Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

I hated this episode because I hated the way so many people were acting in it. After all Buffy had done for her friends and family I hated seeing them so easily turn on her.

I also hated how no one ever apologized or mentioned this event to Buffy after. Well Faith did a little, but I always thought that Dawn, Giles, Willow and Xander should have acknowledged their mistake...
 
I still think that Dawn did not tell Buffy to leave. She simply showed her where the door was - Buffy was the one who walked out of it because she couldn't bear to relinquish any of her power.
 
Kana
Kana
[No message]
W
Willow My Love
I kinda figured, "I need you to leave," was an invitation to go...
I just wanted to say that I am perfectly happy that Buffy got kicked out of the house...


...because it led to snuggly wuggly Spuffy!

Where to begin...

I'll skip the whole Buffy is better than everyone cause she did this and that blah blah; everyone knows her work, repeating it's not gonna make them care.


I'm a fan of Dawn's character; except for this episode. I don't believe in hitting a woman but I would so have Willow do a gender reversing spell just so I could slap her.

Buffy is more than just her sister.

"the monks made [Dawn] out of me."

That says to me that; she's more apt to be called Dawn's mother. Dawn is a normal teenage girl; the only reason she's even in the room for "scooby" meetings is cause she was tired of not being included in the decision making. Buffy was just gracious enough to appease the brat. And considering this is the first real thing Dawn has ever contributed to the proceedings; it's no wonder she was excluded for so long.

Buffy broke out of a love spell to save Dawn, jumped off a tower to her death, forgot about heaven so she could "really" be there for Dawn, gave up any aspirations for a normal life to be a parent to her. After all that were expected to believe that Dawn doesn't trust Buffy.

Xander...I can sorta see where he's coming from...😱

Faith, might have been dissent; but at least what she was saying wasn't mutinous.

Willow, she's really just boring in this scene.

Giles, you can take that stiff upper lip and shove it up your *&$! You don't get to abandon someone; than months or even years later play hurt that your opinion is not valued or that they have no trust in you.

Wood, I wish he would have tried taking Spike again.

Anya, really; after seeing all the pain in Buffy's life you still view being saddled with slayer-hood a gift? Wonder why you aren't the strong moral center of the group.

If it wasn't for Buffy, Xander and Willow would both be dust on a factory floor. So, we can't play the who helps who more card.

Potentials, isn't there a teen drama needing background extras somewhere....SHOO!
 
K
kadrikaur
True from beginning to end!
S
sisterofmercy
completely agree
I was so angry after this episode. Who are they not to follow Buffy? In Forever, all they wanted was to ask Buffy things, but they couldn't, right? And now, after she's died to save the world, twice, after she killed the love of her life, after all she's done, this is how she's repaid?

And what does Faith do, but string them all into some trap while Buffy finds a mystical Slayer ax. They were completely wrong, and I was intensely disappointed in all of them. Willow, Xander, and Giles the most. They have been in it since the beginning. They've seen the strength and ingenuity that Buffy has shown, and they don't trust her?

And I've never liked Dawn. At all. This made me hate her. I have a little sister who's 4 years younger than me. I've done a lot for her, and I have confidence that, no matter what, she'd NEVER treat me with such disrespect. Dawn LITERALLY owes her existence in this plane to Buffy. Were it not for her, she wouldn't have been human! The monks saw fit to give Dawn to Buffy to take care of, and she has, but Dawn decides to look the other way.

Buffy has saved hundreds of lives. Not all of them will survive, but not all will die either. What has Faith done to rival Buffy? We all saw how she acted with the mayor. She's betrayed them already. How can she lead?

This episode really angered me. I hated all of them for what they did to Buffy, and yes, even Willow. I don't like Willow much in season 7 anyhow, but we won't get in to that.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I felt the same way towards Dawn when I first watched this episode. I don't get Dawn at all.
If it wasn't for Buffy, Xander and Willow would both be dust on a factory floor. So, we can't play the who helps who more card.

How does that work again? Without Xander's help Buffy would have been dead back in "The Harvest". It's a two-way street. The show emphasizes again and again that having friends is what makes Buffy such a successful Slayer. Then in S7 the writers are so desperate to pander to the Spuffy fans and to preach that "Slayers rule supreme" crap" that they suddenly forget all that and out of the blue Buffy needs only Spike, trusts only Spike and everyone who doesn't have superpowers is regarded as a great liability. It's a bizzarro world, as Cordelia would put it.
 
Litheran
Litheran
In The Wish we saw that if Buffy hadn't came to Sunnydale; Xander and Willow would be vamps; who subsequently get dusted.
T
TheVoid68
[No message]
Litheran disagrees: In The Wish we saw that if Buffy hadn't came to Sunnydale; Xander and Willow would be vamps; who subsequently get dusted.

...And Buffy would have gotten her neck snapped by The Master. Like Icarium said, it's a two-way street.
 
Litheran disagrees: In The Wish we saw that if Buffy hadn't came to Sunnydale; Xander and Willow would be vamps; who subsequently get dusted.

...And Buffy would have gotten her neck snapped by The Master. Like Icarium said, it's a two-way street.

But; the only reason Buffy came to Sunnydale in the alternate 'verse was cause our Cordelia brought her up.

I'm not saying the Scoobs aren't vital to Buffy's survival; it is a two-way street like was said. I just think there equally dependent; meaning no one gets credit for saving the other.
 
Have to say, Buffy annoyed the hell out of me in Season 7, and her getting verbal smackdown was a good moment for me. Getting that out of the way, I'm a little biased on this episode.

I do, however, have opinions on some of the criticisms levelled at the others, and the "praise"/whatever of Buffy that I've seen on this thread, that I will try and explain without so much bias 😛

- "General Buffy" It has been established several times in the show how different Buffy is from most "normal" Slayers, how she has a support network of family and friends, and how that is part of why she has stayed alive as long as she has- she has people who are there for her, she has a normal life to fight for, and she can think outside the box. The Watcher's Council are frequently lambasted throughout the show for advocating the very opposite view, that the Slayer is essentially the tool of the Watcher's Council, and is just a soldier, if you will.

Now, these Potentials arrive, and yes, a lot of them have probably had some training, but they have no Slayer powers at all, as Buffy had when she began battling apocalypses, they have, with exceptions like Amanda, been moved away from their family, friends, and even country, in a lot of cases, away from everything they know. And instead of taking her own experiences into account, Buffy treats them like "just soldiers", she calls the girl who commits suicide weak (been a while since I saw Season 7, so I'm a bit fuzzy on names), she gives never ending rounds of speeches, and that's pretty much it. Yes, I'm sure it would have been harder for her to learn their names, get to know them, and then see them die. But I'm sure as hell the alternative wasn't any easier for them.

-Faith/Potential bonding- As far as them going to the Bronze goes, yes, they were at war, yes, they should take it seriously, but they were also frightened, probably pretty depressed after heavy losses, and perhaps one night of normalcy and fun would have been more useful and morale boosting than another lecture from Buffy at that point.

-Buffy and her friends- Yes, we've seen The Wish. We know that without Buffy, Sunnydale went to hell, Willow and Xander were vampires, etc. And what happened to Buffy, the warrior, the business-like Slayer who seemed far more battle-focused and lonely than the Buffy we know? Oh, yeah, she handled it fine, not like she ended up with the Master snapping her neck and killing her with relative ease... ohwait! OK, that came out a lot more sarcastic than intended XD But still, my point is, that what I took from that episode is, without the setup of Sunnydale as it was (Buffy there, a friendship group there for her), everything there was screwed, including Buffy. Yes, she saved the world, many times, and credit where credit is due. But it is still a relationship of mutual give and take. So yes, I think they did have a perfect right to disagree with her. They've all lost things, helping Buffy in this war against the darkness, and while that wasn't Buffy's fault directly, and whilst they could have left, they stayed loyal, by and large. Giles lost Jenny to Angel, to hurt Buffy, and his job to Wesley. Willow lost Tara because of a stray bullet meant for Buffy, etc.

Also, I do feel the whole thing was handled badly, by all parties involved. Proposing just charging into the site of their biggest defeat, where people had died, and Xander had lost his eye, and then just saying "that's the plan", in front of everyone, that was not well handled. Everyone having a go at Buffy at once, then kicking her out, that was not well handled. What should have happened, was that Buffy should have taken the other "key players" (Giles, Willow, Xander, etc.) aside and told them the plan first, so concerns could be registered in private. The others, equally, should probably have taken Buffy to one side to explain why everyone was so pissed off, and why this might be a bad idea, or even just to have a go at her- if it happened in private, then it might not have opened the floodgates of everyone in the building turning against Buffy.

That said, I think this episode needed to happen. There was a lot of tension in that house in Season 7, I think perhaps it was neccessary for Buffy to realise just how much she had alienated, not only the Potentials, who she doesn't really seem to care for much, but also her close friends. And also for those characters to be able to air their grievances rather than nursing them all the way through the Season, so that when Buffy returns, at least the air is... well, clearer than it would have been, anyway. And Buffy becomes less of an annoying ... woman... than she was previously, IMO.

Sorry if I've annoyed anyone with this, I mean, of course, no offence to members of this forum, I merely have a differing opinion than some 🙂

Just out of interest, I remember just before this episode aired, there was some talk that when Giles "argues" with Buffy in this scene, he was actually meant to bring up Jenny's name, but it was cut from the final episode. Anyone else remember hearing anything like this, or have I just imagined it in my old age?
 
Kana
Kana
No point quoting this post because most of the points I agree with.
S
sosa lola
Great thoughts. Both parties were in the wrong, not just the Scoobies.
Just out of interest, I remember just before this episode aired, there was some talk that when Giles "argues" with Buffy in this scene, he was actually meant to bring up Jenny's name, but it was cut from the final episode. Anyone else remember hearing anything like this, or have I just imagined it in my old age?

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/141_scri.html - that's a link to the original shooting script where Jenny is mentioned.
 
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