Question Would Angel have killed Connor?

[Skanky Vamp]

You should never give in. That was your first mistake.

The head can only be banged against a wall for so long. Sooner or later you find it's in your best interest to stop. I just am aware that some people watched an entirely different show than I did... and that's okay.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Didn't Angel kill Connor at the end of Home? It wasn't even to save the world or humanity.

I also believe he killed him in Home.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I also believe he killed him in Home.

I ain't arguing wicha! barking up the wrong pole on that one.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

For me it's a no. And because he hurted Cordelia? I can believe that he loved Cordelia very much but more than his own son? No, he would try and find a way to reform him. He would give Connor his own redemption path before ven considering killing him.
 

Hell, Angel almost killed Wesley over Connor being lost to a Hell dimension, what would've he done if Cordelia got sent to the same dimension by Connor?

(Not voting yet, I want to mull it over a bit more and look at that link first.)

But Wesley is not his son. Your love for your child is usually selfless and unconditional and I don't think Angel had that kind of love for Wesley. He would not forgive him like he does for Connor.

 

[thrasherpix]

But Wesley is not his son. Your love for your child is usually selfless and unconditional and I don't think Angel had that kind of love for Wesley. He would not forgive him like he does for Connor.

I do not have a romanticized notion of selfless and unconditional love for a child. The reality of such is, at best, greatly exaggerated. And children have been killed even by their own mothers just because the child or children stood in the way of the mother getting with a man she had the hots for (among other terrible things done to children for this, and many other, reasons). They get killed for other reasons as well.

ETA: I checked stats and found this, about how 5 children die a day from abuse and/or neglect, much of that abuse by one or both of their parents.

I don't mean to paint Angel in a bad light, but I'm saying I don't take such selfless love into account, which is sporadic at best in my view. Angel has a real dark side he struggles with that shows up from time to time (and I think Xander has ample reason to hate and distrust him even without the jealousy), and Angel has killed when people he loved was hurt or threatened before, and presumably he also cared deeply for Wes. "His son is different." I'm not sure that it is. I think he came real close to killing Connor when his son was having sex with Cordelia later on, though he regained control of himself...barely...before that point.

 

[Antho]

I'm a little confused with the "Angel killed Connor in Home" . Do you mean "Kill" in the sense he erased Connor's memory ?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

close to killing Connor when his son was having sex with Cordelia later on, though he regained control of himself...barely...before that point.

Gotta say I’m confused can you direct me to a scene/episode you are referring to???

 

[thrasherpix]

Gotta say I’m confused can you direct me to a scene/episode you are referring to???

During or after the rain of fire, Angel finds Connor and Cordelia having sex (from outside) and has a total meltdown, which I believe included tearing a room or utility closet apart. Had he gone into that room with them in such a violent rage instead of another room, it wouldn't have been pleasant for either of them. He wasn't tearing it up for a constitutional, but to vent so he didn't go tear THEM up. At least that's how I interpret it, and fits with the theme of the incredible jealousies that sometimes get violent in the Buffy/Angelverse.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

During or after the rain of fire, Angel finds Connor and Cordelia having sex (from outside) and has a total meltdown, which I believe included tearing a room or utility closet apart. Had he gone into that room with them in such a violent rage instead of another room, it wouldn't have been pleasant for either of them. He wasn't tearing it up for a constitutional, but to vent so he didn't go tear THEM up. At least that's how I interpret it, and fits with the theme of the incredible jealousies that sometimes get violent in the Buffy/Angelverse.

Just speaking objectively, that does not equate “close to killing Connor.” I have been so upset i broke stuff or hit stuff but i can tell you with some certainty i wasnt planning on killing anyone...
 
Omg i had a horrible typo at first post so glad i caught it lol

 

[thrasherpix]

Just speaking objectively, that does not equate “close to killing Connor.” I have been so upset i broke stuff or hit stuff but i can tell you with some certainty i wasnt planning on killing anyone...
 
Omg i had a horrible typo at first post so glad i caught it lol

Sure. If Cordy looked up and waved, I'm sure he'd have just given her the finger and left to brood some more. It's not like he's ever killed before, or ever displayed self-control to control his dark side. 😛

But seriously, we'll just have to disagree on this.

 

[EarthLogic]

During or after the rain of fire, Angel finds Connor and Cordelia having sex (from outside) and has a total meltdown, which I believe included tearing a room or utility closet apart. Had he gone into that room with them in such a violent rage instead of another room, it wouldn't have been pleasant for either of them.

According to the transcript, he beat up a door.

 

[Antho]

@Mr. Pole So People really believe Angel literally killed his son in "Home" ?

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

@Mr. Pole So People really believe Angel literally killed his son in "Home" ?

I am currently having a attack of the lazy so I stole this quote from Wes: ''Tim Minear, who wrote and directed Home, mentions that Angel does indeed kill Connor in his commentary.''
At the end of my rewatch I will check the commentary myself, because you could argue that he thinks changing Connor's memories = killing the original one.
 
More quotes from the thread I've linked:
''I don't think Angel killed Connor. I think what caused the shift in realities was Angel's intent - Angel had full intent to kill Connor. Connor was going to kill Cordelia and a bunch of innocents. So, yea he was going to kill Connor - but all the reality shift needed was his intent to do so, and that's the guilt Angel is wracked with - that he was going to kill his own son.''

''I agree with that, he also said:I really do love you son...
Conner: proove it...
Angel takes the knife and looking away thrusts it into Conner...
White flash...
Cut to...Angel walking towards his friends back at w&h...
The fact that Angel looks away prooves that he couldn't look at what he was about to do=Guilt..(mixed with love and pain)
the stabbing i reckon was a condition as part of the spell (memory alteraton/reality change)to alter Conners memories and every one elses..''

 

[Antho]

because you could argue that he thinks changing Connor's memories = killing the original one.

That's how I have always interpreted things, that's more logical to me than imagine he killed his son and WF bring back Connor to life with a new family 😵
 
I need to rewatch the episode @MarlieTheSlayer

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Regardless of whether he killed him or not he struck a deal with WH and knew his son would be alive at the end of the ordeal with a better life. So if you know the act of killing won’t actually kill the person but transform them it kind of makes it moot.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Regardless of whether he killed him or not he struck a deal with WH and knew his son would be alive at the end of the ordeal with a better life. So if you know the act of killing won’t actually kill the person but transform them it kind of makes it moot.

That's not true. You still killed him. Watched him die. From a stab wound; it would have taken time. It would not have been pretty. Even if no one else 'remembers' it, Angel still does. He still carries around the image of his son, lying there, coughing and choking on blood as he, presumably, died in his arms from a wound he inflicted. Regardless if he knew he would still be alive again or not, thats not something one easily forgets.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

That's not true. You still killed him. Watched him die. From a stab wound; it would have taken time. It would not have been pretty. Even if no one else 'remembers' it, Angel still does. He still carries around the image of his son, lying there, coughing and choking on blood as he, presumably, died in his arms from a wound he inflicted. Regardless if he knew he would still be alive again or not, thats not something one easily forgets.

Well from the stand point of Angel having to live through it, the trauma etc yes absolutely but from the perspective of Angel as a killer I’d say it does render it moot if he knows he is killing him so that he may live again - the intent is to GIVE life not take it.

 

[EarthLogic]

That's not true. You still killed him. Watched him die. From a stab wound; it would have taken time. It would not have been pretty. Even if no one else 'remembers' it, Angel still does. He still carries around the image of his son, lying there, coughing and choking on blood as he, presumably, died in his arms from a wound he inflicted. Regardless if he knew he would still be alive again or not, thats not something one easily forgets.

Did he? I thought that the reality shift took place in the exact moment Angel slashed at - 'killed' - Connor. There's nothing to suggest Connor suffered a slow death before the memory wipe. My impression is that it was like the time-fold in IWRY: as soon as Angel stabbed Connor he was returned to the moment of being in the office with Lilah, with the exception of everyone's memories having been changed.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Did he? I thought that the reality shift took place in the exact moment Angel slashed at - 'killed' - Connor. There's nothing to suggest Connor suffered a slow death before the memory wipe. My impression is that it was like the time-fold in IWRY: as soon as Angel stabbed Connor he was returned to the moment of being in the office with Lilah, with the exception of everyone's memories having been changed.

But then what happened after he slashed at him? It's just really ambiguous at to what happened.

 

[EarthLogic]

But then what happened after he slashed at him? It's just really ambiguous at to what happened.

Like I said - instant time-fold, like IWRY. I'm guessing whatever spell was used would require Connor's blood to be released, but not necessarily that it flowed out until he actually died.