"What Caused This?" "Spike."

[white avenger]

Part of the final scene in "Chosen" was Giles looking back at the crater and saying, "I don't understand. What caused this?" to which Buffy simply replies, "Spike."

My question is, did she ever mention, or did Giles ever apologize for, taking part in the plot to kill Spike, considering just how monumentally wrong that decision would have been? Or do you think that there ever was, or should have been, any mention of it afterward?

Personally, I would have HAD to say something like, "Spike. You know, the guy who you never trusted. The guy who wouldn't have been here to save the day if your and Wood's little plan had succeeded. The guy who you can thank the rest of your life for every single breath that you draw after today. Spike."

But then I'm just a vindictive old man. Lots of people tell me that, all of the time.

 

[caitaintdead]

I actually find it weird that at this point no one turns around and says

"For God's sake Buffy, that is not a bloody answer! HOW did Spike DO it? We're not friggen mind readers you know! Well you know, except for Willow, occasionally... when it furthers the plot"

 

[zobothehobo]

I always hoped that that was something we didn't see but Buffy would have said if it was real. And I always hoped Giles and Robin felt guilty about trying to kill Spike. It's also something I always yell at the computer every time I watch. I'm always like "Yeah Giles. Spike saved world. It's a good thing you didn't KILL HIM!"

 

[Kana]

We cannot judge the actions of Giles and Buffy on the events of Chosen. All we can judge them on is situation as it stood in LMPTM. Now I do agree that Giles went too far in trying have Spike killed, for several reasons. The plan itself was ill conceived and it placed many people in danger and the duplicity in itself in destructive to the group dynamic. From a Kantian perspective it's also a nightmare: sacrificing Spike to potentially save many of the girls.

This said, it wasn't Giles being personal. He only 'preferred' Angel because he never bothered deferring to Buffy when he removed himself as a threat.

Going back to issue at hand, even if Giles were to apologize for attempting to have Spike killed, it shouldn't be because he saved the world. From a Kantian perspective Spike as a soulled being should have the right to live. Also he is relatively innocent as far as his 'failings' are concerned. This said, Giles wasn't punishing Spike as much as trying to protect the world. The fact that he did save the world is only partially relevent, because I don't remember Giles doubting Spike's intentions, more that he saw him as a potential threat and him saving the world had little to do with his skills as a warrior, but more with his ability to wear a deus ex machina amulet which other, more than human warriors could have worn. Even if we argue that Angel and Faith were not around at the time, I'd argue that the amulet wasn't either.

The main point of Spike and his connection was Buffy was emotional, not simply practical. Giles was right about her feelings for Spike affecting her judgement, but that's part of the package with Buffy. Her emotional ties are both her strength and her weakness. I still reckon any more than human warrior could have done what Spike done, but only Spike could give Buffy the emotional support and loyalty that kept her fighting spirit strong even though she was under immense.

It reminds me of Angel and Cordy. When Cordy argues that Angel wouldn't need her if she didn't have the visions, Angel answers that her visions is not the reason he needs her, just as much as Buffy's interest in Spike is not just as a warrior.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

He better not have apologized, as he wqas in the right.

Spike was a ticking time bomb and Buffy stuck him in their home, she was stupid.

And if she had said that, he could have just said "meh, if I'd killed Spike, Angel would have just worn the amulet, he ain't that special."

 

[zobothehobo]

He better not have apologized, as he wqas in the right.

Spike was a ticking time bomb and Buffy stuck him in their home, she was stupid.

And if she had said that, he could have just said "meh, if I'd killed Spike, Angel would have just worn the amulet, he ain't that special."

Buffy was right... she needed Angel to lead the second front if it got past Sunnydale. They had no idea what the amulet would have done and it would have been stupid to have Angel wear it.

 

[Washburne]

Personally, I would have HAD to say something like, "Spike. You know, the guy who you never trusted. The guy who wouldn't have been here to save the day if your and Wood's little plan had succeeded. The guy who you can thank the rest of your life for every single breath that you draw after today. Spike."

If this is 100% serious (which I highly doubt but just in case) I have to agree with a lot of people or maybe put another phrasing on it. 😉 If it isn't 100% serious I guess it's just not my kind of humour. A comment like that feels to be to be on the same level as :nana: nah,nah,nah. *kind of singing* I was right, you were wrong... once you already know the outcome.

My question is, did she ever mention, or did Giles ever apologize for, taking part in the plot to kill Spike, Or do you think that there ever was, or should have been, any mention of it afterward?.

I don't know if there's anything official about this. I haven't memorized the comics or all interviews on the subject.

Do I think Giles should have apologized? No. And if he had it should have been done before the end of Chosen. Do I think there should be a mentioning of Giles being wrong? Absolutely not. Not many people can tell the future. If he had to apologize Buffy herself has lots and lots of things to apologize for as well. Do I think that Buffy needed to bring it up as a case of trust issues? Yes. Don't remember if it was brought up in the show though. That people don't agree with you is one thing, them trying to kill one of the "people" you have around, trust and confide in something else.

Who knows. Maybe the thing with Spike hadn't gone right, What if he had ended up killing and injuring a lot of people including Buffy before Kennedy staked him. Then what? When you have the answer to something it's easy to bend things your way.





I'm not as serious about this as it might seem. I just... It feels meh to me and I'm bored. I apologize for that.

 

[VisionGirl]

My question is, did she ever mention, or did Giles ever apologize for, taking part in the plot to kill Spike, considering just how monumentally wrong that decision would have been? Or do you think that there ever was, or should have been, any mention of it afterward?.

I don't know if it ever was discussed. There was a lot "not discussed" between Giles & Buffy. I'm very dissatisfied in how issues in their relationship were NOT resolved either in season 7 or in season 8. A hug might make everything OK for some relationships, but not this one, IMO of course.

This said, it wasn't Giles being personal. He only 'preferred' Angel because he never bothered deferring to Buffy when he removed himself as a threat.

I already said that I loved your whole post, but I didn't quite understand this last sentence. Why exactly did Giles prefer Angel?

 

[Kana]

I don't know if it ever was discussed. There was a lot "not discussed" between Giles & Buffy. I'm very dissatisfied in how issues in their relationship were NOT resolved either in season 7 or in season 8. A hug might make everything OK for some relationships, but not this one, IMO of course.



I already said that I loved your whole post, but I didn't quite understand this last sentence. Why exactly did Giles prefer Angel?

I didn't explain that very well, what I meant was that a lot of people simply think that Giles hated Spike. My point is that in the cases of Spike and Angel, he was mostly thinking about Buffy's welfare and the fate of the world. He also says that Angel at least had the self-awareness to leave Buffy when he posed a threat, but Spike didn't have the self-awareness.

 

[VisionGirl]

I didn't explain that very well, what I meant was that a lot of people simply think that Giles hated Spike. My point is that in the cases of Spike and Angel, he was mostly thinking about Buffy's welfare and the fate of the world. He also says that Angel at least had the self-awareness to leave Buffy when he posed a threat, but Spike didn't have the self-awareness.

Ah, makes sense, thanks!

 

[Flannen]

I'm also on the 'he had no reason to apologise' bandwagon. I mean, if Giles had have been right and Spike had ended up harming someone or killing someone, say Dawn, Giles would never dream of asking for, nor expecting, an apology from Buffy because he'd been right. Giles thought that what he was doing was right, just as much as Buffy did.

And it's often said how some fans should forgive Spike for some of the things he did because Buffy forgave him, well I guess that applies here too. As far as I was concerned Buffy wouldn't have said anything like you suggested WA because she had moved on from it and it wasn't an issue any more.

 

[white avenger]

I didn't explain that very well, what I meant was that a lot of people simply think that Giles hated Spike. My point is that in the cases of Spike and Angel, he was mostly thinking about Buffy's welfare and the fate of the world. He also says that Angel at least had the self-awareness to leave Buffy when he posed a threat, but Spike didn't have the self-awareness.

I have never believed that Giles ever fully forgave Angel for the death of Jenny Calendar, and I don't believe that he ever saw Angel again as more than Angelus with a muzzle, pretty much the same way that he saw Spike as long as he had the chip. I also seriously doubt that he ever fully trusted either vampire, but that's just my opinion, based on the Watcher/vampire dynamic in general, and I really don't expect anyone to share that opinion with me

As for Angel having the self awareness to leave Sunnydale and Buffy once he realized what a threat he had become, he seemed to have lapses in that self awareness at least once a season, though the writers always seemed to come up with a logical reason for those lapses. But, logical or not, if Angel was a threat in 21 episodes a season, he was just as much a threat for episode #22. Again, my opinion, and I don't expect anyone else to share it (I have tons of Buffy conspiracy theories, all my own, and I do love to take them out and play with them occasionally)

As far as Spike's self awareness being faulty, he announced his intentions, or at least volunteered to leave at the end of "First Date." "You've got another demon fighter now..." Exchanging a human fighter, ANY human fighter (except maybe Chuck Norris) for either Spike or Angel is a definite down trade, but he did make the sincere offer, and I firmly believe that he would have insisted on it if there weren't still a definite danger from the First Evil and its minions, exactly the way that Angel left in Season 3, once the Assention and Mayor Wilkins had been handled. But Buffy said the one thing that Spike could never have walked away from.

"You can't leave, because I'm not ready for you to not be here." It wasn't "I love you," "I need you," or "I can't do this without your support," but it was as close as Buffy had ever come to telling Spike any one of those things, and it was something that he simply could not walk away from, not because of lack of resolve, but, and once again, this is just my personal opinion, no one else has to agree, because OF resolve. He had once promised Buffy that he would take care of Dawn "till the end of the world," and I have no doubt whatsoever that he extended that vow to include Buffy herself once she returned. It was a promise that he could never break.

And, yes, my original statement about the exact wording of Buffy's answer to Giles' "What caused all of this," was a bit exaggerated for effect, but I do believe that at some point Buffy and Giles did have words about his treatment of Spike, and I also believe that that was at least partially, if not wholly the cause of the rift between them that was referred to by Giles in the "No Future For You" arc in Season 8.

 

[Kana]

I have never believed that Giles ever fully forgave Angel for the death of Jenny Calendar, and I don't believe that he ever saw Angel again as more than Angelus with a muzzle, pretty much the same way that he saw Spike as long as he had the chip. I also seriously doubt that he ever fully trusted either vampire, but that's just my opinion, based on the Watcher/vampire dynamic in general, and I really don't expect anyone to share that opinion with me

That well may well be true. That's why I put "preferred" in inverted commas, however, I think in both cases he was more about the safety of Buffy and world than he was about his personal hatred of either vampire.

As for Angel having the self awareness to leave Sunnydale and Buffy once he realized what a threat he had become, he seemed to have lapses in that self awareness at least once a season, though the writers always seemed to come up with a logical reason for those lapses. But, logical or not, if Angel was a threat in 21 episodes a season, he was just as much a threat for episode #22. Again, my opinion, and I don't expect anyone else to share it (I have tons of Buffy conspiracy theories, all my own, and I do love to take them out and play with them occasionally)

Well Giles was not talking about Angel visiting Buffy at all (although I can't imagine him being thrilled about that) but about leaving Buffy for her own good. When he saw her once a season, he was seldom if ever intimate with her in his cursed vampiric state. Giles was probably happy as long as they were not in an actual relationship together and were constantly around each other. If this is a sign as of Angel's apparent self awareness then I'd say it never really lapsed.

As far as Spike's self awareness being faulty, he announced his intentions, or at least volunteered to leave at the end of "First Date." "You've got another demon fighter now..." Exchanging a human fighter, ANY human fighter (except maybe Chuck Norris) for either Spike or Angel is a definite down trade, but he did make the sincere offer, and I firmly believe that he would have insisted on it if there weren't still a definite danger from the First Evil and its minions, exactly the way that Angel left in Season 3, once the Assention and Mayor Wilkins had been handled. But Buffy said the one thing that Spike could never have walked away from.

"You can't leave, because I'm not ready for you to not be here." It wasn't "I love you," "I need you," or "I can't do this without your support," but it was as close as Buffy had ever come to telling Spike any one of those things, and it was something that he simply could not walk away from, not because of lack of resolve, but, and once again, this is just my personal opinion, no one else has to agree, because OF resolve.

And this was what Giles was worried about. As long as Buffy had amorous feelings for Spike and vice versa, he would never leave her side, whether it was good for her or not unless Buffy decided otherwise.

He had once promised Buffy that he would take care of Dawn "till the end of the world," and I have no doubt whatsoever that he extended that vow to include Buffy herself once she returned. It was a promise that he could never break.

Loyalty is one of Spike's strengths as Buffy learned. Giles didn't see it that way and this is the unfortunate traits of the utilitarian. As the for the Angel/Spike dichotomy, my personal view is that the same love that led to Angel sacrificing every bit of happiness he's ever known for someone else's wellbeing is the same love that led to stay with Buffy out loyalty. Neither one is better or worse but from Giles' perspective, he saw Spike's loyalty as lack of foresight. He also saw Buffy's emotional connection with him as a weakness when it ended up being her strength. As others have said, both of them were both wrong and rightand it would seem that the First studied our heroes well enough to cause the divide. What they didn't count on was Spike not being a puppet and being a champion worthy of taking them on or maybe they did and that's why they chose him.

And, yes, my original statement about the exact wording of Buffy's answer to Giles' "What caused all of this," was a bit exaggerated for effect, but I do believe that at some point Buffy and Giles did have words about his treatment of Spike, and I also believe that that was at least partially, if not wholly the cause of the rift between them that was referred to by Giles in the "No Future For You" arc in Season 8

The dynamic had changed between them and Giles was a little slow on the uptake. If their views on doing good have become so different then I can't see the relationship being reparable, but what works in their favour is that neither is a hateful person by nature. They both clearly love each otherwise each of their actions wouldn't have hurt the other. Even if you don't think that's enough, I think it's a start. (and by 'you' I mean 'one'.) If it has been resolved then apologies because I'm not that far ahead with the comics.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think it was perfect. Just his name. The way Buffy said it hold all the emotion it needed to. And Giles wouldn't have apologized, nor should he have. None of them apologized for kicking Buffy out, but she saved them all.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Some people spaculate on the fact that because "I love you" and "Spike" were the last lines Buffy ever said on the show (not including the comics), it means something, and it's intentional. Fill in the blanks of what I'm trying to say.

 

[Marisa]

I would hope she said something. I was always disappointed in Giles for that and I hoped he would have in the end admitted he was wrong and been thankful to Spike.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I didn't forgive Giles yet, for doing that to Spike AND Buffy. And I'm not sure if Buffy did either. The thing that throws me, is not that Giles did this to Spike, it bothers me that he did it to Buffy. He knows how she feels about him and how important he is to her. I guess he felt like he was doing her a favor. Because Angel realized the situation and left, for Buffy's sake. But Spike didn't, and maybe Gilies did that job for her, thinking it's what she needed. I think it didn't came only from his will to protect humanity from Spike, it also came from concern for Buffy.

 

[zobothehobo]

I just read some people legit don't think Giles had anything to apologize for... how about playing God? Spike had a soul. Who was he to judge what souled creature lived or died? Being the slayer didn't give Buffy a license to kill. Being her watcher didn't give Giles one ether. Also, not only did he not trust Spike... he didn't trust Buffy. She trusted him and he lied to her. It almost felt like, to me, that Giles only trusted Buffy when she was "falling in line" and taking his cues and advice. But when she wised up and let her slayer intuition tell her what to do, he didn't trust her. He trusted her as HIS slayer, but not THE slayer. I felt like he kind of felt guilty for leaving her in season 6... or maybe partially in the back of his mind blamed her for the events of season 6. Maybe not consciously... but I think part of him blamed her for dark Willow. Also, Giles is like me... a natural leader. It's very hard for him to follow. But any natural leader will tell you, sometimes you HAVE to follow. And it sucks and you have to control yourself with all your might, but sometimes you HAVE to follow. I don't think Giles got that.

Not to mention aside from the Spike thing, he did turn against her and kick her out of her house. I think the only two people who didn't have to apologize to Buffy at the end of season 7 were herself and Spike.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I agree that Giles didnt have anything to apologize for. But S2-4 Spike woudlve been happy that he was able to cause such a huge rift between Buffy and the gang.

And Buffy wouldve worn the amulet if had to. She wouldve knocked Angel out, taken the amulet, go all sunshine on us and do what she does best. Or Faith wouldve made her final bow as a Slayer and be fully redeemed for her past, sacraficing herself to save the world. Plus they almsot died by the collapsing Sunnydale so Spikes efforts didnt put them in 100% safety (not trying to take away from what he did though)

 

[white avenger]

Some people spaculate on the fact that because "I love you" and "Spike" were the last lines Buffy ever said on the show (not including the comics), it means something, and it's intentional. Fill in the blanks of what I'm trying to say.

...and also the fire that burst from their two joined hands well BEFORE Spike ever began to even smolder from the effects of the amulet
. I've heard some really GREAT theories about that, and I really hope that now that Buffy and Spike are back together, as in associating together, or working together, not "When did the house fall down?" together, that little scene will finally be addressed.