Lou said we've reached our limit in the old thread and that if we want to keep discussing Riley we have to create a new one. So I did, I hope that's ok. To follow on from where the last thread was going...
Spike is not a "victim" of any kind. At this point in the series he's an unrepentant, evil, mass murdering demon who's lucky to even be alive after all the things he has done. The word "victim" can not possibly apply to Spike of all creatures at this point in the series.
Torture? He roughed him up when Spike provoked him? That's not "torture." Not only did Spike make personal jabs at Riley and try and provoke an argument with him, he plainly states if the chip was out he'd kill the guy. To his face. You honestly expect Riley to show this "victim" any sort of respect? Please.
You mean a helpless *good* person don't you? Which Oz was? Which Spike wasn't. Comparing Oz and Spike makes absolutely no sense, one is a innocent victim, a good person. A person who's never done anything in the slightest to Riley, has never threatened to kill Riley or his friends and has never hurt humanity at all. The other is an evil demon who has threatened to kill Riley, has threatened to kill his friends, has hurt humanity a great deal and is evil. The idea that Riley should treat soulless Spike and Oz with the same respect is rather laughable. You earn respect and gain respect through your actions.
So really Riley should have dusted Spike then right? After all, this “harmless victim” plotted to break all the Scoobies apart so Buffy would have to fight Adam by herself and be killed? This “harmless victim” stood ideally by whilst Adam held Riley captive and planned to operate on him against his consent? I’d say Spike was a “menace” and therefore, qualified to be destroyed wouldn’t you? He's lucky he wasn't, vampires have died in Sunnydale for a hell of a lot less.
Besides, I wouldn’t be so sure under Buffy’s jurisdiction "torture" is an issue. She tortured the vampire for information in ‘When She Was Bad.’ Your applying human standards to demonic creatures. In the real world Buffy wouldn't have the right to use capital punishment against evil people, but we aren't talking about people, we're talking about *vampires.*
We are remembering that Buffy would come into Spike's crypt and beat the living heck out of him whenever she wanted information right? We are remembering that Buffy casually suggests "going back and killing Spike for the fun of it" to Riley? "Protection" was never a word one could use to describe what Buffy was doing at the time Riley was around. If you remember in 'Intervention' she was disappointed Giles and Xander hadn't dusted Spike in his crypt, "and please let the story have a dusty ending." Riley did nothing to Spike Buffy didn’t do on a regular basis.
You hold Riley to a different higher standard. You dislike him because he “bullies” a monstrous demon but you don’t hate the monstrous demon for slaughtering half of Europe? It’s not even remotely in the same league and yet you’ll dislike Riley for something so minuscule whereas you like and “defend” Spike regardless of how inhumane and immoral he was. Not to mention that you seem to forget Spike wasn't nice to Riley? Bullying doesn't have to be about physical contact ya know? You can verbally bully someone as well. Spike taunted Riley about Buffy not loving him, about Riley being inadequate, about Riley being dull, about Riley being a loser ect. Why on earth do you not dislike Spike for bullying Riley? If you “dislike bullies” then surely Riley shouldn’t be the only character to bare the brunt of your dislike?
The worst thing Riley ever did was let some vampires suck on his blood. That’s it. That’s the worst thing anyone can ever attribute to his character and he’s hated for it.
Spike and Angel have raped, tortured and killed innocent men women and children. Anya has been responsible for the death of thousands, possibly millions, and up until ‘Selfless’ didn’t even care. And yet no one hates any of them, no one faults them for it but they hold Riley to this high moral standard where if he does one single thing out of line they come down on him like a tonne of bricks. Like Angel, Spike and Anya. I do. But don't give them get out of jail free cards and hate on someone like Riley for having legitimate reasons to be mean to them.
Riley was a good guy. He treat people who *deserved* respect with respect, he gave up his entire career and life for Buffy. He completely changed his black and white views around and helped save Oz. He dedicated his life to fighting evil and helping people.
I don't know enough about him in season eight to form an opinion on what's happening with him right now, as they haven't gone into it yet. But what I do know is that everything I've seen of him in the past shows him to be a pretty great guy that is unfairly hated and held to different standards by fans. Even it is revealed he's turned on Buffy in season eight and is working against her, that won't touch any of the good things he did in s4, s5 or s6. When we're discussing those seasons, Riley is a *good man.*
Spike is not a "victim" of any kind. At this point in the series he's an unrepentant, evil, mass murdering demon who's lucky to even be alive after all the things he has done. The word "victim" can not possibly apply to Spike of all creatures at this point in the series.
Torture? He roughed him up when Spike provoked him? That's not "torture." Not only did Spike make personal jabs at Riley and try and provoke an argument with him, he plainly states if the chip was out he'd kill the guy. To his face. You honestly expect Riley to show this "victim" any sort of respect? Please.
You mean a helpless *good* person don't you? Which Oz was? Which Spike wasn't. Comparing Oz and Spike makes absolutely no sense, one is a innocent victim, a good person. A person who's never done anything in the slightest to Riley, has never threatened to kill Riley or his friends and has never hurt humanity at all. The other is an evil demon who has threatened to kill Riley, has threatened to kill his friends, has hurt humanity a great deal and is evil. The idea that Riley should treat soulless Spike and Oz with the same respect is rather laughable. You earn respect and gain respect through your actions.
So really Riley should have dusted Spike then right? After all, this “harmless victim” plotted to break all the Scoobies apart so Buffy would have to fight Adam by herself and be killed? This “harmless victim” stood ideally by whilst Adam held Riley captive and planned to operate on him against his consent? I’d say Spike was a “menace” and therefore, qualified to be destroyed wouldn’t you? He's lucky he wasn't, vampires have died in Sunnydale for a hell of a lot less.
Besides, I wouldn’t be so sure under Buffy’s jurisdiction "torture" is an issue. She tortured the vampire for information in ‘When She Was Bad.’ Your applying human standards to demonic creatures. In the real world Buffy wouldn't have the right to use capital punishment against evil people, but we aren't talking about people, we're talking about *vampires.*
We are remembering that Buffy would come into Spike's crypt and beat the living heck out of him whenever she wanted information right? We are remembering that Buffy casually suggests "going back and killing Spike for the fun of it" to Riley? "Protection" was never a word one could use to describe what Buffy was doing at the time Riley was around. If you remember in 'Intervention' she was disappointed Giles and Xander hadn't dusted Spike in his crypt, "and please let the story have a dusty ending." Riley did nothing to Spike Buffy didn’t do on a regular basis.
You hold Riley to a different higher standard. You dislike him because he “bullies” a monstrous demon but you don’t hate the monstrous demon for slaughtering half of Europe? It’s not even remotely in the same league and yet you’ll dislike Riley for something so minuscule whereas you like and “defend” Spike regardless of how inhumane and immoral he was. Not to mention that you seem to forget Spike wasn't nice to Riley? Bullying doesn't have to be about physical contact ya know? You can verbally bully someone as well. Spike taunted Riley about Buffy not loving him, about Riley being inadequate, about Riley being dull, about Riley being a loser ect. Why on earth do you not dislike Spike for bullying Riley? If you “dislike bullies” then surely Riley shouldn’t be the only character to bare the brunt of your dislike?
The worst thing Riley ever did was let some vampires suck on his blood. That’s it. That’s the worst thing anyone can ever attribute to his character and he’s hated for it.
Spike and Angel have raped, tortured and killed innocent men women and children. Anya has been responsible for the death of thousands, possibly millions, and up until ‘Selfless’ didn’t even care. And yet no one hates any of them, no one faults them for it but they hold Riley to this high moral standard where if he does one single thing out of line they come down on him like a tonne of bricks. Like Angel, Spike and Anya. I do. But don't give them get out of jail free cards and hate on someone like Riley for having legitimate reasons to be mean to them.
Riley was a good guy. He treat people who *deserved* respect with respect, he gave up his entire career and life for Buffy. He completely changed his black and white views around and helped save Oz. He dedicated his life to fighting evil and helping people.
I don't know enough about him in season eight to form an opinion on what's happening with him right now, as they haven't gone into it yet. But what I do know is that everything I've seen of him in the past shows him to be a pretty great guy that is unfairly hated and held to different standards by fans. Even it is revealed he's turned on Buffy in season eight and is working against her, that won't touch any of the good things he did in s4, s5 or s6. When we're discussing those seasons, Riley is a *good man.*
D
DrusillaRox
Right. On. Dude
