What is the most 'evil' thing that Angel does?

[vellavu]

To make the answer not that obvious, I'm gonna take an Angel whitewashing position on S8 in the choices.

 

[gite63]

Twilight. And he didn't allow it to control him, he willingly accepted its offer to pose as Twilight.

 

[Rogueslayer]

Well, I'm only familiar with Angel up to season 5 of the tv series as I haven't read the comics nor know where to find them online. I voted for setting a bunch of gladiator demons free on the world instead of allowing dru and darla feed on the lawyers because, those lawyers knew they were working for evil and chaos when they signed their contracts. I feel that Angel knew later when he signed up to head Wolfram and Hart that he's heading an evil enterprise. You can't be evil and not expect for there to be some sort of retribution. Angel's evil was justified, and he ended up getting his for his actions.

They never resolved the freeing of the demon gladiater situation though. There was never a reference to it later in the series but you know those guys are out there hurting a lot of people.

 

[bespangeled]

Selling himself, and his friends, to W&H - to pay for the global mid wipe. So much wrong on so many levels - I really prefer Angelus.

Even more than that - when they decided to take on the Black Thorn they knowing unleashed hordes of demons on the city of LA. Yeah, they were making their stand against evil - just like freeing the gladiator demons was about slavery - but huge amounts of innocent people must have died. And they knew there was no way they would be able to take the demons out - this was mass death on a huge scale.

 

[thetopher]

Twilight.
Igrorance for what the plan actually involved is no excuse- quite a few people died. I can see every other choice as somewhat forgivable but not that.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I actually think ignorance that you're being tricked is an excuse. Letting Darla & Dru kill all the lawyers was the worst thing - because he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[The Bronze]

You missed allowing a demon to feast on a hotel full of people and then taking advantage of the reduced property price and stolen money to buy a nice live in office.

But the answer is still Twilight. Difficult to top full on Super Villain with the costume, powers and God complex.

 

[Wildfly]

No idea about the comics, so I am going with continuing to kill after he'd got his soul back. That was actively chosing to do evil for selfish reasons (staying with Darla) with the cheap excuse that he only kills the scum of society. Worse than inaction or making the wrong decisions with good intentions.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I actually don't blame him for that - it's similar to when you grow apart from your friends/significant other but stay with them a while because that's what you're used to. Those are the people he knew, the life he knew, and he probably didn't really know what was wrong with him.

 

[Wildfly]

Good point, there are extenuating circumstances. Getting his soul back and being scorned by Darla as a disgusting abomination 🙂 (gotta love the reverse morals) he must have been very confused and i get it why he tried to compromise.

But taking a life when you're perfectly aware that what you do is wrong, adding to your guilt consciously, is worse than trying to do good and messing up, like he did in the Ats finale.

In those long days when he catalogued his sins i wonder which he himself considered the worst? Angel is sentimental, so probably the ones where he took the lives of people who had a meaningful life ahead of them or people who were missed by their loved ones.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Does anything really beat Twilight? That was certainly the most messed up thing he has ever done.

Locking the lawyers in that room was pretty dark though, even for Angel...

What about trying ti strangle Wesley after he found out he tried to steal Connor?
 

Good point, there are extenuating circumstances. Getting his soul back and being scorned by Darla as a disgusting abomination 🙂 (gotta love the reverse morals) he must have been very confused and i get it why he tried to compromise.

But taking a life when you're perfectly aware that what you do is wrong, adding to your guilt consciously, is worse than trying to do good and messing up, like he did in the Ats finale.

In those long days when he catalogued his sins i wonder which he himself considered the worst? Angel is sentimental, so probably the ones where he took the lives of people who had a meaningful life ahead of them or people who were missed by their loved ones.

To Angel, the end justifies the means. He has no qualms killing anyone if it serves his mission. This belief drives most of his decisions. In a warped way he believed even with Twilight that he was doing the right thing. This is why in a way I see him as one of the darkest characters on the show. Not evil, but not good, either.

I always got the feeling Angel always regretted turning Dru, torturing her and making her crazy.

 

[sosa lola]

I picked helping Darla/Dru kill W&H lawyers, but I should have voted for Twilight. That was pretty messed up.

 

[gite63]

Does anything really beat Twilight? That was certainly the most messed up thing he has ever done.

What about trying ti strangle Wesley after he found out he tried to steal Connor?

Twilight: rat-alley Angel could have used the excuse of ignorance, but Champion Angel... no.

Angel had a very good reason to want to kill Wesley; but if he truly wanted it, he would have snapped his neck.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

The comics are so much dross- they don't exist for me- so I'll say the Connor mind-wipe thing. It seemed unnessesary for him to do that, like he didn't trust his friends.

I always totally understood why Angel did what he did in the '50's. As far as he's concerned humans became the monsters that they accused him of being, so he let nature take its course.
Then later he returns tot he hotel and, realising now that everyone makes horrible mistakes, he releases -Julia?- from her guilt and moves into the place where he failed his firsr 'helpless' victim, as he sees it. 🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

I don't really see most of the options on this poll as evil. Some have major meta reasons and others I completely understand. Some things not on this poll are simple character assasinations.

Letting bad guys live (Harmony, Darla, Dru and more) I can't fault Angel for. Same as I don't fault Buffy for letting Harmony, Dru, Spike or Anya live. Those characters or their actors are favorites of the writers so they are protected. The writers clearly don't care how it makes the heroes look by letting those baddies go free. So I'm not going to fault them for it.

Selling himself to W&H I have no issues with either. I would do anything to save my child as well. How is that evil? And his friends made the choice to join him of their own free will.

Allowing his soul to be extracted wasn't his idea to begin with. And they had security meassures set up until they were betrayed by one of their own. The intent was for the greater good.

I have no issues with Angel walking away and letting Darla and Dru kill the W&H lawyers because I can't stand the shows racism. Evil is evil. I don't care if it's demons destroying the world or humans. And W&H is all about using humans to destroy humanity.

Manipulating his friends for a suicide mission? When did that happen? If you mean the end of S5 where he plainly told them what his plan was and gave them a choice to join him or not then I fail to see where the manipulation comes from.

Getting Connor erased from peoples memories doesn't really change anything for the people involved except forgetting one person they used to know. Not saying it was right but it certainly wasn't evil.

The Twlight nonsense was character assasination of the highest order and I will forever be pissed at Joss for throwing Angel (and his show) under the bus for this crap.

Refusing to help Buffy pre-show/S1/S2. Uh what? When did that happen? Angel was in no shape to help Buffy pre-show and we were told that on screen. He saw Buffy maybe 2-3 days pre-show (judging from the Becoming flashback) and then went to Sunnydale ahead of Buffy to get in shape. In S1 he helped as much as he could. If the reference here is the S1 finale well I can't exactly blame Angel for not being able to see into the future and know Buffy would change her mind about facing the Master. And when did he refuse to help her in S2? When he was Angelus?

Probably the worst thing Angel did from my POV was wanting to lose his soul willingly in S2 when he slept with Darla. Willingly setting Angelus free. I could also count him killing murderers and rapists when he returned to Darla's side after being re-ensouled. But since that was done in the service of Angel&Darla 4eva (Tim Minear being the big shipper of those two) I tend to ignore that piece of retconning in the service of romance.

 

[vellavu]

I don't really see most of the options on this poll as evil. Some have major meta reasons and others I completely understand. Some things not on this poll are simple character assasinations.

I think the big assumption here is that the Buffyverse is real and the writers don't exist. No matter how inconsistent a character seems to be, we have to find an in-story view, and can't retreat for a meta explanation.

Otherwise we can say something like "Warren is good. It's just the writers screwed him up by writing those bad deeds he did."

 

[RomanticSoul]

I think the big assumption here is that the Buffyverse is real and the writers don't exist. No matter how inconsistent a character seems to be, we have to find an in-story view, and can't retreat for a meta explanation.

Otherwise we can say something like "Warren is good. It's just the writers screwed him up by writing those bad deeds he did."

And normally I subscribe to that. But I need in-show reasons in order for that to work. Sadly the writers are so blatant about that, specially in later Seasons, that I just can't suspend my disbelieve since it's clearly a meta reason. That Spike remains unstaked from S4-6 makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in-show. Time and again he betrayed and tried to kill/rape the Scoobies or random people and no dusting. And there is no reason given to me in the story as to why (chip doesn't count). By S5 they go so far as put in a meta comment about the absurdity of Spike still being around (Riley and the plastic stake). In Crush Buffy lets Harmony, Dru and Spike walk off without moving a muscle. The hell? In S4 Harmony turns her back on Buffy to yack endlessly and Buffy doesn't move to stake her. Again wth? And I know the reason for that is the writers wanting to keep those characters around. Because if Buffy was allowed to be in character in those situation and make good of her job description 'Vampire SLAYER' those vamps would be dust.

 

[white avenger]

For the sheer magnitude of death, destruction, and mayhem actually accomplished, nothing else comes even close to Twilight. That surpasses even Angelus' plot to destroy the world in Season 2, and with no more real excuse that that a talking dog made him believe that it could beat the combined power of Buffy, all of her friends and allies, and a space ship full of giant cockroaches. Okay, maybe he didn't know about the cockroaches, but even without them, he knew about Buffy, and he knew from experience that she has a consistent habit of beating any and all Big Bads that cross her path. Then, killing Giles was just the icing on the cake, and the excuse of, "well, it was actually Twilight that did that," doesn't hold water, because, unlike Spike in Season 7, Angel willingly, while in full control of his faculties, struck the bargain to destroy the Buffyverse, therefore he is directly responsible for any and all actions performed by himself while under Twilight's influence. Not even a plea of, "It got to me while I was still delirious and overcome with guilt from regaining my soul," would work here.

 

[ChaseRules]

For the sheer magnitude of death, destruction, and mayhem actually accomplished, nothing else comes even close to Twilight. That surpasses even Angelus' plot to destroy the world in Season 2, and with no more real excuse that that a talking dog made him believe that it could beat the combined power of Buffy, all of her friends and allies, and a space ship full of giant cockroaches. Okay, maybe he didn't know about the cockroaches, but even without them, he knew about Buffy, and he knew from experience that she has a consistent habit of beating any and all Big Bads that cross her path. Then, killing Giles was just the icing on the cake, and the excuse of, "well, it was actually Twilight that did that," doesn't hold water, because, unlike Spike in Season 7, Angel willingly, while in full control of his faculties, struck the bargain to destroy the Buffyverse, therefore he is directly responsible for any and all actions performed by himself while under Twilight's influence. Not even a plea of, "It got to me while I was still delirious and overcome with guilt from regaining my soul," would work here.

I agree with you . Angel wanted nothing more than to be with Buffy . He believed he knew better and so he joined up with people who hated Buffy & did all he could to break her just like Angilius did with Dru until & then he got what he wanted. If he had truly cared for her he would have done none of those things but all he cared about was him self & not thinking about all the people he was killing .

Helping Darla/Dru kill W&H lawyers was nothing compared to that . A number of people have killed in the heat of the moment & gotten lesser sentences
so the same for Angel there . Why should they get away with what they did just because they human . Remember they had signed up with a demon
organization . It was evil what happened but it was by no means the worst .

 

[Iwearthecheese]

but even without them, he knew about Buffy, and he knew from experience that she has a consistent habit of beating any and all Big Bads that cross her path.

But of course Buffy didn't beat him, she slept with him and almost brought about the end of the world.
After every evil thing he'd done she still did what she did to Spike in 'Smashed'- jumped on 'her vampire' because she was feeling lonely or disconnected or something.

Clearly she didn't care much about the evils and murder Angel'd commited and was complicit in not only in what happened afterwards but Giles death.