Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

[zobothehobo]

I honestly think if maybe they had talked about who would go to the vineyard... they would have decided Buffy go alone. Like I said, she didn't say how they get what Caleb had or who would go... she just said he's got something, and they needed it.

 

[Connor Holtz]

I'm pretty sure Buffy said that they would all go to the vineyard. I mean if her going alone was an option, she should have said so right off the bat. No one would have been upset if she volunteered to go alone.

So, I'll agree with you there, in a middle of the way type deal. Had they given B a chance to explain and had she offered to go alone, that would have been a much preferable solution.

As it is now though, I can't complain. No one got hurt, Buffy got the Scythe and at the end, The First's plans were stopped. 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

yep. Everything worked out! Thank God for Spike, huh? haha

 

[Connor Holtz]

yep. Everything worked out! Thank God for Spike, huh? haha

Amen to that! Spike's awesome. That's one strong positive, we got that endearing scene in "Touched"... could you imagine not getting that scene? Not me.

 

[Icarium]

But what happened in Dirty Girls was different. She didn't have much reason to go fight him and it SCREAMED trap. Also, they had NO idea who they were up against. They were so much more prepared in Empty Places. She knew what they were up against, Caleb wouldn't be expecting them, and she had a reason for going there.

Why wouldn't Caleb be expecting them? The First can spy on the Scooby meetings, you know. And Caleb was still vastly stronger than Buffy. Without the Scythe of Plot Convenience he would have kicked their asses once again. Unless Willow had managed to blow him to pieces with magic but in this scenario there is no need for anyone else to face Caleb anyway.

And how was it ludicrous? What part of her plan wasn't justified?

I don't know...all of it? Her idea that Caleb was protecting something in the vineyard made no sense considering he had lured her there. Would he really have lured her in a place where she could be dangerous to him? Well, since morons were writing the season it turns out that the answer is yes, but Buffy couldn't know that. Her behaviour is pretty much the equivalent of saying in the beginning of Becoming I "Hey, guys, I think Angel would go for that mysterious rock that was unearthed recently. Let's go to the museum. Trust me! I read the script...I mean, I had a premonition."

 

[saturn5]

Why wouldn't Caleb be expecting them? The First can spy on the Scooby meetings, you know. And Caleb was still vastly stronger than Buffy. Without the Scythe of Plot Convenience he would have kicked their asses once again. Unless Willow had managed to blow him to pieces with magic but in this scenario there is no need for anyone else to face Caleb anyway.



I don't know...all of it? Her idea that Caleb was protecting something in the vineyard made no sense considering he had lured her there. Would he really have lured her in a place where she could be dangerous to him? Well, since morons were writing the season it turns out that the answer is yes, but Buffy couldn't know that. Her behaviour is pretty much the equivalent of saying in the beginning of Becoming I "Hey, guys, I think Angel would go for that mysterious rock that was unearthed recently. Let's go to the museum. Trust me! I read the script...I mean, I had a premonition."

Frankly I think Buffy is pretty much out of ideas at this point. No one's plans and tactics are perfect in the Buffyverse but they do the best they can

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

The point I was trying to make is that Buffy is willing to talk strategy and go into the vineyard with an actual gameplan this time. She isn't asking anyone to die, because this time, they can better prepare themselves for Caleb's strength.

Once again, I don't understand why they never broke out that rocket launcher. We know it's around, because Buffy tried to kill Wood with it in Him...

 

[Justme]

.

Once again, I don't understand why they never broke out that rocket launcher. We know it's around, because Buffy tried to kill Wood with it in Him...

It would be fairly risky. That weird demon thing was in a good position for it, didn't know what it was so didn't react and he seemed pretty slow moving iirc. I think that given they were underground and small plus Caleb being quite agile with the ability to wrestle it away pretty easily... well it just isn't a good idea.

---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

As for empty places. I was glad that they threw her out. She was annoying the hell out of me for at least 5 episodes previous.

 

[TheVoid68]

They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

In Dirty Girls, Buffy took everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and got her arse kicked. In Empty Places, Buffy proposes taking everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and expects good results.

Ergo, Buffy is insane.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

In Dirty Girls, Buffy took everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and got her arse kicked. In Empty Places, Buffy proposes taking everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and expects good results.

Ergo, Buffy is insane.

Maybe she's not insane, maybe it's just the fact that she's under a huge pressure. Poor girl... getting insane out of pressure....

 

[TheVoid68]

Yes, poor Buffy, having to be in charge all the time... except when they suggest that she not be in charge for a little bit, or at least listen to anyone else's suggestions, she throws a hissy fit and kicks herself out of the house. If she's under pressure, she should let her friends take the pressure off her instead of being unreasonably controlling and paranoid.

 

[saturn5]

Maybe she's not insane, maybe it's just the fact that she's under a huge pressure. Poor girl... getting insane out of pressure....

It's a tough call, are you General Haig at the Somme sending men forward to their deaths for no gain or are you General Cota on D-Day, attacking the same strongpoint again and again and eventually making the vital breakthrough? Are you Custer refusing the offer of artillery and machine guns which would have saved his men but if you'd taken them it would have made you so slow you'd never have caught up with the Indians in the first place?

Impossible to know who's right or wrong, I can certainly see both sides of the argument

 

[Kana]

Yes, poor Buffy, having to be in charge all the time... except when they suggest that she not be in charge for a little bit, or at least listen to anyone else's suggestions, she throws a hissy fit and kicks herself out of the house. If she's under pressure, she should let her friends take the pressure off her instead of being unreasonably controlling and paranoid.

In Buffy's defense, she's trying to be a leader and when she's asked to step aside, she does. I agree she didn't need to kick herself out (most likely because she isn't willing to follow Faith if it will apparently lead them into disaster) but she does empower Faith:

"Don't be afraid to lead them, whether you wanted it or not...Their lives are yours"

There was nothing hateful or aggressive about her assertion to Faith. I don't believe Buffy got it right all the time in Season 7 but I actually don't doubt she was really thinking about the mission...and Spike but that's part of Buffy's Mode De Vie.

 

[Justme]

Okay Okay this is what I don't get.

Buffy is the bestest slayer ever of all time and like simply at least 270000 times betterer than any other slayer EVER ok? This is stated time and time again and the reasoning behind it is that she has these close relationships. She loves and is loved. She supports and is supported.

Then all of a sudden it's like "D'oh actually the counsel etc were right all along, I SHOULD be isolated and single minded".

The way she changes at the end of seven without then having any real resolution seems to contradict the entire rest of the show.

To take it un petit step further and look at it from a feminist view point... Buffy was a silly emotional girl all along when the going gets tough the boys (counsel, archetypical masculine attitudes) know best.

 

[zobothehobo]

Okay Okay this is what I don't get.

Buffy is the bestest slayer ever of all time and like simply at least 270000 times betterer than any other slayer EVER ok? This is stated time and time again and the reasoning behind it is that she has these close relationships. She loves and is loved. She supports and is supported.

Then all of a sudden it's like "D'oh actually the counsel etc were right all along, I SHOULD be isolated and single minded".

The way she changes at the end of seven without then having any real resolution seems to contradict the entire rest of the show.

To take it un petit step further and look at it from a feminist view point... Buffy was a silly emotional girl all along when the going gets tough the boys (counsel, archetypical masculine attitudes) know best.

I don't think she's isolated or single minded at the end of season 7. She just understands the gravity of the situation and understand that everyone involved is in her hands. As she says to Faith "Their lives are yours now." She understood their lives were hers.

 

[Justme]

I don't think she's isolated or single minded at the end of season 7. She just understands the gravity of the situation and understand that everyone involved is in her hands. As she says to Faith "Their lives are yours now." She understood their lives were hers.

Yes which is fairly uppity isn't it? How is she not isolated? Besides Spike what relationships does she have? She is very uncaring toward her friends and the people she supposedly loves most. I just think the entire attitude change at the end makes a mockery of the rest of the shows "message".

 

[Kana]

Perhaps this the ultimate message. There are no easy answers. Buffy's strength was always her connections with her friends and those she cares about. Also it's about the value of individual lives. Unfortunately this can also be a disadvantage.

There always going to be pros and cons of any extreme, mistakes will be made.

 

[Justme]

Perhaps this the ultimate message. There are no easy answers. Buffy's strength was always her connections with her friends and those she cares about. Also it's about the value of individual lives. Unfortunately this can also be a disadvantage.

There always going to be pros and cons of any extreme, mistakes will be made.

Yes which is fine, only it isn't really is it? I mean I know Buffy at points worked some very nice messages into it's narrative but the whole season 7 arc as much as I loved it as entertainment was pretty shallow. Yes there were messages in there but they were spelled out and rammed down our throats without the usual subtlety.

The whole pros/cons list of Buffys relationships was a theme throughout the show from the start, Season 7 seemed to throw all that out for the drama. I enjoyed Season 7 very much but it did contradict the whole "feminist" message of the show no matter which way you look at it.

I do love Buffy but it isn't Shakespeare, there is only so much there.

 

[Icarium]

Okay Okay this is what I don't get.

Buffy is the bestest slayer ever of all time and like simply at least 270000 times betterer than any other slayer EVER ok? This is stated time and time again and the reasoning behind it is that she has these close relationships. She loves and is loved. She supports and is supported.

Then all of a sudden it's like "D'oh actually the counsel etc were right all along, I SHOULD be isolated and single minded".

The way she changes at the end of seven without then having any real resolution seems to contradict the entire rest of the show.

My explanation - no writer gave a damn about Buffy in S7, it was all about glorifying Spike. Look at it from this angle and everything that happens starts to make sense. Not "ah, a well told story" sense, mind you, more like "so, that was why they wrote this crap".

Okay, okay, I am bitter, I admit it. But I think you nailed it. Many of the most important messages are completely turned around in the final seasons. At first nerds and losers were heroes. In S6 nerds become not just the bad guys but are ruthlessly mocked too. Early on, research was absolutely paramount. In S7 instead of that Buffy has premonitions or simply goes for plans that work only because the writers say so, Willow sucks at Latin (really, writers, the girl who used to play with medical books when she was little?) and her idea of hacking is using google, while Giles is braindead.

And just as you mentioned, the message about Buffy becomes the exact opposite. Previously her friends were her vital support system. Many an episode make it very clear that without their help and emotional support Buffy would either be dead or not be nearly as effective. to balance this there are examples of Buffy's feelings making her unable to do her job properly, most obvious of which is the Angelus arc. Still, overall, it was very clear that the Scooby bonds of friendship were supposed to be regarded a very positive thing.

In S7 everyone who doesn't have superpowers is regarded as a burden on Buffy's neck and those who do have seem to be useful to her only because of that. Spike is the only one allowed to give Buffy any emotional support and even that is made in a rather stupid fashion that made me almost feel sorry for Spike (and I loathe S7 Spike).

They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

In Dirty Girls, Buffy took everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and got her arse kicked. In Empty Places, Buffy proposes taking everyone to the Vineyard to face Caleb, and expects good results.

Ergo, Buffy is insane.

Well said.

I don't think she's isolated or single minded at the end of season 7. She just understands the gravity of the situation and understand that everyone involved is in her hands.

I might have bought that, had Buffy not being in a life and death situation basically every day since she found out she was a Slayer.

 

[zobothehobo]

I might have bought that, had Buffy not being in a life and death situation basically every day since she found out she was a Slayer.

But this situation was different. It was bigger. In her words, she'd fought evil before... in season 7 she was fighting the reason they exist. It was a different kind of life and death situation. She was fighting evil itself.