"What Caused This?" "Spike."

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Part of the final scene in "Chosen" was Giles looking back at the crater and saying, "I don't understand. What caused this?" to which Buffy simply replies, "Spike."

My question is, did she ever mention, or did Giles ever apologize for, taking part in the plot to kill Spike, considering just how monumentally wrong that decision would have been? Or do you think that there ever was, or should have been, any mention of it afterward?

No, I doubt Giles ever apologized. Should he have? In my opinion, yes of course. But honestly, are you surprised that he never did? Giles always hated Spike.

As for Buffy speaking of it again, I doubt this ever happened/happens either. Spike's death was a big deal for Buffy. It's an event I like to think she keeps close to her heart, and thinks about often, but doesn't speak of. She confessed her love for him. He saved the world. Personally? I believe the first time she'd mentioned it since it happened was to Angel in the last issue. I don't doubt people asked her about the specifics of "what happened" afterwards (Faith, Dawn) and I'm sure Buffy explained it technically, but I doubt she ever told anyone about the "I love you." That was private. Her and Spike's little secret. 🙂

Personally, I would have HAD to say something like, "Spike. You know, the guy who you never trusted. The guy who wouldn't have been here to save the day if your and Wood's little plan had succeeded. The guy who you can thank the rest of your life for every single breath that you draw after today. Spike."

Lol, I would have loved to hear Buffy say that, but it would have muddled the final scene's dialouge too much.

Personally, I think it says enough that Buffy's last word ever in the televised series is "Spike." I think that was definitely on purpose. Joss made his point. Spike was very important.

 

[Icarium]

If they weren't men enough to apologize, the very least that they could have done was to admit that she had been right all along.

She wasn't right all along, as I said above, the trigger only stopped working after Wood used it and tried to kill Spike. Might as well claim she was right not to kill Spike in say Halloween because he ended up saving the world five years later.

 

[white avenger]

She wasn't right all along, as I said above, the trigger only stopped working after Wood used it and tried to kill Spike. Might as well claim she was right not to kill Spike in say Halloween because he ended up saving the world five years later.

Buffy was, in fact, right all along, as was proved by the fact that she was right in the end. The only way that she could possibly be right in the end is if she were right all along. The only variable is Wood's and Giles' trust in and acceptance of, Buffy's judgment, of her ability to command, and their willingness to follow her orders, even when they disagree, if they intend to be a part of her army. Military organizations, and that is exactly what the Slayer army was and is, are not debate teams. The subordinates advise the commander, but in the end, it is ultimately that commander who makes the decision.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy was, in fact, right all along, as was proved by the fact that she was right in the end.

Not really. We should judge the characters actions based on their reasoning at the current moment. Otherwise we need to also blame the characters for not seeing into the future and acting accordingly to prevent future trouble - say Buffy not sleeping with Angel, Buffy killing Ben the first time she saw him, Buffy sending Warren to prison before he had killed anyone, etc. You can't just praise Buffy for her blind faith in Spike on the basis of things turning out okay in the future while not criticizing her for not seeing what might happen in other cases. Buffy trusting the First (not Spike, the First) was utterly moronic, period. Just because the plot was so badly written that the First never used this to its advantage doesn't make Buffy miraculously right because she had no way of knowing her adversary would be so damned stupid.

 

[Flannen]

No, I doubt Giles ever apologized. Should he have? In my opinion, yes of course. But honestly, are you surprised that he never did? Giles always hated Spike.

This is a huge underestimation of Giles character. If he didn't apologise it would have nothing to do with the fact he always hated Spike. It's hardly an unjustified emotion to have towards him so I think it's unfair to come down on him for it. It makes him sound incredibly juvenile and petty and Giles is not that man. If he hasn't apologised then it will be because, despite the outcome, he felt he was right in his reasons for doing what he did at the time and he shouldn't have to apologise for that. He would never be so pathetic as to pretend for so long just because he doesn't like Spike.

Buffy was, in fact, right all along, as was proved by the fact that she was right in the end. The only way that she could possibly be right in the end is if she were right all along. The only variable is Wood's and Giles' trust in and acceptance of, Buffy's judgment, of her ability to command, and their willingness to follow her orders, even when they disagree, if they intend to be a part of her army. Military organizations, and that is exactly what the Slayer army was and is, are not debate teams. The subordinates advise the commander, but in the end, it is ultimately that commander who makes the decision.

I guess it depends on what you think being right is about. For me, the 'right' here is about how you treat people, people that have laid down their lives for you, every day for several years. Buffy was not right all along about she handled herself and her friends. She could have JUST as easily been wrong but the fact that she wasn't does not mean she is allowed to treat people badly. I don't really care about any of the other army analogies. In a loose sense they were an army, but in reality they weren't and therefore Buffy's treatment of those around her at that time will never be justifiable to me, no matter how 'right' she might have been in the end.

 

[zobothehobo]

I guess it depends on what you think being right is about. For me, the 'right' here is about how you treat people, people that have laid down their lives for you, every day for several years. Buffy was not right all along about she handled herself and her friends. She could have JUST as easily been wrong but the fact that she wasn't does not mean she is allowed to treat people badly. I don't really care about any of the other army analogies. In a loose sense they were an army, but in reality they weren't and therefore Buffy's treatment of those around her at that time will never be justifiable to me, no matter how 'right' she might have been in the end.

I know I'm in the minority here, but watching season 7, I really don't see how Buffy treated everyone poorly. Like I just really do not understand at all.

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------

Flannen agrees: You're not in the minority, by any means. People see things differently. But I'd have blown up if any of my friends has the audacity to throw what I had done for them back in my face. It's all just down to how we read these things.

If she bought them a cup of coffee and threw that back their face, I'd understand saying she mistreated them... But she gave them her LIFE... TWICE. That's a BIG thing. And to have them ignore that... I mean what kind of friends are they?

 

[white avenger]

You can't just praise Buffy for her blind faith in Spike on the basis of things turning out okay in the future while not criticizing her for not seeing what might happen in other cases. Buffy trusting the First (not Spike, the First) was utterly moronic, period. Just because the plot was so badly written that the First never used this to its advantage doesn't make Buffy miraculously right because she had no way of knowing her adversary would be so damned stupid.

This was not a case of Buffy having blind faith in Spike or of trusting the First Evil. Her faith in Spike was based on 6 years of interaction, as enemies, as allies, as lovers, and as friends. Arguably, she knew Spike far better than she ever knew Angel (but that's not the point here) Trusting Spike wasn't some sort of whim. She never once said that she "thought" that Spike could be a better men, she KNEW that he could be, and was. If there was anyone whose vision of Spike was clouded, it was Wood, who never saw anything but the monster who murdered his mother, and Giles, who never saw Spike as anything but the minion of the killer of the woman he loved, and the monster who attempted to rape his Slayer.

And Buffy never trusted the First Evil. She knew that it could never harm either her or anyone else directly, but only through various minions. The only way that Spike could be triggered was by hearing the music. If she, or Faith, was always there whenever he was unchained, the risk was small enough for her to accept. Which is, once again, what commanders do: measure risks and compare them to potential (no pun intended) gains. If she saw the potential gains of having Spike available outweighed the potential risks, then keeping Spike with her was not only her right, but also unquestionably her duty. Remember what Buffy told Wood? "I'm in the battle of my life. I don't have time for vendettas." Wood and Giles had vendettas. Buffy had responsibilities

 

[Icarium]

This was not a case of Buffy having blind faith in Spike or of trusting the First Evil.

Oh, yes it was. Spike had a trigger. Buffy saw that with her own eyes, yet chose to ignore it. That's a fact.

If there was anyone whose vision of Spike was clouded, it was Wood, who never saw anything but the monster who murdered his mother, and Giles, who never saw Spike as anything but the minion of the killer of the woman he loved, and the monster who attempted to rape his Slayer.

I don't think Giles knows about the attempted rape and if he saw Spike as Angel's minion that way he would have staked Spike in Doomed at the very latest.

And Buffy never trusted the First Evil. She knew that it could never harm either her or anyone else directly, but only through various minions. The only way that Spike could be triggered was by hearing the music. If she, or Faith, was always there whenever he was unchained

But they were not always there. That's a fact. See First Date for example. Buffy is out on a date and Spike is unchained. Or LMPTM when she first insists on unchaining Spike right after seeing that the trigger is working, then goes out to train with Giles. And what is Spike if a melody can turn him against them. All the bringers have to do is bring a portable CD player and he would switch sides. 🙂 Some strongest fighter, that Spike...

If she saw the potential gains of having Spike available outweighed the potential risks, then keeping Spike with her was not only her right, but also unquestionably her duty. Remember what Buffy told Wood? "I'm in the battle of my life. I don't have time for vendettas." Wood and Giles had vendettas. Buffy had responsibilities

Riight, Buffy blindly trusting Spike is "responsibility" while Giles trying to minimize the damage is "vendetta". Good one. Sure, Giles was idiot too - if he wanted Spike dead he should have done it himself, not conspire with some he had just met. This doesn't make Buffy's insistence that there was no problem any less stupid, though.

 

[Flannen]

If she bought them a cup of coffee and threw that back their face, I'd understand saying she mistreated them... But she gave them her LIFE... TWICE. That's a BIG thing. And to have them ignore that... I mean what kind of friends are they?

Actually the cup of coffee wouldn't be as bad as what she actually did, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think they ignored that, at all. And even by disagreeing with her they didn't do that. Yes, she gave them her life, but that was her JOB as the Slayer. It was her calling, she didn't have much choice (not that I'm saying she deserved it or anything) but it wasn't their job or calling or obligation to lay down their lives for her, to lose their eyes, for the potentials to have their necks snapped. Her behaviour towards them in season seven, as far as I'm concerned, was nothing but mistreatment and an ignorance of what THEY had done for her. She wouldn't have been there standing treating them like dirt if it wasn't for her. Sure she gave them her life twice, but they saved and kept hers for her many more times.

And I guess, in line with the other things being tossed around in this thread, her choosing to ignore their fears and concerns in the way that she did, for someone who had probably attempted to kill or harm her more times than he'd tried to help her, would have seemed a little off to them.

 

[zobothehobo]

Actually the cup of coffee wouldn't be as bad as what she actually did, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think they ignored that, at all. And even by disagreeing with her they didn't do that. Yes, she gave them her life, but that was her JOB as the Slayer. It was her calling, she didn't have much choice (not that I'm saying she deserved it or anything) but it wasn't their job or calling or obligation to lay down their lives for her, to lose their eyes, for the potentials to have their necks snapped. Her behaviour towards them in season seven, as far as I'm concerned, was nothing but mistreatment and an ignorance of what THEY had done for her. She wouldn't have been there standing treating them like dirt if it wasn't for her. Sure she gave them her life twice, but they saved and kept hers for her many more times.

And I guess, in line with the other things being tossed around in this thread, her choosing to ignore their fears and concerns in the way that she did, for someone who had probably attempted to kill or harm her more times than he'd tried to help her, would have seemed a little off to them.

But it's their duty as people. When they signed on to help her, the agreed to lay down their lives for the cause. If they didn't want to do that, they should have left.

 

[Flannen]

But it's their duty as people. When they signed on to help her, the agreed to lay down their lives for the cause. If they didn't want to do that, they should have left.

Maybe they should have but personally that argument alone ignores what they did for her and for the world in general which is what the last part of my post pointed out. And is it really their duty as people? I think 'duty' is going a little too far. If it was the duty of people to handle the underworld then there wouldn't need to be a slayer. If it was duty of a person why was Buffy one of the only Slayers that actually had friends, let alone people fighting alongside. And even if was their duty it doesn't mean that they what they do should be left so unappreciated. Going back to war analogies, soldiers sign up to fight for their country as a duty but it doesn't mean what they do shouldn't be appreciated by their superiors.

 

[Icarium]

Willow, Xander et al. were risking their lives to the end, so I don't see what your point is. They just refused to do it in the way Buffy wanted them to. For me the argument whether they were right to do so or not boils down to this - she explicitly tells them she doesn't trust them. How can she possibly expect them to trust her then?

 

[zobothehobo]

Maybe they should have but personally that argument alone ignores what they did for her and for the world in general which is what the last part of my post pointed out. And is it really their duty as people? I think 'duty' is going a little too far. If it was the duty of people to handle the underworld then there wouldn't need to be a slayer. If it was duty of a person why was Buffy one of the only Slayers that actually had friends, let alone people fighting alongside. And even if was their duty it doesn't mean that they what they do should be left so unappreciated. Going back to war analogies, soldiers sign up to fight for their country as a duty but it doesn't mean what they do shouldn't be appreciated by their superiors.

I don't know, but I personally believe it's our duty... all of us... to do everything in our power to make the world a better place. Because they were involved with Buffy, it was their duty to help protect the world, as that was the most they could do in their power to make the world a better place. It was their duty as friends to back her up their duty as people to want what's best for their world.

And I totally agree that their efforts should be appreciated by Buffy. But in season 7 when she bitched them out for not giving their all, she was right. I don't think Buffy was unappreciative. I think she had bigger things to do than coddle them and say "good job! You did it!" every time they did anything. After it was over, it was time for praise.... but in the fight, it was time for more fight.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

Willow, Xander et al. were risking their lives to the end, so I don't see what your point is. They just refused to do it in the way Buffy wanted them to. For me the argument whether they were right to do so or not boils down to this - she explicitly tells them she doesn't trust them. How can she possibly expect them to trust her then?

Because she's the slayer. I know that sounds ridiculous... but she had intuition that they didn't. And ultimately as White Avenger has stated, her intuition was proven right.

 

[Flannen]

I don't know, but I personally believe it's our duty... all of us... to do everything in our power to make the world a better place. Because they were involved with Buffy, it was their duty to help protect the world, as that was the most they could do in their power to make the world a better place. It was their duty as friends to back her up their duty as people to want what's best for their world.

And I totally agree that their efforts should be appreciated by Buffy. But in season 7 when she bitched them out for not giving their all, she was right. I don't think Buffy was unappreciative. I think she had bigger things to do than coddle them and say "good job! You did it!" every time they did anything. After it was over, it was time for praise.... but in the fight, it was time for more fight.

I too think that as people we have that kind of 'duty' but I don't relate the two together so much because our duty of making the world a better place is not fighting monsters and laying down our lives, it's being good people and not douchebags lol so I struggle to see the comparison there because the 'Verse is, obviously, so far removed from our world. Don't get me wrong, I do see what you're it's just my own dislike of comparing reality and fantasy too much.

It wasn't a case of them wanting to be coddled though. And disagreeing with her is not a case of them not giving their all. They didn't want to lose any more lives over impulsive, flawed plans of action. To me, that's not not giving your all but rather being the best, most efficient group of fighters possible, striving to execute the plan in the best way possible. And given the previous events, Buffy plan didn't seem to do that.

Where she was unappreciative was her dismissal of THEIR experience in doing that job. They'd fought beside her for years. They had seen things go wrong in the past and lives lost unnecessarily and they didn't want that to happen again and that's totally fair enough to me. But what isn't fair, was that Buffy completely dismissed all of that in place of someone who they (Willow, Xander, Giles) had spent years helping her try to defeat and kill and who they were struggling to trust. Maybe she had more important things to be worrying about but that still doesn't justify her not taking a single second to think rationally and diplomatically.

 

[Icarium]

Because she's the slayer. I know that sounds ridiculous... but she had intuition that they didn't.

It sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous. There is no indication whatsoever Slayers have mystical leadership qualities and even stone age tribes don't always follow the warrior who punches the strongest but pick the one who can lead them best in battle for a chief.

That's what I wondered, how do people actively enjoy our being at the top of the table. What you wrote was the only thing I could think of...

That's circular logic. What happened ultimately has no bearing on what the characters' motivation was before that, unless the characters are prophet who can see the future.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think they ignored that, at all. And even by disagreeing with her they didn't do that. Yes, she gave them her life, but that was her JOB as the Slayer. It was her calling, she didn't have much choice (not that I'm saying she deserved it or anything) but it wasn't their job or calling or obligation to lay down their lives for her, to lose their eyes, for the potentials to have their necks snapped. Her behaviour towards them in season seven, as far as I'm concerned, was nothing but mistreatment and an ignorance of what THEY had done for her. She wouldn't have been there standing treating them like dirt if it wasn't for her. Sure she gave them her life twice, but they saved and kept hers for her many more times.

And I guess, in line with the other things being tossed around in this thread, her choosing to ignore their fears and concerns in the way that she did, for someone who had probably attempted to kill or harm her more times than he'd tried to help her, would have seemed a little off to them.

Once more. As long as the Potentials, the Scoobies, and all of the other various assorted people chose to live under Buffy's roof and to accept her protection, as long as they accepted the fact that they were in a fight for not only their very lives, dut also the lives of possibly everyone else in the world, they were an army, and Buffy was the general. That means that she is the one who gives the orders and they are the ones who abide by them. They all, even Dawn, had the option of leaving at any time that they thought that they couldn't live under those rules, but as long as it was Buffy's blood, Buffy's bones, and Buffy's pain, they were happy to stay safe and let Buffy be the good little soldier. But once it became more personal, once it became their blood, their bones, and their lives at stake, suddenly the risk was too great, Buffy was a tyrant, and they wanted her out.

No soldier in his or her right mind enjoys going into harm's way. The adrenaline rush that you feel when it's your life at risk isn't excitement, it's fear, and it's usually quite well founded. Soldiers go into battle out of a sense of duty and a belief that what they are doing, the risks that they are taking, the terrible things that they will have to do and see others do, serve a greater purpose. In order to serve that greater purpose, those soldiers have to give up certain things, and one of those things is the right to disobey orders just because they don't agree with their commander. They have to willingly and without argument accept the fact that their commander is privy to facts and details that they themselves are not, and that their commander's instincts are going to be correct. To defy the legal orders of one's commanding officer in war is mutiny, and can be punishable by death.

Buffy was the commander, she gave the orders, she took the responsibility for those orders. In no interpretation of commanding officer do you see the terms, "have to listen to and change decisions because the troops don't like the risks," or even, "Has to promise that no one will get wounded, maimed, or killed." Military service is based on neither debate or popular rule. Buffy trusted Spike, and ultimately her trust in him was proven to be well founded. Buffy was right, Giles and Wood, along with everybody else, were wrong. Yes, people did get injured or even died, but more got out than stayed behind, so that qualifies as a successful mission, and a large part of that success if not the entire victory was due to Spike. That means that Buffy was right, all along, to trust Spike. The fact that someone else disagreed in no way lessens the fact that her faith in him was well founded, or detracts from the fact that her decision was the right one.

 

[zobothehobo]

I too think that as people we have that kind of 'duty' but I don't relate the two together so much because our duty of making the world a better place is not fighting monsters and laying down our lives, it's being good people and not douchebags lol so I struggle to see the comparison there because the 'Verse is, obviously, so far removed from our world. Don't get me wrong, I do see what you're it's just my own dislike of comparing reality and fantasy too much.

It wasn't a case of them wanting to be coddled though. And disagreeing with her is not a case of them not giving their all. They didn't want to lose any more lives over impulsive, flawed plans of action. To me, that's not not giving your all but rather being the best, most efficient group of fighters possible, striving to execute the plan in the best way possible. And given the previous events, Buffy plan didn't seem to do that.

Where she was unappreciative was her dismissal of THEIR experience in doing that job. They'd fought beside her for years. They had seen things go wrong in the past and lives lost unnecessarily and they didn't want that to happen again and that's totally fair enough to me. But what isn't fair, was that Buffy completely dismissed all of that in place of someone who they (Willow, Xander, Giles) had spent years helping her try to defeat and kill and who they were struggling to trust. Maybe she had more important things to be worrying about but that still doesn't justify her not taking a single second to think rationally and diplomatically.

Ok, I guess I kind of see where you're coming from now... I'll be honest, the first time I watched season 7 (and every time after that) I kind of completely dismissed everything they said too... because I knew Buffy was right. But I think it goes back to the characters don't know everything the viewer does. Buffy was right because of her slayer intuition... but other than trusting that the special chosen one intuition, the other characters had NO evidence to believe she was right.

But at the same time, while I get that... I also get Buffy didn't have evidence to show them. But she FELT it. And that feeling isn't something she could explain to them. She dismissed their concerns and ideas because she felt in the deepest part of her she was right... but it was more than that, she knew she was right. She didn't trust them because she knew they couldn't feel what she felt if she tried to explain it. All she could do is ask that they trust her... and THAT'S where the trowing the dying for you in their faces came... She was like "You have more than enough reason to trust me. Please, just do it." And they didn't.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy was the commander, she gave the orders, she took the responsibility for those orders. In no interpretation of commanding officer do you see the terms, "have to listen to and change decisions because the troops don't like the risks," or even, "Has to promise that no one will get wounded, maimed, or killed." Military service is based on neither debate or popular rule. Buffy trusted Spike, and ultimately her trust in him was proven to be well founded. Buffy was right, Giles and Wood, along with everybody else, were wrong. Yes, people did get injured or even died, but more got out than stayed behind, so that qualifies as a successful mission, and a large part of that success if not the entire victory was due to Spike. That means that Buffy was right, all along, to trust Spike.

Once again, Buffy was right only because Wood unwittingly disabled the trigger and Wolfram and Hart provided the amulet, two events Buffy couldn't have possibly seen coming. If Oz's plan to attack the Mayor with hummus was tried in GD II and through some plot contrivance it had worked would you have said it was a brilliant plan?

But at the same time, while I get that... I also get Buffy didn't have evidence to show them. But she FELT it.

You mean like she felt it was a good idea to go fight Angel in Becoming I and this led to Kendra dying? Buffy isn't infallible, nor is she in any way, shape or form a seer, unless she gets Slayer dreams, something that didn't happen in the time period we are discussing. A leader should trust their brain, not their feelings.

 

[Flannen]

Once more. As long as the Potentials, the Scoobies, and all of the other various assorted people chose to live under Buffy's roof and to accept her protection, as long as they accepted the fact that they were in a fight for not only their very lives, dut also the lives of possibly everyone else in the world, they were an army, and Buffy was the general. That means that she is the one who gives the orders and they are the ones who abide by them. They all, even Dawn, had the option of leaving at any time that they thought that they couldn't live under those rules, but as long as it was Buffy's blood, Buffy's bones, and Buffy's pain, they were happy to stay safe and let Buffy be the good little soldier. But once it became more personal, once it became their blood, their bones, and their lives at stake, suddenly the risk was too great, Buffy was a tyrant, and they wanted her out.

No soldier in his or her right mind enjoys going into harm's way. The adrenaline rush that you feel when it's your life at risk isn't excitement, it's fear, and it's usually quite well founded. Soldiers go into battle out of a sense of duty and a belief that what they are doing, the risks that they are taking, the terrible things that they will have to do and see others do, serve a greater purpose. In order to serve that greater purpose, those soldiers have to give up certain things, and one of those things is the right to disobey orders just because they don't agree with their commander. They have to willingly and without argument accept the fact that their commander is privy to facts and details that they themselves are not, and that their commander's instincts are going to be correct. To defy the legal orders of one's commanding officer in war is mutiny, and can be punishable by death.

Buffy was the commander, she gave the orders, she took the responsibility for those orders. In no interpretation of commanding officer do you see the terms, "have to listen to and change decisions because the troops don't like the risks," or even, "Has to promise that no one will get wounded, maimed, or killed." Military service is based on neither debate or popular rule. Buffy trusted Spike, and ultimately her trust in him was proven to be well founded. Buffy was right, Giles and Wood, along with everybody else, were wrong. Yes, people did get injured or even died, but more got out than stayed behind, so that qualifies as a successful mission, and a large part of that success if not the entire victory was due to Spike. That means that Buffy was right, all along, to trust Spike. The fact that someone else disagreed in no way lessens the fact that her faith in him was well founded, or detracts from the fact that her decision was the right one.

In your opinion yes, but absolutely not in mine. Again, this analogy completely belittles the other characters. The other Scoobies had more than enough experience to be absolutely justified in their reasons to disagree with her and hesitate about her plan. They were not an army, as far as I'm concerned. They were bog standard, joe average people who chose to fight. They fought well, they got Buffy out of so many things, so many times and that means that they absolutely did not deserve to act like little children who just said 'yes, Buffy, lead us to our deaths, hurrah!' You are absolutely entitled to think that they should have done so, but that does not mean that is exactly what the situation was. Again, the reality : fantasy thing here is just not working for me. It is an interpretation only and no matter how many times it is stated it is not one I agree with. You can teach a dog old tricks, and Buffy should have respected that not thrown a wobbly about it.

The problem I have with your argument, is that you seem to refuse to entertain the fact that she could have just as easily been wrong. Spike attacked Andrew when he was being controlled by the First and he could have just as easily have killed the others. So as far as I'm concerned her faith in him was lucky, not well founded.

As to your idea zobo, about her having a feeling that was so right, I see what you're saying and I think that some of her pathetic behaviour when she was trying to get that across came from desperation and frustration, but again, it just doesn't justify her actions enough for me 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I have read all this, but can't get passed this bit.

This was not a case of Buffy having blind faith in Spike or of trusting the First Evil. Her faith in Spike was based on 6 years of interaction, as enemies, as allies, as lovers, and as friends. Arguably, she knew Spike far better than she ever knew Angel (but that's not the point here) Trusting Spike wasn't some sort of whim. She never once said that she "thought" that Spike could be a better men, she KNEW that he could be, and was. If there was anyone whose vision of Spike was clouded, it was Wood, who never saw anything but the monster who murdered his mother, and Giles, who never saw Spike as anything but the minion of the killer of the woman he loved, and the monster who attempted to rape his Slayer.

And Buffy never trusted the First Evil. She knew that it could never harm either her or anyone else directly, but only through various minions. The only way that Spike could be triggered was by hearing the music. If she, or Faith, was always there whenever he was unchained, the risk was small enough for her to accept. Which is, once again, what commanders do: measure risks and compare them to potential (no pun intended) gains. If she saw the potential gains of having Spike available outweighed the potential risks, then keeping Spike with her was not only her right, but also unquestionably her duty. Remember what Buffy told Wood?

Please give me an answer for these:

How was she right to trust Spike for something he had no control over?
- I would agree if she was trusting him as a unsould vampire, but this wasn't the case, Spike wasn't in control of his actions, why is she trusting him?

And your second part is total bull, the First could appear to 1 person at a time, even with multiple people in the room, how did they have any control over when Spike hears the music?

"I'm in the battle of my life. I don't have time for vendettas." Wood and Giles had vendettas. Buffy had responsibilities

I agree Wood had a vendetta, Giles didn't, what's his reason for a vendetta against Spike, other then protecting the house full of helpless teenage girls from the vampire that could loose all control of his actions?