Why so much hate on Angel?

[Antho]

Even Buffy can lack empathy when she has to do the good thing because at some point when you are the leader you have to put your emotions aside to make rational decisions.

I see your point and for me an example would be Buffy's speech toward Chloe's death in "Get it done"

 

[Evil Seal]

I'm not a big fan of him on BtVS but they really did a great job in AtS with this character. As you all pointed out, he's flawed but that's the point. Buffy is flawed as well. Every character on those shows has been annoying at times.
As for hating characters, I straight up want to punch my screen whenever I think about Jenny Schecter from The L Word. Never have I hated a character so much. Of course she was supposed to be despised at the end (kinda like everybody was glad when Joffrey died in GoT) but man, I've never felt so much rage towards someone (except one of my teachers once) in my life. Joffrey didn't remotely affect me as much as Jenny f*cking Shecter.
My point is, hatred for a character can be good at times because it means that the cast & crew did their job in communicating something.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I can understand all your point except this one. Maybe my memory is bad but where did Angel lack empathy in Harm's way?

Angel wears a frown throughout the entire episode. He yells at Harmony several times and he ignores all her attempts to please.

An example from the early episodes is his initial refusal to help Doyle against the loan sharks. I don't think Buffy would ever refuse to help a friend (or even a stranger or enemy) in need.

I also see Angel as very empathic especially in the later seasons and with the Connor new family storyline.

Definitely. That is why I describe his sometimes lack of empathy as jarring.
 

Watching The Sopranos I've really come to detest Ralph.

The interesting thing about Sopranos is how there are "good" and "bad" gangsters. Ralph, Richie and Phil are definitely characters that we are supposed to hate. They are so horrible that Tony and the others look nice by comparison. I mean, Ralph gets off by killing strippers.

 

[EarthLogic]

An example from the early episodes is his initial refusal to help Doyle against the loan sharks. I don't think Buffy would ever refuse to help a friend (or even a stranger or enemy) in need.

Are you referring to 'Rm w/ a Vu'? Because he did not in any way refuse to help Doyle. This is what we get in the episode:

Angel: “You’re going to tell me what’s going on?”
Cut to Angel and Doyle talking in the office.
Angel: “You don’t even know who this demon is collecting for.”
Doyle: “All right, look, here’s how it works: I owe some people - other people owe me. I do a favor for some guy and the debt goes away. It’s a system of checks and balances.”
Angel: “And some of your checks didn’t balance.”
Doyle: “Well, it’ll work out. It just takes a little diplomacy – the kind of thing you’re so good at, actually. Say, maybe you wouldn’t mind taking a crack at it?”
Angel with a sigh: “We all have problems. It’s a matter of priorities. And at the moment I’ve got a bigger one then you do.”
Doyle: “Bigger than a Kailiff demon?”
Angel: “Much. I’m thinking you can help me with mine and maybe I can help you with yours.”
Doyle: “I don’t know, man. I mean, what’s your problem, exactly? Because you know, vampire business is..”
Cordy clears her throat: “Hi! (Smiles and waves) I was just wondering if you had any linoleum glue – for if it started curling up all over.”
Angel: “I’ll be there in a minute.”
Cordy turns to go: “Ok.”
Angel to Doyle: “Find her an apartment and I’ll deal with your demon.”

I'm guessing the line you take issue with is “We all have problems. It’s a matter of priorities. And at the moment I’ve got a bigger one then you do.” I don't see how that is refusal. Basically he is saying that Doyle's problem can be easily dealt with (by Angel) whereas Cordelia's invasion of his apartment is the trickier issue. It's also supposed to be funny because it's juxtaposing Doyle's debt-and-death situation with the obviously more trivial Cordy one, but reversing the way they're each treated: Cordy's apartment-wreckage is apparently far scarier than a Kailiff demon! 😀
 

The interesting thing about Sopranos is how there are "good" and "bad" gangsters. Ralph, Richie and Phil are definitely characters that we are supposed to hate. They are so horrible that Tony and the others look nice by comparison. I mean, Ralph gets off by killing strippers.

Yeah, the interesting thing about these types of shows is that they give us characters we're clearly meant to hate. Similarly, you'd be hard put to find anyone with a smidgen of sympathy for Joffrey Baratheon!! (Though maybe there are - I'm not involved in GoT fandom)

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@EarthLogic
I guess it was not as bad as I remembered it, but there are times, especially in s1, where he seems to view his friends as nuisances. The Scooby gang just seems like a much warmer, safer environment. There was always a cough, beach ball or a room in someone's house or cellar you could crash for extended periods of time, at least 😛

 

[thrasherpix]

I'm not a big fan of him on BtVS but they really did a great job in AtS with this character. As you all pointed out, he's flawed but that's the point. Buffy is flawed as well. Every character on those shows has been annoying at times.
As for hating characters, I straight up want to punch my screen whenever I think about Jenny Schecter from The L Word. Never have I hated a character so much. Of course she was supposed to be despised at the end (kinda like everybody was glad when Joffrey died in GoT) but man, I've never felt so much rage towards someone (except one of my teachers once) in my life. Joffrey didn't remotely affect me as much as Jenny f*cking Shecter.
My point is, hatred for a character can be good at times because it means that the cast & crew did their job in communicating something.

I'm going to have to come back to this thread since I'm replying to this specifically now.

I recall watching the last season of The L Word and thinking Jenny was about to be killed, and hating it...because I wanted to be the one to kill her personally (seethes in frustration that I can't enter into that fictional world to do so), and that other character was about to get to Jenny first! 😀😳

I have NEVER felt such hatred for a character before and tend to be a detached storyteller and audience member. I grudgingly had to admire how powerful they made her to me and laughed at my own reaction (but that didn't make the hate go away). (And just to be clear, I have nothing against the actress.)

 

[The Bronze]

There's enough people on the planet that every character that has ever been created will be loved by some and hated by others. People experience fiction from their own individual perspectives shaped by their life experience. So why is Angel hated by some? Might remind people of an ex for example. Or often people recognise qualities of their own they don't like in the character. Plus Angel can be a really gullible muppet at times 😀.

It's absolutely not just Angel. I think I've seen hate and love shown for all the characters on here in the time I've been on the board. It can actually lead to some good threads as long as people are capable of separating reality and fiction.

Also @Taake is spot on. Everyone is entitled to their feelings, whether others agree or not. Hating doesn't even have to be that much of a negative either. You hate people in real life so having a hate figure in a show can add to the realism.

 

[Mylie]

But you don't have to love everything to be a fan. A preference may be that I prefer one season over the other. Hate, in terms of fandom, I view basically as disappointment. Feeling betrayed as a viewer attached to the story, so hate doesn't make you less of a fan, it just makes you a disappointed fan.

This! And it also goes hand in hand with being a fan of something, in my opinion. The opposite of passion is indifference, not hate. I think it only starts being a problem if you end up hating more things than you love about the show.
 

4. His sometimes jarring lack of empathy and general concern for others - Angel can be a great guy, but quite often, he just isn't. There are few characters in the 'verse that irritates me as much as Angel the irritable, broody misanthrope. The quintessential appearance of this character is in Harm's Way, though we see him quite often in early seasons of AtS.

I strongly disagree with this! Angel is one characters who has the most empathy in the verse. Doesn't mean he always is, but he's definitely one of the characters who care the most about others and who listens, etc. And I mean... even Buffy sometimes lacks empathy as can be seen in Beauty and the Beasts and most of s7.

5. The way he is used as a foil to characters such as Spike and James - For those who don't know, a foil is a character that is presented as a contrast to another character. The purpose is to highlight the strengths and flaws of each. Whenever Angel is contrasted with someone else, he is usually shown as being cold and detached. The main example is when James's grief of losing his fellow vampire lover is contrasted with Angel being able to come to terms with Buffy's death.

Spike is clearly not a better person than Angel, but in episodes such as Destiny, Spike is both more compelling and more relatable than Angel is.

I get that point, because I have the same thing but with Spike. Which is why I always try to be careful when I get into comparing the 2 vamps territory because I turn into full on Spike hater and I hate myself when that happens, lol. Those 2 characters being each other's foil doesn't bring out the best in Spike, for me.

As for beating up Riley... well that can be explained by Riley attacking him lol.

 

[RachM]

1. His I-know-what's-best-for-you break up with Buffy - I think this was what cemented the idea of Angel as the person who follows his mind rather than his heart (or tries to, at least). That did not endear me to him. I was really happy when Angel came back from Hell, but maybe he shouldn't have bothered. My biggest grievance her is that it should be Buffy's job to decide what's best for Buffy. If Angel does not want to be with Buffy, that is fine, but he should not be making decisions on her behalf.

There were a lot of factors which went into Angel's decision to break up with Buffy, not least of which is his own self-loathing and his genuine belief that he didn't deserve her or to be with her especially after the events of Season 2 and the danger that he my revert to Angelus and hurt her. He was also pushed to break up with her by Joyce and his intentions were good, if not misguided. I understand fans being a bit put off by his "I want what's best for you" attitude, but that's not everything that went into the breakup. The whole of Season 3 shows how Angel doesn't quite fit into Buffy's world anymore, that his path is diverging from hers and that the fallout of the Angelus period cannot be ignored or brushed aside.

Also, you do realise that Angel had absolutely no control over returning from Hell, right?

2. The way he treated Buffy in Sanctuary - Faith may be the single cruellest villain in the entire Buffyverse. I mean, she is right up there with Angelus. I like that Angel wants to help her, but he let Buffy leave LA thinking her ex-boyfriend cared nothing about all she had suffered.

Really? The single cruellest villain in the Buffyverse? This including Angel, Darla, Drusilla and Spike, all murderous vampires with centuries worth of murder, torture and rape under their belts, the entirety of W&H whose insidious evil includes murdering children, torturing innocent people, corrupting everyone they can and being instrumental in the Apocalypse, Glorificus an insane, evil hellgod who sucked the sanity out of people and relished in it, tortured and murdered whenever she could and was going to unleash Hell on earth, the First who emotionally manipulated people into killing themselves, sent an armies out to murder young girls and was going to end the world, and you want to claim that Faith who, yes, went completely off the dark end but who felt such crippling remorse for her crimes that she tried to kill herself, is the "single cruellest villain in the entire Buffyverse"? I mean, I get not liking a character, especially a morally grey character such as Faith, but blindly using extreme hyperbole to conflate her actions while ignoring blatant facts is irrational and shows the ridiculousness of your argument. Hate Faith all you want but at least stick to the facts when it comes to having these types of debates. Throwing around hyperbole like that makes it hard to take your points seriously.

That being said, I'm not a massive fan of Angel's treatment of Buffy in that episode however I understand where he is coming from. Buffy came seeking vengeance not justice, she wasn't looking to punish Faith, she was looking to hurt her. Angel was trying to steer Faith down the path of remorse and help her see the error of her ways, to help her seek redemption and accept punishment for her crimes and Buffy's appearance jeopardizes that and risked sending Faith back down the path of darkness, where she may have hurt more people.

3. Having sex with Darla in Reprise - I have never hated Angel more than this scene and the scene that starts the next episode. It is very violent. He scares Darla by throwing her through a door, before picking her up and start kissing her again. He is deliberately attempting to remove his own soul.

Do you also hate Darla for raping an unconscious Angel in the early stages of Season 2? If not, that's somewhat hypocritical. Also, it doesn't take into account Angel and Darla's dynamic and the nature of their relationship.

Darla and Angel's entire relationship is an interplay of sex and violence. They are sadistic creatures, even with souls. There are numerous references to the two of them torturing one another, enacting violence one each other and getting off on it. Angel does not victimise Darla in the scene in question, much like she does not victimise him in the early part of Season 2. These are two beings who, even with souls, have very sadistic streaks, and their relationship when they were both non-souled vampires absolutely involved interplay of sex and violence, rape, torture and physical harm which would, in other circumstances, be classed as “abuse” but for Angel and Darla is what they get off on and enjoy. This aspect to their relationship makes it very hard to distinguish when they are truly victimizing one another, or if they ever do at all. I understand being uncomfortable by the violence displayed by the scene in question, but I don't think it should be counted as a strike against Angel. When it comes to Angel and Darla, I am reluctant to say that they have ever victimized or abused one another, at least in the traditional sense of either word, given how much of their relationship relied on sadism, abuse, rape and torture and how both genuinely enjoyed inflicting and receiving.

Additionally, Angel is actually not trying to lose his soul, this is a case of misdirection, similar to when Spike goes to get his soul but it's played as him wanting to get the chip removed.

In order for Angel to lose his soul two things must happen. He must achieve perfect happiness and then have sex. Perfect happiness is what triggers the loss of his soul, and sex is the final sever. When Angel has sex with Buffy in Surprise, he loses his soul because, to Angel, Buffy is perfect happiness. He needs nothing else to be perfectly happy when he is with her, so when they finally do sleep together, it causes the loss of his soul.

In Season 4, when the fake scenario is planted in Angel’s mind to trigger the loss of his soul, he must reconcile with his son, receive an apology from Wes, see Fred and Gunn mend their relationship and have Cordy admit her feelings for him. He must achieve perfect happiness by having everything in his life fall into place then, in the fantasy, his sleeps with Cordy, once again causing the loss of his soul through the combination of perfect happiness and sex.

When Angel sleeps with Darla in the scene in question, he is at his lowest point. He is broken and empty, and he has given up on himself and the world. He is about as far from perfect happiness as he can get, teetering on the edge of darkness. There was no way he was going to achieve perfect happiness with Darla, and he knew that because he knows himself and her so well, so when he slept with her, he was never intending to lose his soul.

However, the thing that bothers me the most has to do with my quite conservative views on sex. You don't have to love someone to boink them. You don't even have to know them very well. I once realised I had forgotten someone's name. However, at the very least, you should like them and try your best to treat them well. When Angel wakes up and has his great epiphany, he appears gloating.

Sure, because this is the face of a man who's "gloating":

Angel gets to go back to the good guys and be a hero. Darla does not have that option, and I don't see a shred of vampire-solidarity in Angel. Uncle Tom, indeed.

Why would he show any solidarity with Darla? She's a soulless monster at this point. We've seen him show solidarity with her before, when they're on equal ground ie. both have souls or both are evil vampires. But when they're on opposite sides, why would he show solidarity? Also, Darla doesn't want the option of being the good guy. She doesn't need the option of being a good guy. Remember, at this point she is trying to strip Angel of his soul. She wants him evil. Why would he do anything for her? I don't understand your reasoning here.

4. His sometimes jarring lack of empathy and general concern for others - Angel can be a great guy, but quite often, he just isn't. There are few characters in the 'verse that irritates me as much as Angel the irritable, broody misanthrope. The quintessential appearance of this character is in Harm's Way, though we see him quite often in early seasons of AtS.

If Angel had no empathy, he wouldn't have spent his entire series trying to help people. He wouldn't have offered to trade his life for Darla's. He wouldn't have given Wes, Cordy, Doyle or Gunn jobs. He wouldn't have tried to sway Gunn away from his dangerous lifestyle. He wouldn't have been out of his mind with grief and rage when Wes and Cordy were in the hospital at the end of Season 1. He wouldn't have stopped Kate from killing herself. He wouldn't have given Lindsay the chance to walk away from Wolfram & Hart and join them. He wouldn't have tried to save the inhabitants of the Hyperion Hotel from the soul-sucking demon. He wouldn't have cared enough to find Judy and apologise to her and grant her forgiveness. He wouldn't have acknowledged that Holtz deserved his revenge.

Sure, he showed little empathy to Harmony. But she was a soulless vampire whom they had no reason to believe would do anything but betray or harm them (which, btw, she did). And it wasn't just Angel who didn't show her any empathy. Gunn and Wes are exactly the same. The only person who shows her empathy is Cordy and that's only because they were friends in high school. A lack of empathy towards a soulless monster does not mean a lack of empathy in general.

5. The way he is used as a foil to characters such as Spike and James - For those who don't know, a foil is a character that is presented as a contrast to another character. The purpose is to highlight the strengths and flaws of each. Whenever Angel is contrasted with someone else, he is usually shown as being cold and detached. The main example is when James's grief of losing his fellow vampire lover is contrasted with Angel being able to come to terms with Buffy's death.

Actually, the comparison to James was not to show that Angel was "cold and detached" but to emphasise that his love for Buffy was not obsessive or the only thing in his world. It was supposed to demonstrate that James' love was unhealthy and consuming, meanwhile Angel grieved for Buffy then moved forward, as well he should. Cordelia's speech sums it up beautifully:

"If you were a loser, if you were some sick obsessed vampire, you'd go to a Snod demon, or whatever, and get your heart cut out. But you're not! You're a living, breathing... Well, living, anyway - good guy, whose still fighting and trying to help people, and that's not betraying her, that's honoring her."

6. The speech in Helpless - The idea of Angel guarding Buffy's innocence from the harsh realities of the world is such a major turn off for me. Buffy needs help. She needs her friends, a mentor and a boyfriend/life partner. What she does not need is some fatherly guardian to protect her inner child.

What in the name of frak is this? I'm sorry, but are you referring to this speech:

"Cause I could see your heart. (gets up) You held it before you for everyone to see. (walks to her) And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own."

Because if you are, I see no reference to Buffy's "innocence". He's merely expressing the wish that she not get hurt, that she had a big heart, which she wore on her sleeve, and he was worried someone would damage that heart. He's certainly not talking about "protecting her innocence". To quote Oz, I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text.

Angel tells Buffy to find a nice normal guy she can have a life and babies with. Buffy does as she's told, and Angel shows up and beats the guy up. What gives?

Well, yeah, Angel can be a putz and he's not above jealousy. But he doesn't try to end her relationship or get in between her and Riley. Also, I'm pretty sure Riley starts the fight. But yeah, Angel is a douche sometimes and The Yoko Factor is def one of those times.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I see a lot of people don't consider him a hero because he has a soul and made mistakes.

I don't consider him a hero, but not for the reasons you listed. Well, partly because of the mistakes, but that's more of the minor part of it. Angel tends to fall up.
 

Sure, because this is the face of a man who's "gloating":

Looks more like the face of a man who's constipated.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I find it incredibly frustrating when people take positions on Angel's character and they haven't even seen his show or have only seen it like once a long time ago.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I find it incredibly frustrating when people take positions on Angel's character and they haven't even seen his show or have only seen it like once a long time ago.

Oh I know! me too!

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I was going to write a response to Mylie, but then I was dropped with this massive post by Rachel, which was a little too much for me to handle. I picked out a few bits to respond to.

Just to clarify, the purpose of this thread is to discuss why some people hate Angel. I have a lot of positive things to say about Angel, but I'll save them for later.I have tried to describe why my feelings towards him are sometimes less than positive. I am an emotional person and hate is an emotion. Therefore, I have not made an effort to be particularly fair. That being said, feel free to call me out on anything I say. I love a discussion.

They are sadistic creatures, even with souls.

I've seen you write this before. I don't really know where you are coming from. Angel may infuriate me sometimes, but I cannot remember him ever being truly cruel.

If Angel had no empathy, he wouldn't have spent his entire series trying to help people.

I wrote 'sometimes jarring lack of empathy'. Jarring, because it is shocking, because he is usually quite nice.

Actually, the comparison to James was not to show that Angel was "cold and detached" but to emphasise that his love for Buffy was not obsessive or the only thing in his world. It was supposed to demonstrate that James' love was unhealthy and consuming, meanwhile Angel grieved for Buffy then moved forward, as well he should. Cordelia's speech sums it up beautifully:

"If you were a loser, if you were some sick obsessed vampire, you'd go to a Snod demon, or whatever, and get your heart cut out. But you're not! You're a living, breathing... Well, living, anyway - good guy, whose still fighting and trying to help people, and that's not betraying her, that's honoring her."

You are absolutely right. The problem is: I am a bleeding heart romantic. I don't want to be told that moving on can be easy.

The big episode that really puts Angel and Spike side by side is Destiny. Spike is an idiot in Destiny. His naive ideas about love and his possessive attitude towards Drusilla should be disturbing, but I cannot help feeling sorry for him. In this episode in particular, Angel's existentialist, relativist lostness is decidedly less attractive than Spike's anger and heartache.

Why would he show any solidarity with Darla? She's a soulless monster at this point.

No rational reason. It just would endear me more to him. Willow could not help feel connected to her vampire self, though sending her back to the Wishverse was a stupid idea.

Sure, he showed little empathy to Harmony. But she was a soulless vampire whom they had no reason to believe would do anything but betray or harm them (which, btw, she did). And it wasn't just Angel who didn't show her any empathy. Gunn and Wes are exactly the same. The only person who shows her empathy is Cordy and that's only because they were friends in high school. A lack of empathy towards a soulless monster does not mean a lack of empathy in general.

This is something I absolutely hate. Harmony being soulless is no excuse for being mean to her. I hate it so much when people take out their issues on people whom they feel deserve it. Of course, no one treats Harmony worse than Spike does.

Additionally, Angel is actually not trying to lose his soul, this is a case of misdirection, similar to when Spike goes to get his soul but it's played as him wanting to get the chip removed.

In order for Angel to lose his soul two things must happen. He must achieve perfect happiness and then have sex. Perfect happiness is what triggers the loss of his soul, and sex is the final sever. When Angel has sex with Buffy in Surprise, he loses his soul because, to Angel, Buffy is perfect happiness. He needs nothing else to be perfectly happy when he is with her, so when they finally do sleep together, it causes the loss of his soul.

In Season 4, when the fake scenario is planted in Angel’s mind to trigger the loss of his soul, he must reconcile with his son, receive an apology from Wes, see Fred and Gunn mend their relationship and have Cordy admit her feelings for him. He must achieve perfect happiness by having everything in his life fall into place then, in the fantasy, his sleeps with Cordy, once again causing the loss of his soul through the combination of perfect happiness and sex.

When Angel sleeps with Darla in the scene in question, he is at his lowest point. He is broken and empty, and he has given up on himself and the world. He is about as far from perfect happiness as he can get, teetering on the edge of darkness. There was no way he was going to achieve perfect happiness with Darla, and he knew that because he knows himself and her so well, so when he slept with her, he was never intending to lose his soul.

... but Angel does not know all this. Up until this point, everyone assumed 'perfect happiness' meant orgasm. He is clearly surprised to find his soul intact.

Even if he was not planning to loose his soul, I would hardly feel any less angry with him.
 
I am sorry @Mylie . I was just going to clarify that I did not mean to say Angel lacked empathy all the time, just sometimes. And that I do not think James and Spike are better people than Angel, they are just easier to feel sorry for in the episodes where they are contrasted against each other. And finally, I got the definite impression that Angel was quite happy to go a round with Riley 😛

 

[Mylie]

I am sorry @Mylie . I was just going to clarify that I did not mean to say Angel lacked empathy all the time, just sometimes.

Ok, I am fine with this then.

And that I do not think James and Spike are better people than Angel, they are just easier to feel sorry for in the episodes where they are contrasted against each other.

I definitely get this. Based on all the posts I've read from you, it is clear what you respond to in a character and you've helped me a great deal into understanding Spike more and why people are so drawn to him. I think we're just on opposite sides of the spectrum here because where you relate to Spike, I relate to Angel. So that point, I 100% get.

And finally, I got the definite impression that Angel was quite happy to go a round with Riley 😛

Yes, it was probably a good outlet for his frustrations lol. He was being a bit petty but I still enjoyed it a lot, simply because Riley pissed me off more than Angel in that scene (and the way he handled things with Buffy) so I usually give Angel a pass because of that.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

There is hate on Angel, on Spike, on season 7, on Willow, on Xander, on Kennedy.......

Kennedy deserves the hate though (it's the only thing she's actually earned rather than having it just handed to her).

As to why people hate Angel, my guess is that it's probably due to an unfair comparison to Spike since they're both vampires with a soul who had a relationship with Buffy etc. Spike is the more dynamic personality, likewise with Angelus, whereas Angel is a lot more restrained which can come across as being dull and boring.

Angel's main shtick is guilt but after a while his "woe with me" demeanour starts to get old. Angel definitely improves as a character once he gets his own show and is allowed to spread his wings a little but in the first 3 seasons of Buffy, he does seem stuck in one mind set for the majority of the time.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

the purpose of this thread is to discuss why some people hate Angel

I feel like the purpose of the thread is to call in to question why people hate on Angel and was not meant to be a place to share stories about why people hate Angel, although I guess by stating that you don't understand the hate on the character you beg the response as to why people like you have hatred towards the character.... and therefore it becomes a hate fest.

Willow likes Angel... why can't you??? 😛

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I feel like the purpose of the thread is to call in to question why people hate on Angel and was not meant to be a place to share stories about why people hate Angel, although I guess by stating that you don't understand the hate on the character you beg the response as to why people like you have hatred towards the character.... and therefore it becomes a hate fest.

So here are my questions?

If you hate Angel why is that?
If you love Angel why do you think there is so much hate on him (beside the Bangel vs Spuffy thing that is obvious)?

Not to be pedantic, but the OP asks people who hate Angel to explain why they hate him and people who love Angel to explain why they think other people might hate him. I have a foot in both camps, sorta speak, so I decided to list the grievances I have with the character.

I don't think I said I don't understand why people hate Angel. The length of my list suggest I do, i think.

I've laid my heart bare for all to see it. Dissect it and tear it apart as you please. It is my gift to you. If you want to defend Angel in discussions, it can be useful to know why some people don't like him.

If someone wants to discuss one of my points or asks me to elaborate, then I will be more than happy to do that. However, I am not really looking for a debate this time around, so I will probably just rephrase what I have already said.

Willow likes Angel... why can't you??? 😛

Hey, that's cheating 😛

I do love Angel. I have tried to be as specific as I can in pointing out instances that make me angry with him. Let me just say, I did not try to be fair.

Is there any current threads for talking about why one loves Angel? Perhaps I should take a trip there to make amends.

 

[Antho]

Is there any current threads for talking about why one loves Angel? Perhaps I should take a trip there to make amends.

Ask and you will be serve 😉 Why we love Angel

 

[buffy1990]

Oh oh oh oh oh! Christmas came early this year 😀

So, I have loads of feelings about Angel. Sometimes I love him, sometimes I am indifferent and sometimes I absolutely hate him. He is an integral part of the Buffyverse mythology, I love the Bangel story and he is in many ways one of the most inspiring characters in the 'verse. However, in no particular order, here is my list of reasons for hating Angel. The list may seem a bit chaotic and random. He is the character in the Buffyverse that appears in the most episodes and many of this points are quite personal.

1. His I-know-what's-best-for-you break up with Buffy - I think this was what cemented the idea of Angel as the person who follows his mind rather than his heart (or tries to, at least). That did not endear me to him. I was really happy when Angel came back from Hell, but maybe he shouldn't have bothered. My biggest grievance her is that it should be Buffy's job to decide what's best for Buffy. If Angel does not want to be with Buffy, that is fine, but he should not be making decisions on her behalf.

2. The way he treated Buffy in Sanctuary - Faith may be the single cruellest villain in the entire Buffyverse. I mean, she is right up there with Angelus. I like that Angel wants to help her, but he let Buffy leave LA thinking her ex-boyfriend cared nothing about all she had suffered.

3. Having sex with Darla in Reprise - I have never hated Angel more than this scene and the scene that starts the next episode. It is very violent. He scares Darla by throwing her through a door, before picking her up and start kissing her again. He is deliberately attempting to remove his own soul.

However, the thing that bothers me the most has to do with my quite conservative views on sex. You don't have to love someone to boink them. You don't even have to know them very well. I once realised I had forgotten someone's name. However, at the very least, you should like them and try your best to treat them well. When Angel wakes up and has his great epiphany, he appears gloating. Angel gets to go back to the good guys and be a hero. Darla does not have that option, and I don't see a shred of vampire-solidarity in Angel. Uncle Tom, indeed.

4. His sometimes jarring lack of empathy and general concern for others - Angel can be a great guy, but quite often, he just isn't. There are few characters in the 'verse that irritates me as much as Angel the irritable, broody misanthrope. The quintessential appearance of this character is in Harm's Way, though we see him quite often in early seasons of AtS.

5. The way he is used as a foil to characters such as Spike and James - For those who don't know, a foil is a character that is presented as a contrast to another character. The purpose is to highlight the strengths and flaws of each. Whenever Angel is contrasted with someone else, he is usually shown as being cold and detached. The main example is when James's grief of losing his fellow vampire lover is contrasted with Angel being able to come to terms with Buffy's death.

Spike is clearly not a better person than Angel, but in episodes such as Destiny, Spike is both more compelling and more relatable than Angel is.

6. The speech in Helpless - The idea of Angel guarding Buffy's innocence from the harsh realities of the world is such a major turn off for me. Buffy needs help. She needs her friends, a mentor and a boyfriend/life partner. What she does not need is some fatherly guardian to protect her inner child.

7. His inconsistency - In the Buffyverse, Angel and Giles are the two main characters who stand for logic and reason, and I hate them both for their constant failure to live up to their own standards. Angel tells Buffy to find a nice normal guy she can have a life and babies with. Buffy does as she's told, and Angel shows up and beats the guy up. What gives?

Sometimes this inconsistency works, because Angel's struggle is to be better than anyone possibly could be. However, sometimes Angel is just so petty that he comes off as hypocritical rather than simply less-than-perfect.


We're just bursting with love, we are 😀

I agree with this. I find Angel to be a mixed bag of emotions and oftentimes I end up annoyed with his actions. I do believe he is a great hero and champions the cause, but he does not always handle his personal relationships well. I just watched Reprise today and was also irritated with his treatment of Darla after he used her for what he thought he wanted. I understand that Darla is a soulless being and has done terrible things, but Angel isn't, and it just irked me a little.

That being said, I like Angel very much. He tries to do what is right and help the helpless, and I admire that. My issue with him is more that I don't find him to be my favorite main character, and tend to prefer him as a side character.

 

[thrasherpix]

So, I am going to ask again. Why the hate ? Why are you here, why do you watch, if you hate the show or any character or season ?

One, I have no problem disliking characters, they add realism. At least for me, when I get downright caustic, it's aimed more at the writers for being lazy, or even worse (the "worse" I don't want to talk about here, just to say it's callous manipulation intentionally done to promote themselves by knowingly hurting others to sell more of their drivel).

Two, I have not seen any episodes from seasons 6 and 7 Buffy in a long time, and it would not surprise me if I never do again. Still, I purchased and then watched it both seasons multiple times (and high expectations for both the first time), I cared about the show and characters overall, and that gives me a right to talk about it, even if I'm less than pleased with it.

Three...to quote someone criticizing an anime... "This is my personal opinions on (a season) of a show that I love more than my own family. Just because I'm head over heels for this show doesn't mean I can't recognize its flaws. It's very heavily flawed....but do remember that when I hand out this criticism, that I love this show with a burning passion, no matter how it may stumble." He mentions elsewhere that if he didn't love the show so much then he wouldn't care enough to complain about the parts (mostly the writing and characterization) that he dislikes.
 
Btw (this is a statement to the general audience), it peeves me that people here assume I'm Bangel when I criticize Spuffy, and one also assumed I was a Spuffy for defending something Spike did. (I suppose it shouldn't surprise me, I've learned I can predict what a post is going to say just by seeing who Liked it, typically shippers.) I am neither Bangel nor Spuffy. But from what I see, it's the shipping elements that at least explain the vast majority of hatred for characters, especially against Angel.