Question When did Buffy fall in love with Angel? And why?

[BuffyBot22]

About The Prom break up and the reason why Buffy was more heartbroken than past times was simply because at this point her and Angel had had some normalcy in their relationship. Buffy let herself believe in the relationship, believe they weren't doomed, believe they could be normal and happy. When this was shattered, this illusion she had created, she was utterly heartbroken. Deep down it's because she knew he was right. They would never be able to be a normal couple and they were never meant to last. When she let him go in Lover's Walk, she was being realistic. It was hard to let him go, but she was essentially doing to him what he did to her in The Prom.

Also, usually the person being broken up with takes it more harshly than the person doing the dumping even if the break up is inevitable and you both know it is the right thing to do. Which is why I think she appears more devastated in The Prom and he looks more devastated in Lover's Walk.

 

[Guy]

Not trying to be disrespectful,but what exactly is your point? You asked specific questions and you have received actual thought out answers. I could be wrong, but I feel you won't be satisfied until someone says " she never actually loved him!"

Clearly you don't seem to like Angel or the relationship, so will any answer actually satisfy you?

You may not understand or agree with when exactly she loved him or why she did, but the fact remains she did love him and always will. There is no exact moment, and that's usually the case in real life. Sometimes you just love someone and that's it.

I'm sorry, I tend to ramble. I'll try to be clear:

Right now, I get why Buffy loved Angel, and when it happened. My only problem is when exactly that love turned into the all-ecompassing, eternal love that's described in later seasons... But honestly, that just might be my cynical personality speaking. I think you all answered this thread as well as it can be answered. Thank you.🙂

About The Prom break up and the reason why Buffy was more heartbroken than past times was simply because at this point her and Angel had had some normalcy in their relationship. Buffy let herself believe in the relationship, believe they weren't doomed, believe they could be normal and happy. When this was shattered, this illusion she had created, she was utterly heartbroken. Deep down it's because she knew he was right. They would never be able to be a normal couple and they were never meant to last. When she let him go in Lover's Walk, she was being realistic. It was hard to let him go, but she was essentially doing to him what he did to her in The Prom.

Also, usually the person being broken up with takes it more harshly than the person doing the dumping even if the break up is inevitable and you both know it is the right thing to do. Which is why I think she appears more devastated in The Prom and he looks more devastated in Lover's Walk.

I disagree about several of these points, but this is off-topic.

In short: I think that if Buffy was mature enough to break up with Angel in 3x08 and 3x17, not to mention KILL him in 2x22, then she shouldn't have taken it THAT hard when he broke up with her in 3x20.
But this is a discussion for a different thread...

 

[crazysoulless]

Well, I don't know 'Grey's Anatomy'.... But I know this - Buffy already broke up several times before with Angel. Her reaction in 'The Prom' should have been much less extreme, IMO.

Except they didn't really break up until Prom. Gotta mention Grey's again even though you're shockingly unfamiliar with one of the best shows ever (one of my favorite non-scifi programs). When Derek & Meredith were apart, they were still together. It was magnetic. They'd be in the same lift and you could just feel the connection and UST. "You're sexually harassing me." "I'm riding an elevator "

Angel & Buffy have that. "I've gotta walk away from this" followed by a kiss so passionate he barely flinched when her cross necklace seared into his chest. "How am I supposed to stay away from you?" "I can't have you in my life when I'm trying to move on!" "When we're apart, it's easier. It hurts, every day. But I live with it. But now, you're right here and I can actually reach out and----it's more than confusing, it's unbearable." "How am I supposed to go on with my life, knowing what we had, what we could've had?"

Season 3's Lover's Walk was another BtVS s1 Angel. And what happened in Enemies wasn't a break up, she needed a little space so she could process the events that just transpired. It even ends with "You still my girl?" "Always."

 

[BuffyBot22]

After everything they went through, how could it not turn into this all encompassing love?

The presented question was WHY and WHEN. I think us die hard Bangel's answered that to the best of our abilities because the WHEN is difficult in any relationship to answer. And the WHY- there were several factors already mentioned.

Now it has turned into WHEN DID IT TURN INTO ETERNAL LOVE?
It took time and obstacles to get it to this epic/eternal point of love, which I believe most of us also included in our answers.

Maybe you just don't see it because you connect to Spuffy more than Bangel which is completely fine, but I do think we have all tried to answer each of your questions 😉

 

[Bluebird]

I think that if Buffy was mature enough to break up with Angel in 3x08 and 3x17, not to mention KILL him in 2x22, then she shouldn't have taken it THAT hard when he broke up with her in 3x20.

I think there's a big difference in the situations though. The finality of the breakup in The Prom is made clear when Angel says he's leaving town, and not coming back. In Lovers Walk Angel is still recovering and needs Buffy's help, and their romance up to that point in season 3 had been a bit more stilted. Once they started 'dating' again, and up to The Prom, their relationship was more serious and Buffy's thoughts of going to college and having a normal life had given her a false sense of hope. At least that's the way I saw it.

 

[crazysoulless]

All I know is it never ever felt forced. It came from the characters and not a plot neccessity.

Angel Irish married her in Surprise. That moment on the docks was as valid as the post-it wedding between Derek & Meredith on *yes, I'm bringing it up again* Grey's Anatomy. It was just the two of them. They made clear what the rings/post-its symbolized, they kept the objects as a reminder. And then later a full on wedding takes place, although Bangel's was in Angel's dream.

Even in AtS, Doyle's ex-wife was meant to mirror Buffy. That makes Buffy Summers subtextually Angel's ex-wife. They had the kid talk. Exchanged rings. Had a honeymoon. He even marked her. The only permanent scar on Buffy's body is from Angel's fangs.

 

[Guy]

Except they didn't really break up until Prom. Gotta mention Grey's again even though you're shockingly unfamiliar with one of the best shows ever (one of my favorite non-scifi programs). When Derek & Meredith were apart, they were still together. It was magnetic. They'd be in the same lift and you could just feel the connection and UST. "You're sexually harassing me." "I'm riding an elevator "

Oh, you'd be shocked if I told you some of the must-watch shows/movies that I haven't seen... 😉

Angel & Buffy have that. "I've gotta walk away from this" followed by a kiss so passionate he barely flinched when her cross necklace seared into his chest. "How am I supposed to stay away from you?" "I can't have you in my life when I'm trying to move on!" "When we're apart, it's easier. It hurts, every day. But I live with it. But now, you're right here and I can actually reach out and----it's more than confusing, it's unbearable." "How am I supposed to go on with my life, knowing what we had, what we could've had?"

Season 3's Lover's Walk was another BtVS s1 Angel. And what happened in Enemies wasn't a break up, she needed a little space so she could process the events that just transpired. It even ends with "You still my girl?" "Always."

I'll give you 'Enemies'. That scene wasn't REALLY a break-up (Which just makes that scene even more pointless, IMO...)

But 'Lovers Walk' was ABSOLUTELY portrayed as a final ending. Buffy broke up with Angel. Angel didn't accept it, but Buffy still broke up with him, and had no intention of getting back together at the time. And she took that break-up without crying, and without any "I feel like I can't breathe" melodramatics.

Then in 'The Prom', when Angel breaks up with Buffy, Buffy's reaction is somehow much worse than it was in 'Lovers Walk'. At best, this means that Buffy's character deteriorated from 3x08 to 3x20. At worst, she's just out-of-character. I'm leaning toward the latter possibility, myself...

In Lovers Walk Angel is still recovering and needs Buffy's help

Actually, no, he didn't. Buffy literally says:

You don't need me to take care of you anymore. So I'm gonna go.

and their romance up to that point in season 3 had been a bit more stilted. Once they started 'dating' again, and up to The Prom, their relationship was more serious and Buffy's thoughts of going to college and having a normal life had given her a false sense of hope.

I don't know, what's worse - losing something that you missed terribly for a long time and just got back (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'Lovers Walk'), or losing something that you've had for a while (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'The Prom')? Personally, I think both are equal painful.

All I know is it never ever felt forced.

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Angel Irish married her in Surprise. That moment on the docks was as valid as the post-it wedding between Derek & Meredith on *yes, I'm bringing it up again* Grey's Anatomy. It was just the two of them. They made clear what the rings/post-its symbolized, they kept the objects as a reminder. And then later a full on wedding takes place, although Bangel's was in Angel's dream.

Even in AtS, Doyle's ex-wife was meant to mirror Buffy. That makes Buffy Summers subtextually Angel's ex-wife. They had the kid talk. Exchanged rings. Had a honeymoon. He even marked her.

Good points, all!

The only permanent scar on Buffy's body is from Angel's fangs.

You know... Um, this might sound weird and creepy, but I kinda wish that Buffy would have become really scarred over the years. I mean, physically. It would have fit her mental state perfectly. And it doesn't make sense that Angel's bite would scar her when her other injuries wouldn't.
Plus, scarred heroes just look cool.🙂

www.snarksquad.com/2015/02/dollhouse-s02-e01.html

www.tumblr.com/search/eliza%20dushku%20dollhouse

 

[Mylie]

But 'Lovers Walk' was ABSOLUTELY portrayed as a final ending. Buffy broke up with Angel. Angel didn't accept it, but Buffy still broke up with him, and had no intention of getting back together at the time. And she took that break-up without crying, and without any "I feel like I can't breathe" melodramatics.

Then in 'The Prom', when Angel breaks up with Buffy, Buffy's reaction is somehow much worse than it was in 'Lovers Walk'. At best, this means that Buffy's character deteriorated from 3x08 to 3x20. At worst, she's just out-of-character. I'm leaning toward the latter possibility, myself...



Actually, no, he didn't. Buffy literally says:

I don't know, what's worse - losing something that you missed terribly for a long time and just got back (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'Lovers Walk'), or losing something that you've had for a while (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'The Prom')? Personally, I think both are equal painful.

I think the difference is that they were not even together in Lovers Walk. Buffy was still very uncomfortable around him, they didn't really know what their relationship was. She was helping him and they were spending time together but aside from that kiss in Revelations (which Buffy said was a mistake), they were not acting like a couple. Buffy decided to take some distance and DTR because of Spike's speech but it wasn't a break up per sey.

Compare that to Buffy's state of mind in The Prom where they are clearly a couple, and one that Buffy is 100% invested in and you have your answer : Buffy took that break up so hard because they were together, she wasn't in a DTR state of mind at that point, it was clear she wanted that relationship and felt blindsided by Angel's decision.

 

[crazysoulless]

I haven't seen Breaking Bad, so I get it.

SMG is a good enough actress that you feel her scars. She really didn't need any physical reminders. "You don't have a scratch on you" "You're not looking hard enough"

Angel's bite physically scarred her because soulmates.

In Lover's Walk, they weren't dating. They were pretending they could be just friends, lying to themselves. They wanted to be together in every way but tried to stifle and deny it because they thought friendship was the only thing they were allowed to have without risking their lives and the fate of the world.

In Prom, they were officially boyfriend & girlfriend again. They were kissing and falling asleep next to each other in bed and waking up beside each other and planning a future together.

I don't think the break in Enemies was pointless because it was Buffy realizing Angel does have Angelus in him. And just how much it hurts her to see him with another girl. Look at Buffy's reaction in Sanctuary when it looks like he was in the middle of hooking up with Faith and how by the end of the episode that's the main thing she wanted to explain to him. How it felt seeing them together and that he excluded her from everything. But since he just found out from Faith that Buffy had a new man, he couldn't see how much she still wanted to be with him.

 

[Guy]

I think the difference is that they were not even together in Lovers Walk. Buffy was still very uncomfortable around him, they didn't really know what their relationship was. She was helping him and they were spending time together but aside from that kiss in Revelations (which Buffy said was a mistake), they were not acting like a couple. Buffy decided to take some distance and DTR because of Spike's speech but it wasn't a break up per sey.

Compare that to Buffy's state of mind in The Prom where they are clearly a couple, and one that Buffy is 100% invested in and you have your answer : Buffy took that break up so hard because they were together, she wasn't in a DTR state of mind at that point, it was clear she wanted that relationship and felt blindsided by Angel's decision.

First of all: Even if Buffy and Angel weren't REALLY together before 'Lovers Walk', that episode still showed Buffy being able to break up with Angel for good. She made the decision to leave him for good, and she had no intention of ever getting back together with him at that point. And she did that soon after getting him back from death. It was basically 'Becoming' all over again. I don't see how that should be any less painful than the break-up in 'The Prom' - like I said, losing something that you just got back is just as painful as losing something that you had for a while, if not more.

Second of all - even if it's in-character for Buffy, it still shows her character deteriorating: In the beginning of season 3 Buffy was strong enough to do the right thing and break up with Angel; In the end of season 3 she was NOT strong enough to do it.

I haven't seen Breaking Bad, so I get it.

Ooh, that one's awesome! One of the best shows ever!

SMG is a good enough actress that you feel her scars. She really didn't need any physical reminders. "You don't have a scratch on you" "You're not looking hard enough"

Well, yeah, but scars are still cool. 😀 And they'd fit the theme.

Angel's bite physically scarred her because soulmates.

I get the symbolism, but it still doesn't make sense in-universe.

I don't think the break in Enemies was pointless because it was Buffy realizing Angel does have Angelus in him.

If it's about Buffy realizing that Angel had a dark side, then it's pointless, because season 2 already did that.

If it's about Buffy realizing that Angel is not completely separate from Angelus, then it's also completely pointless, since that never factors into their relationship again. In the following episode, Buffy doesn't talk about Angel's Angelus-ness, she talks about Angel kissing Faith.

And just how much it hurts her to see him with another girl. Look at Buffy's reaction in Sanctuary when it looks like he was in the middle of hooking up with Faith and how by the end of the episode that's the main thing she wanted to explain to him. How it felt seeing them together and that he excluded her from everything. But since he just found out from Faith that Buffy had a new man, he couldn't see how much she still wanted to be with him.

That IS a legitimate point that 'Enemies' makes. It's just not a point that I like.😡

I love the complexities of the Buffy-Angel-Faith relationship, but NOT as a love triangle. The love-triangle stuff (in 'Enemies', in 'Earshot', in 'Sanctuary', etc) always felt annoying, cheesy, and soapy to me. Love triangles in general are rarely good stories.

 

[Mylie]

First of all: Even if Buffy and Angel weren't REALLY together before 'Lovers Walk', that episode still showed Buffy being able to break up with Angel for good. She made the decision to leave him for good, and she had no intention of ever getting back together with him at that point. And she did that soon after getting him back from death. It was basically 'Becoming' all over again. I don't see how that should be any less painful than the break-up in 'The Prom' - like I said, losing something that you just got back is just as painful as losing something that you had for a while, if not more.

Second of all - even if it's in-character for Buffy, it still shows her character deteriorating: In the beginning of season 3 Buffy was strong enough to do the right thing and break up with Angel; In the end of season 3 she was NOT strong enough to do it.

But that is you, it's different for everyone. Personally, I would prefer losing something that I just got back than losing something I've had for a while and that I forgot what it was like to not have.

Also, I still believe that she didn't have him at that point. They were not together, she was not even sure that she would have him in her life after he got better. Why do you think she asked him if she should leave Sunnydale in that same episode? And when he told her she should go, she replied that it's not like she has anything keeping her in Sunnydale. That line was clearly about Angel. So for Buffy, she didn't have him. It was all so uncertain and awkward. Choices and The Prom was them at their most couple-y since season 2. It's a very different relationship than early season 3 and one that Buffy doesn't have any doubts about. Surely, you must see the difference in how Buffy views the relationship between those 2 periods of time? And if we're going with your comparison : I think it's easier to lose something that you didn't even really have and still have reservations about then something that you put your whole heart into and thought was going to last forever.

 

[Guy]

But that is you, it's different for everyone. Personally, I would prefer losing something that I just got back than losing something I've had for a while and that I forgot what it was like to not have.

Also, I still believe that she didn't have him at that point. They were not together, she was not even sure that she would have him in her life after he got better. Why do you think she asked him if she should leave Sunnydale in that same episode? And when he told her she should go, she replied that it's not like she has anything keeping her in Sunnydale. That line was clearly about Angel. So for Buffy, she didn't have him. It was all so uncertain and awkward. Choices and The Prom was them at their most couple-y since season 2. It's a very different relationship than early season 3 and one that Buffy doesn't have any doubts about. Surely, you must see the difference in how Buffy views the relationship between those 2 periods of time? And if we're going with your comparison : I think it's easier to lose something that you didn't even really have and still have reservations about then something that you put your whole heart into and thought was going to last forever.

Those are good points, but the scene still doesn't work for me.

I guess I just don't understand why Buffy ever got her hopes up in the first place. In 'Lovers Walk', she knew that their relationship can't last, and acted accordingly. Then, in 'Amends', she got closer to Angel again because he was being all suicidal, which, okay, I get that. But after that, Buffy and Angel got closer again romantically, and Buffy seemed to forget that their relationship is doomed for some reason. I just don't see why she would change her mind on this - her relationship with Angel was impossible in 3x08, and it was still impossible in 3x20. I don't understand why Buffy got the delusion that they could be together. @POTN summed up my feelings about it pretty well:

"Somehow, Buffy un-learns a lesson she has already learned twice".
"That idea is that we may not have a choice in who we love, but we always have a choice in who we allow in our lives. Unfortunately, that idea gets lost here, in a scene that cedes all of Buffy's power over to Angel, and drives me completely insane."

SMG can ALWAYS make me cry, but in 'The Prom', Buffy's grief just makes me roll my eyes, because Buffy's reason for that grief feels completely artificial. Buffy already KNEW that she can't be with Angel. Their break-up 'The Prom' just feels like a cheap tear-jerker, a re-run, an attempt to squeeze a little more drama out of a storyline that already played out. It's the kind of stuff that eventually caused me to stop watching 'The Vampire Diaries' - artificial, fake drama.

 

[Mylie]

I've seen that video and I understand why people are bothered by this. I can't really give you a reason as to why Buffy forgot the relationship was doomed other than she wanted to. It personally didn't bother me (perhaps because of my bias) and I found that human. People learn things, change their minds and go back and forth, it's never a linear process even if I understand why we want that when it comes to fiction. And you know, sometimes I'm trying to make sense of Buffy's actions in season 6 and I just have to accept that there's no reasonable reason. People learn and unlearn stuff. Even in season 6, Buffy did that many times with Spike. It bothers me more there and I imagine it bothers you more here because you don't care for Bangel.

 

[Bluebird]

↑
In Lovers Walk Angel is still recovering and needs Buffy's help



Actually, no, he didn't. Buffy literally says:

You don't need me to take care of you anymore. So I'm gonna go.

I'll rephrase it - up to that point. Don't worry, my memory is just fine.

I don't know, what's worse - losing something that you missed terribly for a long time and just got back (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'Lovers Walk'), or losing something that you've had for a while (which was Buffy's situation with Angel in 'The Prom')? Personally, I think both are equal painful.

It seems like for Buffy, for her personally, she took it harder by having a more involved relationship then leaving. Since that's what we see on screen.

To be fair, I think the writing could have been better but still have that emotional theme. Marti Noxon's writing can be so melodramatic at times. A bit Dawson Creek.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I see a clear difference in the break ups from Lover's Walk and from The Prom. In Lover's Walk they aren't even a real couple, she is just helping him since he has come back from hell. They are trying to be friends, but what Spike says really hits home with her so she walks away because she knows they aren't friends, and that what they are doing is going to turn into something more, something painful.
Well, clearly denying logic because she is in love with him they get back together. Now they are a real couple and Angel breaks up with her out of no where. At least that's what it feels like to her. Because by this point they are going to movies, she is sleeping over, they are planning on going to the prom. They are trying to be as normal of a couple as a slayer and vampire with a soul can be. I also think by this point in the series Buffy has accepted that she has an expiration date and that her life is never going to be normal because she will always have to fight demons. So she figures why not be with the person that makes me happy even if he is immortal and cursed. So when he breaks up with her there goes her happiness. Also this time he says he is leaving town for good. It's the end of this break up get back together cycle. There is a finality in this break up that was never there in the previous break ups. In all of the other breaks they were still constantly around each other because of location, demons, apocalypses, etc. Now, he is leaving and not coming back. This will force them to be a part for good.

What baffles me is how anyone could think it makes anymore sense for Buffy to sleep with/date Spike after her relationship with Angel. She already knows vampires are immortal and she is not. Has she learned nothing? Certainly not, but circumstances intervene which leads to her relationship with Spike. However, If Buffy ever had character regression or deterioration it was during the Spuffy seasons not the Bangel ones. I saw all of her actions with Angel as very human but she almost always had personal growth even if she slipped up some.

 

[Guy]

This has been off-topic for a while... This is a discussion for another thread:

Discussion of 3.08 "Lover's Walk" - Aired 11/24/1998 (WB-US)

I replied there.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

No one moment really leaps to mind. Initially, the love angle had me confused too on my first viewing. It's after multiple viewings and after becoming familiar with Buffy's personality and nature (she uses humor as a way to deflate heightening tension and as a way to keep up a defensiveness that is not uncommon in very pretty women, to protect herself from pain, and she's very cautious with her range of intimate emotions and of course her vulnerability hides behind a lot of "pep") that I begun to understand that her falling deeply in love was partly behind the careful exterior she put up. Also, Buffy shows her love in different and not-always-obvious ways.

So I understand how some people might not have been convinced that it was the love of the ages, but I believe it was profound and the show did enough to get this across, but only barely. I have seen more convincing portrayals of epic love though, I will say, and the real version of epic love is inimitable in my opinion. It requires an authenticity that acting cannot get right, but only approximate.

In fact, I am not sure many people really know the experience (romantic epic love) firsthand. What I imagine Buffy and Angel to have seems rare in the real world. That's why we talk of it in the way we do. Most varieties of love are like what she had with Riley, or what Xander felt for Anya. Grow on you types of love.

And I want to add quickly that I feel Tara and Willow came across as the highest form of love on the show, to be honest.