Why so much hate on Angel?

[RomanticSoul]

Angel didn't invent that "strong, silent type".

Did anyone say that he did?

And it's not about being easy to understand versus being hard to understand: Characters like Faith and Spike are very flashy people, yet that doesn't mean that "what you see is what you get" - because what they project outside is just a facade, and their real emotions are often the opposite of what they project on the surface.

They are both easy to understand. S3 Faith is so clearly putting up a facade because her vulnerability smacks you in the face. One also gets it from some of the things she says. Spike might be harder, but not by much, since they change the character depending on what they want to do each Season. His base however stays the same (clothes/hair, snark, evilness, selfishness etc.). Add in some flashbacks and there is Spike. Easy.

 

[Priceless]

There is a central disconnect with Angel in that he is presented as brooding, solitary, quiet, and yet so many of his scenes ramp up the melodrama. It doesn't work for me, and is perhaps why it feels fake to others. His performance isn't nuanced. Unfortunately his face doesn't move much, so when he's listening to another character emoting for all their worth, his face looks wooden as though he's waiting to say his lines, instead of listening to what the other character says and reacting. He definitely improved over time.

 

[PaulParmar1]

I love Angel. I don't understand the hate for him.
He's cute, sweet, a good hero & while at times he annoys me I could never "hate him"

 

[Antho]

I love Angel. I don't understand the hate for him.
He's cute, sweet, a good hero & while at times he annoys me I could never "hate him"

I Love Love Love Love this comment <3<3<3<3<3<3<3

 

[PaulParmar1]

I Love Love Love Love this comment <3<3<3<3<3<3<3

Haha just because I'm a Spuffy in no ways means I hate Angel.
I love Cangel and angel's an overall really good character + he's pretty hot 😉

 

[BuffyBot22]

There is a central disconnect with Angel in that he is presented as brooding, solitary, quiet, and yet so many of his scenes ramp up the melodrama. It doesn't work for me, and is perhaps why it feels fake to others. His performance isn't nuanced. Unfortunately his face doesn't move much, so when he's listening to another character emoting for all their worth, his face looks wooden as though he's waiting to say his lines, instead of listening to what the other character says and reacting. He definitely improved over time.

This is where I think people just misinterpret his character.
Angel broods because he is racked with guilt over his past
He is quiet and likes solitary because he internalizes most of his emotions which is also directly tied into his guilt.
Typically characters who brood are going to experience melodrama (examples: Stefan from TVD, Ryan from The OC, I'm sure there are a ton more examples, this is just off the top of my head).
Over the top characters like Spike and Damon (TVD) are also involved in melodrama.
I feel like melodrama is inescapable in TV, because most of the time it can create some pretty great dramatic plot points or characterization. Sometimes the melodrama is too OTT that it can be distasteful, but for me if the writers know what they are doing they can typically make it work.

Angel's face looks like that because of everything mentioned above about his brooding, quietness, and solitary.
It would be really weird if Angel was supposed to be this mysterious character that internalizes his emotions and guilt but then all of sudden had these really expressive facial expressions when other characters are speaking. That for me would cause way more of a disconnect to the character. His facial mannerisms are more reserved and minute. You have to really look for them to see what he is thinking. Because that's the point his facial expressions are NOT supposed to be dead give aways. It would take away the mystery of the character. He is a character you really have to dissect.

 

[Priceless]

This is where I think people just misinterpret his character.
Angel broods because he is racked with guilt over his past
He is quiet and likes solitary because he internalizes most of his emotions which is also directly tied into his guilt.
Typically characters who brood are going to experience melodrama (examples: Stefan from TVD, Ryan from The OC, I'm sure there are a ton more examples, this is just off the top of my head).
Over the top characters like Spike and Damon (TVD) are also involved in melodrama.
I feel like melodrama is inescapable in TV, because most of the time it can create some pretty great dramatic plot points or characterization. Sometimes the melodrama is too OTT that it can be distasteful, but for me if the writers know what they are doing they can typically make it work.

Angel's face looks like that because of everything mentioned above about his brooding, quietness, and solitary.
It would be really weird if Angel was supposed to be this mysterious character that internalizes his emotions and guilt but then all of sudden had these really expressive facial expressions when other characters are speaking. That for me would cause way more of a disconnect to the character. His facial mannerisms are more reserved and minute. You have to really look for them to see what he is thinking. Because that's the point his facial expressions are NOT supposed to be dead give aways. It would take away the mystery of the character. He is a character you really have to dissect.

I don't think I'm misinterpreting his character, I am simply interpreting it differently 🙂

Angel is written to be dark, brooding and mysterious, a classic trope for a leading man. But I don't think DB can play that role with any authenticity (at least not early on) His acting style just isn't nuanced enough. He needs to show intensity without being intense, it's an art.

He's so much better as playing Angelus, the larger than life character, and although his line delivery is pretty melodramatic in that role, it's more believable for that character.

Angels face looks like it does because DB doesn't understand that acting is about listening to the other person and reacting to what they are saying. His face isn't mobile enough to convey feeling, DB needs language to convey emotion, at least early in the show, later on he gets better with his reactions, thought he always seems a tiny bit wooden.

If a character like Angel is put into a melodramatic situation, he should calm the situation down, he should be broodng, quiet, restrained, as befitting a 240 year old vamp who is intensely guilt ridden. The action and intensity should lessen, but what happens in these scenes is DB just goes for it, he forgets Angels character and raises his voice, delivers his lines so dramatically. They are usually scenes with him and SMG and she's always emotional and high-octane, and Angel should be a calming influence but instead he behaves like a boy having a spat with his gf. Now this could be DB or it could be the directions he's given, or a combination. Anyways, just my pov 🙂

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Angels face looks like it does because DB doesn't understand that acting is about listening to the other person and reacting to what they are saying. His face isn't mobile enough to convey feeling, DB needs language to convey emotion, at least early in the show, later on he gets better with his reactions, thought he always seems a tiny bit wooden.

I wholly disagree. I think so much of what DB brings to Angel is his facial movements and especially his eye movements. They are small and subtle and quintessentially Angel. They aren't grand facial expressions, this isn't a theater it's a TV show and he can get away with that subtle approach particularly because it fits with his character. It works for me. Obviously it doesn't work for everyone...

 

[Antho]

Angels face looks like it does because DB doesn't understand that acting is about listening to the other person and reacting to what they are saying.

I disagree but it's all a matter of perception. But I must say I have the opposite opinion because what I think is this :

I have always appreciated how much he let’s his co-stars shine. Some might argue that it wasn’t necessarily intentional but I think he comes across as someone who isn’t too focused on his own acting and sees it as a partnership. I think it speaks volumes that his 3 romantic leads in the buffyverse absolutely loved working with him.

Thanks @Mylie you said it better than I could

 

[Guy]

Well it really must be a subjective thing then because I did not think that at all with City Of. I just watched that scene again and there's a smirk when he asks Winters if he can fly, and a tiny smirk after we see Winters combust as he falls. His face is blank after that. And I think Angel does secretly enjoy badass acts of heroism/violence, so a hint of smugness even there I feel would be entirely within character.

Yeah, his face is blank, technically, but that blank-ness seems really fake to me. I just don't believe it. I don't see Angel in that moment, I just see David trying very hard to be like Angel. But again, this is subjective... I am glad for the people who DO enjoy his performance.

I think when his character really faltered was when they allowed DB to bring in more of his own lighter personality circa S3 (bad idea) and it was up and down after that depending on the tone of the episode, but I strongly disagree that authenticity only emerged in S5. A lot of the inauthenticity was to me a result of the material - e.g. the awful chatterbox Angelus of S4.

It did seem like Angel's personality changed in season 3, but at least David's performance stopped seeming fake, because he was just channeling himself. So, in the end it was on about the same level for me.

Yes I don't get the SMG hate either. I think she's a wonderful actress. The maturity and pathos of Buffy was largely a result of what she brought to the character.

YEP.

I'm well aware of that. I grew up on Batman too, who is of course the King of Brood. I'm not saying DB is the Best Brooder Ever, or that Angel is the best written incarnation of that archetype, just that he gives a better performance than he's often given credit for. However, I don't have an extensive knowledge of how that archetype has been used throughout film and TV history so I couldn't possibly thoroughly evaluate where he rates on the scale (seriously - not being sarky here.)

I'm not sure the odd gif does much to support your argument because unless you're willing to upload dozens of them, it's difficult to properly convey the emotional fluctuations a character goes through over one episode or even one or two scenes. As it is I don't see any brood from that Punisher shot, more like blank staring (but like I said, difficult to judge the character based on a single gif). And in the one of Angel below that I don't think he is actually brooding in that scene. It's not his brood-face, which goes more like this:

(sorry for the giant image. Couldn't find a smaller one)

He seems to be responding to another character but I can't tell what episode that shot is from. So not the best example.

Yeah, it's hard to find fitting gifs... Sorry about that.

Did anyone say that he did?

No. I just said that as a lead-in to my main argument - that Angel is only one of many broody, silent heroes, and I love many of those heroes, and therefore it's inaccurate to say that I (or people in general) dislike him simply because of his silent, restrained personality.

They are both easy to understand. S3 Faith is so clearly putting up a facade because her vulnerability smacks you in the face. One also gets it from some of the things she says. Spike might be harder, but not by much, since they change the character depending on what they want to do each Season. His base however stays the same (clothes/hair, snark, evilness, selfishness etc.). Add in some flashbacks and there is Spike. Easy.

Faith was pretty simple in s3, but she became much more nuanced after that. And sure, both she and Spike are not terribly hard to understand (compared to, say, Severus Snape), but the same is true of Angel. The fact that Angel is silent and restrained doesn't make him any more complex or subtle than the flashy characters. They are all complex and subtle in their own different ways. I both cases, what you see is NOT what you get.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Here is some good eye stuff

It did seem like Angel's personality changed in season 3, but at least David's performance stopped seeming fake, because he was just channeling himself. So, in the end it was on about the same level for me.

Its funny because s3 felt so incredibly fake to me, I mean it was DB but because it wasn't Angel it felt extremely out of place. But that's because I do buy into Angel's character in BTVS s1-3, AtS 1-2 (up until Epiphany), 4-5.

 

[Priceless]

I wholly disagree. I think so much of what DB brings to Angel is his facial movements and especially his eye movements. They are small and subtle and quintessentially Angel. They aren't grand facial expressions, this isn't a theater it's a TV show and he can get away with that subtle approach particularly because it fits with his character. It works for me. Obviously it doesn't work for everyone...

DB's style did improve as his show went on, but as we all agree it is purely subjective. What works for one doesn't work for another. I find DB pretty wooden. I also think it's partly that I'm maybe not watching him as closely as you bangels 🙂

 

[RomanticSoul]

Its funny because s3 felt so incredibly fake to me, I mean it was DB but because it wasn't Angel it felt extremely out of place. But that's because I do buy into Angel's character in BTVS s1-3, AtS 1-2 (up until Epiphany), 4-5.

I would exclude most of S5 AtS from this list. It's Whedon!Angel and that's not an Angel I like.

 

[Evil Seal]

Reading these posts, I realise that most people find DB's acting better as Angelus than as Angel. That's funny, I've always thought the opposite. I never found Angelus particularly scary and I've always felt like DB was trying too hard as Angelus... Whereas the small awkward kinda blank expressions of Angel's really speak to me. Maybe I over identify a bit because I'm a big ol' introvert, who knows

 

[EarthLogic]

Here is some good eye stuff

Hey, did he just break the fourth wall there?! That's from 'Disharmony' right? When Cordelia says 'imagine if you'd gone nuts and slept with Darla' and he says 'you know I would never do that'...?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Hey, did he just break the fourth wall there?! That's from 'Disharmony' right? When Cordelia says 'imagine if you'd gone nuts and slept with Darla' and he says 'you know I would never do that'...?

He's like a pantomime character. Wink, wink!

 

[EarthLogic]

He's like a pantomime character. Wink, wink!

I think Buffy's the only other character whose done that too: 'And you can sing along...'

Evil Seal: I'll Never Tell kinda constantly breaks the 4th wall

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. And Lorne does it in 'Spin the Bottle'. OK never mind, turns out quite a few characters do it.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Reading these posts, I realise that most people find DB's acting better as Angelus than as Angel. That's funny, I've always thought the opposite. I never found Angelus particularly scary and I've always felt like DB was trying too hard as Angelus... Whereas the small awkward kinda blank expressions of Angel's really speak to me. Maybe I over identify a bit because I'm a big ol' introvert, who knows

I liked him as both. But what I appreciate the most is the STARK differences between the two characters and how DB plays them so incredibly different. Angelus stands taller, has a swagger, the way he sits, his body movements are completely different from Angel's. He talks different, he smiles/laughs different. Angelus looks like a straight up sadistic psychopath. I find the transition between the two characters kind of amazing. It was extremely effective at first watch where you feel the major loss of a character you love right along with Buffy because this is very clearly not Angel and that is how the Angelus character was acted and how it was directed. This is most impressive in Becoming. The difference to me in Angel/Angelus body, facial expressions is evident when he gets his soul at the end. When he gets ensouled he almost suddenly slumps his shoulders a bit, there is more tension in his eyes and on his face, his brow furrows a bit. Not to many characters in the verse have had to play two different characters, essentially, and I think DB does this well. He does it best in s2 of BTVS but he does a pretty good job in S1 of AtS in Eternity and although my least favorite is Angelus in S4 AtS.

 

[EarthLogic]

Not to many characters in the verse have had to play two different characters, essentially, and I think DB does this well.

Actually...:
-Angel/Angelus
-Giles/Ripper
-Willow/VampWillow
-Xander/Vamp Xander
-Cordy/Evil Cordy
-Buffy/Faith!Buffy/First!Buffy...

Angel/Angelus is of course the most extreme example though.

 

[Evil Seal]

I liked him as both. But what I appreciate the most is the STARK differences between the two characters and how DB plays them so incredibly different. Angelus stands taller, has a swagger, the way he sits, his body movements are completely different from Angel's. He talks different, he smiles/laughs different. Angelus looks like a straight up sadistic psychopath. I find the transition between the two characters kind of amazing. It was extremely effective at first watch where you feel the major loss of a character you love right along with Buffy because this is very clearly not Angel and that is how the Angelus character was acted and how it was directed. This is most impressive in Becoming. The difference to me in Angel/Angelus body, facial expressions is evident when he gets his soul at the end. When he gets ensouled he almost suddenly slumps his shoulders a bit, there is more tension in his eyes and on his face, his brow furrows a bit. Not to many characters in the verse have had to play two different characters, essentially, and I think DB does this well. He does it best in s2 of BTVS but he does a pretty good job in S1 of AtS in Eternity and although my least favorite is Angelus in S4 AtS.

I agree on that front. Those are two distinct characters and even though I find Angelus a little fake, I admit that he feels completely different from Angel