Buffy kicking a person out of their own home +

[Btvs fan]

I always took the whole point of the Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike scenes discussing Angel was to show there wasn’t a ‘love triangle’ though. The whole point is that Buffy isn’t going to choose between the two of them because they aren’t her only choices - she can choose herself and move forward with her life as she doesn’t even know what she wants from life yet, which is understandable as she’s only 22. This is then reinforced in The Girl in Question, Angel and Spike regarding her as ‘their girl’ and the show again reiterating she doesn’t belong to either of them. She’s doing her own thing that actually doesn’t involve them at all. Obviously some shippers froth at the mouth at this as they think Buffy SHOULD be choosing which hot vampire wins her but the show quite rightly states that isn’t the case.

Yeah this definitely highlights Joss’ douchiness and ‘man has needs so what else is he supposed to do?’ attitude but I don’t think it’s totally beyond Spike’s character. Spike got his soul entirely because of Buffy, that’s what Spike has done his entire existance. Bent his self and even personality around what he believes the object of his obsession will want but he shows very little self reflection beyond the woman in his life. The scene with Harmony shows he actually hasn’t learnt a whole lot about his own actions beyond the object of his obsession

I always saw TGIQ to be the opposite that despite the words Buffy hadn't moved on at all and shes doing the same old same old . Angel even outright states "she's fallen for a mysterious older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil" Sound familiar ?

I just saw that as Whedon angry that Sarah didn't do the Hundreth episode and this was his revenge. Also Fury says it wasn't meant be Andrew but Dawn in that role but they couldn't get MT back (Gee I wonder why ?)

But then Whedon retconed it all in the Comics so it wasn’t even Buffy anyway.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2023

Ew. Joss should wonder how he's still alive if guys just *need* sex so much.

Also Spike started calling Fred the same nickname he gave Buffy 🙄 yeah the spuffies would melt when he'd call Buffy 'pet' but he's using the same lines on Fred. 'Pet' is a common nickname in England and here it might not mean much but Spike didn't use it like that.

Lol given him telling the Interviewer in the Vulture article he wasn't joking when he said something similar about himself , I think it's fair to say that's pretty accurate to how he thinks in reality.

On the Hole in the World DVD Commentary Amy Acker did say James Marsters had speculated to her on if they were going to make Fred and Spike a couple. Though if they had done they would've needed another reason for Wes to suffer for his man pain in the rest of the season ????

 

[Faded90]

I always saw TGIQ to be the opposite that despite the words Buffy hadn't moved on at all and shes doing the same old same old . Angel even outright states "she's fallen for a mysterious older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil" Sound familiar ?

I just saw that as Whedon angry that Sarah didn't do the Hundreth episode and this was his revenge. Also Fury says it wasn't meant be Andrew but Dawn in that role but they couldn't get MT back (Gee I wonder why ?)

But then Whedon retconed it all in the Comics so it wasn’t even Buffy anyway.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2023

Lol given him telling the Interviewer in the Vulture article he wasn't joking when he said something similar about himself , I think it's fair to say that's pretty accurate to how he thinks in reality.

On the Hole in the World DVD Commentary Amy Acker did say James Marsters had speculated to her on if they were going to make Fred and Spike a couple. Though if they had done they would've needed another reason for Wes to suffer for his man pain in the rest of the season ????

I never saw the Immortal as same old same old. I mean sure if you want to put them all into boxes then maybe but it was made clear in the episode that Buffy’s thing with him was mostly just having fun. She wasn’t locked into some incredibly melodramatic ‘oh my god my boyfriend!’ drama. She was partying and hanging out with him. It was the fun casual relationship Buffy had never been allowed to have in the show.

I never saw the Buffy/Immortal stuff as vengeful either. The entire episode very much paints Angel and Spike as in the wrong for being possessive of Buffy. The joke was on them, not Buffy. What did Buffy even do that was wrong? It’s not like Buffy should be expected to be chaste and saving herself. Neither Angel or Spike had that season.

To be honest the retcon is insanely more insulting to Buffy as a character. Buffy seriously putting young girls in danger to keep HERSELF safer? Never ever ever! That goes against everything Buffy ever stood for. It said that even years later while Angel and Spike had been hooking up with other people Buffy had just been alone daydreaming about her hot vampires which honestly is just. Sad. The comics never seemed to care about Buffy and her autonomy though

 

[garfan]

the guy Buffy threw out could get in his car and leave and as an ordinary person should have. He was thrown out for his safety. She was thrown out because he friends no longer trusted her

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2023

I never saw the Buffy/Immortal stuff as vengeful either. The entire episode very much paints Angel and Spike as in the wrong for being possessive of Buffy. The joke was on them, not Buffy. What did Buffy even do that was wrong? It’s not like Buffy should be expected to be chaste and saving herself. Neither Angel or Spike had that season.

The Immortal did not seem like a good guy or a guy who was trying to be good so that's what was wrong with that

 

[thetopher]

Buffy wasn't even thrown out- except by Dawn- she was called out for her high-handed attitude, issued an ultimatum and then pridefully left when told no-one would follow her.

She did force that guy out of his house with intimidation though.

 

[Bop]

On the Hole in the World DVD Commentary Amy Acker did say James Marsters had speculated to her on if they were going to make Fred and Spike a couple. Though if they had done they would've needed another reason for Wes to suffer for his man pain in the rest of the season ????

I think they were definitely flirting with the idea of Spike/Fred they were redoing story beats from Buffy/Spike in season 7 too with how Fred is the only one to be friendly to Spike and believe he's worth saving and then when Fred is dying Spike says I can't lose this girl, not this girl! which is very angsty.
But yeah Fred was reserved mainly for Wesley's man pain 😂

 

[Taake]

Buffy wasn't even thrown out- except by Dawn- she was called out for her high-handed attitude, issued an ultimatum and then pridefully left when told no-one would follow her.

She did force that guy out of his house with intimidation though.

Ok, but - isn’t that the point?

First of all: that it is Dawn who kicks her out. The sister Buffy died for, is the one who turns her out.

Secondly: Xander had just recently given a rousing ”why Buffy is a hero, trust her” speech. It is forced that everyone suddenly turns on her, and jarring from Buffy’s perspective.

Again, this is why I say it is an attempt to re-create the ”me” scene of season 2.

Here we have it: ”no friends, no family, no hope… take all that away and what’s left?”

Except Buffy is no longer a plucky young heroine filled with exuberance and hope. She just barely started to want to live again. She has no resounding ”me!” left in her at this point, and as they all turn on her, she does as well.

Also she wasn’t considered ”prideful” in previous seasons when she took command, yet now, she is. I’m not saying that’s all wrong, it is just… Buffy is losing her identity in this scene.

As she makes a mistake, everyone turns on her including herself.

The following kick a guy out scene is the ”Buffy is no longer a hero in her own eyes” scene. It is the opposite of the ”me!” scene. And for a reason.

I will parallell it with Angel s4, as they want to remove his soul. In Buffy season 2, having a person accept and love him for who he is was earth shattering to Angel. By Angel season 4 he needs a whole magical day created where he reunites with his friends, his son, beats the bad guy and theeeen gets the girl… the whole thing is meant to show that Angel is now much more complex than previously.

Same for Buffy. She is no longer the teenager of season 2 and she no longer has that sheer youthful zest for life.

The point is, the writers are trying to show that she is more complex now. That she can lose everything, even herself.

I’ll admit that it seems geared towards the writers simply wanting the Spuffy scenes that followed, but that said, I still think this is an important turning point for Buffy as the main character and the story itself. It should surprise us that Buffy would kick someone out of their own home, because ”it’s wrong”, but again… that’s the point. Buffy isn’t in the right here, just like e.g. a lot of things Angel does isn’t the right thing to do. Complex heroes lose hope and get it wrong sometimes.

I don’t think it was carried out masterfully, but I appreciate the effort, kind of.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Here we have it: ”no friends, no family, no hope… take all that away and what’s left?”

Spike!

 

[garfan]

Buffy wasn't even thrown out- except by Dawn- she was called out for her high-handed attitude, issued an ultimatum and then pridefully left when told no-one would follow her.

She did force that guy out of his house with intimidation though.

she was thrown out by a bunch of people who lost their spines and their brains. The Sunnydale class of 99 was braver than them at that point

 

[thrasherpix]

she was thrown out by a bunch of people who lost their spines and their brains. The Sunnydale class of 99 was braver than them at that point

And a young Buffy from her high school years would've defied "General Buffy" of season 7.

 

[thetopher]

Ok, but - isn’t that the point?

Hnm, perhaps....or maybe you might be giving the writers a bit too much credit?

Remember that we do get some of Buffy's POV about what went down when she's talking with Spike; she feels quite aggrieved at the 'betrayal' of all her friends and perks up a bit when she hears about Spike punching Faith.

And at the end of it all she admits to is that 'she cut herself off'; wow, its like she's learned nothing from all those years trusting and relying on her friends like she did in S3, 4 and 5, suddenly she's utterly regressed as a character and, frankly its a shame.

Also nothing about her multiple errors in judgement, one of which is literally staring her in the face.

As she makes a mistake, everyone turns on her including herself.

By this point Buffy has made multiple mistakes; doubling down on them again and again going way back to Spike's trigger and going with her 'do nothing' strategy.

The comparison to Angel is interesting though, but I think it indicates that Angel got stronger as his series (his 'happy day' required more than is fleeting moment with Buffy, it needed all his ties to be content for him to be content) went along whereas maybe Buffy got weaker.
Her S2 'me' moment is faith in herself but as the series went on she often needed pep from others to pull her out of a funk. And this time it was Spike...and it was written specifically that way.

she was thrown out by a bunch of people who lost their spines and their brains.

But in reality Buffy gave them an ultimatum based on absolutely nothing and then got butt-hurt when they were all decided to follow somebody else and she states 'I can't stand here and watch...'
And so she was held to her words by Dawn and- even then she doesn't back down, reconsider or anything.

She chooses to leave; abandons her friends in the middle of an apocalypse out of nothing but pride. Sorry, but that is pretty low of her.

 

[garfan]

And a young Buffy from her high school years would've defied "General Buffy" of season 7.

really? Cause in season 1 when Giles told Buffy she shouldn't go into a battle she was fated to die in, she punched him in the face and went anyway.

But in reality Buffy gave them an ultimatum based on absolutely nothing and then got butt-hurt when they were all decided to follow somebody else and she states 'I can't stand here and watch...'
And so she was held to her words by Dawn and- even then she doesn't back down, reconsider or anything.

She chooses to leave; abandons her friends in the middle of an apocalypse out of nothing but pride. Sorry, but that is pretty low of her.

Her ultimatum based on nothing was more than they had. They chose to make a battle plan based on info they got from interrogating a Bringer. I'd never even considered them as having minds of their own and don't really think the show made a case they did. So basically they decided it was better to ask their enemy what they should do. That's less than nothing

 

[Bop]

Her ultimatum based on nothing was more than they had. They chose to make a battle plan based on info they got from interrogating a Bringer. I'd never even considered them as having minds of their own and don't really think the show made a case they did. So basically they decided it was better to ask their enemy what they should do. That's less than nothing

I don't think the bringer plan was any better than the vineyard plan but the difference is Buffy wanted to do the vineyard plan twice and it can't be forgotten that the first vineyard plan wasn't popular either- Giles believed it was Caleb leading them into a trap and it turned out to be a trap, but regardless everyone decided to trust Buffy anyway and they followed her. Some of the girls died and Xander lost an eye and Buffy expects them all to do it again just because she has a feeling- her feeling turned out to be right but nobody in the house had any reason to think that. And then Buffy's making ridiculous comments like 'Spike's the only one who has my back' after people like Xander just lost an eye having her back at the vineyard.

 

[thrasherpix]

really? Cause in season 1 when Giles told Buffy she shouldn't go into a battle she was fated to die in, she punched him in the face and went anyway.

Yes, really, and you give one of the reasons why. She put HERSELF in danger, and punched Giles to NOT let him go with her. Very poor example on your part as scenes like that are why I say Buffy wouldn't tolerate season 7 Buffy (though as a Potential she probably wouldn't be willing to punch a Slayer, but still be like the other Potentials with snarky comments and lack of trust).

(There are more like it...in one case she punched Giles because he DID go after Angelus after she saved him, and also went to save Willow, not mount up a posse to go after Glory, not until they had a plan that they came up with together.)

Many of her arguments were convincing the Scoobies not to come along, at least until she scouted it out first, and when they did, she urged caution and be ready to run at the first sign of trouble. This starts from the first episode (where she defies authority exercised over her with the "because I said so" and "because I'm your Watcher" and all else, that makes me think she'd be the same to General Buffy who was acting just like those she'd defied in the past) to at least the end of season 4 (where Spike manipulates it into a huge fight over Buffy not letting them hunt Adam with her).

Only in season 5 did she consider them her unit, and she STILLED listened to them rather than barked orders at them, and acknowledged their contributions rather than acting as if she alone saved them rather than all the times they saved her (individually and as a group). In season 5 she treats them as her friends and allies, in season 7 she treats them as her flunkies.

Even if Teen Buffy was a Potential rather than a Slayer, I'd see her bucking General Buffy just as fast...especially if she was bitter over say her family being killed, and now told she had to follow orders.

 

[garfan]

I don't think the bringer plan was any better than the vineyard plan but the difference is Buffy wanted to do the vineyard plan twice and it can't be forgotten that the first vineyard plan wasn't popular either- Giles believed it was Caleb leading them into a trap and it turned out to be a trap, but regardless everyone decided to trust Buffy anyway and they followed her. Some of the girls died and Xander lost an eye and Buffy expects them all to do it again just because she has a feeling- her feeling turned out to be right but nobody in the house had any reason to think that. And then Buffy's making ridiculous comments like 'Spike's the only one who has my back' after people like Xander just lost an eye having her back at the vineyard.

But it wasn't a trap. It was exactly what it was supposed to be. A properly reinforced battlefield that you have to take to succeed is a bad situation. It's not a trap though

Yes, really, and you give one of the reasons why. She put HERSELF in danger, and punched Giles to NOT let him go with her. Very poor example on your part as scenes like that are why I say Buffy wouldn't tolerate season 7 Buffy (though as a Potential she probably wouldn't be willing to punch a Slayer, but still be like the other Potentials with snarky comments and lack of trust).

(There are more like it...in one case she punched Giles because he DID go after Angelus after she saved him, and also went to save Willow, not mount up a posse to go after Glory, not until they had a plan that they came up with together.)

Many of her arguments were convincing the Scoobies not to come along, at least until she scouted it out first, and when they did, she urged caution and be ready to run at the first sign of trouble. This starts from the first episode (where she defies authority exercised over her with the "because I said so" and "because I'm your Watcher" and all else, that makes me think she'd be the same to General Buffy who was acting just like those she'd defied in the past) to at least the end of season 4 (where Spike manipulates it into a huge fight over Buffy not letting them hunt Adam with her).

Only in season 5 did she consider them her unit, and she STILLED listened to them rather than barked orders at them, and acknowledged their contributions rather than acting as if she alone saved them rather than all the times they saved her (individually and as a group). In season 5 she treats them as her friends and allies, in season 7 she treats them as her flunkies.

Even if Teen Buffy was a Potential rather than a Slayer, I'd see her bucking General Buffy just as fast...especially if she was bitter over say her family being killed, and now told she had to follow orders.

earlier in the season she was trying to protect them. They spent very little time fighting demons. Even against the ubervamp they were just an audience. The vineyard was their first major battle.

And when the crew refused to go back to the vineyard they had no alternative plan. To a younger Buffy refusing to go to the vineyard would not have been being expected to follow orders, it would be refusing to fight

 

[thrasherpix]

Early season 7 isn't so bad.

But by the time Buffy leaves--more than kicked out--the writing is atrocious, out of character (Buffy wouldn't lead them back without a plan, and wouldn't make an ultimatum like that, but the burned out writers had to force it to where they wanted it to go) for most to all of them, and on first viewing I assumed some dark arts or demonic influence at work that would be discovered and countered rather than we were to take it seriously.

Since I can't take it seriously, and I don't have protagonist-centered morality, I don't think we can see eye to eye on this. Especially as I don't think anyone who'd say no to Buffy (and then follow Faith in more terrible writing) is a spineless coward.

In earlier seasons, Buffy made her own choices, and if she tried to force choices on others, it was typically to keep them out of danger, or at least minimize their risk. And in disagreeing, she'd at least ask what the problem was rather than laying down an ultimatum (and when she did lead a group, particularly of those without any experience or special powers, she had a plan--made by ALL of them rather than herself--which typically included in getting the Big Bad to come after her instead of the rest, but here she did not). But that's not the Buffy here. She's unrecognizable. That's not complex character growth, it's just writers burned out wanting it to be over already.

 

[garfan]

Early season 7 isn't so bad.

But by the time Buffy leaves--more than kicked out--the writing is atrocious, out of character (Buffy wouldn't lead them back without a plan, and wouldn't make an ultimatum like that, but the burned out writers had to force it to where they wanted it to go) for most to all of them, and on first viewing I assumed some dark arts or demonic influence at work that would be discovered and countered rather than we were to take it seriously.

Since I can't take it seriously, and I don't have protagonist-centered morality, I don't think we can see eye to eye on this. Especially as I don't think anyone who'd say no to Buffy (and then follow Faith in more terrible writing) is a spineless coward.

In earlier seasons, Buffy made her own choices, and if she tried to force choices on others, it was typically to keep them out of danger, or at least minimize their risk. And in disagreeing, she'd at least ask what the problem was rather than laying down an ultimatum (and when she did lead a group, particularly of those without any experience or special powers, she had a plan--made by ALL of them rather than herself--which typically included in getting the Big Bad to come after her instead of the rest, but here she did not). But that's not the Buffy here. She's unrecognizable. That's not complex character growth, it's just writers burned out wanting it to be over already.

they could have had Buffy scan the room, decide the girls weren't up to it and decide to go herself. Isolating herself, which is something that she does on occasion and is generally bad.

it is the writing of course. But I can't critique the lack of a plan by the characters, because the writers hadn't established anyway to set up a plan. I mean in the last three seasons the victory at the end was always an asspull.

 

[Btvs fan]

Hnm, perhaps....or maybe you might be giving the writers a bit too much credit?

Remember that we do get some of Buffy's POV about what went down when she's talking with Spike; she feels quite aggrieved at the 'betrayal' of all her friends and perks up a bit when she hears about Spike punching Faith.

And at the end of it all she admits to is that 'she cut herself off'; wow, its like she's learned nothing from all those years trusting and relying on her friends like she did in S3, 4 and 5, suddenly she's utterly regressed as a character and, frankly its a shame.

Also nothing about her multiple errors in judgement, one of which is literally staring her in the face.



By this point Buffy has made multiple mistakes; doubling down on them again and again going way back to Spike's trigger and going with her 'do nothing' strategy.

The comparison to Angel is interesting though, but I think it indicates that Angel got stronger as his series (his 'happy day' required more than is fleeting moment with Buffy, it needed all his ties to be content for him to be content) went along whereas maybe Buffy got weaker.
Her S2 'me' moment is faith in herself but as the series went on she often needed pep from others to pull her out of a funk. And this time it was Spike...and it was written specifically that way.



But in reality Buffy gave them an ultimatum based on absolutely nothing and then got butt-hurt when they were all decided to follow somebody else and she states 'I can't stand here and watch...'
And so she was held to her words by Dawn and- even then she doesn't back down, reconsider or anything.

She chooses to leave; abandons her friends in the middle of an apocalypse out of nothing but pride. Sorry, but that is pretty low of her.

The show was a metaphor based show around High School and the Creators issues (he's literally admitted the Main character is him as a female insert/sex object character, you cant get more issue like than that) with his High School years and turning it into a great convept E.G High School is hell. Once they moved away from that as well as doing a spin off with Ats a concept as the Adult show with characters in there 20's (subtlety changed to 30's) BtVS really struggled with its identity imo. Plus JW admitted he only had a 5 year plan anyway so once that ended they were struggling with what to do, so by S7 the show is back in High school and episodes are literally redoing old scripts and plots from previous seasons .
Though they missed a trick with the college years, they could've got more milage there imo.
While Ats was fortunate in having Tim Minear (how unlike Joss Whedon got Angel) who scrapped the pedestrian concept of that show of Angel saving the victim of the week and killing the monster of the week, to more about Angel himself which gave a lot more for the show to explore. Though I always felt Ats worked better with a smaller cast as opposed to Joss Whedon preference of a large cast that can do 1 liners to each others.

 

[garfan]

The show was a metaphor based show around High School and the Creators issues (he's literally admitted the Main character is him as a female insert/sex object character, you cant get more issue like than that) with his High School years and turning it into a great convept E.G High School is hell. Once they moved away from that as well as doing a spin off with Ats a concept as the Adult show with characters in there 20's (subtlety changed to 30's) BtVS really struggled with its identity imo. Plus JW admitted he only had a 5 year plan anyway so once that ended they were struggling with what to do, so by S7 the show is back in High school and episodes are literally redoing old scripts and plots from previous seasons .
Though they missed a trick with the college years, they could've got more milage there imo.
While Ats was fortunate in having Tim Minear (how unlike Joss Whedon got Angel) who scrapped the pedestrian concept of that show of Angel saving the victim of the week and killing the monster of the week, to more about Angel himself which gave a lot more for the show to explore. Though I always felt Ats worked better with a smaller cast as opposed to Joss Whedon preference of a large cast that can do 1 liners to each others.

so I'm not the only one who noticed how they aged up the characters. Of course it was especially noticeable with Cordelia over on Angel, but on BtVS they could have easily inserted a text scroll at the beginning of season 5 saying nothing had happened in Sunnydale for 2 years after season 4 and had them college seniors

I think I would have actually preferred Angel to be MoTW, cause everytime they did long term planning they were idiots

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Having been in a mass evacuation of 200,000 people, the guy was lucky Buffy came around and threw him out. He would have ended up in the final crater where Sunnydale had been. Quite often on news coverage of natural disasters, there is always someone who refused to leave and was discovered dead after the fact.

I was kicked out of the apartment on November 11, 1979, the day after the Mississauga train derailment that left the air full of liquid chlorine. Ironically enough, I had said to my wife, "Nothing interesting ever happens around here." I saw some light outside that was not normal, so I went to the living room to see what it was and reached for the light switch. But the room was perfectly bright already. I saw a huge fireball that went 5000 feet up and eight seconds later, we heard the blast, meaning we were 1.6 miles from it. We went to church the next morning, which was Sunday and didn't return home until Tuesday. There was a hospital across the street where I lived and there was a steady stream of ambulances ferrying patients to other hospitals. Actually, we didn't expect to get back on Tuesday but after I picked up my wife at work, we were cruising down Highway 27 when the announcement came on the radio that our area was letting people back in, so we were the third car back in the area. It was fun heading home - cops had been stationed at each street entrance to stop looters and they were rooted to the spot as I blasted past them at 50 mph in a 30 zone. Take that traffic laws!

 

[garfan]

@Bop Theoretically yes. But you're not going to beat the bad guys without actually fighting them. They needed to kill Caleb. Caleb was at the vineyard. So they needed to go to the vineyard no matter what.

And what happened to the Watcher's Council showed what happened when you stayed in.

They basically had three options. Go fight Caleb. Stay in and wait for the First to whittle them down. Attempt to find out some weakness or what the First was planning when the only ones who knew anything were the First itself, Caleb, and the Bringers which were essentially mindless slaves