Mr Trick
Scooby
I hope you are right. One thing I would like to keep is freedom of movement. That benefits both sides.
Taake
Yes, but that one seems particularly tricky, sadly.
What should the legal voting age be?
- Thread starter Mr Trick
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I hope you are right. One thing I would like to keep is freedom of movement. That benefits both sides.
white avenger
white avenger
It's my understanding that the age of 18 is when someone in the United States is considered legally adult, meaning that they can, among other things, own property in their own name and enter into a legal contract without a parent or guardian's permission or approval. Granted, people can get married or join military service as young as 16, but ONLY with their parent's permission.
Skanky Vamp
Still not adult enough to buy alcohol. Or at least legally.
Yep it keeps wages low for blue collar workers , and of course it benefits criminals ,people trafficking ETC...... all pluses
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WillowFromBuffy
Guest
I am tempted to just flip this around. You mentioned experience and the maturity of the brain. Why not reserve voting privileges for senior pensioners. Their brains are all grown and they have the most experience, as well as endless time on their hands.
You probably meant it as a ridiculous question, but even though I would not propose letting 10 year olds vote or that young voters should bring a doctor's note to the polling station, I think it is a question worth thinking about, because the body (the fertile female body in particular) is heavily contested political territory. We as adults need to acknowledge the responsibility of making decision of behalf of young people with limited autonomy and control. We take the role of their (supposedly) benevolent caretakers when we decide matters such as availability of contraception, abortion rights and possibility of gender correction surgery or treatment.
If we raise the voting age to 25 (sic!), then the belated response of the governing body to the will of the populace will ensure that the votes of you and your peers won't matter until you are entering middle age. By this time, the child you could not abort at 16 has grown up and left the house, you chose to have no more children, because kindergarten was too expensive, and your same sex partner of 10 years died in hospital, but you could not say goodbye, because their family denied you access. Of course, there is a lot left of life, but what do you really need politics for now? The benchmarks of your life have come and gone and things turned out like they did. You've almost paid down the mortgage to your flat, so financial security will ensure that you can handle most future eventualities. All your vote is good for now is tyrannising the young.
Setting the voting age to 25 would create an underclass of young people. Seniors would be free to raise income tax and lower property tax, and ensure insane pensions for public servants. As mentioned by others, during the Brexit referendum, a high number of seniors voted on a decision that would have little bearing of their own lives, but which is likely to be a turning point in the history of Britain, Europe and the wider world. Many young people chose to stay at home, which is there prerogative, but imagine if most of the people who would actually live to see the full effect of the referendum were barred from having their opinion even heard. What old person would care about climate change or renewable resources? They're on their way out and their grandchildren don't visit anyway, so let's buy a summer house somewhere warm, so we can bring home some exotic diseases in our poorly resistant bodies.
I think there are three things worth considering when deciding when people should be allowed to vote.
1) People should be able to have a say in matters that concerns them. People in their twenties are in an important stage in their lives and they are important to society. They have to both start their careers and establish families.
2) There should be some balance between rights and responsibilities. We cannot infantilize people in their early twenties, and neither should we lord over them. Children and young adults under 18 (here and most elsewhere) do not have the same rights as legal adults, but neither are they responsible for themselves in the same way.
3) The last would be the ability to form a political opinion. I am not a rationalist and lean quite far towards post-modernism, so I don't give this too much weight. For me, truth is very much a power issue. I don't think rationalism or democracy really work together. I would assume a radical rationalist would prefer a system like the one Plato lays out in The Republic, where a trained elite of the best and brightest form a ruling class. Surely, if we were serious about ability to vote, we would also bar the mentally challenged and ill informed from voting. Democracy ensures that the country is run in a way that alienates and upsets the fewest amount of people, thought there are places where it has failed spectacularly, such as in Norther Ireland, though they have been somewhat successful in ensuring minority participation.
TL;DR: I am happy with 18 as the voting age, but I would rather see it lowered than raised. If the alternative was raising it to ... say 30 ... I would rather let toddlers vote.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I don't think that's true. It's largely a fantasy created by the Right wing press and certain politicians. There's no reason why a large amount of immigration has to effect the living wage of people in this country. Don't forget a lot of EU immigrates are here to study so only here for a short spell anyway. Or if they do stay they often pay their way. Besides everytime there are question marks over the health service or housing etc.. the buck is always past to the influx of immigrates. Government should take responsibility and provide better funding or planning for such things. Without immigration our services would grind to a halt. It's up to the Government to raise the living wage to the cost of living.
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WillowFromBuffy
Guest
You don't think craftsmen from countries with a larger pay gap between blue and white collars workers will move to countries where they get paid better, and that they bring down the wages in countries they move to?
Mr Trick
Scooby
I do, but then there has to be things put in place in this country to make sure that doesn't happen. Its just as much our fault as it is theirs. Plus as I said I think most long term immigrates come from outside the EU anyway. Sometimes it feels like we target the wrong people. I believe there has to be some control on immigration, but it has to be done properly.
gwenogjones
Scooby
For regular elections I would say 18 is fine. That is when you are legally recognised as an adult so that should be when you start to vote. HOWEVER for once in a life time referendums that will affect the future of your country for decades to come *pointed cough* then it should be dropped to 16 - because the outcome is going to affect 16 year olds for far longer than it is going to affect the over 65s intent on buggering up their future. It shouldn't go lower than 16, though - because there has to be a cut off point somewhere - and 16 is mature enough to understand the basics, younger than that and it's more likely to be children voting the way their parents tell them to. Up until recently in Britain - you could leave school at 16 (I think now it's 17). That's when you're old enough to (legally) get a Saturday job, you can smoke, have sex and play the lottery at that age. If the establishment believes you're compos mentis enough for all that, then you're mature enough to vote in a once in a life time referendum. However as you're not yet considered compos mentis enough to drive or drink (and never at the same time!) it isn't strictly necessary (or hypocritical) to allow under 18s to vote in local and general elections - as they will come round again and they will have a later opportunity to engage in the political future of their country.
having said that - I would like to see referendums made illegal in Britain (barring indie refs, I suppose). We do not need them, they are not a part of our parliamentary system and so are open to massive abuses. I think they're illegal in Germany?
having said that - I would like to see referendums made illegal in Britain (barring indie refs, I suppose). We do not need them, they are not a part of our parliamentary system and so are open to massive abuses. I think they're illegal in Germany?
nightshade
Smoking is 18 these days!
gwenogjones
Scooby
J
joseph
Guest
it should be older then Eighteen you ever see How dumb young people seem to be I mean look at how people of my Generation attack Pres Trump in the Usa and Tony Blair when he was Pm of the of The UK.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
It sounds like there would be some support for an upper limit to the voting age - you could vote between 18 and 60 but not outside of those ages. After all, older people have usually voted to feather their own nests at the expense of people starting out.
As far as the EU is concerned, it is barely a democracy at all. You have the European Council which is the council of the member governments, the European Commission which negotiates trade agreements, enforces antitrust legislation and proposes legislation and the European Parliament whose 751 members are elected directly and have no ability to propose legislation and has limited control over the budget. You currently have civil servants in Greece retiring at age 55 on 90% pension whereas the Germans retire at 67 on nowhere near as much and any attempt to homogenize the regulations will be opposed by those who stand to lose. Add to this, the poor economy in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece and you get the wealthy countries like France and Germany left to carry the load. No country is its own master - the initial push for Brexit came from the government wanting to eliminate the tax on feminine hygiene products but they were not allowed to do that as members of the EU.
As far as the EU is concerned, it is barely a democracy at all. You have the European Council which is the council of the member governments, the European Commission which negotiates trade agreements, enforces antitrust legislation and proposes legislation and the European Parliament whose 751 members are elected directly and have no ability to propose legislation and has limited control over the budget. You currently have civil servants in Greece retiring at age 55 on 90% pension whereas the Germans retire at 67 on nowhere near as much and any attempt to homogenize the regulations will be opposed by those who stand to lose. Add to this, the poor economy in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece and you get the wealthy countries like France and Germany left to carry the load. No country is its own master - the initial push for Brexit came from the government wanting to eliminate the tax on feminine hygiene products but they were not allowed to do that as members of the EU.
Mr Trick
Scooby
And whose to say they shouldn't be attacked? I'm in favour of peaceful constructive debate. Much of the criticism with Blair was the sense he dragged us into a conflict with a lack of evidence to justify it.
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
Yeah why would anyone have anything bad to say about a potential war criminal and a pathological liar 😕
brinkster130
Riley's BFF
Yes, drinking age is 21 which is odd. I wouldn't mind if everything shifted back to age 21. I personally think there should be some consistency on when someone legally is an adult. I don't think it makes sense that you can own property, vote, drive, pay taxes, marry, go off to war, and yet you're too irresponsible to drink.
And I also think it's interesting when this topic comes up. In the US the younger voting ages are the least likely to vote anyways so I personally don't see how lowering the age would change much. I don't see a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds running to the polls after school. Although, there probably would be some teachers who would give students extra credit for bringing proof the voted...
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
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I find the attitude towards old people rather disturbing. As if they haven’t invested in and helped build the society they’re voting in. As if many of them don’t have kids or grandkids they want the best possible future for. Being ”on your way out ” doesnt mean your vote is invalid or somehow less significant than a younger persons.
@WillowFromBuffy the menarche question was genuine, no need to be so defensive. I find it interesting to hear peoples opinion on it whenever they bring up abortion
@WillowFromBuffy the menarche question was genuine, no need to be so defensive. I find it interesting to hear peoples opinion on it whenever they bring up abortion
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WillowFromBuffy
np. i tried to lay out my pov as best i could
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
I come from a very small place. There's a simple rule. Dont make your self smaller. It will never end well. fix the big or put up with it. Killing the big only ends up with you having a huge corpse to deal with. If you cut yourself off from the body and it goes on living, you tend to die.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
they can only enforce voting if they go into the voting booth with them. No where I'm aware of that is that the way things are unless someone is blind or otherwise handicapped.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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