's not the other way around. It is an attempt to explain the contradictions.

I respectfully disagree here. Methinks liking happens because of the bad boy allure here - and the writers brought the fandom back to Earth by showing exactly what was needed.

We don't do this for the crimes of Angelus or any other vampire because without a soul these monsters are just murdering machines and most likely, given what we know to be true about their characters, were they chipped--the only thing that would change in their behavior is their physical actions toward others, though in every other way they would do everything they could to harm Buffy and her friends.

But see, this is exactly why the writers did what they did with S6 plot - because by that time many of the audience was certain that were they ( i.e. every other vampire *but* Spike) chipped--the only thing that would change in their behavior is their physical actions toward others . While Spike was a very special snowflake of a vampire intrinsically 'good' etc. - you have spelled exactly the reason for your personal 'cognitive dissonance ' here - aka need to exonerate evil deeds of a character that is simply too cute to be evil. See Draco in Leather Pants trope for details on this one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants

 

[Robb Stark]

Methinks you are subverting the actual events of the show by completely omitting the behavior modification chip in Spike's head that effectively makes his 'choice not to hurt' humans for him; and at the same time makes him effectively a 'culled vampire' who cannot hunt and feed by himself and who - therefore - needs powerful protection. Thus protecting Down becomes imperative for his own well-being. If there was an instance in either one of Spike's chipped seasons when he goes out and protects a random unrelated human on the street - I would have been as puzzled as you at his acts later in S6 ( selling lethal demon eggs to terrorists and the AR). But we have never been shown anything like that. Moreover, you are omitting instances where Spike actively plots behind Scoobies backs and sides with their enemy to harm them in S4 - until it becomes clear that modifying his behavior is a better way to earn a virtual 'living'. Being happy that Buffy looks sexy and physically attractive ('glow') is kind of creepy actually - since he is saying this after she broke up with him and while bringing a new girlfriend in tow.

I'm not sure about this. I don't remember the chip ever being portrayed as altering Spike's desires or mental state. It prevents him from feeding on or harming humans, yes, but it clearly, to great comedic effect, doesn't change him wanting to feed on or hurt humans through most of S4, 5, and 6.

At this point, I don't think Spike is a good person at all, but he clearly does care for Buffy and Dawn. He goes out of his way to protect Dawn on a number of occasions, even when there's no perceivable benefit to himself. In that regard, I think he acts out of his feelings for Buffy, and not the chip. Yes, you can make the case that protecting Dawn was essential to his own well being, but I don't think Spike ever really gives that indication, especially after Buffy dies and there's nothing but Dawn (and presumably, the memory of Buffy through her) left for him in Sunnydale.

I'm not saying Spike is "good" without a soul. He's not. But he is complex, much more so than most vampires.

 

[Icarium]

And to remind us why we all love this show so much - because it rarely breaks its inner logic to pander to the fans.

Unfortunately, not so rarely, IMO. Let's see:

- Angel's convenient return after S2. Pure pandering with no explanation.
- Anya's presence in the show after Doppelgangland.
- Spike's presence in the show after Pangs
- Andrew's presence in the show after S6
- Dragging the Angel-Buffy-Spike love triangle to this very day because god forbid that one of the shipping factions lose hope for good.
- "Let's write out Riley and hook up Buffy with Spike because many fans want that".
- The supposedly ruthless Watcher's Council not killing Faith while she was in a coma.

So I guess I don't agree BtVS pandered very little, I think it did way, way too much pandering.

Actually, they are completely expected from a soulles vampire. Especially if we remember Harmony painting Cordy's toes - then turning on the group that adopted her at first opportunity. Soulless means soulless. In fact Spike showing his true colors makes perfect sense and preserves the verse's mythology.

Another example - Xander: Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done--nah, I can't even act surprised.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Methinks you are subverting the actual events of the show by completely omitting the behavior modification chip in Spike's head that effectively makes his 'choice not to hurt' humans for him; and at the same time makes him effectively a 'culled vampire' who cannot hunt and feed by himself and who - therefore - needs powerful protection.

I completely disagree. The chip doesn't make the choice for Spike not to hurt humans--it makes the choice not to PHYSICALLY hurt humans. If he wanted to hurt humans, there are a myriad of possible things he could have done in order to achieve that.
As for needing the protection of the scoobies--why? Spike was still completely lethal in the demon community--he could beat up whomever he wanted in order to get minions to get blood for him and provide him protection. With their help he can get human blood, he can get animal blood, he can get a nice coven to call home--all with the power of intimidation and the strength of a master vampire who knows how to kick serious demon ass. He needed nothing from Buffy or her wicca or her watcher in order to survive. And what of his safety?
Let's say he's worried Buffy will kill him if he doesn't pretend to be her bestest friend. Guess what? He could LEAVE Sunnydale.

So. Spike doesn't refrain from harming simply to survive. We've established that, I hope. So, why does he do it?

Moreover, you are omitting instances where Spike actively plots behind Scoobies backs and sides with their enemy to harm them in S4 - until it becomes clear that modifying his behavior is a better way to earn a virtual 'living'.

You're 100% right, I am. I am omitting those instances because I have never once claimed that Spike did any good at all in season 4, if it wasn't for cash. And he went out of his way to do the bad things which I said he could have done without a chip. In season 4, Spike was still Spike. He hadn't yet decided he was going to try to change--a process which begins only after he realizes that he wants Buffy to love him.
This is actually further proof of the first point in this post which is that Spike doesn't NEED to do good things in front of Buffy to survive. He CHOOSES to do them, only AFTER he realizes what he feels for her.
I would say, in case you're wondering, that the very first chronological example of a change within Spike is when he comforts Buffy on her front porch. He even points the gun at her and feels no pain, (it has been established that if he intent to hurt is not there, he can pick up a weapon without feeling pain). Realizing that what he wants to do is comfort her, not kill her, he joins her on the steps and pats her back.
Next, we get a lot of "wrong bloody calls" from him: kidnapping, victim tasting, bot making, etc. If you notice, with each one of those acts, when Buffy expresses displeasure at them, he stops doing them altogether. Not just in front of her, but entirely. That's when the progress begins to take shape.

Being happy that Buffy looks sexy and physically attractive ('glow') is kind of creepy actually - since he is saying this after she broke up with him and while bringing a new girlfriend in tow.

Ok, so here's what he could have done instead: he could have set her house on fire, after she broke up with him. Don't you think any other vampire, or the Spike of season 2, would have done just that? "An eye for an eye pet, you torch my place and I torch yours. I'll show you what you get when you break up with William the Bloody!" Instead, he admits that she looks happy and takes pleasure in it. Yes, he brings the girl to make her jealous. Big deal, quite a lot of people have--it doesn't make them bad or evil.

He is chipped at the time and all his 'right choices' are effectively done under duress - lack of blood source/inability to hunt - and therefore are a violation of 'free will' principle. Effectively making Spike into a puppet and subverting the Clock Work Orange plot into a supernatural melodrama.

Again, I don't understand how Spike is helpless or in duress or lacking of a blood source. He can pick locks, steal, and get others to do his bidding.

Actually, they are completely expected from a soulles vampire. Especially if we remember Harmony painting Cordy's toes - then turning on the group that adopted her at first opportunity.

As I saw it, Harmony painted Cordy's toes because she didn't have a chip and in order to convince Fang Gang that she was harmless and not wanting to suck their blood, she needed to do a very fine acting job. She went after Cordelia, making her believe she was the same old Harmony she'd always been, and that involved reminiscing and toe painting. It was all for the specific purpose of luring the gang into her trap.
Spike's good deeds were not, however, for the specific purpose of luring the Scoobies into a trap.

And that's exactly the point of the scene - if you read commentaries from the writers etc. To remind everybody that a soulless vampire is always a monster. And to remind us why we all love this show so much - because it rarely breaks its inner logic to pander to the fans.

I mostly agree: I think the point of the scene is to show that no matter how much progress he could make--no matter how close he could get to actually becoming a man--the demon inside would always be waiting to override any positivity within and he would revert to his horrible ways. I think that that was the message.

I respectfully disagree here. Methinks liking happens because of the bad boy allure here - and the writers brought the fandom back to Earth by showing exactly what was needed.

I don't know about the rest of the fandom, but I have very little tolerance for "the bad boy" and so there's no allure there for me. The 16-18 year old me was very different--bad boy allure was definitely my downfall in real life, and in fiction, my favorite was actually Angel, (take that however you want!) But now? Not interested. In fact, there isn't one other fictional character whom I truly adore who also happens to be a bad boy. Spike for me is actually the exception. I like him in spite of it, and I actually find his attitude in season 2 quite cheesy and tiresome.

you have spelled exactly the reason for your personal 'cognitive dissonance ' here - aka need to exonerate evil deeds of a character that is simply too cute to be evil.

Well, actually, I honestly don't have the time or the patience to go out of my way excusing anyone's behavior, least of all that of a TV character. And PS, I don't think Spike is cute. I mean, in the face, yes, but that's about it--and it's not unique to Spike.

 

[ladydorotea]

I'm not sure about this. I don't remember the chip ever being portrayed as altering Spike's desires or mental state. It prevents him from feeding on or harming humans, yes, but it clearly, to great comedic effect, doesn't change him wanting to feed on or hurt humans through most of S4, 5, and 6.

At this point, I don't think Spike is a good person at all, but he clearly does care for Buffy and Dawn. He goes out of his way to protect Dawn on a number of occasions, even when there's no perceivable benefit to himself. In that regard, I think he acts out of his feelings for Buffy, and not the chip. Yes, you can make the case that protecting Dawn was essential to his own well being, but I don't think Spike ever really gives that indication, especially after Buffy dies and there's nothing but Dawn (and presumably, the memory of Buffy through her) left for him in Sunnydale.

I'm not saying Spike is "good" without a soul. He's not. But he is complex, much more so than most vampires.

See, but I actually agree that Spike's chip does not change him into a good person - and that's what I cannot understand in many a Spuffy's/Spike fans, i.e. their belief that a chipped/unsouled vampire can 'change' to behave in a way that indicates they understand morality, difference between good and evil, sacrifice, etc. Because Spike does not understand difference between good and evil his behavioral swerves between abhorrent (sex bot, threatening to stake Dru in front of chained Buffy) and normal - protecting Dawn when asked, abstaining from kills are a norm to him. Because he truly cannot understand that protecting the weak is morally right thing to do - he does it out selfish reasons : getting into Buffy's favors while she is alive, then out of habit/to maintain some sort of relationship with the Scoobies when she is dead. The whole point of his turnaround during his 'Doctor' phase in S6 is to prove that killing the innocents to make a buck out of it does not horrify him - in fact he honestly thinks that he is going to support Buffy with the profits - and he think this is normal. Therefore, his so called 'development' while chipped is 'behavior modification', adaptation technique - akin to Harmony developing her 'rules' after vampires are outed and the Slayers are multiple and evermore threatening. Spike still lacks moral understanding of whats good or bad - but the chip subverts his free will and makes him adapt. ( See Masters interview in which he gushes about fun of playing a character who is virtually a 'lab rat' .)

I don't disagree that Spike with a soul gets to understand difference between good and evil and is therefore capable of being good - and of wanting to be good, and eventually of making great strides towards becoming a good man. I just totally disagree that anything he does pre-soul can be fully qualified as morally right choices done by a good person. He is simply not capable of such things.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm not sure about this. I don't remember the chip ever being portrayed as altering Spike's desires or mental state. It prevents him from feeding on or harming humans, yes, but it clearly, to great comedic effect, doesn't change him wanting to feed on or hurt humans through most of S4, 5, and 6.

Well I don't think it was mentioned on the show, but that would have been the point of the Chip, it works exactly like a anti-barking collar for a dog, the dog barks gets a bad reaction, this begins to change the dog, it thinks of barking as bad, or having bad consequences so doesn't do it - this is what the chip did for Spike.

I would think thats why the government did it, to modify Vampires, have them fight for them not against them, but we never got it explored!

I completely disagree. The chip doesn't make the choice for Spike not to hurt humans--it makes the choice not to PHYSICALLY hurt humans. If he wanted to hurt humans, there are a myriad of possible things he could have done in order to achieve that.

We don't know that, he couldn't even aim a toy gun at Xander in Yoko Factor. We don't know the full extent of what he could or couldn't do.

 

[Kairos]

I know we all have some pretty extreme beliefs about these characters, but this is the first time I've ever seen someone suggest that Harmony was smart enough to lure the gang into a trap.

 

[Taaroko]

I know we all have some pretty extreme beliefs about these characters, but this is the first time I've ever seen someone suggest that Harmony was smart enough to lure the gang into a trap.

I was rather shocked by that as well. Come on, guys, this is *Harmony*. She fled Sunnydale and figured Cordy would take her in if she was nice to her. Unlike most vampires, she was a spoiled rich girl when she was alive, and the idea of roughing it in the sewers was probably the least appealing idea imaginable. So she turns to Cordy and tries to live by her and her friends' rules. But hey, then this self-motivated group of vampires comes along, and suddenly she has a support group that won't stop her from drinking that tasty human blood.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I know we all have some pretty extreme beliefs about these characters, but this is the first time I've ever seen someone suggest that Harmony was smart enough to lure the gang into a trap.

Hah, um...I mean, it's been a while since I've seen the episode, but this is exactly what happens, no?
And actually, I'd argue quite strongly that it wasn't that Harmony was SMART enough to lure them, (all she did was realize she had to convince them she was "harmless"), but rather that they were DUMB enough to follow her.

So she turns to Cordy and tries to live by her and her friends' rules.

Erm, I don't believe this for a second. Harmony didn't intend to live by the rules of Cordy and her friends, she wanted to bring them to the leader of the cult in order to be accepted and get free meals or whatever the heck it was they were offering. It's quite clear by the end of the episode that Harmony had been playing the group, and they inexplicably trusted her because of her cheery disposition. Don't look at me, I didn't write the episode.

Now of course in Ats season 5, Harmony IS actually, inexplicably, living by the law like a bit fluffy bunny. If that's true--if vampires can just behave themselves for no reason at all, then Buffy is truly one of the worst characters in fiction. So, I basically choose to ignore this. And, I know, Spike, right?! So confusing--she's contradicting herself!
Spike is the exception, because it's a love story. Were it not for the chip and his unique disposition, he wouldn't have been able to control his evil impulses at all though he clearly does. He has to be, as you guys call it, a "special little snowflake" otherwise the morality of the Buffyverse is just a freaking mess.

 

[Taaroko]

Erm, I don't believe this for a second. Harmony didn't intend to live by the rules of Cordy and her friends, she wanted to bring them to the leader of the cult in order to be accepted and get free meals or whatever the heck it was they were offering. It's quite clear by the end of the episode that Harmony had been playing the group, and they inexplicably trusted her because of her cheery disposition.

False. First off, Cordy was the only one who trusted her, which was stupid. Angel wanted to kill her, but then decided it was more important to endear himself to Cordy by not killing her friend, which was also stupid (though not as stupid as it would have been if Harmony had actually posed much of a threat), and Wes and Gunn sort of followed suit. Second, Harmony spent an entire night with them before she encountered any cult vamps, so she couldn't have been working for the cult yet. During that time, she *did* play by Cordy's rules, even if she only did so grudgingly and without any comprehension of why such rules were necessary. Third, she sang for Lorne, who would have picked up on it if she'd already been plotting against the good guys. All he told her was to stick with Cordelia, which she ultimately failed to do.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Ok, folks, this thread isn't about Harmony. 🙂 You're free to create a new thread to discuss her, if you want, but let's get this back on topic, please!

 

[KellGreen]

To be honest, and I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me, I've never understood why people even try to excuse this. I mean, no one tries to justify or explain away all the murders and atrocities Angelus or any other vampire has committed. I mean, they're soulless. They're evil. That's what makes Angel and Spike (post S6) special, that they have souls again. I mean, is it just liking the character? We get to know Spike, since he showed up in S2, really well as a character up until he does that to Buffy, so is that why? Even though he's "evil", we still like him? I can't think of another rational explanation. I mean, it's pretty clear that Angelus has raped Drusilla and butchered children, and no one (rightfully) tries to justify that. Why Spike?

I don't do that exactly. The issue becomes that because Spike is the personification of gray area, he gets extra vitriol aimed at him, in that "well, if he could do anything good soulless, he should have been able to do everything good soulless." Soulless Spike tends to not get the same treatment as Angelus does, probably because he does't create a new ensoulled persona in S7. Beyond that, I found the writing to have him attack her like that way out of character, and a very poorly thought out catalyst for his soul. I don't recall any real indication that Spike ever raped anyone, beyond his own words when he's trying to get Buffy to kill him in S7, but I'll need to rewatch to see if there are other real references elsewhere. You can see that he feels completely horrified and disgusted what he tried to do, which IS in character for him.

Also, what does nonsoulled S2-S6 Spike have to do with souled S7 Spike, and/or human Spike's status as a good man (or not, depending on your POV)? (this is not aimed at Always Bangel, but just the tangent this thread has taken, in general)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't do that exactly. The issue becomes that because Spike is the personification of gray area, he gets extra vitriol aimed at him, in that "well, if he could do anything good soulless, he should have been able to do everything good soulless." Soulless Spike tends to not get the same treatment as Angelus does, probably because he does't create a new ensoulled persona in S7. Beyond that, I found the writing to have him attack her like that way out of character, and a very poorly thought out catalyst for his soul. I don't recall any real indication that Spike ever raped anyone, beyond his own words when he's trying to get Buffy to kill him in S7, but I'll need to rewatch to see if there are other real references elsewhere. You can see that he feels completely horrified and disgusted what he tried to do, which IS in character for him.

Also, what does nonsoulled S2-S6 Spike have to do with souled S7 Spike, and/or human Spike's status as a good man (or not, depending on your POV)? (this is not aimed at Always Bangel, but just the tangent this thread has taken, in general)

See this is one of the biggest problems I have, its that there isn't a division between pre and post souled Spike. With Angel his fans separate the two and know the difference. If someone says something against Angel, there is a general consensus of response from the replies, the opinion may be different but across the board there is a connection between them.
If you do the same with Spike, his fans all have different opinions on drawing the line, so some will say he's a great man because he got his soul, others will say there's a difference between souled and unsouled Spike and you can't hold him accountable for the attempted rape.

Now if we can't hold him accountable for the attempted rape because had no soul and was a vampire and that kinda violence is part of the vampire, then he can't be held accountable for getting the soul. That was unsouled Spikes decision, and Souled Spike has to deal with it. But the problem is his fans choose which parts to keep and which to ignore, so they'll say he's a good man because he wouldn't give up Dawn or he helped them fight evil in Season 4, and then again in Season 6 when Buffy was dead, but you mention the teaming up with Adam or the attempted rape and thats just wafted away as part of the Vampire nature and Spike isn't accountable for that. While others will say he is accountable for it, but has his soul now so thats the point we should start at for him being a good man.

Of course people do that with Angel to, but there is still an overall backbone the the thought that is similar.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Now if we can't hold him accountable for the attempted rape because had no soul and was a vampire and that kinda violence is part of the vampire,

I don't think I've encountered a fan of Spike's who doesn't hold him accountable for his assault on Buffy. Some of us claim that we believe, based on his reaction to the assault, that he wouldn't have gone through with raping her. But--and correct me people, if I'm wrong--I think the majority of us hold him accountable for attacking her. And so does he.

then he can't be held accountable for getting the soul.

He can be accountable for both.

But the problem is his fans choose which parts to keep and which to ignore

No offense meant by this but--this statement drives me crazy. We don't ignore anything--we acknowledge it all. Just because we have an explanation for something that might be contrary to what someone else believes, doesn't mean we ignore any aspect of his character. I've spent quite a lot of time on here picking apart almost every action of Spike's that I've seen, and categorized it into something which I believe is good, and something which I believe is bad. But I acknowledge that he is fully responsible for them all.

or he helped them fight evil in Season 4,

Again, sorry to speak for the masses but I've read a lot of posts by fellow Spike fans on the boards and I haven't seen anyone say that he's a good man because he helps fight evil in season 4. In season 4, I think the general consensus is that he fights evil only because he's bored and benefits from it financially. That's my firm opinion, anyway.

but you mention the teaming up with Adam or the attempted rape and thats just wafted away as part of the Vampire nature and Spike isn't accountable for that.

Spike is totally accountable for both.

While others will say he is accountable for it, but has his soul now so thats the point we should start at for him being a good man.

It's a bit more nuanced than this; even before the soul he did good things, even though that didn't make him a good man. We should judge the good things he does independent of the fact that he has no soul when he does them, and we can do that without deciding that he is a good person, through and through, (which I believe he isn't). Once he has a soul though, his actions are consistently good and he is compelled to do good in a way in which he wasn't before, so it's easier to decide that he is wholly good.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't think I've encountered a fan of Spike's who doesn't hold him accountable for his assault on Buffy. Some of us claim that we believe, based on his reaction to the assault, that he wouldn't have gone through with raping her. But--and correct me people, if I'm wrong--I think the majority of us hold him accountable for attacking her. And so does he.

I have, quite a few. I've seen people say it was cuz he was a vampire, others say that he didn't do anything because he was stopped so nothing happened and others say he was just about the stop also.
Thats the thing with Spike, every action has to have the explanation.
I'm perfectly fine with not holding him accountable for it because he went and got a soul and is a different person now, this is what happened with Angel and it's set up as canon that Vampires sould and unsouled are different.

Why do you think he wasn't going to go through with what he started, I haven't heard someone say that in a while, and I used to find it to be one of the most annoying beliefs, as I see no back up for it. From what he says, it's incredibly clear what his intentions are, and it's not till Buffy physically kicks him off that he snaps out of it. Now I think he did snap out of it came to his senses and didn't keep trying, but thats not the same thing and stopping, he was caught up in a moment there and wouldn't have stopped?


I also should have said that my statement were aimed at the masses to, doesn't apply to everyone, but from what I've encountered over the years it is something I've seen.

Again, sorry to speak for the masses but I've read a lot of posts by fellow Spike fans on the boards and I haven't seen anyone say that he's a good man because he helps fight evil in season 4. In season 4, I think the general consensus is that he fights evil only because he's bored and benefits from it financially. That's my firm opinion, anyway.

Again I have, and I'm almost certain someone in either this thread or the Angel one brought it up as a point recently, I'll have to reread to check.

 

[KellGreen]

Now if we can't hold him accountable for the attempted rape because had no soul and was a vampire and that kinda violence is part of the vampire, then he can't be held accountable for getting the soul. That was unsouled Spikes decision, and Souled Spike has to deal with it. But the problem is his fans choose which parts to keep and which to ignore, so they'll say he's a good man because he wouldn't give up Dawn or he helped them fight evil in Season 4, and then again in Season 6 when Buffy was dead, but you mention the teaming up with Adam or the attempted rape and thats just wafted away as part of the Vampire nature and Spike isn't accountable for that. While others will say he is accountable for it, but has his soul now so thats the point we should start at for him being a good man.

Of course people do that with Angel to, but there is still an overall backbone the the thought that is similar.

So, not accountable for unconsionable actions = no notice of good actions done whilst lacking a soul/conscience/morality/etc.? The baseline for vamps per the show has been atrociously amoral behaviour, so anything above that, is admirable. That he was able to do good without the capity to fully understand good is worthy of note.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

So, not accountable for unconsionable actions = no notice of good actions done whilst lacking a soul/conscience/morality/etc.? The baseline for vamps per the show has been atrociously amoral behaviour, so anything above that, is admirable. That he was able to do good without the capity to fully understand good is worthy of note.

I would think you have to take the one with the other, if he's responsible for good then he should have to take full responsibility for the bad, yet he shows no real sign of remorse for some of the stuff he's done.
For example what he said to Wood about his mom, was pretty heartless and basically said I'm not responsible for her death 'I was a vampire she was a slayer'