Buffy kicking a person out of their own home +

[Bop]

And what happened to the Watcher's Council showed what happened when you stayed in.

I question why The First didn't just have a bringer blow up the summers house in the first place lol. Yeah another slayer or maybe 2 would be called somewhere but they'd be newbie slayers and without the support that Buffy has so I don't think they'd be a challenge to take down.

The fact that Caleb dug up a weapon designed for his enemy and then invited his enemy to come and get it defies all logic so I think it's hard to imagine what his next move would have been if they didn't return to the vineyard.

Imagine if Buffy had realised she has to dig up the scythe- that would have taken time and manpower I'm not completely certain they had.

 

[garfan]

I question why The First didn't just have a bringer blow up the summers house in the first place lol. Yeah another slayer or maybe 2 would be called somewhere but they'd be newbie slayers and without the support that Buffy has so I don't think they'd be a challenge to take down.

The fact that Caleb dug up a weapon designed for his enemy and then invited his enemy to come and get it defies all logic so I think it's hard to imagine what his next move would have been if they didn't return to the vineyard.

Imagine if Buffy had realised she has to dig up the scythe- that would have taken time and manpower I'm not completely certain they had.

I do think Joss does consider evil to be dumb. But that might just be because he generally still has the bad guys lose despite building them up impossibly high so there's maximum drama in the fight

the problem is the bad guys had much more time than the Scoobies. It's possible if they did never show up they might have gone with the bomb the Summers house plan

Xander at least has access to construction equipment

Post automatically merged: Feb 19, 2023

 

[Btvs fan]

I question why The First didn't just have a bringer blow up the summers house in the first place lol. Yeah another slayer or maybe 2 would be called somewhere but they'd be newbie slayers and without the support that Buffy has so I don't think they'd be a challenge to take down.

The fact that Caleb dug up a weapon designed for his enemy and then invited his enemy to come and get it defies all logic so I think it's hard to imagine what his next move would have been if they didn't return to the vineyard.

Imagine if Buffy had realised she has to dig up the scythe- that would have taken time and manpower I'm not completely certain they had.

Caleb himself was only introduced late in the day because (besides giving Nathan Fillion a job) because the writers realised (they admitted this too) with the First being Incorporeal Buffy needed something to punch and have a fight scene with . That the First would show up literally say something menacing then leave and that was it. Joss once said of Spike that he'd show up ask to borrow some coffee and insult you and that was pretty much the same with the First. So viola here comes Caleb a Woman hating Southern Preacher Buffy can pound away on

 

[Bop]

Xander at least has access to construction equipment

I want that storyline, Xander's construction experience saving the world is very Buffy.

It would have made more sense for them to discover the scythe is under there, maybe nudged in a subtle way by Caleb, and then The First could have ambushed them while they dug for it.

Caleb himself was only introduced late in the day because (besides giving Nathan Fillion a job) because the writers realised (they admitted this too) with the First being Incorporeal Buffy needed something to punch and have a fight scene with .

I think the uber vamp made a much better physical thing for Buffy to fight because he was just a foot soldier not someone to execute plans 😄

 

[thrasherpix]

All the First or Caleb had to do is report a bunch of foreign kids there (presumably without papers, and at least one who couldn't speak English), reporting it as a type of trafficking, and that the wanted felon Faith was there. This would be especially effective after Faith beat up a bunch of cops.

And that's just the simple stuff. It could've gotten really nasty fast. To take it seriously, I have to believe Caleb had a real death wish, and was angry that Buffy was taking too long to kill him.

 

[Faded90]

For me ultimately the biggest problem with this scene (and season 7 in general) is that it’s ultimately used to service Spike’s character and characterisation was a victim of that. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that doesn’t actually make sense in S7 or is incredibly poor continuity but they prioritised Spike’s story over anyone else’s this season (including Buffy’s)

You see this in Touched especially. The mutinied was done almost entirely to have Spike be ‘the only one there for her’ which ok fine whatever. Except because they ignored every single other factor to come out of the mutiny it made the scoobies look insanely callous. Like everyone had their own reasons for the mutiny scene and the things they said etc, again fine I don’t agree with most of it but fine. But are we seriously supposed to believe that once Buffy is gone absolutely none of the scoobies who have been family for 7 seasons give a toss that Buffy’s gone and they don’t care what she’s doing? They don’t talk about it, don’t show one iota of guilt that she’s out on her own. No worry? Not even frustration that honestly it was always highly likely Buffy would go into big loner hero mode and go to the vineyard alone? Instead the scoobies are written to forget it happened instantly. They’re bantering like nothings happened and all seem perfectly happy. Literally a 10 second scene with Xander/Willow discussing ir would have sufficed. The mutiny scene is like show changing for the character dynamics. And yet they never ever address it because it was never about anything other than Spike…. And that’s a real shame particularly when we’re 2 episodes away from the end of a 7 year show

Also high key why I resent Spuffy so much to be honest

 

[thetopher]

@Taake: Actually, your point about S2 Buffy is well made and has given me something to think about regarding Buffy's character. I might start a thread about it when I've got the time. 🙂

Her ultimatum based on nothing was more than they had.

Her ultimatum was 'rush and do the same thing as before without knowing anything new'; their's was 'no, we wait until we have more information/conformation about the enemy'.

Given that Giles had already sent Spike and Andrew off on an intelligence gathering mission they already had another plan in motion before Buffy's silly doomed meeting.
So, that's not nothing, that's a valid alternative.

They chose to make a battle plan based on info they got from interrogating a Bringer. I'd never even considered them as having minds of their own and don't really think the show made a case they did. So basically they decided it was better to ask their enemy what they should do. That's less than nothing

Well, interrogating the enemy is a tried and tested method of gathering intel and making a plan of attack. What's more; everyone was involved in it at every step and contributed to it; Kennedy, Giles, Dawn, etc
Ergo; everyone was fooled by the trap that Faith fell for. Hell, Buffy herself even states that, if she had the same info, she would've fallen for it herself.

After all Buffy walked into a far simpler 'believe the enemy' trick (that everyone pointed out was clearly a trap), and she had an alternative. The fact is that it had been established that Willow already had a spell to detect where a Potential was located, so they should've cast that if Buffy thought Caleb might have one held captive.

 

[Btvs fan]

@Taake: Actually, your point about S2 Buffy is well made and has given me something to think about regarding Buffy's character. I might start a thread about it when I've got the time. 🙂



Her ultimatum was 'rush and do the same thing as before without knowing anything new'; their's was 'no, we wait until we have more information/conformation about the enemy'.

Given that Giles had already sent Spike and Andrew off on an intelligence gathering mission they already had another plan in motion before Buffy's silly doomed meeting.
So, that's not nothing, that's a valid alternative.




Well, interrogating the enemy is a tried and tested method of gathering intel and making a plan of attack. What's more; everyone was involved in it at every step and contributed to it; Kennedy, Giles, Dawn, etc
Ergo; everyone was fooled by the trap that Faith fell for. Hell, Buffy herself even states that, if she had the same info, she would've fallen for it herself.

After all Buffy walked into a far simpler 'believe the enemy' trick (that everyone pointed out was clearly a trap), and she had an alternative. The fact is that it had been established that Willow already had a spell to detect where a Potential was located, so they should've cast that if Buffy thought Caleb might have one held captive.

I think by that point the Writers had either forgotten that plot point or simply didn't care. It wasn't the only 1. For example where did those Uber Vamps come from ? Hadn't Andrews tears closed the Hellmouth Gate ?
How did Buffy even know where they were ? Why did Caleb let her go after he'd knocked her out at the school ? , why did he even dig up the Scythe ex machina anyway ?
Then there is the amulet, it was given to Angel by Lilah and W & H yet its then revealed they got it from Lindsey, given they were hunting him, how ? While Eve was implying Spike was meant to have it, again how would they know Angel would show up, give it to Buffy, be sent away then that she'd give it to Spike ! That's predicting the future into an Art form right there!

As for the First plan it said when it's UBER Vamps have over run the world, it will live in everyone, leaving aside how , won't everyone be dead or Vamped if that happens, so who will it be living in ?

I'm Honestly amazed that anyone can praise Season 7, or make excuses for Joss writing (Marti did it !) As it's writing is pretty awful.

 

[thetopher]

I think by that point the Writers had either forgotten that plot point or simply didn't care. It wasn't the only 1. For example where did those Uber Vamps come from ? Hadn't Andrews tears closed the Hellmouth Gate ?
How did Buffy even know where they were ? Why did Caleb let her go after he'd knocked her out at the school ? , why did he even dig up the Scythe ex machina anyway ?
Then there is the amulet, it was given to Angel by Lilah and W & H yet its then revealed they got it from Lindsey, given they were hunting him, how ? While Eve was implying Spike was meant to have it, again how would they know Angel would show up, give it to Buffy, be sent away then that she'd give it to Spike ! That's predicting the future into an Art form right there!

Yeah, but...the themes! The themes, man, the themes are so powerful. And Buffy and Spike...aRe So RiGhT For EaCh OthEr! 😛

Y'know, in all seriousness, there isn't too much that needs fixing for the 'Buffy isolating herself' stuff to work, it just has to be mostly self-imposed, just like it had been previously. And Caleb/The First could've been smarter. I mean, The First can look exactly like Buffy and knows her worst traits inside and out and...never uses it? We had the whole 'Giles is The First' lameness so why not build on it, have The First drive a wedge between Buffy and her friends, playing on that lack of communication to push them further away. That's thematic and makes plot-sense and makes the bad guy threatening. The Caleb swoops in for the coup de grace...but Buffy escapes by being resourceful, Spike arrives with some vital intel and Buffy realizes that this is in fact Season 4 all over again, and returns to the group with a renewed sense of purpose and belief. Or something.

Instead the writers twisted the characters and plot til they screamed in pain, just so we'd be relieved when the credits rolled on the final episode...

Well, not quite but almost.

The amulet stuff...not touchin' that. Kinda breaks Angel S5 from the start...but at least it has a good half season to recover and tell its own story.

 

[garfan]

@Taake: Actually, your point about S2 Buffy is well made and has given me something to think about regarding Buffy's character. I might start a thread about it when I've got the time. 🙂



Her ultimatum was 'rush and do the same thing as before without knowing anything new'; their's was 'no, we wait until we have more information/conformation about the enemy'.

Given that Giles had already sent Spike and Andrew off on an intelligence gathering mission they already had another plan in motion before Buffy's silly doomed meeting.
So, that's not nothing, that's a valid alternative.




Well, interrogating the enemy is a tried and tested method of gathering intel and making a plan of attack. What's more; everyone was involved in it at every step and contributed to it; Kennedy, Giles, Dawn, etc
Ergo; everyone was fooled by the trap that Faith fell for. Hell, Buffy herself even states that, if she had the same info, she would've fallen for it herself.

After all Buffy walked into a far simpler 'believe the enemy' trick (that everyone pointed out was clearly a trap), and she had an alternative. The fact is that it had been established that Willow already had a spell to detect where a Potential was located, so they should've cast that if Buffy thought Caleb might have one held captive.

they did know something new, they knew how strong Caleb was, which presumably would alte the way they fought him

Yes, Buffy may have been fooled by that(though I took that more as her trying to make them not feel to horrible) if she had that info, I don't think she'd have ever had that info because they were reaching like hell to get it. Interrogating the enemy may be a tried and true tactic, but most enemies are known to have minds of their own, which the Bringers were not

 

[TheAnnoyingOne]

Maybe I'm being naive but I kinda had the feeling the guy knew it wasn't safe to stay in town and he should have left, that would explain why he seemed on the edge. I took it that Buffy forced him to leave in her own funny way for his safety, being kicked out of his house was just the last straw that pushed him to take the decision that could save his life (and it did save his life in the end).

But even if it was the intent like I believe it was, it wasn't clear enough and not something I would have written into the show if it had been up to me. Far from being the only writing decision I found questionable in this season though.

 

[Tome]

Can't say I felt much of anything for that guy. He was better off leaving town anyway.

It didn't seem out of character for Buffy either, when considering the context of the ongoing situation.

 

[thetopher]

they did know something new, they knew how strong Caleb was, which presumably would alte the way they fought him

Except they had no way of knowing what he was- clearly not human- or indeed how to even kill him. And they also lacked Spike, who had fought the guy previously and is theoretically useful, so maybe wait til he gets back to what? Mob Caleb all at once? What a great plan. sarc/

Interrogating the enemy may be a tried and true tactic, but most enemies are known to have minds of their own, which the Bringers were not

You're using knowledge that the character did not have at the time to say why it was stupid, whilst ignoring the fact that the group did have knowledge that would make Buffy's first, much stupider plan completely unnecessary.


Also, didn't Spike enter the dude's place following Buffy's smell? How could he enter if the guy was still alive?
So, canonically the dude was killed because Buffy needed a place to crash. Goddamn it.

 

[nightshade]

Also, didn't Spike enter the dude's place following Buffy's smell? How could he enter if the guy was still alive?

I've always wondered about that, was him leaving with no intention to return enough to let Spike enter?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Not necessarily. The household wars is a rule of this dimension, if the Gates of hell were opening, Sunnydale would have been corrupted by the dark dimension, making Vampires stronger and the wards weaker.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

But it was never made known who actually owned the house, it might be that he only rented the house, so, as such he was not kicked out of HIS home, nothing was made known of the fact that the house was owned by a Mr. Rupert Giles as a retirement present to himself. So in fact Buffy did not kick the guy out of HIS house.

 

[TriBel]

I've always wondered about that, was him leaving with no intention to return enough to let Spike enter?

This is what Spike says:
"There you are. Do you realize I could just walk in here, no invite needed? This town really is theirs now, isn't it?" It sounds a lot like @AlphaFoxtrot 's explanation:

if the Gates of hell were opening, Sunnydale would have been corrupted by the dark dimension, making Vampires stronger and the wards weaker.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

This is what Spike says:
"There you are. Do you realize I could just walk in here, no invite needed? This town really is theirs now, isn't it?" It sounds a lot like @AlphaFoxtrot 's explanation:

Or that Spike didn't know (as he was wont to do) how low Buffy actually sunk and that she would knowingly send a man out to his death just so she could get a soft place to sleep... and maybe some Tab.

 

[thetopher]

Now I remember Spike's explanation...but since he didn't see what Buffy did he's almost certainly just guessing yet sounding very sure of himself. Which is Spike, to be fair.

But wild guess notwithstanding the guy's probably definitely dead, since I remember that in an episode of Angel a guy was on life support and Angel still couldn't enter his home...until the guy dies and Angel falls in on his face. S2 I think.
Basically the sanctuary against vampires thing is pretty strong.

So the guy died cold and alone, bereft of his favourite shotgun, knowing that some rando is raiding his fridge. lol

 

[Skanky Vamp]

since I remember that in an episode of Angel a guy was on life support and Angel still couldn't enter his home...until the guy dies and Angel falls in on his face. S2 I think.

I think you are thinking about him not being able to enter Kate's father's house when the vamps are getting ready to munch on him.