Washburne
Protector of the key.
I'm pretty sure he meant Buffy season 8 and Angel season 6 so comics all the way. And that you've already adressed.
Question Why Bangel Doesn't Work For You?
- Thread starter Kean
- Start date
- Status
Willow-Tree
Your Childhood Trauma
Actually, Spuffy is my favorite 'ship. Spike never tries to kill any of Buffy's friends after being a Scooby, but Angel does.
This is true.
Then again that could have been because he was spending far too much time trying to rape Buffy.
Or dealing with that pesky chip.
😉
Cryngle
BA Guardian
Don't see that. Far as I can tell their support for one another and fluff out weighted the bad, despite the seriousness of what transpired between the two and that's what I love about them.
B/S on the other hand: crazy obsessing, violence or well beating the hoo-ha out of one another, attempting to alienate her from her friends, sex... more sex, oodles of sex, break-up and of course rape. All the makings of a lasting relationship. Tipping the scale a little hypocritically aren't we?
S7 was better but it in no way made their relationship anymore endearing to me.
And Spuffy does? Truth is Angel character is owned by another company. Makes it hard to just bring them together. Joss confessed that..but does have future plans for it.
Why do compare Angel with Soulless Spike?
Buffy/Angel was not a perfect relationship, you could say something about that not attacking other pairings.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 26,460
Simply because the vital part of any long-term relationship is sex; its how we connect at the most intimate levels. It's when we stop being two people and become one unit. (butthead: heheh he said unit) the fact that Bangel can never consummate their relationship apart from drastic measures, means it is a 'ship that can never fully grow and develop.
Not all long term relationships are built on the foundation of sex. Consider an elderly couple who have been together for decades; the sex drive decreases with age and there are plenty of couples out there who cease having it once they get to a certain age.
Yet the love between them continues to exist. While I would agree that sex is a vital component, I wouldn't say that it is the vital one.
In fact, I'd say the vital component to a long-term relationship is... love.
Which, as multiple sources confirm, Buffy and Angel had.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Cool article idea. Be sure to post it on here when it is finished. I'd like to read it. 🙂
Disclaimer: I'd like to state that I prefer Spuffy because I think that ship was more interesting - but I do not detest Bangel in any way, shape, or form. They just make me sort of queasy with all their melodrama.
Ok, now to answer question:
Bangel doesn't work for me because I believe Buffy and Angel are wrong for each other from the beginning. That's what made it so interesting (for many people), romantic, and tragic. They did love each other, yes - but they couldn't work together because of obvious reasons. They were doomed from the start. Their relationship couldn't stand the obstacles in the way. It could have never worked with them because Buffy wanted something from him he could never give her, and he wasn't willing to give up his immorality (and by default, his mission, redemption) for her.
P.S. I understand why you don't want another character to come into the answer and I respect that. Unfortunately, some peeps (not myself) think that the reason Bangel doesn't work for them is because they believe Buffy was meant to be with Spike (or Xander, or whoever for that matter). Just sayin' 😉
---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------
Now Kean, I do not want to start a shipper debate I swear, but I'm curious what you think of Buffy's "I love you" to Spike in 'Chosen.' What's your take on that? I'm not sure if I've ever heard your opinion on this. I'm curious.
---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------
Well my friend, many of us believe Buffy when she said she loved Spike. 🙂
Washburne
Protector of the key.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Not loving the sarcasm, my friend. "Far too much time"? Huh? *rolls eyes* He tried to rape her once! And considering the shi**y way she'd treated him, I'm not surprised. He forced himself on her out of desperation. He had loved her for years and she had only emotionally and physically abused him. His behavior in 'Seeing Red' was obviously wrong, but I can see where he was coming from. He was confused about the boundaries of their relationship. Also, he didn't have a soul. He can hardly be held accountable for his actions in full. I doubt you'd hold Angelus responsible for when he raped Drusilla and killed and ate her family in front of her, with a "song in his heart."
white avenger
white avenger
Bumpy the Vampire Slayer: Sarah Michelle Gellar shows off her burgeoning baby belly | Mail Online
Well, I said that she needed a puppy. I just didn't think that she would get a grizzly bear.
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
You're free to believe that. Unfortunately, Spike doesn't. And given Spike's insight and skill at ascertaining the feelings of others, if he doesn't believe her, why should I?
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
The sarcasm was appropriate, given Clemxen's cherrypicking. But I meant no offense. 🙂
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
Once was once too many.
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
It's never understandable or permissible to rape someone, regardless how Spike was treated.
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
Which further underlines the point: it was a self-destructive, violent relationship in which Buffy didn't give a damn about Spike whatsoever.
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
Pardon?
Yes and no. I personally hold Angelus accountable for his actions, just as I hold William the Bloody accountable for his. But Angel and (ensouled) Spike? No.
It was Clem, however, who tried to pin the blame of Angelus's misdeeds on Angel, mentioning that even without a soul, Spike never tried to kill any of Buffy's friends.
That, with all due respect to all parties, doesn't fly.
Joan hunny you know I love you but you seriously, defending Spike's actions in Seeing Red? He tried to rape her once!...world of NO! He should have been dusted for that one attempt! Buffy was a bitch to him but he was a soulless vampire and Spike wasn't exactly an innocent in the whole thing either. He was using her to fill his own fantasies. He has stalked her, hounded her until she was too weak to say no anymore. Do I hold Angel accountable for what he did as Angelus? No...but I don't defend it either. You cannot excuse for a second what Spike tried to do in that bathroom.
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
I think she loved him, but I don't think she was in love with him. I've said many times that I thought Spike was Buffy's best friend in Season 7 and that their friendship was beautiful. I don't deny that they have a bond, never have, never will. However, I don't believe she was in love with him. I don't see how she could kiss Angel with such passion and promise him tomorrow and be in love with Spike at the same time. She had just spent the must emotionally wrought night she had ever spent with Spike and she openly took Angel into her arms. Joss has said that in that final moment in the Hellmouth she loved him, and I believe him...but she wasn't in love, at least not with Spike.
That's just how I see it. I don't mean to offend but I can't see it any other way.
E
Eleftheria
[No message]
white avenger
white avenger
And once more, I will state my regret that the people who love Spike with Buffy don't have a "Spike-us" alter ego to blame all of Spike's sins on. It's very easy to separate Angel from all of the bad things that he did while without the restraints of a soul, including rape and torture.
The people who love Angel with Buffy are never going to abandon their conviction that theirs is the one "true" ship, anymore than those of us who prefer Spike with the Slayer will. I'm quite certain that Joss, if he didn't plan this whole controversy from the beginning, certainly exploited it to the fullest once it was pointed out to him. It is, to quite a few of us, one of the main reasons that we came here in the beginning. It's what makes the show fun and keeps it forever alive. I personally hope that we never get any sort of final answer to the question.
The people who love Angel with Buffy are never going to abandon their conviction that theirs is the one "true" ship, anymore than those of us who prefer Spike with the Slayer will. I'm quite certain that Joss, if he didn't plan this whole controversy from the beginning, certainly exploited it to the fullest once it was pointed out to him. It is, to quite a few of us, one of the main reasons that we came here in the beginning. It's what makes the show fun and keeps it forever alive. I personally hope that we never get any sort of final answer to the question.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
God, I love your posts.
This sums up my skepticism perfectly.
---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------
I'll take this one:
You see, for me, it's a sticky situation. It's all about the double standards. On the one hand, certain "Spuffies" seem to flaunt the fact that Spike fell in love with Buffy "without a soul" and, in the same breath, wish to disregard the atrocities he committed; the attempted rape and so forth.
If Joss is to be believed, if Spike was truly an "evolved" specimen as a vampire (which I believe he is), then he is an anomaly amongst his kind; he clearly can demonstrate love and affection, he can clearly discern right from wrong. You can't cherrypick, accredit him the capacity to love and yet throw up the fact that he didn't have a soul as a means of mitigating his actions.
An alternative is, perhaps, that Spike was merely infatuated with Buffy (until he got his soul).
Angelus and (soulless) Spike are two separate entities. It is widely known throughout the Whedonverse that Angelus was the greatest, cruellest, and most infamous vampire who ever existed. Such was his cruelty that though Spike killed two Slayers, history regarded Angelus as the superior creature.
On paper, I would say that neither Angel nor the ensouled Spike were responsible for the actions of their demonic sides. But if you're going to trumpet Spike as an evolved vampire, a creature of pure evil who has within him the capacity to love, then a case could be made to hold him responsible for such actions.
The tragedy of Angelus is that he was such a creature of evil that he is completely devoid of humanity.
white avenger said:
This is where I will also disagree with you.
As an objective fan, I have no problem with Buffy or Angel "moving on." They both tried other relationships. I believe Buffy was in love with Riley, just as I believe Angel was in love with Cordelia. When Spike prepared to return to Buffy in "Harm's Way", Angel felt neither perturbed nor threatened by such a move, and was demonstrably flippant.
He isn't threatened by Spike when it comes to Buffy. And I do think that, on some level, the relationship between Buffy and Angel is doomed due to the curse and his immortality.
But does the success of the relationship reflect the feelings within? No relationship is perfect, but Angel and Buffy's problems weren't so much personal as it was the result of circumstance; Angel didn't beat her, didn't rape her, she didn't cheat on him. The problems that ultimately caused them to separate were ones that they had no control over.
So what does that mean for this Bangel?
I can accept Buffy and Angel moving on. I found touching moments with Buffy and Spike and Buffy and Riley, as well as Angel and Cordelia and Angel and Nina.
Where I disagree with most of the Spuffies I have seen or read about is Angel's place.
I'm sorry, but to me, Joss has made it perfectly clear that Angel will always have a place in Buffy's heart. Always. She won't just forget about him, she won't stop loving him, regardless of who she's with.
Perhaps if I read more fiction that accepted this simple truth, I would be even more supportive of Spuffy.
🙂
caitaintdead
caiters gonna cait
I thought this wasn't going to turn into a Bangel vs Spuffy debate?!
Sheesh!
Anyway, the reason why Bangel doesn't work for me is because I found it boring to be honest. I can crap on until the end of time about why I don't believe it was as real as something else, but I just didn't find it interesting. It was just boring. Lots of self-involvement, lots of woe is me, lots of boring behavior. I found other ships more interesting because they evolved and changed. Even in Season 7 (Buffy), it seems to be the same old Bangel stuff (apart from a cookie speech).
So, to sum up - it may be real love (how could we ever know anyway?) - but it was boring to watch.
Sheesh!
Anyway, the reason why Bangel doesn't work for me is because I found it boring to be honest. I can crap on until the end of time about why I don't believe it was as real as something else, but I just didn't find it interesting. It was just boring. Lots of self-involvement, lots of woe is me, lots of boring behavior. I found other ships more interesting because they evolved and changed. Even in Season 7 (Buffy), it seems to be the same old Bangel stuff (apart from a cookie speech).
So, to sum up - it may be real love (how could we ever know anyway?) - but it was boring to watch.
Wishing Oceans
[No message]
white avenger
white avenger
Certainly Angel doesn't feel threatened by Spike at the time of "Harm's Way." Angel/Angelus has had nothing but contempt for Spike/William from the moment that he was turned. It was obvious in almost every flashback where they were shown together as well as every "present day" scene the two shared. He felt no threat in Spike trying to find Buffy. If for no other reason, "somewhere in Europe" covers a whole lot of territory. Finding a needle in a haystack would be easy by comparison to locating one little blond Slayer in all of that territory, especially when you consider that every OTHER Slayer on the continent is only going to see him as another candidate for dusting. It wasn't until Spike unexpectedly kicked the crap out of him that Angel ever began to have any respect whatsoever for him.
And certainly Angel will always have a place in Buffy's heart, just as she will always have a place in that dried up little walnut of his. My first love will always have a place in my heart as well. That's how it works with first loves. But that in no way, and I'm sure that you can agree on this, rules out the possibility, indeed the near certainty, that there will be other loves for both of them. Joss wasn't making any great revelation with that statement.
My support in the validity of a Spuffy relationship has far less to do with reading any amount of fan fiction than it does with the simple belief that first loves are never last loves. Even if Buffy and Angel do by chance wind up together, I am certain that there will be several partners for both of them before that happens, and the love that they might share at that time will be completely different from the adolescent infatuation that they shared in Sunnydale. That relationship has run its course. Adult Buffy may fall in love with the man Angel eventually becomes, but if she does, it will be something completely new and different.
anyatara
Scooby
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 2,811
- Age
- 31
*Cannot be bothered to read anyone elses responses*
It's too predictable, and cute. When they're away from each other they're positively depressed and when they're together they seem to make each other have that feeling, anyway. In a way it reminds me of everything I hate about Twilight; all the lovey-dovey Bella/Edward sap. *Shudders* Back on topic. I know Buffy loved him, but she was what, sixteen? I wouldn't have said Buffy was ready to settle down at all, never mind with a vampire. The only one time I even remotely coo at Bangel-ness is in 'I Only Have Eyes For You' and that's not even real love between them. That's a reinactment of something that happened to someone else. I don't see the thrill, really. Oh, and who can forget 'Angel's lame, his hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid.' 🙂
It's too predictable, and cute. When they're away from each other they're positively depressed and when they're together they seem to make each other have that feeling, anyway. In a way it reminds me of everything I hate about Twilight; all the lovey-dovey Bella/Edward sap. *Shudders* Back on topic. I know Buffy loved him, but she was what, sixteen? I wouldn't have said Buffy was ready to settle down at all, never mind with a vampire. The only one time I even remotely coo at Bangel-ness is in 'I Only Have Eyes For You' and that's not even real love between them. That's a reinactment of something that happened to someone else. I don't see the thrill, really. Oh, and who can forget 'Angel's lame, his hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid.' 🙂
My adverse reaction to the events of Seeing Red has everything to do with Buffy, not Spike. I know he was a demon, I know he was evil but other people see him as the "man" he was playing at. Why I hate that moment so much is because Spike was just like any vamp Buffy knew, he had tresspassed on her more than any enemy and she let him free. In fact she was left bruised and beaten on her bathroom floor. This is not Buffy the Vampire Slayer. This is not my Buffy. It crushes me that this was allowed happen with no consequences. The show had a chance to make a real statement here, and it did, but the wrong one.
white avenger
white avenger
Whenever this discussion takes place, we eventually run up against "Seeing Red." I've never liked this episode, and never tried to defend Spike's actions in it. I've never liked the episode. The two people portrayed simply were not the Spike and Buffy that evolved over the previous five years. But if it illustrated anything positive, it very clearly illustrated that Spike most certainly was NOT the typical vampire. What other vampire would, because of his actions here, come to realize that, in order to give Buffy "what she really deserves," he would have to regain his soul? Not the Master. Not Luke. Not Angelus. Not any other vampire that we have ever seen in the entire series. That was the statement being made, and probably the only positive thing about the entire series. And there most certainly were consequences for Spike's actions that day. He died.
The self confident, cocky Big Bad that was William The Bloody, Spike, the Slayer of Slayers, was destroyed in that bathroom as surely as if Buffy had rammed a Stake through his heart. The monster died in that bathroom. A man walked out, and a man came to the realization that, for whatever reasons, he had to regain his soul, and Joss has said on more than one occasion that that was Spike's intention from the very start, never to have his chip removed as we were misled to believe.
And Spike wasn't the only one changed by what happened there. The old Buffy would never have let any vampire walk out of that room. The old Buffy would never have recoiled just from Spike's touch the way that she did in "Beneath You" the next season, or just stood helplessly waiting for a vampire, ANY vampire, to kill her the way she did in "Sleeper," regardless of how many others were holding her. And the old Buffy would never have openly defied her Watcher and slammed the door in his face the way she did in "Lies My Parents Told Me."
This isn't what your thread started out to be, Miss K, and I've contributed as much as anyone else in dragging it off subject, for which I sincerely apologize, and I promise to try very hard not to cause any more distractions here. The question was why Bangel doesn't work for me, not why Spuffy doesn't work for you.
Kean
We're both guilty of derailing this one, don't worry hun. This is all helpful :)
- Status