Wiping memories - was Angel wrong?

[Skanky Vamp]

BUT I personally, in the long run, think he was happier and able to have a better life for having them.

What long run!?!? They were all going to DIE four episodes later!! hahahah


Pfft. Comics? Dont EVEN get me started on THOSE monstrosities.

 

[thetopher]

I think the 'IWRY' is very much different because Angel was deciding something for himself. Of course Buffy was affected, Angel (or, to be more accurate The Oracles) were taking back that perfect day away from her- from both of them- but overall the decision was Angel's to make. It was his life that had been utterly transformed by those events, he should get to decide if they remain permenant.

But with Connor, again I'll say that it was right from a certain POV, although I honestly think Angel was thinking only as a father trying to heal his boy and not as a noble champion-type, because he did violate the minds of his friends to do what he did.

It's wrong, no doubt, but the motivation makes it a murky, grey, understandable choice imo. I think saying catagorically that its wrong is too harsh/rigid a reaction.

I dont see how Jasmine took away free will. People still made choices. I suppose it would hinge on how you define free will. I dont see where what Jasmine did was that bad.

ANGEL: Rain of fire, blocking out the sun, and you just kinda piss me off.

Plus killing thousands of people, turning everybody who saw her into pod people (a certain loss of individuality), willingness to manipulate anybody, but mostly Conner, in order for its plan to come about, sacrifice innocents, cold-bloodedly murder Lilah and that innocent virgin girl (through manipulating Connor), try to murder Lorne, Willow, Faith. let Angelus run loose...etc.

And also hollow out Cordelia and use her body, in the process pretty much killing her. The Jasmine witters on about this 'for the great good' nonsense so we can all live like we're in 'Demolition Man'.
That's not peace, that's slavery.

 

[Blaze]

@Blaze, But the fact is that everyone seems to ignore the fact that Angel has to repair the damage created by other people. But only he, once again, has to make difficult choices, and I don't think that at point he had other choices. Sure, he could let die Connor and thus safeguard the memories of his friends, but it wouldn't be fair. On the other hand, when Wesley breaks the Orlon Window understands what Angel did. Those memories were created not to hide the truth but to endure it.

I just don't think he has the right to do this even if it's the damage made by others. Wes might be to blame for trying to take Connor, but he's not the one that brought him to Quor'toth. Damage might have been created by other people, most of all Holtz, but damage was also done by Angel himself. Of course, I understand that he's the one having to make the tough choices. Don't get me wrong I get why he did it, and if it was my child I would do the same. People having their memories erased is a small price to pay for your child to live.

I just think that if he had talked to the rest of the group about it first, they would have surely agreed if it was the only way to save Connor. Furthermore, he didn't have to erase their memories, just Connor's.

 

[white avenger]

(Willow could argue that she was giving Tara a better life by wiping her mind... )

.

I purposely have not brought up this subject in this discussion, as well as in discussions about the episode, "I Will Remember You." because there are always members here who insist that Willow's actions and Angel's actions, are somehow different, but stealing/changing another person's memories, especially without their knowledge or consent, is nothing short of (and some folks are REALLY offended by this phrase) mind rape, no more heinous than what Spike only TRIED to accomplish with Buffy in "Seeing Red."

There is a very distinct tendency to create double standards in Joss' shows, and the subject of this discussion is second only to the events of "Seeing Red," as mentioned above. The fact here is that Angel has no right whatsoever to determine what defines a "better life" for others. Hopefully, we learn, or at least SHOULD learn, from our experience, and probably most of all from the mistakes and bad choices that we make. Somehow, that fact seems to escape Angel, because he continues to make the same mistake, namely, making decisions that have great effect and importance to others, others who he supposedly cares about. Wiping Buffy's memories (okay, technically removing those memories by making the events of a whole day disappear, but the end result is exactly the same) apparently didn't teach Angel anything at all. Instead of dying by defending a loved one was Buffy's fate. All that Angel did was shift the blame of that death from himself to Dawn. Likewise, knowledge of Connor and the events of his troubled life, was something that Wes and the others were supposed to experience, to feel, and to learn from. Angel chose to take them away, but, just like with Buffy, Connor's inescapable fate, this time in the form of a prophecy concerning Connor killing Sahjahn (?) brought them back in a potentially disastrous fashion.

Fate, at least fate in the Buffyverse, is inescapable. By the time that Connor came along, Angel should have learned that. 

I think the 'IWRY' is very much different because Angel was deciding something for himself. Of course Buffy was affected, Angel (or, to be more accurate The Oracles) were taking back that perfect day away from her- from both of them- but overall the decision was Angel's to make. It was his life that had been utterly transformed by those events, he should get to decide if they remain permanent.

Except that Buffy's actual fate, that she would die in the act of protecting someone who she loved, ultimately Dawn, rather than Angel himself, remained exactly the same. All that Angel decided "for himself" was that he wouldn't be the loved one Buffy died for.

 

[Blaze]

I agree with a lot of what you said WA. The difference between Angel and Willow's action is merely the reasoning behind it. One was done for bad reasons, the other was done for the right reasons. Its what makes the two situation different in that sense, and it's easy to empathize with Angel because of this. But the decision remains wrong, just more ethically complicated. As someone who want children in the future, I support Angel's decision as a father, it was the right thing for Connor. But as a friend, and as an autonomous person, I cannot support Angel whipping his friend's minds.

As for IWRY, as stated before I think Angel had the right to that decision because ultimately it was a decision about himself. Angel had a right to decide if he wanted to become a vampire again or not. And the only way to do so was to rewind the time.

 

[The Bronze]

Angel was wrong. When you start playing with peoples minds, they become little more than your toys. I get it of course, he loves Connor and will protect him anyway he can, it's still wrong though. It fits in with Angel's God complex though. He strives to make things better, his version of better and will go to any lengths to achieve this. Wiping memories, re-writing history or destroying the universe and building a new one in his image.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Except that Buffy's actual fate, that she would die in the act of protecting someone who she loved, ultimately Dawn, rather than Angel himself, remained exactly the same. All that Angel decided "for himself" was that he wouldn't be the loved one Buffy died for.

Buffy was probably always destined to die for Dawn. The Oracles specifically said that she would die sooner if she was distracted by protecting Angel, but they never went into the exact scenario. She could have died the following week after Angel became human, and then nobody would be around to protect the Key from Glory, and the multiverse would be completely SOL as a result.

And while Angel mindwiping his friends is comparable to Willow mindwiping Tara (to a degree, which I will get into in a minute), I don't see how IWRY is comparable. One is altering time itself, which is pointed out in the episode, while the other is altering someone's mind to create false events and personalities. Buffy's mind was never touched in IWRY, and Angel didn't specifically ask the Oracles to mess with her head for his own convenience. She'd lose the memories because the day never happened, just like Cordelia and Doyle and literally everyone else on the planet lost memories of that day because they never lived it.

Now, for the Willow vs. Angel discussion: Willow altered Tara's mind because she didn't want to act like an adult and couldn't be bothered to deal with an argument and let it run its course. She wiped Tara's mind because it was convenient, and later had dubiously consensual sex with her parter who might not have been willing if she had all her memories intact. I've always been a little wary of calling it full blown rape, but there is no getting around that it is morally sketchy. The fact that Willow does it so casually and doesn't show any signs of guilt, or even learning a lesson as she tries it again immediately after getting found out, kind of makes her a sociopath. And she never apologizes to Tara or her friends, either. The morality of what Angel did is incredibly dubious, but he has the decency to feel guilty about it, and has a better reason for it going in than "because it suits me". Which is why I'm always baffled by Angel being singled out as the one with the sociopathic God complex, as compared to the Scoobies, he seems to weigh the consequences of his actions*. Willow was the one on a power trip, not Angel; in fact, he feels pretty damned trapped by Wolfram and Hart throughout the season because he is indebted to them and doesn't like the feeling.

Speaking of which, did Angel actually tell Wolfram and Hart to alter the memories of his friends, or was that just a package deal with altering Connor's mind? I mean, giving him a double edged sword decision like "We'll help your son, but we're totally gonna dick around with the memories of your friends, it's the only way. Make your decision, tick tock trolllolololol" is totally their thing.

* At least he never violated the bodies of all the potential Slayers in the world by activating them without their consent. Dana says hi to Buffy and Willow, btw.

 

[thetopher]

Except that Buffy's actual fate, that she would die in the act of protecting someone who she loved, ultimately Dawn, rather than Angel himself, remained exactly the same. All that Angel decided "for himself" was that he wouldn't be the loved one Buffy died for.

And, those specific circumstances allowed Willow to bring Buffy back from death, because of the very nature of that death- Buffy jumping into the portal instead of Dawn.
We don't know how Buffy would've died sacrificing herself for Angel- we can only speculate, which Angel wasn't able to do.

The Oracles gave Angel 1 option- take back the day, it's not like Angel could specify how he got his powers back- it was either this or Buffy dies sooner than she was meant to.

Also, Angel can't see into the future- it was the Oracles that told him what would happen IF HE remained human- he wasn't 'shifting the blame', you seem to be putting the fault of future events on to him, which is completely unfair.

I purposely have not brought up this subject in this discussion, as well as in discussions about the episode, "I Will Remember You." because there are always members here who insist that Willow's actions and Angel's actions, are somehow different, but stealing/changing another person's memories, especially without their knowledge or consent, is nothing short of (and some folks are REALLY offended by this phrase) mind rape, no more heinous than what Spike only TRIED to accomplish with Buffy in "Seeing Red."

And lets get a couple of other things clear. What Willow did to Tara is in an entirely different league. It was an utterly selfish violation (and won't use that godawful term 'mind-rape' because it's crude) to change an arguement. A frigging argument is what we're talking about here. Not life and death, not a totally screwed up kid who'd had his life ruined by Holtz and the Jasdelia. No, it was because *gasp* Tara was mad at her. Please 😡

Something so utterly small that Willow could've fixed it the next day by apologising and making pancakes or something. Instead she 'fixed' Tara for herself and only for herself.

Also changing somebody's mind is NOT comparable with trying to rape somebody in a bathroom. otherwise I'd expect Connor, Wesley, Fred or whoever to ACT like they'd been violated in that way- angry, shocked, shamed traumatised, whatever. They don't so it isn't, and it's kind of insulting to make the moral equivalency arguement that physically asaulting somebody is like 'taking back a day' or whatever.

Angel's tweo instances were done for much bigger reasons- they were done primarily for the benenfit of somebody else- whether that's for Connor or for Buffy and the greater fight as a whole.

Somehow, that fact seems to escape Angel, because he continues to make the same mistake, namely, making decisions that have great effect and importance to others, others who he supposedly cares about.

Btw two instances is not a pattern of behaviour, it's two instances, 1 in s1 and the other at the end of S4.
Angel's true fault is that he tends to go for the 'quick fix' when it comes to his curse/redemption path. This manifests itself in different ways throughout his character arc- whether it's suicide by sunrise, going dark and vengful onW&H or trying to create another, more perfect, universe with Buffy)

This reveals that a lot of this is just naked Angel hate- saying that he supposedly cares for Buffy or Connor. 😡

 

[The Bronze]

* At least he never violated the bodies of all the potential Slayers in the world by activating them without their consent. Dana says hi to Buffy and Willow, btw.

Which she'd have struggled to do if she was gutted by a Bringer, eaten by a Turok Han or entered by The First. Probably for the best her representatives voted in favour of activation.

 

[Taake]

Sorry guys, didn't not mean to enflame with my Willow mention. That was put there to argue the claim that Angel had given his friends a "better life", but Angel nowhere actually claims this and certainly wouldn't. It was just something that came up during discussion.

Willow vs. Angel mind-wiping is probably best saved for it's own thread.

 

[white avenger]

As for IWRY, as stated before I think Angel had the right to that decision because ultimately it was a decision about himself. Angel had a right to decide if he wanted to become a vampire again or not. And the only way to do so was to rewind the time.

Buffy was probably always destined to die for Dawn. The Oracles specifically said that she would die sooner if she was distracted by protecting Angel, but they never went into the exact scenario.
And while Angel mindwiping his friends is comparable to Willow mindwiping Tara (to a degree, which I will get into in a minute), I don't see how IWRY is comparable. One is altering time itself, which is pointed out in the episode, while the other is altering someone's mind to create false events and personalities. Buffy's mind was never touched in IWRY, and Angel didn't specifically ask the Oracles to mess with her head for his own convenience. She'd lose the memories because the day never happened, just like Cordelia and Doyle and literally everyone else on the planet lost memories of that day because they never lived it.

Now, for the Willow vs. Angel discussion: Willow altered Tara's mind because she didn't want to act like an adult and couldn't be bothered to deal with an argument and let it run its course. She wiped Tara's mind because it was convenient, and later had dubiously consensual sex with her parter who might not have been willing if she had all her memories intact.

* At least he never violated the bodies of all the potential Slayers in the world by activating them without their consent. Dana says hi to Buffy and Willow, btw.

As I said, I purposely avoided this subject because it has been covered several times in threads devoted to it, and I'm making a real effort NOT to hijack anyone else's threads this year. Sorry that I ever mentioned such a volatile subject.

As for Buffy's decision to activate every Potential in the world, I completely agree with you. 

Which she'd have struggled to do if she was gutted by a Bringer, eaten by a Turok Han or entered by The First. Probably for the best her representatives voted in favour of activation.

Activating all of the Potentials IN SUNNYDALE would have been acceptable battle strategy. Activating all the others, with no forewarning of what was coming, was irresponsibility.

Willow vs. Angel mind-wiping is probably best saved for it's own thread.

Yep.

 

[bespangeled]

I dont think it is as easy an answer as yes it's wrong. That kind of thinking was best left for the Buffy show. To me, Angel was always about the cost of things. Theoretically to wipe the memories could be considered wrong, but look at all of the good that it did. It allowed people to heal in ways they could have never healed before.

I think in Angels memory wiping thing it is his finally understanding that Jasmine was right, and a few people being sacrificed for world peace was a small thing. Wiping his friends memories to remove such burdens and pain from their lives can not simply be labeled 'wrong' it just depends on how you look at the situation. He gave them a better life. Moreoever, if it was 'wrong' he never got backlash from it. Everyone involved realized, at least on a subconscious level, it was the right thing to do.

You don't heal if memories are erased (or even repressed). Healing requires facing the memories and the conflicting emotions. If the memories are artificially removed I would imagine that at best you would remain ignorant with huge gaps in your entire psyche. It's also possible that fake memories were installed when the real memories were taken, which would be confusing on a basic level. At the very least there would be some sort of compulsion not to think about that time too deeply.

The group began to splinter after the memories were taken. Part of what held them together is the shared memories of the past years. By the time that they had been at W&H a month or so, Angel called a meeting and no one showed. Yes, they were all busy working on projects - every single one of them was so busy they couldn't delegate work for a hour and meet together. That shows where the priorities have shifted radically.

A few people sacrificed for a greater good is the coda of every murderous dictator ever. It was the rationale of both Faith, and later Spike. It goes against everything the Buffyverse stands for. I can't believe that the very people who were violated actually deeply approve of the way they were violated. I don't think there is any indication of that. When Willow violated Tara's memories it was seen as a huge intrusion. Granted, Angel had a much stronger reason to do it, but he also violated the memories of four of his people much more deeply. (Cordelia asked about Connor so she remembered.) It's Illyria who is interesting - she is aware of both sets of memories and questions hoe memory entwines with identity, and whether it is better or not to know the truth.

ILLYRIA
You betrayed Angel. You stole his son. He tried to kill you.

WESLEY
Yes.

ILLYRIA
Are these the memories you needed back? Does this now make you Wesley?

WESLEY
(nods)
At least I know what happened.


thetopher - I agree that Wesley and Connor got their memories back but they were in the room which had to be heavily warded. If Lorne and Gunn got any change in memories, I would have expected some acknowledgement. Doylist explanation - bad writing again. 

Except that Buffy's actual fate, that she would die in the act of protecting someone who she loved, ultimately Dawn, rather than Angel himself, remained exactly the same. All that Angel decided "for himself" was that he wouldn't be the loved one Buffy died for.

Prophecy seems pretty mutable but also inevitable in that universe. The very event Wes attempted to avert created the circumstance to bring it to fruition - the father did kill the son. 

Buffy was probably always destined to die for Dawn. The Oracles specifically said that she would die sooner if she was distracted by protecting Angel, but they never went into the exact scenario. She could have died the following week after Angel became human, and then nobody would be around to protect the Key from Glory, and the multiverse would be completely SOL as a result.

And while Angel mindwiping his friends is comparable to Willow mindwiping Tara (to a degree, which I will get into in a minute), I don't see how IWRY is comparable. One is altering time itself, which is pointed out in the episode, while the other is altering someone's mind to create false events and personalities. Buffy's mind was never touched in IWRY, and Angel didn't specifically ask the Oracles to mess with her head for his own convenience. She'd lose the memories because the day never happened, just like Cordelia and Doyle and literally everyone else on the planet lost memories of that day because they never lived it.

Now, for the Willow vs. Angel discussion: Willow altered Tara's mind because she didn't want to act like an adult and couldn't be bothered to deal with an argument and let it run its course. She wiped Tara's mind because it was convenient, and later had dubiously consensual sex with her parter who might not have been willing if she had all her memories intact. I've always been a little wary of calling it full blown rape, but there is no getting around that it is morally sketchy. The fact that Willow does it so casually and doesn't show any signs of guilt, or even learning a lesson as she tries it again immediately after getting found out, kind of makes her a sociopath. And she never apologizes to Tara or her friends, either. The morality of what Angel did is incredibly dubious, but he has the decency to feel guilty about it, and has a better reason for it going in than "because it suits me". Which is why I'm always baffled by Angel being singled out as the one with the sociopathic God complex, as compared to the Scoobies, he seems to weigh the consequences of his actions*. Willow was the one on a power trip, not Angel; in fact, he feels pretty damned trapped by Wolfram and Hart throughout the season because he is indebted to them and doesn't like the feeling.

Speaking of which, did Angel actually tell Wolfram and Hart to alter the memories of his friends, or was that just a package deal with altering Connor's mind? I mean, giving him a double edged sword decision like "We'll help your son, but we're totally gonna dick around with the memories of your friends, it's the only way. Make your decision, tick tock trolllolololol" is totally their thing.

* At least he never violated the bodies of all the potential Slayers in the world by activating them without their consent. Dana says hi to Buffy and Willow, btw.

In the event of Buffy's death there would be no purpose creating the key as her sister. I assume that Fiath would have been thoe one to protect her - perhaps as a new inmate.

Is there any specific scene or event that shows Angel feels guilty about the mind wipe? People keep saying that, but I don't recall it being shown. Is it just a general assumption based on his need to carry such a huge burden?

Technically speaking Angel(us) would be a psychopath and Spike would be a sociopath....just saying. 😉

ANGEL
(puts down the phone) I'm sorry what happened to you, Lilah. I really am. Me and my friends will be leaving now.

The telephone rings. Lilah answers it. Angel sighs.

LILAH
(to phone) Yes? Of course. (hangs up) The senior partners would like you to test all the amenities before you make your decision. (presses a remote control button, revealing a television that's playing a news report)

REPORTER
evacuated and bomb units have been called to the scene where police say more than a dozen promenade shoppers are being held hostage at this hour. Police are trying to identify the suspect from these security camera pictures. (the footage shows Connor on the screen; Angel walks closer to the television for a better look) So far, no motive is known for the siege, and the suspect has refused to speak with law enforcement officials. We'll keep you updated as this intense drama unfolds.

LILAH
Wow, really does have your eyes, doesn't he?

Resume. Angel sees Connor on the television news report. Angel grabs Lilah by the throat and pushes her up against the wall angrily.

LILAH
Watch the head. It comes off kind of easy.

ANGEL
(through gritted teeth) You set this whole thing up.

LILAH
Been a little busy with the being dead.

ANGEL
You, the senior partners, whoever. Get 'em on the phone and make it stop (low) now.

LILAH
Love to, except for the part where we didn't have anything to do with—

ANGEL
But you know who did.

LILAH
Yeah, I'm looking at him. You're the one who raised him or didn't. (Angel lets her go; Lilah clears throat) Can't imagine how the kid turned out postal.

ANGEL
You don't know a thing about Connor, huh. Let's keep it that way. (walks toward the door)

LILAH
One time offer only, Angel. Walk out that door, deal's off. Stay, and it's all yours.

ANGEL
People like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you what the deal's gonna be.

So it was Angel who insisted on the mind wipes as his condition for taking over W&H.

 

[thetopher]

Sorry, I'm not convinced that the Angel crew drifted apart because of their mind-wipe, the inferrence is that the overwhelming ammount of time that they have to spend running the company means they spend less time with each other. There is ZERO evidence that they are less close/friendly, just time constrained.

The two real tensions come from Gunn's 'upgrade' and the appearance of SDpike/ the meddling and manipulations of Eve later on. AI becomes fractured after Fred's illness/dead. Wesley later thinks that was Angel's deal, but he was wrong.

A few people sacrificed for a greater good is the coda of every murderous dictator ever. It was the rationale of both Faith, and later Spike.

And Giles and Wesley The Watcher's Council in general. But all those cases take place ON BUFFY' s show, not on Angel, which is differently morally shaded/more grown-up. Calling it 'everything the Buffyverse is against' is just a blanket ascertion- it's a point of view, the prevaling one on Buffy's show, which is more morally idealistic.

And we're not talking about mass murder, we're talking about saving a soul that at one time was truly, wholly innocent and, through no fault of their own, was thrown into a hell dimension and raised by a sociopath.
Angel wanted to give Connor the life he should've had, the one he couldn't give him the first time around. Of course there was a price- the price was steep and really Angel didn't have the right to make that for his friends. But I tend to judge it on the merits of the person most affected and that was Connor.
Connor had a real reason to be pissed at Angel when he found out the truth, that one life was just a comforting lie made up by his father, but he doesn't- he got what Angel was trying to do.
And of course Angel felt guilty, because ultimately he felt that he'd failed his son and the only way he could help him was by getting into bed with Evil Inc.

thetopher - I agree that Wesley and Connor got their memories back but they were in the room which had to be heavily warded. If Lorne and Gunn got any change in memories, I would have expected some acknowledgement. Doylist explanation - bad writing again.

Not really, neither Gunn or Lorne was especially close with Connor so what would be the point? The only people who were greatly affected were Angel, Wesley, Cordelia (who had no passed on) and to a lesser extent Fred- who was now also gone.
The show focused on those who are truly affected, and I can't remember the Orlon Window being destroyed anywhere that would've created a ripple affect. The rules of the show indicate that if a spell is broken, it's broken and stops affecting all involved.

Prophecy seems pretty mutable but also inevitable in that universe. The very event Wes attempted to avert created the circumstance to bring it to fruition - the father did kill the son.

The original prophecy was that Connor would kill Sahjahn, which absolutely came true, despite Sahjahn's meddling. Some prophecies, like the one that Buffy would die and the hands of the Master, absolutely do come true, their immutable. Angel didn't know what type of prophecy the Ocacles were ascerting and, in his mind, couldn't take the chance.

bespangeled: Why is it Angel hate to question a choice he made?

I was responding to the ascertion that what Angel was doing was as petty/selfish/thoughtless as what Willow did to Tara or that it was disgustingly vile as Spike's attempted rape of Buffy.
Also the statement that Angel supposedly cared for Buffy and Connor- basically saying that in reality he's just a self-centred jerk- which totally is just hate for the character whilst ignoring ALL the context of the decision.

 

[Taake]

LILAH
One time offer only, Angel. Walk out that door, deal's off. Stay, and it's all yours.

ANGEL
People like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you what the deal's gonna be.

So it was Angel who insisted on the mind wipes as his condition for taking over W&H.

Oh well, look at that. Didn't remember that bit at all. Well... I thought he was wrong before and obviously, I now think he was even more wrong.
Still I'm not sure why he'd want Connor erased from their minds, that part doesn't make sense to me... it's like he would think they couldn't handle it? Would seek new and improved Connor out? But why on earth would they? They were all pleased to leave Cordy as a Higher Being so Connor having a new life ought to have been all-around celebrated, no? Which basically puts us at Angel was trying to 'quick fix' his friends hurts and that is "noble" but ultimately wrong, presumptous and misguided.

I still love the guy but bad move dude, bad move.

 

[white avenger]

Also the statement that Angel supposedly cared for Buffy and Connor- basically saying that in reality he's just a self-centred jerk- which totally is just hate for the character whilst ignoring ALL the context of the decision.

Whether or not Angel is a jerk, self centered or otherwise, has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that, within the confines of the Buffyverse story line, Angel is SUPPOSEDLY in love Buffy, Buffy is SUPPOSEDLY the Slayer, Spike is SUPPOSEDLY a vampire, and Giles is SUPPOSEDLY a Watcher. The term "supposedly," within context, means that the statement is imagined, accepted, or assumed to be true, with no need for further verification. It is neither a statement or a suggestion of disbelief.

If I ever decide that I hate Angel, believe me when I say that I will use the proper words to de3scribe that feeling. Angel at various times within the story line exasperates me, infuriates me, makes me laugh, or chokes me up with emotion (the look on his face when Buffy shoves that sword in his chest, the shock and sense of confusion, and even a little bit of betrayal, does it to me every time that I watch that episode) but I've never hated him.

I do, however, agree that he is, quite often, as dull as a table lamp.

 

[thetopher]

'Supposedly' can also expess doubt of certain accepted truthes of the show. Especially when used to describe someones emotional state towards another character.

Saying 'Spike is supposedly a vampire' is not the same as 'Angel supposedly loves Buffy' in any context.

If I said that Spike 'supposedy' loves Buffy. In that context, it very much looks like I am expressing doubt at the genuine-ness of that emotion. Even though I dislike Spike I don't doubt the affections he shows for people when he chooses to show them, whether that be Dru, Buffy Dawn or anybody else.
And it's not unknown for some people on these boards to be vaguely back-handed in their assaults on other characters.

Even so, I apologise if I made an incorrect assumption, but I trust you can see where the confusion over word use lay. 🙂

I do, however, agree that he is, quite, as dull as a table lamp.

I don't get how a character can have interesting character flaws that merit discussion AND be dull, it makes no sense to me. A character can be disliked because they are dull, or disliked because you don't like their particular character faults, not both imo.

For example I don't see anybody starting threads up about Groo- because he is, in fact, as dull as a table lamp.
Angel is not- Angel is damn well Shakespearean when it comes to a hero having a big, fatal flaw that costs him happiness. To me that's the opposite of dull, that's fascinating. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

'Supposedly' can also expess doubt of certain accepted truthes of the show. Especially when used to describe someones emotional state towards another character.

Saying 'Spike is supposedly a vampire' is not the same as 'Angel supposedly loves Buffy' in any context.

If I said that Spike 'supposedy' loves Buffy. In that context, it very much looks like I am expressing doubt at the genuine-ness of that emotion. Even though I dislike Spike I don't doubt the affections he shows for people when he chooses to show them, whether that be Dru, Buffy Dawn or anybody else.
And it's not unknown for some people on these boards to be vaguely back-handed in their assaults on other characters.

Even so, I apologise if I made an incorrect assumption, but I trust you can see where the confusion over word use lay. 🙂



I don't get how a character can have interesting character flaws that merit discussion AND be dull, it makes no sense to me. A character can be disliked because they are dull, or disliked because you don't like their particular character faults, not both imo.

For example I don't see anybody starting threads up about Groo- because he is, in fact, as dull as a table lamp.
Angel is not- Angel is damn well Shakespearean when it comes to a hero having a big, fatal flaw that costs him happiness. To me that's the opposite of dull, that's fascinating. 🙂

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supposedly

supposedly

Also found in: Legal, Idioms.
sup·posed
(sə-pōzd′)
adj.
1. (also sə-pō′zĭd) Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence: a supposed spy; the supposed decline of culture.
2. (also sə-pōst′) Intended: medication that is supposed to relieve pain.
3. (also sə-pōst′)
a. Required: He is supposed to go to the store.
b. Permitted: We are not supposed to smoke here.
c. Firmly believed; expected: You're supposed to be my friend.

But I do apologize for ant confusion that my statement might have caused.

As for the table lamp comparison, have you, by any chance, ever seen the movie, "Christmas Story?"

 

[Skanky Vamp]

For example I don't see anybody starting threads up about Groo- because he is, in fact, as dull as a table lamp.

But they only turned him that way.. when they first introduced the character he wasn't dull. He was interesting. Or at least to me. Then when he showed up in LA he was still interesting. When he and Angel were tracking the whatever it was through the sewer and Groo goes running off into the light to fight him while Angel had to hide in the shadows, it brought an interesting dynamic. It was a dynamic that was later played upon when Spike entered the show- that being that someone was as comparable to Angel in the hero business. But they ruined it when they had him wearing Angels hair and clothes. At that time the Groo character was gone.

 

[thetopher]

But they only turned him that way.. when they first introduced the character he wasn't dull. He was interesting.

He was a walking cliche from the moment he was introduced in Pylea- like Conan without any grit/edge.

I do agree that he could've been interesting when they reintroduced him in S3 'Couplet', he could've been a genuinly fascinating 'fish out of water' character, but really they just used him to illustrate a contrast with Angel and that's it.

Also, as I said, not any threads out there about him. I don't even think anybody ships him with Cordelia.

 

[Taake]

Topic people, topic.

🙂