"What Caused This?" "Spike."

Some people spaculate on the fact that because "I love you" and "Spike" were the last lines Buffy ever said on the show (not including the comics), it means something, and it's intentional. Fill in the blanks of what I'm trying to say.

😱😱😱 That fact about her last lines had never been brought to my attention before but I LOVE the implication, its bloody genius & its my new Spuffy mantra! :biggrin:

...and also the fire that burst from their two joined hands well BEFORE Spike ever began to even smolder from the effects of the amulet
. I've heard some really GREAT theories about that, and I really hope that now that Buffy and Spike are back together, as in associating together, or working together, not "When did the house fall down?" together, that little scene will finally be addressed.

Oooh I wanna hear the theories! Also, gah! I keep inadvertently reading what i can assume are mini season 8 spoilers and its driving me bonkers! I have to hurry up and catch up on the comics at lightning speed if i'm gonna keep frequenting BB on a regular basis.
 
I just read some people legit don't think Giles had anything to apologize for... how about playing God? Spike had a soul. Who was he to judge what souled creature lived or died? Being the slayer didn't give Buffy a license to kill. Being her watcher didn't give Giles one ether. Also, not only did he not trust Spike... he didn't trust Buffy. She trusted him and he lied to her. It almost felt like, to me, that Giles only trusted Buffy when she was "falling in line" and taking his cues and advice. But when she wised up and let her slayer intuition tell her what to do, he didn't trust her. He trusted her as HIS slayer, but not THE slayer. I felt like he kind of felt guilty for leaving her in season 6... or maybe partially in the back of his mind blamed her for the events of season 6. Maybe not consciously... but I think part of him blamed her for dark Willow. Also, Giles is like me... a natural leader. It's very hard for him to follow. But any natural leader will tell you, sometimes you HAVE to follow. And it sucks and you have to control yourself with all your might, but sometimes you HAVE to follow. I don't think Giles got that.

Not to mention aside from the Spike thing, he did turn against her and kick her out of her house. I think the only two people who didn't have to apologize to Buffy at the end of season 7 were herself and Spike.

Great points. And that goes along with what Spike said to Giles in "Touched," how Spike said Buffy surpassed Giles and he couldn't take it. At first, I thought Giles really had no need to apologize. After Buffy said, "Spike," I felt like whatever trust issues they had got resolved. No words were needed because they had a general understanding together. Buffy was right along that Spike would be a great warrior to them in their fight. Yet, what Giles did not just to Spike, but to Buffy (how he treated her and didn't trust her) I think does require an apology or some words to be exchanged. Even if it wasn't right after Buffy said, "Spike," I would hope he would have apologized later on.
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
Oooh I wanna hear the theories!

Your wish is my command...

1) Translated loosely from an old Turkish holy script: "And there shall come a time when the world shall stand upon the brink of destruction, when the very embodiment of Evil shall gather its minions from throughout the land and they shall be eyeless to the light of day and hairless upon their heads. And lo, but a mighty defender shall stand against them, and she shall gather unto herself the greatest warrior that the world has ever known, a warrior with the soul of a poet and the heart of a lion. And he shall gird himself in his dark leather mantle and take his place at the side of the defender, and she shall name him her Champion, and the greatest Evil shall tremble in terror, for no force can stand against the true blazing light of these two heroes. And the Champion shall willingly give up his life in the service of the defender, but not before they shall share the Grasp of Flame, signifying the intermingling of two indomitable spirits...(and here it gets a bit obscure, but there is something about the defender and her Champion being reunited, never to be parted, one from the other, again)...and the fat lady shall do the dance of joy forever more." (I read that somewhere several years ago, and it fitted so well into the Buffy/Spike mythos that it just couldn't have been a coincidence)

2) (Taken from an old Native American legend): "And the Great Spirit shall compel the Scoundrel with the Forehead to deliver into the hands of the warrior woman the Amulet of Light, and she shall send him back unto whence he came with his tail between his legs, and shall entrust her True Champion to bear the Amulet into battle. And the heat of their passion and love shall be so great that their last embrace shall burst into white hot cleansing flame, binding their very souls together until the buffalo come home to graze and the fat squaw shall sing the chant of Victory forever more."

3) (And this is my personal favorite):Spike's love for his Slayer was so pure, so deep, and so powerful that he was able to literally give Buffy back the fire that she had sung about losing in Season 6.
 
Z
zobothehobo
I LOVE THESE!!!!!
S
StarSlayer
AHH!!! Thanks so much for posting these!!!! :D :D
Your wish is my command...

1) Translated loosely from an old Turkish holy script: "And there shall come a time when the world shall stand upon the brink of destruction, when the very embodiment of Evil shall gather its minions from throughout the land and they shall be eyeless to the light of day and hairless upon their heads. And lo, but a mighty defender shall stand against them, and she shall gather unto herself the greatest warrior that the world has ever known, a warrior with the soul of a poet and the heart of a lion. And he shall gird himself in his dark leather mantle and take his place at the side of the defender, and she shall name him her Champion, and the greatest Evil shall tremble in terror, for no force can stand against the true blazing light of these two heroes. And the Champion shall willingly give up his life in the service of the defender, but not before they shall share the Grasp of Flame, signifying the intermingling of two indomitable spirits...(and here it gets a bit obscure, but there is something about the defender and her Champion being reunited, never to be parted, one from the other, again)...and the fat lady shall do the dance of joy forever more." (I read that somewhere several years ago, and it fitted so well into the Buffy/Spike mythos that it just couldn't have been a coincidence)

2) (Taken from an old Native American legend): "And the Great Spirit shall compel the Scoundrel with the Forehead to deliver into the hands of the warrior woman the Amulet of Light, and she shall send him back unto whence he came with his tail between his legs, and shall entrust her True Champion to bear the Amulet into battle. And the heat of their passion and love shall be so great that their last embrace shall burst into white hot cleansing flame, binding their very souls together until the buffalo come home to graze and the fat squaw shall sing the chant of Victory forever more."

3) (And this is my personal favorite):Spike's love for his Slayer was so pure, so deep, and so powerful that he was able to literally give Buffy back the fire that she had sung about losing in Season 6.

Holy crap! Both 1 & 2 fit SO insanely perfectly with the events surrounding Spuffy its hard to believe Joss wasn't familiar with the legend & the script when forming the story. It would be the greatest coincidence in life! I love these! And the third one gave me chills, its a beautiful theory! Man, I seriously don't get how Bangel's exist 😛 (Kean i love you, don't hurt me!)

Thanks for sharing these!
 
white avenger
white avenger
Don't worry, Miss K's bark is FAR worse than her bite.
I just read some people legit don't think Giles had anything to apologize for... how about playing God? Spike had a soul. Who was he to judge what souled creature lived or died? Being the slayer didn't give Buffy a license to kill. Being her watcher didn't give Giles one ether. Also, not only did he not trust Spike... he didn't trust Buffy. She trusted him and he lied to her. It almost felt like, to me, that Giles only trusted Buffy when she was "falling in line" and taking his cues and advice. But when she wised up and let her slayer intuition tell her what to do, he didn't trust her. He trusted her as HIS slayer, but not THE slayer. I felt like he kind of felt guilty for leaving her in season 6... or maybe partially in the back of his mind blamed her for the events of season 6. Maybe not consciously... but I think part of him blamed her for dark Willow. Also, Giles is like me... a natural leader. It's very hard for him to follow. But any natural leader will tell you, sometimes you HAVE to follow. And it sucks and you have to control yourself with all your might, but sometimes you HAVE to follow. I don't think Giles got that.

Not to mention aside from the Spike thing, he did turn against her and kick her out of her house. I think the only two people who didn't have to apologize to Buffy at the end of season 7 were herself and Spike.

I definitely don't think Giles had to apologize for anything.

You say your a natural leader, would you honestly say if you were in that house, and your leader has a vampire that can be triggered at any moment to kill, by the thing that is trying to kill everyone in that house, and you would sit around eating breakfast with him.

Ignoring that you like the character, put yourself in that house, I honestly don't understand how more of the other characters didn't try to kill Spike, or kick the 2 of them out sooner.

Buffy was acting emotionally, and she was making stupid, stupid decisions that were putting the whole group (actually the whole world) in danger.

Buffy should have spent the whole of the second half of the season apologizing to everyone for the amount of crap she was throwing at them, when they don't have super powers like her.

I know people say she was right about the scythe so they shouldn't have been kicked out, but it doesn't matter that she was right, she wasn't going about it right.
 
white avenger
white avenger
This has nothing to do with whether I do or don't like Spike. Buffy was the one in charge. She gave the orders, and the others could obey or leave. See my explanation of "Command Decision"
I definitely don't think Giles had to apologize for anything.

You say your a natural leader, would you honestly say if you were in that house, and your leader has a vampire that can be triggered at any moment to kill, by the thing that is trying to kill everyone in that house, and you would sit around eating breakfast with him.

Ignoring that you like the character, put yourself in that house, I honestly don't understand how more of the other characters didn't try to kill Spike, or kick the 2 of them out sooner.

Buffy was acting emotionally, and she was making stupid, stupid decisions that were putting the whole group (actually the whole world) in danger.

Buffy should have spent the whole of the second half of the season apologizing to everyone for the amount of crap she was throwing at them, when they don't have super powers like her.


Oh and I don't care if they didn't have superpowers like her. They were the chosen few... they HAD to be willing to give up their lives to protect the world... Buffy shouldn't have had to apologize to them for expecting them to do just that.
I know people say she was right about the scythe so they shouldn't have been kicked out, but it doesn't matter that she was right, she wasn't going about it right.

She needed Spike to fight. He should have cooperated more with the whole de-triggering thing... and if I was in Buffy's place, I would have made him cooperate more rather than letting him be like "I'm fine, now let me go." But she needed him to fight. Aside from her, he was the best fighter they had. She knew it, he knew it, and everyone else in the house knew it.
 
She needed Spike to fight. He should have cooperated more with the whole de-triggering thing... and if I was in Buffy's place, I would have made him cooperate more rather than letting him be like "I'm fine, now let me go." But she needed him to fight. Aside from her, he was the best fighter they had. She knew it, he knew it, and everyone else in the house knew it.

But thats exactly my point, you say it yourself, Buffy wasn't doing enough, she was making stupid decisions, so it was up to Giles or someone else to step in.

And lets be honest here, Spike was useful in a fight, but he was far from a great fighter, he had just spent the last year running from fights, Spike specifically wasn't of use in the finale battle, had he not been there he could have been replaced by Angel, someone like Willow was a much bigger asset, as no one could have replaced her role.

Buffy was giving him credit as a better fighter and giving him a large leeway based on a emotions rather then thinking logically, what she was doing was reckless, this is the only reason I think Giles had no need to apologize.
 
Personally, I would have HAD to say something like, "Spike. You know, the guy who you never trusted. The guy who wouldn't have been here to save the day if your and Wood's little plan had succeeded. The guy who you can thank the rest of your life for every single breath that you draw after today. Spike."

And if I were Giles I would reply (assuming Buffy has already told him all about the amulet): "You do know that our group is practically teeming with people who could have worn that piece of jewelry? Stronger than human and with a soul, was it? Let's see - you, Faith, Angel, all the new Slayers, possibly Willow too. So please wrap your pretty little head around the idea that whoever provided that amulet saved us, Spike was merely a pawn in their plan. Also, I think you have tried to kill Spike many more times than I have, so if you are going to blame me for not being able to read the future you should do the same for yourself. Not to mention back then you weren't trusting Spike, you were trusting The First not to trigger Spike, so I still think you screwed up royally. Thankfully The First turned out to be a bloody moron."

She needed Spike to fight. He should have cooperated more with the whole de-triggering thing... and if I was in Buffy's place, I would have made him cooperate more rather than letting him be like "I'm fine, now let me go." But she needed him to fight. Aside from her, he was the best fighter they had.

A fighter who at any moment can be forced to switch sides is a liability, not an assett and should have been treated like that.
 
A fighter who at any moment can be forced to switch sides is a liability, not an assett and should have been treated like that.

Spike was not switching sides at this point. He was committed to Buffy and her fight against the First. The First tried to get Spike to come back to being evil, but he said no because Buffy believed in him. She believed he changed and could be a better man, which was another reason why she allowed the chip to be removed too.
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
I definitely don't think Giles had to apologize for anything.

I disagree.
I think he was right when he wanted Spike in chains and Buffy was truly stupid to led him free. The conspiracy to kill him was a bit over the top but Giles thought it was the best way to deal with this lethal threat and that's a good reason.

But thats not why he had to apologize. He distracted her while Wood ambushed Spike. They could've done it without stalling her, but they send the one man she probably trusted the most, her father figure, to keep her busy by pretending to have a training lesson like the ones both had together in the good old days. This way he hurt her way more as he could've done with simply killing Spike.
He perverted their connection by abusing it to act against her will. That's what he has to apologize for big time.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Sadly, I never even thought about that until you pointed it out. And you're 100% right about that.
And lets be honest here, Spike was useful in a fight, but he was far from a great fighter, he had just spent the last year running from fights, Spike specifically wasn't of use in the finale battle, had he not been there he could have been replaced by Angel, someone like Willow was a much bigger asset, as no one could have replaced her role.

Buffy was giving him credit as a better fighter and giving him a large leeway based on a emotions rather then thinking logically, what she was doing was reckless, this is the only reason I think Giles had no need to apologize.

Spike was at least a great enough fighter to kick the crap out of Angel only a few months later ("He beat me, Wes. He wanted it more") If there ever was anything that Spike wanted in the world, it was NOT to fail Buffy. He proved that in Season 5, when it would have been a whole lot easier, and way less painful, to have simply betrayed Buffy and her family. But he didn't. He could have just walked out of Buffy's house the next year with the excuse that "I'm just a soulless monster. Raping people is one of the things that I do." Or, he could have just permanently left town and only returned occasionally, because he was so attracted to her that he couldn't trust himself not to try it again, like Angel did. But he didn't do either of those things. Once more, he endured pain and torture to do the unspeakable, something that, as far as we know, was never done before. He regained his soul, in order to try and be the better man, the kind of man that Buffy could believe in, could trust, and maybe even love. Spike regained his soul, at a cost so great that it almost destroyed his mind. The killing, the taking of innocent lives, and whatever other despicable things that he had done, drove him into a basement, living in filth and feeding off of rats, just like Angel was when Whistler found him to tell him that Buffy needed him. Unlike Angel, Spike came out of his dark place with no prompting, as far as we know, from any outside source, for exactly the same reason. Buffy needed him. And she believed in him, trusted him, defended him, and she loved him. She wasn't giving him "credit" for being a great fighter, she KNEW that he was a great fighter. She knew from personal experience, something that no one else there had.

The decision to trust Spike based solely on her gut feelings and personal decision, in spite of what her friends told her is called making a command decision, something that commanders always do. She knew Spike far better than Giles ever could, and I'm not referring to the Biblical sense here. Her judgment in the matter was affected by her emotions and gut instincts, by her faith and trust. But that in no way implies that those feelings in any way clouded that judgment, and as we ultimately saw, those gut instincts proved to be more accurate than Giles' distrust or Wood's hatred.

The Amulet was intended to be worn by someone "with a soul, but more than human. As powerful a witch as Willow might be, she was still, at that time, purely and entirely human, nothing more.Of the others, Angel was sent away, for either the reasons that Buffy gave or something else.The point being, she didn't want him there for her final battle. That was another one of those command decisions, as was her right, as commander, to make.

And let's not forget that, while the Amulet had to be worn in the battle buy someone with a soul, but more than human, it also needed to be worn by an experienced fighter, something that none of the other girls, either before or after becoming activated, was, not by a long shot. Since she had already eliminated Faith from consideration, that left only Spike.

And as for running away from fights, we only saw him run away once, for what were, at that time, valid reasons. But, when the need arose, when Buffy was in danger, she got exactly what and who she needed to wear the Amulet. She got the Old Spike back. That was the Spike that Giles and Wood plotted to kill, despite Buffy's orders, both implied and specific. He was a good man, she trusted him, she believed in him. No room for discussion or doubt.

If Giles and Wood had succeeded, Spike would not have been there for the final battle. Without Spike and his sacrifice, the battle would have been lost. If the battle had been lost, the world would have been toast. No second front in the world, raised in a matter of a few days, could have changed that. Maybe that was knowledge gained after the fact, but it was knowledge gained, and based on that knowledge, yes, Giles AND Wood owed Buffy an apology. Hopefully, at some point between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8, those apologies were delivered, and in a most sincere and humble fashion.
 
Kana
Kana
This post looks well jicy, I can't wait to disect it.
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
And let's not forget that, while the Amulet had to be worn in the battle buy someone with a soul, but more than human, it also needed to be worn by an experienced fighter

This isn't a RPG, I doubt the amulet made a check on the characters experience points before working. Angel didn't say anything about experience, he said it needed a champion and even a new Slayer is more of a champion than Spike, IMO.

If Giles and Wood had succeeded, Spike would not have been there for the final battle. Without Spike and his sacrifice, the battle would have been lost.

Not really, someone else woudl have worn the amulet. Or the US army would have slaughtered the ubies, considering Anya could kill two with a sword.

Spike was not switching sides at this point. He was committed to Buffy and her fight against the First. The First tried to get Spike to come back to being evil, but he said no because Buffy believed in him. She believed he changed and could be a better man, which was another reason why she allowed the chip to be removed too.

The whole point of the trigger is that Spike had no choice. By not keeping Spike in chains, Buffy isn't trusting Spike to not go berserk, she is trusting the First not to make him go berserk. It's quite irrelevant how much Spike is or isn't loyal to Buffy. Now, that said, I don't think the storyline made a lick of sense - why did the First needed Spike in the first palce was never made clear and neither was it explained why it didn't use a trigger in the cases of Willow or Angel but once the trigger was established as a fact, it was almost funny to see everyone forgetting about it for a few episodes before it came up again.
 
This isn't a RPG, I doubt the amulet made a check on the characters experience points before working. Angel didn't say anything about experience, he said it needed a champion and even a new Slayer is more of a champion than Spike, IMO.



Not really, someone else woudl have worn the amulet. Or the US army would have slaughtered the ubies, considering Anya could kill two with a sword.



The whole point of the trigger is that Spike had no choice. By not keeping Spike in chains, Buffy isn't trusting Spike to not go berserk, she is trusting the First not to make him go berserk. It's quite irrelevant how much Spike is or isn't loyal to Buffy. Now, that said, I don't think the storyline made a lick of sense - why did the First needed Spike in the first palce was never made clear and neither was it explained why it didn't use a trigger in the cases of Willow or Angel but once the trigger was established as a fact, it was almost funny to see everyone forgetting about it for a few episodes before it came up again.

(Sorry, I don't know how to separate parts of a quote to answer the points individually, so just bear with me here)

As for the battle not being a RPG, you're right. But, since Angel said or implied that the Amulet was "very powerful, very volatile, and meant to be worn by a Champion," that tells me that, next to the Scythe, Buffy considered, or at least hoped, that the Amulet could be her most powerful weapon in the upcoming fight, and in order to have it at her disposal at the proper time, she needed it to be carried by the person who she considered to be the one still with her when it was needed. Having it hanging around the neck of a dead Potential-Turned-Slayer would be next to useless. Spike had the greatest amount of experience, therefore the greatest chance of being where she needed him when the time came.

And Spike was Buffy's choice to be her Champion, so she would probably disagree with you as to who was or wasn't more of a champion that anyone else.

Yes, Anya, and several other non-Slayers killed Ubervamps with swords. Also axes, crossbows, and wooden stakes. Unfortunately, neither the Army, Marines, nor National Guard arm their personnel with swords. They use assault rifles, and by the time that they realized that .223 hardball won't stop an ubervamp, it would have been too late to rearm the troops with swords, even if they were readily available.

As for keeping Spike in chains, the reason that the First got him and was able to open the seal in the first place was that he was chained up and unable to fight back. Apparently Buffy believed that it was safer to have Spike free and able to defend himself than to have him easy prey for her enemies. And as for the trigger itself, it couldn't be activated remotely. Spike had to actually hear the music in order for it to work. Also, Spike was never alone with the Potentials after they learned about the trigger. Buffy was always with him, and she felt more than confident that she could restrain him if it became necessary.

And as for Spike's role in the First Evil's plan not making any sense, I have to agree. We do know that when the First tried to convince Angel to kill himself, Angel was a vampire with a soul who shared a very close personal relationship with Buffy and was in residence on the hellmouth, and all of those things could also be said of Spike in Season 7, but not Angel., neither would Willow. Why did the First try to kill Angel, but installed a trigger in Spike's subconscious? It was never explained, but I would assume that its plans simply changed, so it used a different strategy, or had a totally different plan the second time.
 
S
StarSlayer
[No message]
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
Yes, Anya, and several other non-Slayers killed Ubervamps with swords. Also axes, crossbows, and wooden stakes. Unfortunately, neither the Army, Marines, nor National Guard arm their personnel with swords. They use assault rifles, and by the time that they realized that .223 hardball won't stop an ubervamp, it would have been too late to rearm the troops with swords, even if they were readily available.

I am sure the army has flamethrowers. And tanks. And artillery. The Turok-Han army doesn't stand a chance. Vampires have always relied on stealth and against modern weapons even an army of ubies as strong as the one who kicked Buffy's ass in the middle of S7 would have no chance whatsoever. Sure, the show has always demanded a suspension of disbelief to work but personally I can accept a purely magical threat like Acathla swallowing the world much more easily than an army of very much killable creatures overrunning the world. YMMV and so on.

Also, Spike was never alone with the Potentials after they learned about the trigger. Buffy was always with him, and she felt more than confident that she could restrain him if it became necessary.

Buffy has a job. Buffy also sleeps. There is no way she was always around Spike. Had the First two braincells to rub together it could have forced Spiek to kill everyone in the house while they were sleeping. the fact that Buffy never considers this tells me that S7 Buffy doesn't have the mentioned two braincells either.

As for the battle not being a RPG, you're right. But, since Angel said or implied that the Amulet was "very powerful, very volatile, and meant to be worn by a Champion," that tells me that, next to the Scythe, Buffy considered, or at least hoped, that the Amulet could be her most powerful weapon in the upcoming fight, and in order to have it at her disposal at the proper time, she needed it to be carried by the person who she considered to be the one still with her when it was needed. Having it hanging around the neck of a dead Potential-Turned-Slayer would be next to useless. Spike had the greatest amount of experience, therefore the greatest chance of being where she needed him when the time came.

And Spike was Buffy's choice to be her Champion, so she would probably disagree with you as to who was or wasn't more of a champion that anyone else.

I am not saying that Spike was the worst choice to wear the amulet. In fact, Spike burning to death is pretty much the only thing I like about Chosen. I am saying that if Spike had already been dead, someone else would have worn the amulet and it probably would have worked, so Spike was anything but indispensable for the victory. Wolfram and Hart was indispensable as they provided the amulet.

Plus, the whole reasoning simply doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "Buffy should have killed Ben the first time she met him". The characters can't be held responsible for not seeing well into the future.
 
Kana
Kana
Agreement about Giles not being able to foresee the deus ex machina amulet
The whole point of the trigger is that Spike had no choice. By not keeping Spike in chains, Buffy isn't trusting Spike to not go berserk, she is trusting the First not to make him go berserk. It's quite irrelevant how much Spike is or isn't loyal to Buffy.

You're right in that the trigger the First planted in Spike's brain gave him no choice. He was under the First's control until "Lies My Parents Told Me." However, even before that, Buffy did trust Spike in that she believed he could fight the First's control (to an extent at least). She saw it firsthand in "Sleeper" when they were in the basement. He remembered what he did when he was under the First's control and stopped himself from hurting Buffy. Spike even wanted Buffy to kill him twice (once in "Sleeper," the other time in "Never Leave Me") because he knew what kind of damage he could do if the First controlled him. The people in the basement "got off easy" as he mentioned. Yet, Buffy believed in him. As she said, she felt the change in him and knew he could become a better man. Besides, it was Spike who told Buffy to make the ropes tighter and who wanted to stay in the chains, until the First stopped making him his bitch, as he said. And, his loyalty to Buffy is not irrelevant at all, especially in s7. He's always been a loyal character toward the people he loved and would die for them. Buffy knew that from "Intervention."

Now, that said, I don't think the storyline made a lick of sense - why did the First needed Spike in the first palce was never made clear and neither was it explained why it didn't use a trigger in the cases of Willow or Angel but once the trigger was established as a fact, it was almost funny to see everyone forgetting about it for a few episodes before it came up again.

I always saw it as like the First putting a secret weapon, or unexpected bomb, into Buffy's group. When the bomb goes off (Spike's trigger gets activated), hell is going to break lose, and no one would have seen it coming. As the First said through Andrew, he had "big plans" for Spike. Spike was in a vulnerable state of mind when he got his soul back, and the First jumped at the chance there. Much like when the First preyed on Angel when he came from hell. Angel was in a vulnerable position there too. Yet, Angel conquered the feelings he had in s3. He was much stronger since then, so I think the First didn't see him as a viable candidate anymore. Then, here comes along Spike, another vampire with a soul that the First saw as worthy, sort of speak. Willow was becoming stronger by the day too in England, so I think that's why she was out of the picture.

Yet, the unexpected twist the First didn't really count on was Buffy and her feelings for Spike. Once he found out that was really Spike's weak spot, the First played on that. He tried to convince Spike that Buffy wouldn't come for him, that Buffy didn't believe in him, and even that Buffy didn't need him after he saw Buffy and Angel kissing. He knew Spike was a strong warrior, and wanted him to play for the side of evil. Yet, that wasn't Spike anymore.
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
The decision to trust Spike based solely on her gut feelings and personal decision, in spite of what her friends told her is called making a command decision, something that commanders always do. She knew Spike far better than Giles ever could, and I'm not referring to the Biblical sense here. Her judgment in the matter was affected by her emotions and gut instincts, by her faith and trust. But that in no way implies that those feelings in any way clouded that judgment, and as we ultimately saw, those gut instincts proved to be more accurate than Giles' distrust or Wood's hatred.

But this is exactly what shows awful judgement on Buffy's side, She was trusting someone she shouldn't have, Spike didn't have control of when the First took over him, so why should he be wandering around the house where the good guys live.

You would have a point if Spike didn't have a soul, and wasn't being triggered by the First. Then Buffy's gut decision would have been to trust an unsouled Vampire, and everyone else disagreed, and she would have been correct, as Spike had proven himself trustworthy even before he got his soul.

But the biggest issue here, is that it wasn't Spike she had to trust as he wasn't the one responsible for the triggers, so she made a stupid, stupid call.

The Amulet was intended to be worn by someone "with a soul, but more than human. As powerful a witch as Willow might be, she was still, at that time, purely and entirely human, nothing more.Of the others, Angel was sent away, for either the reasons that Buffy gave or something else.The point being, she didn't want him there for her final battle. That was another one of those command decisions, as was her right, as commander, to make.

And let's not forget that, while the Amulet had to be worn in the battle buy someone with a soul, but more than human, it also needed to be worn by an experienced fighter, something that none of the other girls, either before or after becoming activated, was, not by a long shot. Since she had already eliminated Faith from consideration, that left only Spike.

Your applying the exact same circumstances to the fight, had Wood killed Spike, and Angel turned up with that amulet, he could have worn it.

Spike wasn't predestined to wear the amulet, it looked to be open to a number of people. I don't think Giles or Willow could have worn it, they are still human, but can work magic, but the slayers are part demon, or have demon in them, so there's no reason a slayer couldn't have worn it. I was saying, Spike was handy to have in the fight, but he wasn't key, he could have been swapped out with another player.


And as for running away from fights, we only saw him run away once, for what were, at that time, valid reasons. But, when the need arose, when Buffy was in danger, she got exactly what and who she needed to wear the Amulet. She got the Old Spike back. That was the Spike that Giles and Wood plotted to kill, despite Buffy's orders, both implied and specific. He was a good man, she trusted him, she believed in him. No room for discussion or doubt.

I'm not going to respond, I'm just going to scoff that you thought Spikes reasons were a good ones - like come on, if that isn't seeing something with crazy bias, I don't know what is.

If Giles and Wood had succeeded, Spike would not have been there for the final battle. Without Spike and his sacrifice, the battle would have been lost. If the battle had been lost, the world would have been toast. No second front in the world, raised in a matter of a few days, could have changed that. Maybe that was knowledge gained after the fact, but it was knowledge gained, and based on that knowledge, yes, Giles AND Wood owed Buffy an apology. Hopefully, at some point between the end of Season 7 and the beginning of Season 8, those apologies were delivered, and in a most sincere and humble fashion.
If your handing out apologies for 'What if' scenarios, then Buffy owes one to everyone as Spike could have been triggered at any moment and killed all the potentials. Again, Spike handy in the fight, but not key to winning it, someone else could have taken his place, he wasn't like Willow, where no one else could have done her role.
 
I am sure the army has flamethrowers. And tanks. And artillery. The Turok-Han army doesn't stand a chance.

The military does indeed have tanks, flame throwers, and heavy artillery. They also have fighter planes, bombers, and guided missiles. Unfortunately, those devices aren't used initially against what would almost certainly have been reported as a very large riot, any more than swords and axes. The military's primary's primary weapon of choice for quelling homeland insurrection is the assault weapon, primarily the M-16 rifle. Flame throwers and heavy weapons aren't politically in that situation, nor are they even particularly that effective in what would amount to urban or guerrilla warfare, because the attacking forces would have too many places to seek cover. We had all of those things in Viet Nam, but they were virtually useless against an enemy who had so many places to hide until the artillery fire was over, then come out of cover and resume their attack. By the time that the mistake was realized, they would have been overrun, with a loss of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. Given that big a start, the ubervamps, along with the army of Bringers that the First Evil had scattered about the world would have been at worst unstoppable, and at best disruptive to civilized society on a global scale. Read "World War Z" to get an idea of what I'm referring to.

As for those times when Buffy was at work, leaving Spike alone in the basement, if you notice, he is in chains until Faith arrives, after which she would have been able to at least keep Spike occupied until the others escaped.

All that we have here can be boiled down to just a few simple facts.

Buffy was the recognized leader in what could only be described accurately as a wartime situation. As commander, her word was law. Her orders, based on her knowledge and 7 years of experience, were to specifically leave Spike alone, because she felt that he was integral to her plans and irreplaceable in her fighting force.

That same experience and gut instinct told her that Spike was the one who she wanted to wear the amulet, and the one who she named as her Champion. Call that a calculated risk if you so choose, but the ultimate right or wrong of her decisions could only be proven or disproven after the fact, at which time she was, in fact, proven completely right in her trust of him.

Buffy was in command. She gave the orders. She was under no obligation to hear debates or make explanations to anyone under her command, and anyone who did NOT want to follow her orders should have gone elsewhere. I'm sure that there were plenty of vacant houses available for them.

Possibly, even probably, if Spike had chosen to remain there, under Faith's command, he would have either been kept permanently in chains and under guard, staked, or forcible evicted, the latter probably causing almost as much damage and loss of life as if the First had actually triggered him if Spike decided to stay or resist in any way. Since that never happened, it can only be guessed at.

In attempting to kill Spike against her orders, Giles and Wood knowingly defied the orders of their commander. In the end, her faith and trust in Spike were proven accurate, whereas the others' defiance and undermining of those orders might very well have lost them the war, since there would have been no Scythe to use in turning the Potentials, and no Amulet to be worn into the hellmouth, regardless of who was or wasn't available to wear it.

Buffy was, in the end, proven right. Up until that time, the others were free to sulk, grumble, and complain as much as they cared to. That's a time honored occupation of soldiers and sailors everywhere. But once the end result proved that Buffy's plans had been sound and accurate, the very least that Giles and Wood, in fact every single survivor, could have done was to admit that they had been wrong and that Buffy had been right.

er
 
S
Spiciu
World War Z karma, awesome book ;)
Z
zobothehobo
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! This.
The military does indeed have tanks, flame throwers, and heavy artillery. They also have fighter planes, bombers, and guided missiles. Unfortunately, those devices aren't used initially against what would almost certainly have been reported as a very large riot, any more than swords and axes.

What? We know that the government is well aware of the existence of demons, vampires and so on. If Buffy had half a clue she would have told Riley and his superiors to create a second front too, not just Angel. The exodus of the citizens of Sunnydale would have given a lot of credence to her warning. Now, maybe the government would have been too stupid to react well but I still really don't see creatures that Anya can kill with a sword overrunning even California, let alone the world.

Buffy was the recognized leader in what could only be described accurately as a wartime situation. As commander, her word was law.

If the commander is acting like a lunatic, I don't see anything wrong with the "troops" mutinying.

In attempting to kill Spike against her orders, Giles and Wood knowingly defied the orders of their commander. In the end, her faith and trust in Spike were proven accurate

Only because Wood unwittingly removed the trigger while trying to kill Spike. If Buffy had had her way, Spike could have slaughtered everyone in their beds.

Buffy was, in the end, proven right.

But it took two dei ex machina and a million contrivances. I can't really fault Giles for failing to see that coming...
 
The military does indeed have tanks, flame throwers, and heavy artillery. They also have fighter planes, bombers, and guided missiles. Unfortunately, those devices aren't used initially against what would almost certainly have been reported as a very large riot, any more than swords and axes. The military's primary's primary weapon of choice for quelling homeland insurrection is the assault weapon, primarily the M-16 rifle. Flame throwers and heavy weapons aren't politically in that situation, nor are they even particularly that effective in what would amount to urban or guerrilla warfare, because the attacking forces would have too many places to seek cover. We had all of those things in Viet Nam, but they were virtually useless against an enemy who had so many places to hide until the artillery fire was over, then come out of cover and resume their attack. By the time that the mistake was realized, they would have been overrun, with a loss of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. Given that big a start, the ubervamps, along with the army of Bringers that the First Evil had scattered about the world would have been at worst unstoppable, and at best disruptive to civilized society on a global scale. Read "World War Z" to get an idea of what I'm referring to.

As for those times when Buffy was at work, leaving Spike alone in the basement, if you notice, he is in chains until Faith arrives, after which she would have been able to at least keep Spike occupied until the others escaped.

All that we have here can be boiled down to just a few simple facts.

Buffy was the recognized leader in what could only be described accurately as a wartime situation. As commander, her word was law. Her orders, based on her knowledge and 7 years of experience, were to specifically leave Spike alone, because she felt that he was integral to her plans and irreplaceable in her fighting force.

That same experience and gut instinct told her that Spike was the one who she wanted to wear the amulet, and the one who she named as her Champion. Call that a calculated risk if you so choose, but the ultimate right or wrong of her decisions could only be proven or disproven after the fact, at which time she was, in fact, proven completely right in her trust of him.

Buffy was in command. She gave the orders. She was under no obligation to hear debates or make explanations to anyone under her command, and anyone who did NOT want to follow her orders should have gone elsewhere. I'm sure that there were plenty of vacant houses available for them.

Possibly, even probably, if Spike had chosen to remain there, under Faith's command, he would have either been kept permanently in chains and under guard, staked, or forcible evicted, the latter probably causing almost as much damage and loss of life as if the First had actually triggered him if Spike decided to stay or resist in any way. Since that never happened, it can only be guessed at.

In attempting to kill Spike against her orders, Giles and Wood knowingly defied the orders of their commander. In the end, her faith and trust in Spike were proven accurate, whereas the others' defiance and undermining of those orders might very well have lost them the war, since there would have been no Scythe to use in turning the Potentials, and no Amulet to be worn into the hellmouth, regardless of who was or wasn't available to wear it.

Buffy was, in the end, proven right. Up until that time, the others were free to sulk, grumble, and complain as much as they cared to. That's a time honored occupation of soldiers and sailors everywhere. But once the end result proved that Buffy's plans had been sound and accurate, the very least that Giles and Wood, in fact every single survivor, could have done was to admit that they had been wrong and that Buffy had been right.

er

I think your also missing the point of the last episode, Buffy was only right in her outcome not in her handling of the entire situation, she realized that once she got the scythe, it wasn't about the other doing as she says, she wasn't their leader in the sense of giving orders and bossing them around, she realized it was time for the 'chosen' to actually choose to be chosen, no more commands. Even Buffy saw what she was doing was wrong.
 
I think your also missing the point of the last episode, Buffy was only right in her outcome not in her handling of the entire situation, she realized that once she got the scythe, it wasn't about the other doing as she says, she wasn't their leader in the sense of giving orders and bossing them around, she realized it was time for the 'chosen' to actually choose to be chosen, no more commands. Even Buffy saw what she was doing was wrong.

And by her own statement, without Spike's support and belief in her, she never would have had the courage to go on with her mission alone and retrieve the Scythe. In other words, if Spike had been killed by Wood and Giles, there would have been no Scythe, no activated Potentials, and no way, no how,
that Buffy could have won her war. You're making my argument for me.

I will concede that Buffy did, afterwards, give the Potentials a choice in whether or not they wanted to be Slayers and fight by her side, but that could just as well be seen as a "my way, or the highway" statement. She was offering them the choice of whether or not they wanted to be in the fight, not whether or not they were going to feel free to question her orders or obey only the ones that they felt like following. By announcing that she was going to open up the seal and settle this, once and for all, she was NOT saying, "I'm going to open up the seal, then we'll take a vote as to what we do after that. Buffy's army was going into battle, no matter how many troops there were, and they were going into battle under her command.

Again I say, Giles and Wood owe Buffy an apology in the light of the end result of what happened, and how important Spike actually proved to be in the end. If they weren't men enough to apologize, the very least that they could have done was to admit that she had been right all along.
 
Z
zobothehobo
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