A Lover or a Killer?

[Willow My Love]

I really don't think it's fair to say they "ruined" the character because you don't like the direction they took him in. I'm personally really glad they took Spike this way and the fact that you say they "ruined" the character kind of offends me. You don't like it fine... but they didn't "ruin" anything.

Okay, but IMO, they ruined the character. It's my opinion, I'm allowed to have it. I apologize for offending you. That wasn't my intention, but I feel they ruined Spike's character. In my eyes, they ruined his character.

As for the change from s7 BtVS to s5 AtS, Angel even says it only took Spike three weeks of being insane in a basement. I just don't see how they changed a tender, caring character back into his selfish ways again. That really annoys me.

 

[zobothehobo]

As for the change from s7 BtVS to s5 AtS, Angel even says it only took Spike three weeks of being insane in a basement. I just don't see how they changed a tender, caring character back into his selfish ways again. That really annoys me.

So because Angel says it, it's true? Did you forget that after Angel was cursed, he was still with the fanged four? Did you forget that The Boxer Rebellion happened AFTER Angel was cursed? And he, with a soul, went back to that? It seems like how vampires with souls react.

I think Spike was still adjusting. I, personally thing he is STILL adjusting. I thin Angel is too. I think having a soul after not having one for so long is something both of them will always be adjusting to.

 

[Taake]

So because Angel says it, it's true? Did you forget that after Angel was cursed, he was still with the fanged four?

Simmer down, no need to jump on people for their opinions. I'm sure WillowMyLove didn't forget anything, but we all see things differently...


As for the Angel thing... I don't even think Angel 'really' meant it. It was just off-hand hyperbole, what else could it be - he wasn't there so he didn't really know. But when you're upset or agitated most of us are prone to put emphasis where we want it

Did you forget that The Boxer Rebellion happened AFTER Angel was cursed? And he, with a soul, went back to that? It seems like how vampires with souls react.

I doubt there's a hard and fast rule for how vampires react. I think as with all things Angel/Spike it's incredibly individual. And most importantly - driven by plot convenience in these cases...

I think Spike was still adjusting. I, personally thing he is STILL adjusting. I thin Angel is too. I think having a soul after not having one for so long is something both of them will always be adjusting to.

I think you're probably right. I don't think it's someting they'll ever just take for granted. The shadow/memory of being soulless will always lurk in the background.

 

[Willow My Love]

So because Angel says it, it's true? Did you forget that after Angel was cursed, he was still with the fanged four? Did you forget that The Boxer Rebellion happened AFTER Angel was cursed? And he, with a soul, went back to that? It seems like how vampires with souls react.

I think Spike was still adjusting. I, personally thing he is STILL adjusting. I thin Angel is too. I think having a soul after not having one for so long is something both of them will always be adjusting to.

I'd like to know why you're reacting like I'm attacking you, personally.

Did I say that because Angel said it, it's true? No. But your beloved Spike isn't all holier than thou either. It's just that we saw some really good character development in Spike in s7, and then, all of a sudden, it's gone. Adjusting or not, it annoyed me, and I'm allowed to be annoyed with that.

Now, back on topic...

 

[prophecygrrl]

I think a lot of people tend to see Spike as the second option because he's portrayed as pretty much impotent for most of the series. I mean, he's bad in Season 2, pathetically drunk in Season 3 for a brief (but memorable 😛) appearance, and then chipped in Season 4-7. He very rarely kills people on screen, except for in flashbacks, so it's hard to see him as the ruthless murderer.

I love Spike, but I can't see him as just the lovelorn poet because of what he becomes. Even if there's still a bit of the poet in him, there's no arguing that he changed profoundly. There's so many layers to why he's like that and how he changes into William the Bloody/Spike (as some people have insinuated already), and I also can't downplay the fact that he was a murderer for over a century. I don't really view him as any one option. He's more of a smattering of different things. Evil, dorky, dedicated, dangerous, obsessive, heart-on-his-sleeve type.

As for the scene in The Initiative, uh. It's funny if you take it at face value and just see it about Spike trying to bite Willow, but the obvious sexual implications of it make it very creepy. I don't know what the writers were trying to do there. :/

 

[zobothehobo]

I'd like to know why you're reacting like I'm attacking you, personally.

I'm not. It's just the way you said it... I mean the phrasing "Angel even says" as if Angel is the authority on all things Spike. He's far from it. And Spike is far from the authority on all things Angel. Plus you took a line of Angel whining and complaining about his own journey with adjusting to his soul and how he feels Spike had it so much easier out of context and stated it as if what Angel felt was what Spike felt.

Did I say that because Angel said it, it's true? No.

"As for the change from s7 BtVS to s5 AtS, Angel even says it only took Spike three weeks of being insane in a basement." Yes. You did. I mean, if you didn't mean Angel said it and it's true, you wouldn't have said anything. And the "even" suggests you mean "Because Angel said it, it's true."

But your beloved Spike isn't all holier than thou either. It's just that we saw some really good character development in Spike in s7, and then, all of a sudden, it's gone. Adjusting or not, it annoyed me, and I'm allowed to be annoyed with that.

1. I resent your language in the first sentence.
2. I'm not saying you're not allowed to be annoyed with it. If you don't like the direction the character was taken, you don't like it and you're allowed your opinion. I just really kind of took issue with the way you've presented your opinions. I admit, my first response to you had a rant about people in general in it... and I said that in the post. Not all of it was directed at you. Actually most of it was just me ranting. My second response had strong language because I really got annoyed quite frankly at the line "Angel even says..." And your suggestion that Spike's soul was somehow easier for him to get over and deal with. It seemed as if you'd forgotten about all the horrible things Angel did after he got his soul. I'm sure that'd be a lot to deal with... getting your soul after not having it, after having done the things these two had done. In the episode Angel in Buffy season 1, Angel says to Buffy "You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done...and care." Same goes for Spike. Angel killed after he got his soul, and he went to a rebellion and acted as if he didn't have his soul with the rest of the fanged four. And you can get over that... yet Spike being harsher in Ats season 5 is something you can't look over? I feel like you're making allowances for Angel you won't make for Spike.

This is a general trend I've observed though... in terms of how they react to getting their soul, people tend to judge Spike harsher. I think it's because we didn't actually see a lot of Angel right after he got his soul, but we did see a lot more than gets recognized. Just because we go through the journey with Spike as it happens doesn't mean he's not going through something similar to what Angel went through and it doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed the same allowances.

I hope I've been able to keep my feeling in check and be more eloquent in this post.

 

[Marisa]

I'd like to know why you're reacting like I'm attacking you, personally.

Did I say that because Angel said it, it's true? No. But your beloved Spike isn't all holier than thou either. It's just that we saw some really good character development in Spike in s7, and then, all of a sudden, it's gone. Adjusting or not, it annoyed me, and I'm allowed to be annoyed with that.

Now, back on topic...

I took Spike being that way as a plot device. Season five seemed a lot lighter so maybe they did that to lighten the season? Having Spike go through his troubles may have also taken away from Angel. I like the way it was though so we get an equal amount of both.

I will admit that Spike did seem a little like old Spike but I liked old Spike and didn't have a problem with it. I think though he was struggling so I can see that as well. I kind of look at it like the season 2 situation with Angel on Angel. All of his former self kind of went out the window. It was interesting but it did seem at times like the Spike situation.

Also I must add your banner is amazing! Anna/Jeremy have always been my favorite 😛

---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 AM ----------

This is a general trend I've observed though... in terms of how they react to getting their soul, people tend to judge Spike harsher. I think it's because we didn't actually see a lot of Angel right after he got his soul, but we did see a lot more than gets recognized. Just because we go through the journey with Spike as it happens doesn't mean he's not going through something similar to what Angel went through and it doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed the same allowances.

I hope I've been able to keep my feeling in check and be more eloquent in this post.

It does seem like a general trend. I think it may be because like you said we were introduced to good Angel. Then when he got his own show we see it isn't really that way. I personally don't say Spike or Angel was worse or better. I look at it as they were both evil still struggle because they are a grey area. I think they both go hand in hand what a relationship they have lol.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Can I choose neither and substitute my own interpretation? I see Spike as someone who totally had the potential to be a big bad; the potential to be terrifying. But they went in the wrong direction with his character. Instead of keeping him evil, they turned him into a mushy puppy dog. Honestly, hooray for character development and all, but I think they ruined his character by the end of Buffy. And then, in Angel, Spike becomes the same conceited jerk he was in s5. All the development in s7 never really did anything good for him. He came back to life and completely reverted to who he was, only he doesn't kill people anymore. I don't much like Spike.

*let the thrashing begin*

Well, to be fair, the majority of Jossverse characters have a potential to be a Big Bad.

Angelus is an awesome character - terrifying and funny as hell. Yet they defanged him and kept in "Buffy's boyfriend" role for the whole season 3.

Dark Willow was a great Big Bad - tragic figure on par with the heroes of Ancient Greek tragedies. Yet, instead of keeping her evil, they revamped her back into a Nice Cute Willow (with very rare occasional streaks of darkness) in season 7.

As to Spike regressing on AtS, I agree, but it was inevitable. Spike regressed to "conceited jerk", as you say it. Buffy regressed to conceited bimbo (in "The Girl in Question"). Then Angel crossed over to BtVS and regressed to complete idiot who trusted a talking dog.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

They had the right to take the characters in whatever way they choose. I would be pissed if someone looked at something I'd written and said I "ruined" one of my own characters.

True, but ... I don't like the Spike character, except maybe in School Hard. Some people say he's "complex," I think he's just not very well thought out as a character. Worse, it seems to me that most of the decisions affecting him, including the decision to have him fall in love with Buffy, were motivated by marketing considerations.

When I first saw him, I figured him as real bad "expletive deleted," the "worst of the worst," the kind of man who'd love to go to jail because he'd be king there as the nastiest of all, who would rape another man as a way to establish dominance. The "real" Spike as I see him, for one thing, couldn't say three words without cursing, and wouldn't know what poetry was.

 

[zobothehobo]

True, but ... I don't like the Spike character, except maybe in School Hard. Some people say he's "complex," I think he's just not very well thought out as a character. Worse, it seems to me that most of the decisions affecting him, including the decision to have him fall in love with Buffy, were motivated by marketing considerations.

When I first saw him, I figured him as real bad "expletive deleted," the "worst of the worst," the kind of man who'd love to go to jail because he'd be king there as the nastiest of all, who would rape another man as a way to establish dominance. The "real" Spike as I see him, for one thing, couldn't say three words without cursing, and wouldn't know what poetry was.

When I see something like this I feel like you've missed the point of my favorite character. The point is, that "real" Spike you refer to in your last sentence... was a tough outer shell... a mirage.. and was hiding a big softy. The point is he got burned for being his soft self and it hurt him so bad, and he decided to be the opposite of that. That "real" Spike persona was an act.

Now you can like that or not. I still don't think it's fair to say the writers "ruined" Spike's character because you don't like it. It's their character and really, honestly, the only person who can say "ruined" is Joss. Like I said up a few posts, I would be pretty annoyed and pissed off if someone started talking about how a direction I took a character of mine "ruined" them. I'm the one who gets to decide that, thank you. And sure, I may be arguing semantics here... but I don't think so. Bottom line: it's Joss' right to take his characters in whatever direction he feels like taking them. You don't have to like it, but you do have to respect that this is what happened, this is the direction Joss took his characters in, and they're still just as much his characters as they were when they started.

*this is me trying to understand, not attacking* Do you not like Spike in anything but School Hard because nothing after School Hard made him look like the second worst vampire in recorded history? Is it because they said one thing and he did another? Or what? Again, I'm trying to understand not trying to attack... it just feels like because it's the one episode where he's remotely scary, and his first episode, that you expected him to be that scary in every other episode and when he's not you completely disregard his story because when he was first introduced, he was this guy. I say disregard, because you refer to the first Spike persona we meet as the "real" one.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

True, but ... I don't like the Spike character, except maybe in School Hard. Some people say he's "complex," I think he's just not very well thought out as a character. Worse, it seems to me that most of the decisions affecting him, including the decision to have him fall in love with Buffy, were motivated by marketing considerations.

When I first saw him, I figured him as real bad "expletive deleted," the "worst of the worst," the kind of man who'd love to go to jail because he'd be king there as the nastiest of all, who would rape another man as a way to establish dominance. The "real" Spike as I see him, for one thing, couldn't say three words without cursing, and wouldn't know what poetry was.

Apparently, Joss saw him very differently. 🙂

From The Write Environment DVD interview with Joss:

Jeff: So when did you realize that Spike was more then just a villain?

Joss: Pretty much when James Marsters auditioned for it. Um, Spike was ya know, Spike was somebody that I loved conceptually and then ya know, James just brought and then kept on bringin'. So, it just, it was a pretty gradual process but it was always happening.

Jeff: A unique transition in that character from just a villain to almost the typical anti-hero. And yet never completely there.

Joss: Well, as a villain he was, ya know the Master that we started with was a straight up villain like, his belief system was just evil. And what was fun about Spike was, I said ok great and, and Mark, Mark Metcalf did a wonderful job, but now we need a villain who, that we can relate to in the way that we're relating to our other people, so that thematically they can become useful. So to introduce this guy who is clearly 'oh I'm such a bad ass' and then have him very tenderly in love with another vampire, so from the very beginning the idea was well he's not just, ya know a cardboard. He's, he's, he's gonna have levels to play. Um, how many I didn't at the time realize, but ah, in a way he, he really didn't change that much. Ah, he's a character that I always liked a little bit more then Angel because-

Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

Joss: He was more evolved, though. He had more of an edge, but at the same time ya know he was, ya know he chose to have a soul.

 

[Willow My Love]

I really got annoyed quite frankly at the line "Angel even says..." And your suggestion that Spike's soul was somehow easier for him to get over and deal with.

I think you're finding the emphasis on the says part of that. This is how I'd say it, " Angel even says..." Speaking on how even Angel observed that, and he can't stand Spike. Does that make more sense? And I never said that Spike's soul was easier for him. I said he lost his character development.

It seemed as if you'd forgotten about all the horrible things Angel did after he got his soul. I'm sure that'd be a lot to deal with...

Sweetie, we're not talking about Angel. This topic is for Spike. Thus why I didn't bring up my qualms with Angel.

And you can get over that... yet Spike being harsher in Ats season 5 is something you can't look over? I feel like you're making allowances for Angel you won't make for Spike.

Okay, I didn't bring up my problems with Angel because this topic is about Spike, not Angel. Okay? You have no idea what allowances I've made or not made for Angel because we've never talked about it. This isn't the place to talk about it either.
=======
I still feel like they could have kept some of the character development of Spike in s7. By the end, I was actually starting to like him, and then he goes to just annoying me on Angel.

I don't know that he was a lover or a killer. I think he started out one, turned to the other, but I don't know if we really got to see enough sides to get a feel for which. Most of the time he's comic relief or Buffy's plaything. It's only in season 5 that we actually start to see Spike, and by then, we still only see one side. His affection for Buffy.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It's only in season 5 that we actually start to see Spike, and by then, we still only see one side. His affection for Buffy.

Isn't that the same with Willow, for example? In season 5 she's all about Tara. This is just an example, my point is, every character has their own thing each season. It doesn't mean they're one sided. So Spike was all about Buffy in a season. So what? That's part of his development, he needed that phase in order to get to the next step. Spike is so gray, that he's different in each season. That's called one sided?

 

[Willow My Love]

Okay guys, this topic is about Spike. Not Willow, not Angel, not Buffy. That's why I've been talking about only Spike. Okay?

Chosen Enemy agrees: He's still NOT one sided!

And that's NOT what I said. I said he was until about s5, IN MY OPINION. Then we begin to see some character development, which goes backwards in AtS s5. THAT'S what I said.

 

[Taake]

Decorum people, lets stick to the thread topic and respect each other's personal opinions or we'll have to close.

Thank you
🙂

 

[Flannen]

I don't think I could label him as either. I have NEVER seen him as #2. There is nothing about his character that makes me feel for him as being a frustrated "poet" and just needing the love of a good woman, at any point in the series. The first statement is more likely to be my answer but I think he is a threat to society for many more reasons than the fact he kills or has killed (both inside and outside of the show itself).

But, given his current position, or at least his position at the end of AtS S5, I don't think he's either. I actually don't really see him as anything. And I don't mean that as horribly as it sounds lol I just mean that he's become something so far removed from anything that makes him individual or original that I don't really consider what he's like. I've said it many times before but after S4, I just have no time for him. One of the issues I have with Spike, is that HE has absolutely no idea who he is. He just becomes whatever he thinks people (i.e. Buffy) want him to be, or what will benefit him the most. I'm not even using that as an attack on Spike so much as a reason why I don't feel attached to him. I don't know who he is, I don't know what he truly stands for and that's because he doesn't.

Maybe he just needs to develop more, and find his own purpose in life, instead of living for other people, and then he'll have some more conviction for me. But as it stands, out of those 2 options, it's #1 for me.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I actually don't really see him as anything.

I understand that this is your opinion of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, it's always baffling to me when people don't like Spike at all, but to say that he is "nothing" at all or stands for nothing when he literally sacrificed his life to save the world and the woman he loves-- I truly don't understand that. I would say that categorically, any character who gives his life for a greater cause immediately has my attention and respect--at the very least.

I just mean that he's become something so far removed from anything that makes him individual or original that I don't really consider what he's like.

He isn't individual or original? The only vampire in history who voluntarily seeks out his soul? And, while still soulless, fights at the side of the slayer repeatedly helping to save her and those she loves?

Maybe he just needs to develop more, and find his own purpose in life, instead of living for other people, and then he'll have some more conviction for me.

Yes, he lives and dies for other people. As a result of his strong convictions. He chose to become good when all he had within him was evil--when he fought back his inner demon so much and so successfully that he was able to earn back his soul. For love. In order to consistently do the right thing. How can a character such as that inspire indifference?

Please don't think I mean any disrespect to you--I guess I am just taken aback...

 

[zobothehobo]

One of the issues I have with Spike, is that HE has absolutely no idea who he is. He just becomes whatever he thinks people (i.e. Buffy) want him to be, or what will benefit him the most. I'm not even using that as an attack on Spike so much as a reason why I don't feel attached to him. I don't know who he is, I don't know what he truly stands for and that's because he doesn't.

Wow. This is what I love about him so much. That he doesn't know who he is. I feel like I do know who he is, because I can see from his actions... but he doesn't. I relate to that. I love watching him as he discovers who he is. I don't think he's anywhere close to finishing figuring out who he is, but he's well on his way. It's cute.

 

[StarSlayer]

Sorry. Gotta defend Spike. It's what I do best. 😉

When I first saw him, I figured him as real bad "expletive deleted," the "worst of the worst," the kind of man who'd love to go to jail because he'd be king there as the nastiest of all, who would rape another man as a way to establish dominance. The "real" Spike as I see him, for one thing, couldn't say three words without cursing, and wouldn't know what poetry was.

I find your observation very interesting because it's such a complete opposite to when I first saw Spike. 🙂 I didn't think he was the "worst of the worst," but he was a bad ass, punk vampire. Commanding, owning a room when he entered, yet humorous. Great traits for a villain. But then, in comes Dru, and Spike melts. He shows a softer side by being concerned over her health. Although he's evil, he's a loyal and loving boyfriend to Dru. Not something I had seen in any evil vampire prior to "School Hard." So, I was intrigued and fascinated with Spike from the start. And when Spike threw the Annoying One in the cage and raised it up for him to burn, I knew Spike wasn't a vampire who played by the rules (except on Halloween of course 😉). He did things his own way and I couldn't wait to see how this character would develop.

One of the issues I have with Spike, is that HE has absolutely no idea who he is. He just becomes whatever he thinks people (i.e. Buffy) want him to be, or what will benefit him the most. I'm not even using that as an attack on Spike so much as a reason why I don't feel attached to him. I don't know who he is, I don't know what he truly stands for and that's because he doesn't.

You're right. Spike doesn't know who he is or what he truly stands for, especially after falling in love with Buffy. But, that's what makes his character (and his journey for that matter) so interesting to me. 🙂 Before he was sired, Spike had no place in the world. People made fun of his poetry, the woman he loved rejected him...he was completely lost. Then, he thinks he's found his way when he meets Dru and is sired into a vampire. He felt strong, powerful, and as he says, "Killing made him feel alive for the very first time." I really think Angelus taught him a lot about killing, based on AtS and the fact that Spike called him his yoda. He learned many things from Angelus, which made him into a violent murderer. I'm not making excusing for Spike's action. I'm just saying that it's part of his character development.

So, after being sired, Spike thinks he's simply a killer and is evil. And when he got the chip, he no longer could be that. He had no real purpose. Then, something unexpected happened. He fell in love with Buffy, the slayer who represents all that is good. I think the scene at the Bronze in "Crush" starts to show how Spike began to question who he really was and what his purpose is. In s6, we see more of that. Spike trying to convince himself he's evil and that he knows he's place in the world. Like in "Smashed," when Spike talks to the girl in the alley. It sounds like he talking more to himself than to the girl. "Just cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm suppose to be too? Cause I'm not. I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil...I'm a killer. That's what I do."

Jumping way ahead (since I don't want to make this post too long, lol), when Spike gets his soul, he's again lost and doesn't know what he truly stands for. That's his whole character development in s7. Can he really find redemption after everything he's done? Does he really deserve redemption? Does he deserve love and forgiveness? Can he finally find his real purpose in this world and become someone he never thought possible? The answer to all these questions (at least in my opinion) is absolutely yes. Buffy believed Spike could become a better man. And he not only became one, but he became a champion, sacrificing himself for the woman he loves and the world. And since coming back to life in AtS, he's now found his purpose and what he stands for. He's a champion, who fights evil.

Seeing Spike start as a villain and progress into a champion was great writing IMO. I enjoyed watching Spike's character development and wouldn't have wanted it any other way. 🙂

So, I guess to answer the OP original question, lol, I can't put a label on Spike as simply a lover or a killer. He's definitely both at certain stages, but I don't think Spike can be described simply as a lover or a killer because while he has a poet's heart, he's a warrior. And while he was evil (a killer), he was loving and loyal. Spike's his own label. How about that, lol? 😀

 

[nmcil12]

1) A vicious serial killer and a terrible danger to society, or
2) A sentimentalist and frustrated poet, whose whole life plan is to find the right female companion?

I think you have actually given an excellent description of the life cycle of Spike - the poet and his great capacity to love is what gave life to Spike the killer and the poet lover still reaching out to find a great love brings him full circle to his revelation to Buffy that in his entire life he had been close to absolutely no one. Even the only person who we know loved him corrupts that love into the hedious nightmare of his vampire mother.

Spike the Killer and Destroyer becomes Spike/William at his trials in Africa and both your descriptions merge.

His scene with Willow - it's of the darkest black humor, one of the most horrific things that can happen to people - being attack physically played as charming comedy. The actors played the scene perfectly and the writing was excellent. The start of Spike going from your "killer" to his ending in "Chosen."

Can't help but think of the tragic reversal of these scene and how it plays in contrast to the events of Season 6.