Was Spike A Good Man?

[EffyStonem]

Nothing in my post indicated that I dislike Spike or am a Spike hater, nor was my post anti-Spike. I was simply offering my opinion on whether Spike grew without a soul. It is my personal belief that he didn't truly change and that the chip makes it look like he has.

 

[zobothehobo]

Nothing in my post indicated that I dislike Spike or am a Spike hater, nor was my post anti-Spike. I was simply offering my opinion on whether Spike grew without a soul. It is my personal belief that he didn't truly change and that the chip makes it look like he has.

Your previous posts have indicated that you dislike Spike. My response to your post wasn't suggesting your post suggested there was something bad about Spike...my response was more in response to the fact that you've posted Spike negative things (or what I perceive as Spike negative things, if they're not Spike negative, correct me) and yet you hold this opinion which seems counterintuitive for me because I've used this opinion to counter the dislike of Spike. It was more of a "well if you feel this way, why do you not like him"

 

[EffyStonem]

Your previous posts have indicated that you dislike Spike. My response to your post wasn't suggesting your post suggested there was something bad about Spike...my response was more in response to the fact that you've posted Spike negative things (or what I perceive as Spike negative things, if they're not Spike negative, correct me)

The original post you quoted was not meant to be negative, I was simply sharing my interpretation of Spike, an interpretation which may have negative aspects but is not negative overall.

and yet you hold this opinion which seems counterintuitive for me because I've used this opinion to counter the dislike of Spike. It was more of a "well if you feel this way, why do you not like him"

The opinion that Spike can love? So what if he can? Love does not equal goodness nor likeability.

The bottom line is that you are upset with certain opinions that I have, which I get, it's hard to hear different interpretations of one's favourite characters, especially if the interpretation includes things we don't like. However, I am allowed to like or to dislike any character I choose, regardless. Addiotionally I am allowed to dislike any character I want for the same reasons that you like them.

I do not hate Spike. I dislike certain aspects of his character and I love other aspects. He is not one of my favourite characters by far but there are lots of characters I truly hate and Spike isn't one of them.

 

[Summerlilly]

Spike wanted to be a good man. To me, that says a lot.

 

[ladydorotea]

Spike wanted to be a good man. To me, that says a lot.

For a soulless being with no scale of morality wanting to be a good man is about as meaningful as wanting to be a good break dancer - both categories attract chicks - from the wanter's perspective.

 

[kittenpoker]

For a soulless being with no scale of morality wanting to be a good man is about as meaningful as wanting to be a good break dancer - both categories attract chicks - from the wanter's perspective.

Ok, I get that you hate spike!! That's very clear, but try and be a little fair. When we first meet him, we learn that he is utterly and completely devoted to Dru. So, he's capable of caring and giving and loving. He brings flowers for Joyce with no card (not looking for recognition) He risks his "life" to help Dawn steal that demon's eggs to do a spell to raise Joyce from the dead, even though he thinks it's a bad idea. He grabs a sword by the blade - giving buffy a chance to fight.... I could go on and on and on....

I know, you hate him for what he did in Seeing Red....But he's done a lot of good too. Can't you acknowledge any of it?

 

[white avenger]

I know, you hate him for what he did in Seeing Red....But he's done a lot of good too. Can't you acknowledge any of it?

This is the classic example of one "Aw, s**t" cancelling out a dozen "Attaboys." Whether "Seeing Red" is the actual reason for some people hating Spike, or is just the excuse that they use to justify hating him in the first place, at least Buffy and Spike managed to work past it, even if neither the scoobies nor fans didn't.

 

[ladydorotea]

Ok, I get that you hate spike!!

I don't hate him per se, it is more on the 'despise' spectrum. Actually. Despise and yet enjoy it when he is making me laugh - yet again. And chuckle at how wickedly egocentric, remorseless and selfish he is - with or without soul - even when he is supposedly doing something 'good'. Some characters are like that - you love to 'hate ' them, but not really hate in a this guy should have been staked way. More of a this guy should have stayed a perky villain - melodrama does not become him.

That's very clear, but try and be a little fair. When we first meet him, we learn that he is utterly and completely devoted to Dru. So, he's capable of caring and giving and loving.

Sure, like bringing her rats with her morning paper, new bird to starve to death now and then, and lil orphans from the 'Orphanage in Vienna' - to keep as pets and die same way her birds die - I bet. Soooorry, but Bonnie and Clyde style romance just does not cut it for me. Spike and Dru are fascinating together in a very dark and disturbing way, but there is nothing 'caring' or 'loving ' there to like for me personally. Especially since their final scene together involves Spike begging chained to the wall Buffy to order him stake his 'beloved' Dru - so he can prove his great soulless luv in this way.

He brings flowers for Joyce with no card (not looking for recognition)

And makes sure he is caught while doing this.

He risks his "life" to help Dawn steal that demon's eggs to do a spell to raise Joyce from the dead, even though he thinks it's a bad idea.

Well, he does a lot of other bloody stupid things out of sheer lust for adrenaline rush and to get the kicks. I don't see why helping Dawn to almost succeed in raising a zombie mom is a such admirable deed.

He grabs a sword by the blade - giving buffy a chance to fight.... I could go on and on and on....

Sure, so that later he can try to get into her pants - again. try quoting Spike saving somebody - anybody who is in no way important to Buffy - and you will not likely find an example even in AtS S5. (Except for the 'lets get some Hooch and listen to Sex Pistols' case).

I know, you hate him for what he did in Seeing Red....But he's done a lot of good too. Can't you acknowledge any of it?

Yes, I do hate him trying to rape woman he supposedly 'loves', but I also see him as a selfish bastard (with tender side) for the rest of the series. And I honestly acknowledge that having a funny selfish bastard character worshiped by half the female audience of the series is wicked - but not surprising.

The funniest part though is - that in RL I prefer blond frail men. LOL My husband used to look a lot like Spike, 😛. Except that unlike you-know-who he is truly a good man. So my antipathy to the character is purely plot-related.

 

[kittenpoker]

I don't hate him per se, it is more on the 'despise' spectrum. Actually. Despise and yet enjoy it when he is making me laugh - yet again. And chuckle at how wickedly egocentric, remorseless and selfish he is - with or without soul - even when he is supposedly doing something 'good'. Some characters are like that - you love to 'hate ' them, but not really hate in a this guy should have been staked way. More of a this guy should have stayed a perky villain - melodrama does not become him.

But I think it does. Remember, as William he was very melodramatic.

And makes sure he is caught while doing this.

What makes you think this?

Well, he does a lot of other bloody stupid things out of sheer lust for adrenaline rush and to get the kicks. I don't see why helping Dawn to almost succeed in raising a zombie mom is a such admirable deed.

Because he did it for her!!!! Even though he didn't agree. Even though he would gain nothing - actually probably lose Buffy's admiration a bit. He did it for Dawn.

Sure, so that later he can try to get into her pants - again. try quoting Spike saving somebody - anybody who is in no way important to Buffy - and you will not likely find an example even in AtS S5. (Except for the 'lets get some Hooch and listen to Sex Pistols' case).

Does Dru count? What about the world? (But of course, the world is important to buffy 🙂)

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=8551]Summerlilly[/MENTION]

Spike wanted to be a good man.

I think mostly he wanted to have sex with the slayer. Here's a quote:

I knew. I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be f-

Spike's a vampire, he's driven by two things - sex and blood. Buffy's both.

[MENTION=11292]kittenpoker[/MENTION]

He risks his "life" to help Dawn steal that demon's eggs to do a spell to raise Joyce from the dead, even though he thinks it's a bad idea.

And that's good?

Spike turned his own mother into an undead monstrosity. He knows well that no matter what comes back, it won't be Joyce, but, surprise, surprise, an undead monstrosity, he experienced it, he even knows a thing about necromancy and yet, he decides to go through with it. He helps a 14 year old, grieving child turn her mother's corpse into a zombie.

It's one of the most outrageously evil things Spike has ever done, ever.

 

[EffyStonem]

This is the classic example of one "Aw, s**t" cancelling out a dozen "Attaboys." Whether "Seeing Red" is the actual reason for some people hating Spike, or is just the excuse that they use to justify hating him in the first place, at least Buffy and Spike managed to work past it, even if neither the scoobies nor fans didn't.

I honestly don't understand how this is used as a positive argument. Spike sexually assaulted her. I repeat, Spike sexually assaulted her. She should not have "worked past it". She should not have allowed him back in her life, especially not in a romantic sense. And fans should not be finding this beautiful or romantic or wonderful or proof that the Spike/Buffy relationship is meant to be.

Spike brutally attacked Buffy in a sexual manner and so many fans seem to brush it off as if it were nothing more than a small slap fight.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is the classic example of one "Aw, s**t" cancelling out a dozen "Attaboys." Whether "Seeing Red" is the actual reason for some people hating Spike, or is just the excuse that they use to justify hating him in the first place, at least Buffy and Spike managed to work past it, even if neither the scoobies nor fans didn't.

My problem isn't that Buffy forgave Spike, within the context of the T.V. show. I think, when you consider the sheer scope of things both Spike and Angel have done without a soul, it's pretty clear that Buffy draws a line in the sand over what an ensouled vampire bears responsibility for, which I am more than fine with as a fan. That's not my issue.

My problem is the message it sends to the viewer. For better or worse, murder is a common plot device in film and television, and viewers are desensitized to it. That is not the case with rape. At all. And rape hits home with far more people because far more people have a personal connection with it than they do with murder. The majority of fans don't analyze the show like we do, and as a result what they see is Buffy forgiving the man who tried to rape her, and it's portrayed in this magical, romantic light. From a symbolic, metaphorical standpoint, That. Is. Wrong.

This is only compounded by Spike joking and acting towards the Scoobies the same way he did without a soul, which in the mind of the average viewer, makes him seem like he didn't change anything, and has always been the same guy. That didn't happen with Angel. Character wise, yes, it makes sense. Message wise, it's atrocious.

 

[ladydorotea]

But I think it does. Remember, as William he was very melodramatic.

And it was the main reason for him to enjoy being turned. I just find human William tedious and pathetic. Betting his life's worth on his inability to get laid and continuing to write bad poetry, while secretly hating himself never was a big fat brownie in my books. So when Spike is showing his 'vulnerable side' - I find him the most boring and predictable. We all have vulnerable sides. The trick is to be able to be humorous about it , not to milk it for getting female consideration. Men who exploit their vulnerable side to get into women's pant gain no sympathy from me.

What makes you think this?

Remember Buffy joking about putting a collar with a bell on Angel? Vampires are supposed to be uber-stealthy when they want. Getting caught like that - instead of coming in the deep of night and leaving the flowers in secret felt fairly deliberate.

Because he did it for her!!!! Even though he didn't agree. Even though he would gain nothing - actually probably lose Buffy's admiration a bit. He did it for Dawn.

Spike agreed to do a dumb and dangerous thing together with Dawn because it sounded like fan and possibly gave him bragging rights after the fact. If he tried to talk her out of it instead I would have felt more sympathy.

Does Dru count? What about the world? (But of course, the world is important to buffy 🙂)

Dru is a darker incarnation of Spike's obsession so, no, she does not count. Try the homeless guy with bad breath, ruined liver and bad case of a rash, on a random bench in a park. We never did- and never will - see Spike save one of these. When he goes for one of those - I will admit I was wrong about him.

Also dieing like a super-star up on stage while admired by a beautiful woman who is even driven to say something as silly as - I love you - just to make him feel better sure does feel like doing it for Buffy, don't you think? It is much more difficult to die alone , without anybody telling you how good you are...


PS
And yes, the sexual assault part. I have to say that if you never been brutally and violently sexually assaulted in your entire life - you will never get it *why* this is such an unforgivable and triggering issue to see a victim of that sexual assault cuddle and care for her would-be rapist. It is just inconceivable to understand why such a plot in - even in a television show- causes such a painful and violent rejection. It is on much more instinctive level than rational one. Sorry. If you never been through this kind of experience - you'll never get it.

 

[kittenpoker]

I'm sorry for wherever happened to you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gum Gnome33]

And yes, the sexual assault part. I have to say that if you never been brutally and violently sexually assaulted in your entire life - you will never get it *why* this is such an unforgivable and triggering issue to see a victim of that sexual assault cuddle and care for her would-be rapist. It is just inconceivable to understand why such a plot in - even in a television show- causes such a painful and violent rejection. It is on much more instinctive level than rational one. Sorry. If you never been through this kind of experience - you'll never get it.

I'm so sorry for all the pain caused to all in this discussion by this scene in particular, and by this very discussion. But I do understand and I do get it, because I am someone who struggled with the concept of Buffy resuming a relationship with her would-be murderer in season 3. I really, really don't want to get personal here and to discuss why but I will say that I struggled with this concept for some time, and eventually made peace with the fact that so long as a clear line was drawn between soulless deeds and the fluffy vampire with whom Buffy resumes a relationship, it was ok. When it happened all over again with Spike in season 6/7, I came to the same conclusion.

I'm NOT SAYING at ALL that because I reached that particular conclusion, I expect others to do the same in light of their own experiences. I respect very much that people feel the way they do for a reason.

It also saddens me that people think that because some fans are enthusiastic about the fact that Buffy forgave the newly ensoluled Spike it means that we shrugged off the bathroom scene, or worse--sexual assault as a whole. Obviously I can't speak for everyone but it is true that Spike's eagerness to win back his soul to control his demon once and for all, (to no longer be "not a monster, not a man,") plays a big part in my ability to do so. It's not that I didn't take it seriously or that it was easy to look in the other direction. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I guess I just really want people to understand that.

With that in mind, I seriously just want to extend an OLIVE BRANCH to everyone involved in this discussion. At the end of the day, a lot of the most heated debates where Spike, Angel, and Buffy's forgiveness of both are concerned, have to do with people's pain. A lot of us are arguing with each other, inspired by personal trauma which gives us greater disdain for one vampire over the other insofar as it concerns Buffy in particular. And maybe we'll never be able to look at it objectively. But I think the one thing we can all agree on, no matter how heated things get, is that we all wish each other the best.

This is only compounded by Spike joking and acting towards the Scoobies the same way he did without a soul, which in the mind of the average viewer, makes him seem like he didn't change anything, and has always been the same guy. That didn't happen with Angel. Character wise, yes, it makes sense. Message wise, it's atrocious.

But actually, when Spike comes back he never again jokes and acts toward the Scoobies the way he did when he was soulless. He spends half of the season voluntarily chained up, a quarter hanging his head whenever they're nearby, an eighth chastising them for the way they treat Buffy and another eighth being controlled by the First. In any case, he's quite different upon returning.

 

[ladydorotea]

But I do understand and I do get it, because I am someone who struggled with the concept of Buffy resuming a relationship with her would-be murderer in season 3.

LOL - !!! pets you gently on the head - obviously you do - because you have been a victim of an attempted murder at some point in your life and you are sooo traumatized. Somebody jumped you deep in the night and tried to murder you. Please accept my deepest sympathy.

Seriously - drop the hypocrisy. That's one part of Spuffy-talk I really hate. The Hypocrisy part. Hate me , resent me, but pleas don't try to 'understand', because honestly - you can't.

I really, really don't want to get personal here

Oh yes you do. You guys always do.

I respect very much that people feel the way they do for a reason.

You do not. Otherwise you won't be back here arguing.

It also saddens me

No, it does not, what saddens you , is the fact that rape is unforgivable offense to those who went through it, and you are trying to find wiggle room.

because some fans are enthusiastic about the fact that Buffy forgave the newly ensoluled Spike

But see, I don't believe she truly did. Because - nobody can. She did her best to mask it, but deep inside she knows 'even he' deserves better than me - because I am sullied - and he is the one who sullied nme - so IO am tainted forever but even he deserves better. And you still champion/ embrace this kind of perversion.

it means that we shrugged off the bathroom scene, or worse--sexual assault as a whole.

No you - don't.( I heard peeps masturbate on this scene.)

Obviously I can't speak for everyone but it is true that Spike's eagerness to win back his soul to control his demon once and for all, (to no longer be "not a monster, not a man,") plays a big part in my ability to do so. It's not that I didn't take it seriously or that it was easy to look in the other direction. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I guess I just really want people to understand that.

And I believe I am out of any kind of attempts to make Spuffies understand WHY what he did is truly not forgivable. The heck with it. You can't get it, you need to grow up to get it.

With that in mind, I seriously just want to extend an OLIVE BRANCH to everyone involved in this discussion.

Seriously - just try to never talk to me again. Seriosly. I apologize to the mods.

where Spike, Angel, and Buffy's forgiveness of both are concerned, have to do with people's pain.

You, f***ng not. All you have to deal with is your personal affliction to a show and sexy looking character. You never were in pain or grief. In the end of day - you are just trying to make yourself feel comfortable.

 

[Robb Stark]

LOL - !!! pets you gently on the head - obviously you do - because you have been a victim of an attempted murder at some point in your life and you are sooo traumatized. Somebody jumped you deep in the night and tried to murder you. Please accept my deepest sympathy.

Seriously - drop the hypocrisy. That's one part of Spuffy-talk I really hate. The Hypocrisy part. Hate me , resent me, but pleas don't try to 'understand', because honestly - you can't.

You, f***ng not. All you have to deal with is your personal affliction to a show and sexy looking character. You never were in pain or grief. In the end of day - you are just trying to make yourself feel comfortable.

This was a disgusting post. There was zero, and I mean zero, call for this. Everything that was previously posted by [MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] was said with good intentions, and was as good a post as any I've seen at getting people to lay down their swords. I've agreed with you almost the entire way in this thread but this was an absolute spit in the face to someone who was trying to be nice to you.

This is an internet discussion board. We don't "know" each other. Not really. For you to presume anything about someone's personal life who you've never met, especially when they're trying to be kind-hearted towards you, is not only the height of arrogance, it's mean. It's cold, and it's not called for. If you think for one second that you're the only person in the world who has had traumatic events happen to you, or that yours give you the right to be cruel, then you're not only wrong, you're deluded.

There is no reason not to treat people with respect. Grow up.

 

[EffyStonem]

LOL - !!! pets you gently on the head - obviously you do - because you have been a victim of an attempted murder at some point in your life and you are sooo traumatized [...] you are just trying to make yourself feel comfortable.

This was gross. That entire post (which I refuse to re-post in full) was unnecessary and downright rude. It was completely uncalled for.

Let me tell you something. I understand. I get it. I understand the anger when someone talks about how Spuffy is a beautiful ship. I understand the hatred of the ship and by extension Spike. I know the frustration of having to face the fact that people who haven't been through sexual assault will never be able to understand the trauma it leaves behind. But I would never post something like that. There is absolutely no reason to try to make yourself feel better by being that awful to another person.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

LOL - !!! pets you gently on the head - obviously you do - because you have been a victim of an attempted murder at some point in your life and you are sooo traumatized. Somebody jumped you deep in the night and tried to murder you. Please accept my deepest sympathy.

Yes, you are correct. Take out "try" and replace "you" with loved one, and you are correct.


Don't worry guys. I'm not afraid of bullies or bezoars. And I stand by my original sentiment. Wishing everyone the best. 🙂

 

[Robb Stark]

But actually, when Spike comes back he never again jokes and acts toward the Scoobies the way he did when he was soulless. He spends half of the season voluntarily chained up, a quarter hanging his head whenever they're nearby, an eighth chastising them for the way they treat Buffy and another eighth being controlled by the First. In any case, he's quite different upon returning.

This is the only part I disagree with. I thought his relationship with Andrew was very much like the old Spike, and in S5 of Angel he interacts with everyone there pretty much exactly in the same way he does with the Scoobies in S4. He even dresses exactly the same. I mean, I get it, Spike is an incredibly popular character and no matter what they do to him they aren't going to change some of the key things that made him so popular, but I thought it blurred the lines between "soul Spike" and "non-soul Spike". Especially as the character progressed.

With Angel, it was very, very clear that Angelus was radically different than Angel. They didn't even act remotely in the same way. As a fan, as someone who really likes Spike, it doesn't bother me (really) and I can see the difference. But to the casual fan, I thought it sent a poor message.

But thinking about it, yes, he is quite different with Buffy, Dawn, Willow and a few others. I should have specified.