Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking
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Daniel Osbourne
Townie
But Anya had a soul and did everything she did for a thousand years out of her own free human will. The only demony thing about her were the extra powers. And Anya is constantly talking about her past exploits, it's clear that she doesn't feel a shred of remorse or realize that her actions were unjustified until she's spent quite some time with the Scoobies.
Vampires killed his best friend. Yeah, Xander has an issue with vampires - he's gonna go out on a limb and say they're not good. However it is only vampires - he doesn't seem to have a problem with Faith in S7. Maybe only getting mad at vampires is hypocritical, but it's not the sex that makes the difference.
Plus, he did eventually get over the whole thing with Spike and Angel.
Plus, he did eventually get over the whole thing with Spike and Angel.
We don't know that. In The Wish Anya becomes human again, maybe then she got her soul back too, maybe Vengence demons are changed when they're demonised?
Darn there's no Anya icon!
Sure we do. We can call it a soul or whatever but Anyanka 2.0 obviously has free will, she can feel remorse and can refrain from killing people if she wants to. Which makes Anya a complete psychopath since she killed all those people over the years despite having free will and all. She even regularly makes jokes about her murders. IMO, Anya is an early example of the complete moral bankruptcy of ME and the idea of Xander hooking up with a mass murderer never made any sense, let alone the idea of presenting her murders as funny. Yet this is what happened.
Now, I actually find Anya funny but I really can't reconcile her past with her presence in the Scooby gang. It's just wildly out of character for Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles to accept someone like that so easily. But hey, she is funny, so her murders are somehow not much of an issue (see also Harmony, K. or Andrew W.).
caitaintdead
caiters gonna cait
Okay, another question which often gets overlooked... Do you think it was wrong for Faith to take the girls to The Bronze? Personally I think it was a silly thing to do in the first place. And the fact that Giles was agreeing with the idea is so OOC to me. He was always telling Buffy that partying when you have a calling is a bad idea, so why would he think it was okay to let these girls loose in a bringer heavy town? And to a degree, letting Faith loose in a cop-crazy town when she was a wanted fugitive. He was there when he saw how the police were acting.
I think there's a decent argument either way. Faith's right in saying that the Potentials would be better off if they could relax a little bit, but it did put them all in danger - though that's hardly Faith's fault. I think that even if Faith was wrong, Buffy still horribly overreacted and her punching Faith was just plain out of line.
I didn't like what they did to Faith's character in general in S7. She had an amazing arc on Angel, and is crossed over to Buffy to be a punching bag, "prove" Buffy is always right, and talk like she was dropped off of the set of Yo MTV Raps.
The only thing I really loved was her talk with The First/The Mayor.
As for the question being asked, I felt that it was just the writers reverting back to the Buffy=Good Faith=Bad of the earlier seasons and didn't allow her to show her growth. I admired Faith's restraint in not hitting back TWICE.
Its just mind boggling that Eliza was in 21 episodes of Buffy, and 5 episodes of Angel, yet she was granted a much better growth opportunity. It just felt inconsistent to her character.
The only thing I really loved was her talk with The First/The Mayor.
As for the question being asked, I felt that it was just the writers reverting back to the Buffy=Good Faith=Bad of the earlier seasons and didn't allow her to show her growth. I admired Faith's restraint in not hitting back TWICE.
Its just mind boggling that Eliza was in 21 episodes of Buffy, and 5 episodes of Angel, yet she was granted a much better growth opportunity. It just felt inconsistent to her character.
VisionGirl
I totally agree about the way she talks- that bugs me crazy!
No I liked Faith in season 7, it was great how much she'd grown. And I think Giles had learned over the years that it was necessary for the girls to have some fun.
As for the Wishverse well excepting the 'D'Hoffryn was behind it all theory' I would say that this guy became a demon, maybe he was evil and chose this path much like Olaf the troll
As for the Wishverse well excepting the 'D'Hoffryn was behind it all theory' I would say that this guy became a demon, maybe he was evil and chose this path much like Olaf the troll
Daniel Osbourne
Townie
Analysis of the "Empty Places" fight!
Okay, I'm gonna take this line by line:
BUFFY
Look, I know what you're thinking, but I had a visit at the school today from Caleb.
DAWN
Buffy, why didn't you"”
BUFFY
I'm fine. I mean, it wasn't fun, but I'm fine. I'm better than fine. I"”I figured something out. He kept making all this noise about the school.
ROBIN WOOD
Is it that seal again?
WILLOW
Do we need to try shutting it again?
BUFFY
No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.
Buffy's breakthrough here is sound.
FAITH
(standing beside Robin Wood with her arms crossed) Or, in the alternative, how 'bout...we don't? I mean, it's a neat theory, B, but I'm not going back in that place, not without proof, and neither should you and neither should they.
Faith should know by now that Buffy's plans are nearly always excellent. At least this time, there's a valid reason to go to the vineyard beyond "let's go kill Caleb". That said, Faith also has a good reason; she doesn't want anyone to get hurt.
BUFFY
I'm not saying it's gonna be easy.
ROBIN WOOD
I think Faith had the floor.
Shut up, Robin! I know you're in lust with Faith, but she was done talking!
FAITH
Maybe it ends OK the way you wanna play it, but maybe it doesn't. And right now, I don't think I want you playin' the odds.
Again, Faith is being reasonable. She is clearly concerned for Buffy and the others all through this conversation.
BUFFY
Did you come here to fight?
Now, Buffy, you're the one who punched Faith in the face not ten minutes ago. Cool down.
FAITH
Listen, we're fighters, all of us, but you gotta give me something to fight, something real, not"”
Still liking Faith's argument...
GILES
(softly) Windmills. (looks at Buffy)
BUFFY
There is something there.
GILES
Maybe. But we can't be sure of that. This is a hell of a lot to ask.
ROBIN WOOD
Too much.
Giles has been shown time and time again that the plans he always disapproves of work out well in the end. Hasn't he learned his lesson? And what do he and Robin suggest they do, be sitting ducks?
BUFFY
(grinning nervously, looks around) I"”I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this"” exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what"” suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?
Exactly. The trip to the vineyard in Dirty Girls ended badly due to lack of knowledge concerning Caleb's true power, not an error in judgement. Now they're better prepared to go face him. Buffy can be trusted to prepare her team for battle. I mean, isn't the rocket launcher still around?
GILES
Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed.
She can't trust YOU, Rupert my friend. Everyone else has been totally loyal to her and to each other while you were trying to kill Spike.
BUFFY
Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?
Knowing how ruthless Giles can be, wouldn't be surprised.
GILES
(rolls his eyes, sighs) Oh, come on.
Don't deny it. You wanted Spike (and Andrew) out of the way, it's really obvious.
RONA
You know what? I am sick of your deal with this Spike guy. This isn't about him. This is about you. You're being reckless.
They weren't really talking about Spike. Spike was related to the trust issue. And Buffy is totally not being reckless. Again, Caleb ambushed + rocket launcher = WIN for the Scoobs! Sadly, they never let her get this far in the planning stages.
BUFFY
(steps back) What?
RONA
You are! I don't even know you, and I can tell! You are so obsessed with beating Caleb, you are willing to jump into any plan without thinking.
You're not letting her detail the plan. I realize Rona's arm is broken, but she needs to shape up or ship out. Or die.
BUFFY
(through gritted teeth) That's not what I'm doing.
KENNEDY
(stands, walks up to Buffy) Well, that's how it feels to us. People are dying.
Fair enough. The loss of Molly and Diane was not fun for group morale. But Buffy won't be taken by surprise this time.
WILLOW
(stands, walks up to Kennedy) Kennedy...
KENNEDY
(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?
Because she's awesome? And Willow's best friend?
WILLOW
(softly, sadly) I'm not.
BUFFY
What do you mean, you're not?
WILLOW
With everything that's happened, I"” (shrugs) I'm worried about your judgment.
One bad decision that Buffy couldn't even have known was a bad decision and now it's all this?
BUFFY
(looks around) Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. (Xander looks away) It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you.
Tough, but fair. No one has ever complained about Buffy's leadership skills before, since they're GOOD. Without Buffy being a dictator, the fight against Glory, for one, would never have been won.
ANYA
(calmly) And it's automatically you. (looks at Buffy) You really do think you're better than we are.
BUFFY
No, I"”
Um, yeah, Anya. Buffy is better than YOU. Last I checked, Buffy never thought joking about death that you caused was funny.
ANYA
But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy.
BUFFY
I"”
ANYA
But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.
Shut. The. Hell. Up. Buffy has worked SO HARD to get to where she is. And she isn't luckier than anyone. Buffy's sent the last seven years wanting to be normal. Stupid Anya.
BUFFY
I've gotten us this far.
XANDER
But not without a price.
BUFFY
Xander"”
XANDER
I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... (shakes his head) 'cause I just don't.
Xander just lost his eye. I'm giving him a break.
BUFFY
Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again.
Best line of this episode. If the others were even listening, they would see that Buffy is willing to hammer out the details. And they apparently forget that there is no plan other than the one Buffy just thought up.
GILES
We are clearly demonstrating that we are not together on this!
Since when is Giles five?
BUFFY
(commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line! I'm still in charge here.
Okay, ouch. Buffy has every right to be frustrated, but she probably should've thought that zinger out first. Saying things in that fashion isn't going to make her friends.
RONA
Why is that, exactly?
BUFFY
Because I'm the slayer.
No, it's because she's saved all your butts a hundred times over. Or would Rona rather that Buffy had left her to be mauled by the Bringers at the bus station?
RONA
And isn't Faith a slayer, too?
FAITH
(caught off guard) What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. So not what I meant. I'm not in charge chick. I think B here needs to just...chill out for a little bit, take a siesta or something. But I'm not the one you want.
Yeah, but none of you really know what Faith is like as a leader. And Buffy's the reckless one? I like that Faith immediately tries to persuade them not to choose her.
KENNEDY
Maybe we need a vote... to see who wants Faith to have a turn in charge.
BUFFY
(sternly) No.
KENNEDY
No, what?
BUFFY
No. You don't get to vote until I've had my chance to pal around, you know, get everybody drunk. See, I didn't get this was a popularity contest. I should have equal time to bake them cookies, braid their hair"”
FAITH
Learn their names?
Okay, Buffy, this is unfair. Faith was actively trying to prevent Amanda from drinking earlier. But she's got a point that with all the crap that's been going down, she hasn't really had a chance to truly interact with the Potentials.
BUFFY
(laughs) You're just lovin' this, aren't you?
FAITH
You have no idea what I'm feeling.
BUFFY
(low, mean) Come in here, take everything that I have... You did it before. Did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you used to kill people for fun? Hey, you guys think that's nifty?
Buffy has every reason to be mad at Faith, considering she wasn't present during Faith's rehabilitation in Angel: The Series. She should give her some benefit of the doubt though.
GILES
Buffy, that's enough!
Private conversation, much? (I know I'm being mean to Giles, but I kinda hate him this season.)
FAITH
I didn't come here to take anything away from you, but I'm not gonna be your little lapdog, either. I came here to beat the other guy, to do right, however it works. I don't know if I can lead. But the real question is...can you follow?
Points to Faith for not responding to Buffy's verbal assault in a negative way. Buffy's not asking anyone to be a lapdog, she's asking them to listen. And help, which this argument is not.
ROBIN WOOD
So we vote.
Since when does he get to decide anything?
BUFFY
Wait. Guys"”
I can't watch you just throw away everything that"” (looks at Xander and at Dawn, who's not meeting her glance; Buffy holds her head up high) I know I'm right about this. I just need a little"” I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.
A little rude and tactless, but Buffy really is a great leader! And since when is she not right about intuition?
DAWN
(stands, walks up to Buffy, softly) Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.
Dawn's position makes a lot more sense when you consider that some of the group (Giles, Wood, Rona, Anya) are so angry at Buffy that nothing is going to get done with Buffy in the house. Although, if I were Dawn, I'd ask those four to leave instead of Buffy.
RONA
Ding dong, the witch is dead.
DAWN
(low, angrily) Shut your mouth.
You go, Dawn!
So, my conclusions? Everyone is right in some way, except for Giles, Wood, Rona and Anya. It's like Dead Man's Party, except here a lot of the arguers are unreasonable.
Okay, I'm gonna take this line by line:
BUFFY
Look, I know what you're thinking, but I had a visit at the school today from Caleb.
DAWN
Buffy, why didn't you"”
BUFFY
I'm fine. I mean, it wasn't fun, but I'm fine. I'm better than fine. I"”I figured something out. He kept making all this noise about the school.
ROBIN WOOD
Is it that seal again?
WILLOW
Do we need to try shutting it again?
BUFFY
No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.
Buffy's breakthrough here is sound.
FAITH
(standing beside Robin Wood with her arms crossed) Or, in the alternative, how 'bout...we don't? I mean, it's a neat theory, B, but I'm not going back in that place, not without proof, and neither should you and neither should they.
Faith should know by now that Buffy's plans are nearly always excellent. At least this time, there's a valid reason to go to the vineyard beyond "let's go kill Caleb". That said, Faith also has a good reason; she doesn't want anyone to get hurt.
BUFFY
I'm not saying it's gonna be easy.
ROBIN WOOD
I think Faith had the floor.
Shut up, Robin! I know you're in lust with Faith, but she was done talking!
FAITH
Maybe it ends OK the way you wanna play it, but maybe it doesn't. And right now, I don't think I want you playin' the odds.
Again, Faith is being reasonable. She is clearly concerned for Buffy and the others all through this conversation.
BUFFY
Did you come here to fight?
Now, Buffy, you're the one who punched Faith in the face not ten minutes ago. Cool down.
FAITH
Listen, we're fighters, all of us, but you gotta give me something to fight, something real, not"”
Still liking Faith's argument...
GILES
(softly) Windmills. (looks at Buffy)
BUFFY
There is something there.
GILES
Maybe. But we can't be sure of that. This is a hell of a lot to ask.
ROBIN WOOD
Too much.
Giles has been shown time and time again that the plans he always disapproves of work out well in the end. Hasn't he learned his lesson? And what do he and Robin suggest they do, be sitting ducks?
BUFFY
(grinning nervously, looks around) I"”I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this"” exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what"” suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?
Exactly. The trip to the vineyard in Dirty Girls ended badly due to lack of knowledge concerning Caleb's true power, not an error in judgement. Now they're better prepared to go face him. Buffy can be trusted to prepare her team for battle. I mean, isn't the rocket launcher still around?
GILES
Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed.
She can't trust YOU, Rupert my friend. Everyone else has been totally loyal to her and to each other while you were trying to kill Spike.
BUFFY
Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?
Knowing how ruthless Giles can be, wouldn't be surprised.
GILES
(rolls his eyes, sighs) Oh, come on.
Don't deny it. You wanted Spike (and Andrew) out of the way, it's really obvious.
RONA
You know what? I am sick of your deal with this Spike guy. This isn't about him. This is about you. You're being reckless.
They weren't really talking about Spike. Spike was related to the trust issue. And Buffy is totally not being reckless. Again, Caleb ambushed + rocket launcher = WIN for the Scoobs! Sadly, they never let her get this far in the planning stages.
BUFFY
(steps back) What?
RONA
You are! I don't even know you, and I can tell! You are so obsessed with beating Caleb, you are willing to jump into any plan without thinking.
You're not letting her detail the plan. I realize Rona's arm is broken, but she needs to shape up or ship out. Or die.
BUFFY
(through gritted teeth) That's not what I'm doing.
KENNEDY
(stands, walks up to Buffy) Well, that's how it feels to us. People are dying.
Fair enough. The loss of Molly and Diane was not fun for group morale. But Buffy won't be taken by surprise this time.
WILLOW
(stands, walks up to Kennedy) Kennedy...
KENNEDY
(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?
Because she's awesome? And Willow's best friend?
WILLOW
(softly, sadly) I'm not.
BUFFY
What do you mean, you're not?
WILLOW
With everything that's happened, I"” (shrugs) I'm worried about your judgment.
One bad decision that Buffy couldn't even have known was a bad decision and now it's all this?
BUFFY
(looks around) Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. (Xander looks away) It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you.
Tough, but fair. No one has ever complained about Buffy's leadership skills before, since they're GOOD. Without Buffy being a dictator, the fight against Glory, for one, would never have been won.
ANYA
(calmly) And it's automatically you. (looks at Buffy) You really do think you're better than we are.
BUFFY
No, I"”
Um, yeah, Anya. Buffy is better than YOU. Last I checked, Buffy never thought joking about death that you caused was funny.
ANYA
But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy.
BUFFY
I"”
ANYA
But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.
Shut. The. Hell. Up. Buffy has worked SO HARD to get to where she is. And she isn't luckier than anyone. Buffy's sent the last seven years wanting to be normal. Stupid Anya.
BUFFY
I've gotten us this far.
XANDER
But not without a price.
BUFFY
Xander"”
XANDER
I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... (shakes his head) 'cause I just don't.
Xander just lost his eye. I'm giving him a break.
BUFFY
Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again.
Best line of this episode. If the others were even listening, they would see that Buffy is willing to hammer out the details. And they apparently forget that there is no plan other than the one Buffy just thought up.
GILES
We are clearly demonstrating that we are not together on this!
Since when is Giles five?
BUFFY
(commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line! I'm still in charge here.
Okay, ouch. Buffy has every right to be frustrated, but she probably should've thought that zinger out first. Saying things in that fashion isn't going to make her friends.
RONA
Why is that, exactly?
BUFFY
Because I'm the slayer.
No, it's because she's saved all your butts a hundred times over. Or would Rona rather that Buffy had left her to be mauled by the Bringers at the bus station?
RONA
And isn't Faith a slayer, too?
FAITH
(caught off guard) What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. So not what I meant. I'm not in charge chick. I think B here needs to just...chill out for a little bit, take a siesta or something. But I'm not the one you want.
Yeah, but none of you really know what Faith is like as a leader. And Buffy's the reckless one? I like that Faith immediately tries to persuade them not to choose her.
KENNEDY
Maybe we need a vote... to see who wants Faith to have a turn in charge.
BUFFY
(sternly) No.
KENNEDY
No, what?
BUFFY
No. You don't get to vote until I've had my chance to pal around, you know, get everybody drunk. See, I didn't get this was a popularity contest. I should have equal time to bake them cookies, braid their hair"”
FAITH
Learn their names?
Okay, Buffy, this is unfair. Faith was actively trying to prevent Amanda from drinking earlier. But she's got a point that with all the crap that's been going down, she hasn't really had a chance to truly interact with the Potentials.
BUFFY
(laughs) You're just lovin' this, aren't you?
FAITH
You have no idea what I'm feeling.
BUFFY
(low, mean) Come in here, take everything that I have... You did it before. Did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you used to kill people for fun? Hey, you guys think that's nifty?
Buffy has every reason to be mad at Faith, considering she wasn't present during Faith's rehabilitation in Angel: The Series. She should give her some benefit of the doubt though.
GILES
Buffy, that's enough!
Private conversation, much? (I know I'm being mean to Giles, but I kinda hate him this season.)
FAITH
I didn't come here to take anything away from you, but I'm not gonna be your little lapdog, either. I came here to beat the other guy, to do right, however it works. I don't know if I can lead. But the real question is...can you follow?
Points to Faith for not responding to Buffy's verbal assault in a negative way. Buffy's not asking anyone to be a lapdog, she's asking them to listen. And help, which this argument is not.
ROBIN WOOD
So we vote.
Since when does he get to decide anything?
BUFFY
Wait. Guys"”
I can't watch you just throw away everything that"” (looks at Xander and at Dawn, who's not meeting her glance; Buffy holds her head up high) I know I'm right about this. I just need a little"” I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.
A little rude and tactless, but Buffy really is a great leader! And since when is she not right about intuition?
DAWN
(stands, walks up to Buffy, softly) Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.
Dawn's position makes a lot more sense when you consider that some of the group (Giles, Wood, Rona, Anya) are so angry at Buffy that nothing is going to get done with Buffy in the house. Although, if I were Dawn, I'd ask those four to leave instead of Buffy.
RONA
Ding dong, the witch is dead.
DAWN
(low, angrily) Shut your mouth.
You go, Dawn!
So, my conclusions? Everyone is right in some way, except for Giles, Wood, Rona and Anya. It's like Dead Man's Party, except here a lot of the arguers are unreasonable.
Z
zobothehobo
Way to go with this! I agree with everything you said except that Dawn was somewhat justified in asking Buffy to leave. Her loyalties should have been to Buffy without even a question.
sk
Hey, this is pretty close to what I try to say about this. Especially the part where Buffy actually don't have any plan YET. That's still up for discussion if anyone had cared.
VisionGirl
Excellent analysis!!
Misty
♥
Like I've said before, I don't understand how any of them could kick her out. And I don't think Dawn had any good reason kick her own sister, who died for her, out of their house. Buffy was trying her best to protect them all, and it was hard because she was pretty much the only one who knew how to fight the bringers.
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
Connor Holtz
Jasmine's Champion
In that bolded part you say protect them but you're wrong. This whole thing came about because Buffy had an insane idea to bring the girls back to the vineyard where several girls where killed the night before and Xander lost his eye.
zobothehobo
Scooby
There are ALWAYS casualties in war. And if they weren't ready to give up their lives for the cause... oh well. They were the chosen ones. They HAD to be ready to give up their lives for the cause. If they wanted Buffy's protection, they should have just listened to her and fell in line. Or they could leave where the bringers would kill them all. I know that sounds harsh... but the situation was harsh. And Buffy was willing to die for the cause at 16... why weren't they?
Connor Holtz
Jasmine's Champion
Really? Wow. I need to learn not to post in these Empty Place threads. (That's not directed at you but me cause I hate debating this topic lol) They are 14-16 year old girls who were plucked out of their homes for God knows what reason. Not soldiers who CHOSE to go to war. Also, not Chosen. You have to be activated to be chosen. Right now, they are merely potentially chosen. If the plan was a good one, yes, they should be willing to die like in "Chosen" but her plan then was LUDICROUS. They had no business EVER getting in the same room with Caleb. Dude was a beast. As we seen in the next episode, Buffy should have and did go alone as she didn't even need to interact with him. She slipped in and right by him without any blows. So why get girls killed for something that required no casualties?
zobothehobo
Scooby
They were chosen. They were the chosen few... from them one was to be chosen to be THE next slayer... but they were chosen. You can't argue they weren't chosen or they weren't special because that was kind of the whole point.
And how was it ludicrous? What part of her plan wasn't justified? How was her reasoning flawed? As has been stated before in this thread, she said she was willing to work out the details with everyone... but as it stood the plan she had presented was "Caleb's guarding something at the vineyard and I say we take it from him." She didn't say how or who would go... She just said "Caleb's guarding something at the vineyard... and that's his power that we need to take back." She was right... but that's besides the point. Her logic was completely rational and justified to me. Maybe if someone could explain to me how it wasn't, I'd understand the actions of the other characters in this episode better... but as it stands now, I see this episode as a giant heap of crap from the other characters... like they were worried and scared and they took it all out on Buffy where it didn't need to be.
And how was it ludicrous? What part of her plan wasn't justified? How was her reasoning flawed? As has been stated before in this thread, she said she was willing to work out the details with everyone... but as it stood the plan she had presented was "Caleb's guarding something at the vineyard and I say we take it from him." She didn't say how or who would go... She just said "Caleb's guarding something at the vineyard... and that's his power that we need to take back." She was right... but that's besides the point. Her logic was completely rational and justified to me. Maybe if someone could explain to me how it wasn't, I'd understand the actions of the other characters in this episode better... but as it stands now, I see this episode as a giant heap of crap from the other characters... like they were worried and scared and they took it all out on Buffy where it didn't need to be.
Connor Holtz
Jasmine's Champion
you do remember what happened in Dirty Girls, right? That's why it isn't justified. If Caleb can kill three girls, neutral two slayers, make a vampire look like a piece of crap without even breaking a sweat and can take out your best friend's eye, it isn't rational to think anything would be different by going there again.
FYI, as I said before the thing he guarded was easily taken by Buffy without any interaction from Caleb so why get a bunch of peeps killed for no reason. There is none other than the fact Buffy was clearly not thinking at this point. The fact no one mentions it again, shows no one cares. I find it funny when we the audience care more about a fifteen minute scene on the show the characters who "lived" it. 😉
Anywoo, peace I'm outie.
FYI, as I said before the thing he guarded was easily taken by Buffy without any interaction from Caleb so why get a bunch of peeps killed for no reason. There is none other than the fact Buffy was clearly not thinking at this point. The fact no one mentions it again, shows no one cares. I find it funny when we the audience care more about a fifteen minute scene on the show the characters who "lived" it. 😉
Anywoo, peace I'm outie.
zobothehobo
Scooby
But what happened in Dirty Girls was different. She didn't have much reason to go fight him and it SCREAMED trap. Also, they had NO idea who they were up against. They were so much more prepared in Empty Places. She knew what they were up against, Caleb wouldn't be expecting them, and she had a reason for going there.
Connor Holtz
Jasmine's Champion
I'm not understanding your point...
What would have been different? Just because they knew he was an unstoppable killing machine? How does it make it any better? Everything that happened in that episode clearly showed she wasn't prepared. She wanted to go to the vineyard because of what Faith said at the Bronze. I'm sorry but Buffy wasn't thinking.
You still haven't answered my original question
Why get girls killed for something that required NO casualties? Buffy was clearly qualified to do this all on her own.
What would have been different? Just because they knew he was an unstoppable killing machine? How does it make it any better? Everything that happened in that episode clearly showed she wasn't prepared. She wanted to go to the vineyard because of what Faith said at the Bronze. I'm sorry but Buffy wasn't thinking.
You still haven't answered my original question
Why get girls killed for something that required NO casualties? Buffy was clearly qualified to do this all on her own.