Question Why Bangel Doesn't Work For You?

[Wishing Oceans]

I think Buffy fell in love with Angel before she even knew that he was a vampire. Although she seemed a little pissed off with him...you know him appearing to her only when there was danger.But she was attracted to him and not just because he was handsome. I know she was young and reasonably immature but the love they shared with Angel was of course a mature thing. And I don't wanna mention all the times that her love for him was more than a flirt/high school thing.

In the beginning she didn't know many things about him...which in my opinion is because of Angel. I mean maybe he wasn't too proud of his past, so he didn't say a lot about himself to her. But that's the thing about soulmate love.She loved him just the way he is. She didn't know a lot about him but maybe she could see his soul. Like he saw her heart the day she was called to be a Slayer.

I don't really see how you can "love" someone without actually knowing them. When you love somone, you just want to overlook any of their faults, and their achievements seem like your achievements. If you don't know the person very well, then I'm not sure how you can do that. Love can also be thought of as a friendship set on fire; A friendship where you like both emotional and physical closeness. I just don't believe in loving someone that you're not friends with.

You don't sound rude honey, don't worry 🙂. That is just my opinion. And i do believe that writers sometimes express weird opinions.Anyway...I never said that spuffy isn't a relationship of trust and deep understandment(in season 7 of course) but for me it was too sudden. I never thought that Spike was meant to be with Buffy. I think it all began with the chip...but that is just my opinion. A lot of factors should be considered when it comes to the spuffy relationship.

Well, since the writers wrote the show, I'm pretty sure that they're right... 😀 And I'm not quite sure how you think it's sudden, but Ok. 🙂

You think that Buffy was saying goodbye to Angel in "Chosen"? IMO she was giving him hope but she just asked him to wait. Wait until she is mature enough to settle down. That is not rejecting. The kiss they exchanged can not be characterised as "friendly".

I suppose there're many interpretations. Yours makes sense, but I still see it as more of Buffy explaining why they shouldn't be together. And, I wouldn't say it's friendly, but I also wouldn't say thet they're still madly in love with each other. I agree with what Buffy said: "It was... A hello."

Angel and Buffy could be friends but they ALWAYS would want much more... we saw that in season 3.Angel was ready to wear the pendant and sacrifice himself for her sake. She couldn't bear to see him dying for a second time.

Maybe. But they can't get more. I think that it was Angel getting ready to wear the amulet for the sake of humanity. Buffy and co was just a bonus. Yeah, I don't believe Buffy on that one. Seeing as a few minutes later she was in bed with/ giving the amulet to Spike, I'm pretty sure that she sent Angel away because she already had her champion: Spike. 😀

And Buffy loves Spike.Yes.She does.That means he earned her trust. Trust is always a problem with Buffy's relationships. But this is not lovers' love in my opinion. In my mind...Buffy can trust Spike,she depends on him. He was there for her when noone understood her and noone knew what she going through after she came back from Heaven. I admire that. It's true friends' love.

That may be true. I still believe that she "love- loved" him. (Parody of like- like 🙂 ) One being in S8, she said she missed the sex they had. I don't think Buffy would be sleeping around with her just friends, now would she? 😀 Also, they're friends, but they have the passion there too. Like, I can't imagine Buffy sleeping in a same tiny cot with any of her "friends." She never did that to Xander, and he was one of her best friends for years. 🙂

 

[Emzzie]

Bangel does not work for me. I dont think in this thread we should be discussing why it DOES. The thread is for people who dont like things in the relationship and come here to discuss it. I'm not going to go over to the "Why Spuffy does not work for you" thread and start defending Spuffy. That thread is not the place for me.
I'm sorry if I sound cold, but I'm so bloody tired of coming on the boards, mentioning a ship in a thread that was not meant to be a war of the ships and getting three replies about why another one is better. It drives me crazy, you can have your opinions, but post them in the right threads. Sorry 🙁 I dont wish to attack anyone. I've just been fuming about that over in my corner for a while.
Anyways, onto why Bangel does not work for me. It does not because Buffy was young. David Boareznez said "It was more of a young love thing". Buffy matured and even though it was obvious that she still loved Angel, she moved on. Buffy was deep in love with Angel at a young age, even if she was mature. she was even obsessed in my opinion. Not saying that the Spike relationship was healthy, but I dont think the Angel one was either.
If anybody tells me I'm wrong I swear to Glory I'll have a bloody fit.

 

[Flannen]

Bangel does not work for me. I dont think in this thread we should be discussing why it DOES. The thread is for people who dont like things in the relationship and come here to discuss it. I'm not going to go over to the "Why Spuffy does not work for you" thread and start defending Spuffy. That thread is not the place for me.
I'm sorry if I sound cold, but I'm so bloody tired of coming on the boards, mentioning a ship in a thread that was not meant to be a war of the ships and getting three replies about why another one is better. It drives me crazy, you can have your opinions, but post them in the right threads. Sorry 🙁 I dont wish to attack anyone. I've just been fuming about that over in my corner for a while.

I see what you mean, but even if you don't do it personally, it does happen in the other threads such as why is Spuffy not your thang. I think one of the reasons why it's becomes difficult for people NOT to respond in defence, in both sorts of threads, is that the other one always gets dragged in, if you see what I mean? It's not just 'I like X because' but 'I like X because Y was so etc and Y was this and Y didn't have that' in some cases. I'm not saying that makes it right, but I think all of us can be a bit guilty of doing it at one time or another.

Anyhow, to stop you exploding in your corner, I'll try hard not to do it from now on. Which will be fine, I'll just not read it from now on! 😛 😉

 

[Emzzie]

I see what you mean, but even if you don't do it personally, it does happen in the other threads such as why is Spuffy not your thang. I think one of the reasons why it's becomes difficult for people NOT to respond in defence, in both sorts of threads, is that the other one always gets dragged in, if you see what I mean? It's not just 'I like X because' but 'I like X because Y was so etc and Y was this and Y didn't have that' in some cases. I'm not saying that makes it right, but I think all of us can be a bit guilty of doing it at one time or another.

Anyhow, to stop you exploding in your corner, I'll try hard not to do it from now on. Which will be fine, I'll just not read it from now on! 😛 😉

haha, yes I'd prefer not to explode! I've got to apologize for that post, I think I flew off the handle! I was just a little frustrated. It was not directed at you hon, just in general. Your posts are always very respectful. They really do that in the Spuffy thread? I've never looked at it. Well, I think its wrong if they do. If they do it there, then I dont see an issue with you doing it here. Its not fair if they can but you cant.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Another reason: I don't see how they can love each other, when they don't trust each other. Lie To Me: "I love you. But I don't think I can trust you." "Maybe you shouldn't do either!"

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

They weren't oficially together in Lie To Me. That was a long time ago. We see them as a couple first time in Halloween, and I think Buffy said that because she was mad, just like that line "When you kiss me I wanna die". Her last connection with normal life she had and wanted again ended up to be something bad, I would be angry too.

 

[Rack]

I think "puppy love" is a little harsh...but I never liked the two together [ducks flying shoes/coffee mugs/paperweights]. This was Buffy's first love--a formative experience in anyone's life, but so rarely do those first loves last. They are stepping stones toward a mature, worldly outlook. The passion, the drama, all terribly intoxicating at the time--and don't get me wrong, I'm a horribly hopeless romantic--but I think you can't really love, or be loved, until you've had your heart broken good and proper at least once. That desperate adolescent love just can't last in the long term.
Also I think it's very important to the arc of Buffy's development as a character that she is patently unable to be in a relationship with anyone--death is her gift, her dharma.

As per Angel, he's got this sad puppy dog approach to Buffy that doesn't reconcile with his Champion status. It's almost like he's rebounding from his years of living in the sewer eating rats, and wants something real and human, but hasn't learned yet that he, too, is chosen for a higher calling. I hold his relationship (that wasn't) with Cordy to be much more believable. They have gone through so much, grown up, and their's is less a destructive passion than a deep companionship of mutual trust and understanding.

also, r.e. Angel: Angel's lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid. [ducks, runs out of room]

 

[Wishing Oceans]

They weren't oficially together in Lie To Me. That was a long time ago. We see them as a couple first time in Halloween, and I think Buffy said that because she was mad, just like that line "When you kiss me I wanna die". Her last connection with normal life she had and wanted again ended up to be something bad, I would be angry too.

Actually, Halloween was one episode BEFORE Lie To Me. So if they were together in Halloween, then they were together in Lie To Me. Although, you're right, they weren't really together then, either. In fact, I'm not sure when they "actually" started dating... Maybe What's My Line pt 2?

 

[Terapsina]

Why Bangel doesn't work for me?

Well if I'm honest then its probably because they have such an Romeo/Juliet love, with starry eyes and soul mate admissions. And what I don't like about it is that they were the ones that decided that they were like that. I mean Angel first saw her as a fifteen year old still as the arrogant cheerleader, and decided that he was in love with her heart. But at that point in Buffy's life she wasn't that good of a person.
Buffy and Angel had a teenage love and there is nothing wrong with that, but afterwords when they were over, they still used that love as an excuse not to have to love again. Just because you loved somebody doesn't mean you aren't allowed to fall in love again, and if they for once were honest they never completely did it. And the reason for that wasn't because their love was that great, but because they continued to tell themselves and everyone around them that that love was so very great.
As characters I love both of them but honestly they bring out the worst in each other, Buffy is always in denial and Angel can think only about her. Together they are selfish and obsessive. In real life that wouldn't be that bad, but as heroes they just cant have that type of love, its just not healthy for the rest of the world.
And yes, I do belie that you should be friends with the one you love and understand one another. Because while they were in love with one another they didn't love each other, at least not as much as they could have if they talked, not stared into each others eyes.
Angels relationship with Cordelia on the other hand was beautiful and could have lasted for the rest of their lives if the higher beings hadn't interfered. Buffy and Spike were equal in every way and they could have had the same if Buffy would have let herself feel something else besides lust and self-hate.
So I don't think they would have ever lasted anywhere else but in some universe where they didn't have the responsibilities they had in cannon. And even the in that case they would already have normal lives and that promise of normal wouldn't seem so important to them.

Anyway I really don't like the relationship between Angel and Buffy, just like I really hate the relationship between Romeo and Juliet. If they hadn't killed themselves I don't think their marriage would have been very happy.

 

[ubi4soft]

Ok, before you all think I have lost my mind, there is a method to this madness. I'm trying to write an article of sorts for an LJ community on (what else?) Bangel. I want to be as objective as possible though. I can list a thousand reasons why I think Bangel works but for those (poor poor) people who don't like or even detest the ship I would appreciate if you could help me out and explain why?

Did you finished your article? Linky, please, just to see how objective you were of course.

 

[TheGrandmaster]

Bangel is wrong because its too perfect. It's so lovey-dovey, kinda makes me sick.

 

[Kean]

Did you finished your article? Linky, please, just to see how objective you were of course.

Sadly no 🙁

Things got all kinds of crazy for me and I never completed it. I plan to though, as soon as I do I'll link. Could be ages though, actually knowing me it will be 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Bangel is wrong because its too perfect. It's so lovey-dovey, kinda makes me sick.

Perfect? What show have you been watching? The only perfect thing is that they both look good, nothing else. So perfect was when he wanted to kill her and all her friends? Or when she actually killed him? Or when he left? Oh yeah, real Disney fairytale. Full of perfectness -.-"

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Perfect? What show have you been watching? The only perfect thing is that they both look good, nothing else. So perfect was when he wanted to kill her and all her friends? Or when she actually killed him? Or when he left? Oh yeah, real Disney fairytale. Full of perfectness -.-"

It's so rare when two people love each other equally. Bangel had that. I think perhaps that is what people mean when they say that the couple was 'perfect.' Unfortunately, love isn't always enough to make a relationship work long-term. People grow up, they change, they re-evaluate their priorities.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

It's so rare when two people love each other equally. Bangel had that. I think perhaps that is what people mean when they say that the couple was 'perfect.' Unfortunately, love isn't always enough to make a relationship work long-term. People grow up, they change, they re-evaluate their priorities.

I don't think it's rare. Love is all around us. Just because of our selfish reasons we don't know how to keep it. And I think Buffy and Angel didn't need a change, but the do need to grow up. And they're still not finished. Well Buffy isn't. But I belive one day, when she finds herself, she going to give Angel a call.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

1. As a character, do you like Angel? Why?

2. What other ships do you align yourself to, if any? Why? (It doesn't have to be a Whedonverse ships...any at all).

3. Do you believe in fate? karma? a higher purpose? or do we make our own fate? Both?

1. Yes, I love Angel as a character. He is my third favorite Buffyverse character next to Buffy and Spike.

I admire Angel's determination, his bravery, his drive to do what's 'right' no matter what the cost. Angel has made mistakes, but he is a true hero. He is very complex, and interesting, and endearing at times. He angers me, and makes me laugh, and in the end, I admire him more for the choices he has made. But above all else, Angel has sacrificed everything and everyone he ever loved for his mission and to help others. That's truly tragic. Angel is a fantastic character.

2. What other pairings do I ship? You mean, with Angel or not? I'll just name my Whedonverse picks, because the list would go on forever if I included my other favorite shows!

AtS: Cangel, Fresley, Spread
Buffy: Tillow, Spangel, Spuffy, Xanya
DH: Sierra/Victor, Mellie/Paul
Firefly: Inara/Mal, Kaylee/Simon

3. Do I believe in fate/karma/or a higher purpose? in RL? No. I'm an atheist, and I believe the universe is chaos, and that there is no plan or destiny for us. Only choice and luck come into play. I don't believe in an overall order to the universe. I believe, mostly, that we choose and create our own fates.

You see, I get this whole 'doomed from the start' thing, but I don't get how you can say that about Buffy/Angel, but not Buffy/Spike.

Sure, Spuffy was doomed considering he died. But he was brought back. In our opinion, that opens up the possibility.

So, Bangel was doomed because Angel was a vampire. This is what we are given to understand while Angel is on BtVS. It isn't until he moves to LA that we begin to understand that Angel himself as large a destiny to fulfil as Buffy does, and its not until season two that we know about the curse. So in that sense, Spike is also a vampire and likely not to run as smoothly as a human relationship.

No, I don't think Bangel was doomed because he was a vampire. I obviously have no issue with Buffy dating a vampire. In fact, I think she deserves to be with someone exceptional, and more than human.
Bangel didn't work because of 1.) the curse and 2.) because dating Buffy interfered with Angel's higher purpose or destiny.

To me, Spike and Buffy were just as doomed from the start. Bufyf used to Spike to make herself feel something; to make herself feel bad not good about herself, which doesn't really bode well does it? Especially as this is the reason frequently given for the events in 'Seeing Red' so surely, that was doomed from the start too?

As someone said in some other thread regarding these two, how a relationship starts does not always dictate how it ends. Spike and Buffy evolved, they changed, and so did the nature of their relationship.
I have 100% faith that Buffy and Spike, if they gave it a shot, could have a happy, loving, healthy and passionate relationship.

I also don't get the argument that Buffy and Angel never developed. Even as a hardcore Bangel I can admit that the Spuffy relationship developed. I just saw it developing it into a loving, solid friendship by the end of season seven, I think that by 'Chosen' they had moved past anything sexual/romantic. So why do a lot of Spuffy's 'stunt' the Bangel relationship?

What people mean by that is that it was love at first sight, whereas Spuffy was a gradual thing.

Spike's quote in 'Lover's Walk' describes the two perfectly. Buffy and Angel were never friends. They fell in love. Well, this is where we disagree my friend. I didn't then and I still don't see a friendship existing between Buffy and Angel. I see her 'cookie dough' speech as keeping her options open, and well, I see his comment that he's "not getting any older" (and in fact, his entire appearance in that ep) as well, fan service. Just my opinion.

And, personally, if it wasn't built to last, then Angel and Buffy would not have continued to have contact with one another or care about what happens to each other after Angel left.

Well, surely they would have kept in contact if they are good friends as you claim, even if they were no longer in love.

The original script for 'Chosen' included Angel telling Buffy about Conner and about how he was in love with Cordelia. The scene wasn't shot because it ran over the time limit. In fact, much was cut from the finale.

I keep in contact with quite a few of my ex-boyfriends, even though I am no longer in love with them or harbor any feelings for them. Just because we still care for each others well being does not mean we are "built to last" 😉

 

[Misty]

Perfect? What show have you been watching? The only perfect thing is that they both look good, nothing else. So perfect was when he wanted to kill her and all her friends? Or when she actually killed him? Or when he left? Oh yeah, real Disney fairytale. Full of perfectness -.-"

I think when people say Bangel is perfect, they probably mean that it's so happy and dandy. Yeah, it wasn't really perfect, but it was kind of too happy and that wasn't interesting to watch.

 

[white avenger]

I think when people say Bangel is perfect, they probably mean that it's so happy and dandy. Yeah, it wasn't really perfect, but it was kind of too happy and that wasn't interesting to watch.

Maybe you saw a different Bangel relationship than I did, but I seem to recall as much if not more tears than laughter, and almost no laughter at all. That in no way implies that Spuffy was a whole lot of laughs and giggles either, but if the thread is about what I saw wrong with Buffy being with Angel, it is, primarily, that they never shared any moments of laughter.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think when people say Bangel is perfect, they probably mean that it's so happy and dandy. Yeah, it wasn't really perfect, but it was kind of too happy and that wasn't interesting to watch.

Oh, hapiness is not good anymore? It's not interesting to watch anymore? God, in what kind of world do we live in?

 

[GrrArghx]

lol what Buffy were you watching because Bangel was not all "happy and dandy" 😛

But if you are comparing it to Spuffy, then I can see why you would think that. We all know Spuffy was way darker than Bangel 😀