Episode Discussion Buffy, Spike, Seeing Red and The Me Too Movement

[Mrs Gordo]

What I am mostly see is a wave of criticisms that are completely unmeasured, often conflict with each other, make wild conspiratorial claims about Joss wanting to punish SMG, express a disconcerting lack of sympathy for Buffy as a character and imply or flatly state that people who enjoy the last two episodes of BtVS have something to explain concerning their attitude to real life sexual abuse.

The criticism runs the gambit. Not all of us who dislike this story arc hold the same opinions and that is evident throughout the boards discussions. Similarly, not everyone who dislikes the late seasons Spike story arc is an Angel fan. It just so happens I am and unfortunately for me that appears to lose me some credibility in this discussion.

 

[The Bronze]

How someone can look at those 3 incidents and consider them the same baffles me.

They have enough similarities to suggest the conversation in relation to me too would have happened before the incident, which is the subject of the thread. In fact that probably would have been during The Pack first.

The only real difference with Spike was that she was in a prior sexual relationship with him. She's dealt with at least another 3 rape attempts that I've listed and if we're talking about a breach of trust then Giles in Helpless was a much greater breach that Buffy forgave.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Just a reminder - let's be careful about making generalizations about groups of people during this discussion.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

It's like 'attempted murder', as in 'nothing happened.
That's why its better to say that in 'Seeing Red' it was 'merely' a violent successful sexual assault, not rape.

Exactly!

 

[Taake]

It's all fantasy. If you can't deal with that, how can you even watch the evening news without freaking out?

A rather dismissive attitude. What's the difference between a news story and a narrative story of the Buffy kind? Because a narrative story is about identification and immersion, it can be far more traumatic to have to "experience" a beloved character you feel like you "know" get injured or traumatized, than it might feel watching a news story about a similar event, simply because the viewer is intimiately attached to Buffy's story.

Yes, it's fantasy, but it doesn't change that it is fantasy that emotionally engages people even 20 years later.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think the fallout from the attempted rape was handled badly. To me the main problem with the scene itself was simply I'm not sure Spike would have been able to over power Buffy so easily. But I'm glad they covered the issue and took Buffy to a dark place, that's what good drama should do.

A lot of stuff about Spike and Buffy in S7 I tend to agree with @WillowFromBuffy about. Plus its part of Buffy's character that she would put the overall mission above such a thing. Looking back there was a lot of dark things over the course of the show. The examples from the Pack and Reptile Boy match up quite well for me. I think drugging someone with the intention of rape is just as bad probably.

 

[white avenger]

A rather dismissive attitude

Probably so, but the question was, how would I introduce the show to someone, and I would say, from the very first, that the show was a pure fantasy, depicting fantasy characters in a fantasy setting. Any similarity to real life would be purely coincidental, and should be taken as such. A lot more heinous things than Spike's attempted rape were depicted on the show before "seeing Red" aired, and if they could accept those things without getting upset, they shouldn't make Spike's actions in this one case as any different.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

A lot more heinous things than Spike's attempted rape were depicted on the show before "seeing Red" aired, and if they could accept those things without getting upset, they shouldn't make Spike's actions in this one case as any different.

That is true, yet there was a difference between the way those acts and Spike's act was performed, filmed and edited. Spike's act was much more visceral than anything to came before (or after) on the show, and, as such, could be- and was- viewed differently. There was almost an intimacy in the way the scene was presented. And that could give certain viewers a more difficult time- especially as most people associate these fantasy depecitions with their own experiences.

 

[Antho]

If the AR hadn't happened, viewers may have been tempted to see the stalking, the stealing, balcony scene, etc as permissible acts.

Even with the AR majority of people see the stalking, stealing and the balcony scene as permissible acts.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's like 'attempted murder', as in 'nothing happened.
That's why its better to say that in 'Seeing Red' it was 'merely' a violent successful sexual assault, not rape.

I still think 'attempted rape' is applicable for this scene. Did Spike go there with the intend to rape her? I don't think so (my memory is fuzzy). But it changed during the scene, in that Spike thought putting his penis in her vagina would convince her that she loved him. And he would force his penis in there if he had to against her will. Hence attempted rape.

I know I wouldn't advise children to watch beyond S4. I would definitely tell their parents that S5 would be ok to watch but only with their parents so they explain to their children that Spike's behavior is not in any way acceptable or desireable and how to correctly deal with a stalker.

Depending on what trauma someone suffered I would tell them that there are difficult scenarios all throughout the Seasons. However they are often more subtle in the early years. The later years are more difficult because the prolonged trauma is the point and everything becomes way more literal and therefor more 'real'.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I may get pilloried for this, but the #MeT00 movement is compartmentalized in a lot of women's minds. Haven't the last couple of decades of successful romantic comedies included harassment, stalking and not taking "no" for an answer? When Fifty Shades of Grey opened, it did $47 million the first weekend it was released and the paying viewers were mainly women. The lesson here is that if the correct man harasses, stalks and pushes the woman then it is OK and regardless of the principles involved, women have voted with their wallets to watch the "correct" man get the girl.

There are two attempted rapes in question here - the one in "Seeing Red" and the one in Season 7 where Spike is in the church and he starts in with "service the girl" then she tosses him into the pews and he says, "The girl doesn't want to be serviced."

I thought the lead up to the AR in "Seeing Red" was developed well - she only broke up with him after Riley's married status shamed her into renouncing Spike but I don't think it was obvious that she meant it. Spike was obviously a guilty pleasure of hers and he assumed everything would go back to the way it was before Riley had shown up.

I am surprised the attempt in Season 7 doesn't get more comment than it does. He has a soul at this point so he has no excuses regarding absence of a soul this time.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

To me the main problem with the scene itself was simply I'm not sure Spike would have been able to over power Buffy so easily.

To me, the main problem with the scene is the placement of it. They have Spike almost commit such a heinous act, something which if successful would've made him irredeemable to the audience, yet the very next season his whole arc relies on the audience feeling sorry for him.

I think there were other way they could've pushed Spike to get his soul rather than the AR scene. They made him too much of a good guy in Season 5 rather than the trickster he was in Season 4, as a result there is kind of a whiplash effect in Season 6 when the writers wan him to be darker.

I know I wouldn't advise children to watch beyond S4.

I wouldn't advise children to watch beyond Season 3. Season 4 kind of leads into Season 5 with Restless whereas Season 3 rounds out and ties up the high school years. The first 3 seasons are a lot more "kid friendly" despite their subject matter whereas the later seasons (particularly Season 6) are a lot more adult orientated because of the amount of sex and darker themes.

The lesson here is that if the correct man harasses, stalks and pushes the woman then it is OK and regardless of the principles involved, women have voted with their wallets to watch the "correct" man get the girl.

Correction: It's if the ATTRACTIVE man does it, etc.

There's two ways the attractive man is played, he's either the romantic lead or the arsehole. If he's played as the former, then anything he does is portrayed as ok, if he's played as the latter, then everything he does will be portrayed as wrong in the end so that the everyman can come in and save the girl.

Is there any movie involving a theme of love/sex/romance/relationships where the lead character ends the film happily single?

The lead character will always get the object of their affections by the end of the movie because it's a "happy" ending and audiences like a feel good ending.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

OK, so... you have people who with forethought and malice planned on raping Buffy... and you compare them to one person, who had been just told Buffy cared about him, who was convinced he was going to prove to her that she loved him... What he did was UTTERLY unacceptable, and YES I do class it as an assault of a sexual nature... so on a jury, I'd vote 'guilty'.

That said, this isn't a normal situation. Lack of a soul, is a reduced capacity - one Spike hasn't recognized until right then.

This is a person without a moral compass but with a wealth of feeling for the victim -- and no actual ill intent, in spite of what he did. (Bear in mind they had an ongoing, mutually violent, boundary-less relationship). This is an utterly out of control RELATIONSHIP. She almost beat him to death and he almost raped her. They are like two low-bottom addicts.

If that night had ended with him being fought off and unrepentant, then, anyone wanting to dust him, would have had no problem convincing me to do it. Instead (and please go back and watch that scene critically and consider who is speaking here -- I'm a child sex abuse survivor and I've had an attempted sexual mauling by an acquaintance that I fought off, so I actually know the situation a bit more than some. I hate rapists, and believe they often deserve the death penalty more than people who kill. Because every sex assault victim gets a life sentence.) So, when I tell you what I saw is more complicated than 'attempted rape', please consider how I feel about those who assault anyone sexually.

What I saw (and I think a lot of Spuffy fans saw that too) is a desperate, out of control man, in a messed up relationship who loses control and who, WITH NO SOUL TO GUIDE HIM... (Do REMEMBER THE RAVENING MESS ANGEL IS WITHOUT HIS SOUL??) Spike makes a horrible hash of what should have been a discussion in a calm situation....

Because he has no soul. Because his love, no matter how big is not enough.

What makes this different from the other attempted rapes in Buffy.... Spike's IMMEDIATE REACTION TO HIS OWN BEHAVIOR.

Horror.

He went and got his soul -- that needed moral compass -- BECAUSE of his horror about what he did. That is a very powerful message.

Then we come to season seven. They didn't immediately fall into each other's arms. It wasn't 'all better'. His once positive relationship with Dawn has been destroyed. In fact, he and Buffy are wary around each other, and though it is clear she forgave him (maybe even before he went for his soul -- b/c she took Dawn to his crypt for protection) it took time to HEAL, to become friends. He had to earn her trust, friendship, and eventually, love.

In arc of the series, it took until season ten for them to finally be in a stable relationship... This is not immediate magical redemption -- this is two screwed up people growing up and dealing with their issues. If you think that doesn't happen in the real world, you would be wrong. I know more than one recovering addict who, once they got their mind clear and made amends to their significant other (sometimes for horrible stuff) was able to rebuild a life with that person... with family.

Not having a soul is (IMO) worse than an addiction. Addicts know right from wrong... they just are under the sway of something more powerful than their moral compass... kind of like the demon. But they have that moral compass arguing with their addiction. Spike's moral compass is Buffy... but what he wants most is Buffy.

Anyway, their arc of healing to me, is one heck of a message. It isn't a neat, tidy message. It's not black and white. But it is REAL. LIFE is not black and white, folks. Life just is. In my opinion, the Buffy and Spike arc is a message that two messed up people could and did heal. One could argue that they healed each other. Buffy would be dead if it wasn't for Spike in season 6 (OMWF and maybe Death Things too). Both Spike and Angel became better people because of having Buffy in their lives. That makes Buffy one heck of a woman, as far as I am concerned.

Buffy is NO victim here. She is a true survivor.

That's the message. I don't think that's one of victimhood or easy outs. I think Buffy will make a lot of people think about what they want in a relationship that is problematic... and whether there's a possibility of true change. Most times in a bad relationship, there isn't, but sometimes, especially with younger people, and especially if both people are willing to get help for their issues (including addiction and a history of childhood abuse of any kind) there is a chance for healing and growing up.
 
I would not advise anyone under 15 to watch Buffy alone. If they did watch, it should be with a parent or adult who intended to discuss it with them frankly. I know I was abused as a child... maybe if someone had watched a show like Buffy with me when I was 12 or 13 and beginning my arc of misery and addiction, I might have been able to talk about it, instead of keeping it mostly a secret until I was 26 and nearly killing myself with my addiction.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Even with the AR majority of people see the stalking, stealing and the balcony scene as permissible acts.

Shakespeare wouldn't have had a problem with it. 😛

 

[white avenger]

Okay, color me stupid, I had to look up what the Me, Too Movement is. Now that I know, I would warn the person in question what was going to be depicted in that episode and let them decide for themselves, in advance, whether or not they would want to watch "Seeing Red" or not. Once they are forewarned, the decision would be theirs to make.

Of course, by that point, they would have undoubtedly already seen "Smashed" and "Gone," so they should have a pretty good idea just what the Buffy/Spike relationship was all about in Season 6.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

There are two attempted rapes in question here - the one in "Seeing Red" and the one in Season 7 where Spike is in the church and he starts in with "service the girl" then she tosses him into the pews and he says, "The girl doesn't want to be serviced."

I really don't think the actions by Spike in s7 constitute an attempted rape. It certainly doesn't fit the legal definition of sexual assault (or attempt) there is typically a requirement that the victim feels they are in apparent threat to bodily harm (definitions vary by state/statute). That is not the case here as I just saw this episode and he doesn't close to her or make any moves to indicate that his goal is to force himself on her. It was certainly uncomfortable and maybe inappropriate but not attempted sexual assault.

Buffy is NO victim here. She is a true survivor.

That's the message. I don't think that's one of victimhood or easy outs. I think Buffy will make a lot of people think about what they want in a relationship that is problematic... and whether there's a possibility of true change. Most times in a bad relationship, there isn't, but sometimes, especially with younger people, and especially if both people are willing to get help for their issues (including addiction and a history of childhood abuse of any kind) there is a chance for healing and growing up.

I don't believe that allowing Buffy the ability to process her experiences from s6 in season 7 would make her any less of a survivor and more of a victim. As a practical matter, many survivors of sexual assault join therapy, groups, talk to clergy, friends/family etc to manage their problems. That doesn't mean they are weak victims it means that they are brave enough to seek the help to find ways to process what they have been through. Now, I don't need to see all of this on the show because it isn't an after school special but I also don't think that allowing Buffy the space to process the assault on the show would have diminished my respect for her or made me feel she was playing the victim card instead of being strong. In fact, as a matter of personal experience from a close family member, I know that not talking/dealing with past trauma can be incredibly detrimental to getting back to a good place.

 

[thrasherpix]

With the #MeToo Movement going around, I was wondering how does the Seeing Red episode playout now in the current social culture?

I'm just sharing this because you might find it either funny and/or more to consider on this...it includes current movies that shouldn't fly in the MT movement:

I just saw it myself so other than a laugh I don't have anything to say about it right away.

 

[thetopher]

This is a person without a moral compass but with a wealth of feeling for the victim -- and no actual ill intent, in spite of what he did. (Bear in mind they had an ongoing, mutually violent, boundary-less relationship). This is an utterly out of control RELATIONSHIP. She almost beat him to death and he almost raped her. They are like two low-bottom addicts.

This is irrelevent given that they were no longer in a relationship; Buffy eneded it and had made it plain as to why; for weeks she had made it clear and respected Spike enough to keep her distance and be honezst with him. She made the mistake of treating him like a man.

Why? Because Spike DID have some sense of moral awareness- otherwise he WOULD NOT have acted the way he did after Buffy kicked him accross the bathroom. You cannot have it both ways; either he has NO moral awareness because 'lack of soul' or he has ENOUGH moral awareness to know that rape is bad and that he should go and get a soul as a sign of repentance.

But if he went to get a soul simply to 'get Buffy to love him again'- which is what in fact happened (no repentance, entitlement) then the conundrum is solved; he didn't 'feel bad' he just felt frustrated.


As for Buffy being a 'survivor'; that's an easy claim to make but we don't see HOW she copes with what happens (again the focus is on Spike) and so something that COULD have been a powerful message becomes an empty narrative for Spike to get another shot.

Then we come to season seven. They didn't immediately fall into each other's arms. It wasn't 'all better'.

By the sixth episode she is making excuses for 'his' behavior. Not immediately but not exactly an epic tale of redemption.
It either shouldn't have mattered (because this is not the same PERSON) or it should've a lot taken longer because of their history (this is how the show chose to play it).

And lets not get started on the 'rebooted' Spuffy from S10- for that has Buffy claiming that Spike has so much good in him that it didn't even need a soul to come out. Not only 'quality writing' but also increased moral responsibility for everything he did.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The criticism runs the gambit. Not all of us who dislike this story arc hold the same opinions and that is evident throughout the boards discussions. Similarly, not everyone who dislikes the late seasons Spike story arc is an Angel fan. It just so happens I am and unfortunately for me that appears to lose me some credibility in this discussion.

I know. I tried to acknowledge that. Please, realise that I wasn't speaking of you specifically. You're all right. I certainly wouldn't invalidate your opinion for being an Angel fan, because if I search my heart, I am an Angel fan, too ... or at least a Bangel fan.

I may get pilloried for this, but the #MeT00 movement is compartmentalized in a lot of women's minds. Haven't the last couple of decades of successful romantic comedies included harassment, stalking and not taking "no" for an answer? When Fifty Shades of Grey opened, it did $47 million the first weekend it was released and the paying viewers were mainly women. The lesson here is that if the correct man harasses, stalks and pushes the woman then it is OK and regardless of the principles involved, women have voted with their wallets to watch the "correct" man get the girl.

Maybe you should be pilloried for saying that (can someone telle me what pilloried means?). Is it not okay to put fantasy and reality in different compartments? I am sure men have fantasies that would not work in real life. I don't think I would find anything in 50 Shades that I could like, but I would not think of accusing fans of that franchise for being hypocrites. Fictions allows us to safely explore the more mysterious and darker parts of our psyche. Reality can be awfully constricting. I think we all need to sometimes watch something silly, such as James Bond loving all the ladies and killing all the Russians. Otherwise, our minds would blow up from pressure. What I mean to say is: I don't think any women want to date Christian Gray, but sometimes they like to imagine it, and that is fine.

I think the greatest achievement of Spuffy showing both the fantasy and the reality of dating someone like Spike. It plays on the duality between unbridled passion and mature self denial that runs through most of BtVS. They may have muddled it up a little in S7, but I think that if you watch even that season with kind eyes, you may discover that the writer had not lost the plot ... completely.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Maybe you should be pilloried for saying that (can someone telle me what pilloried means?). Is it not okay to put fantasy and reality in different compartments? I am sure men have fantasies that would not work in real life. I don't think I would find anything in 50 Shades that I could like, but I would not think of accusing fans of that franchise for being hypocrites. Fictions allows us to safely explore the more mysterious and darker parts of our psyche. Reality can be awfully constricting. I think we all need to sometimes watch something silly, such as James Bond loving all the ladies and killing all the Russians. Otherwise, our minds would blow up from pressure. What I mean to say is: I don't think any women want to date Christian Gray, but sometimes they like to imagine it, and that is fine.

I actually agree to an extend with @Ethan Reigns. Whether Twilight or 50 Shades (neither of which I have seen or ever will see) or whatever. It's all over TV shows and movies, sometimes subtle and sometimes it smacks you in the face. You even see it in the last few years in Buffy podcasts/metas. Xander, Angel and Riley get dragged through the mud for their 'abusive' behaviors but when it's outright abusive Spike it's all sexy and hot and perfectly acceptable. Women with a firm stance on morals, sexual conduct and what constitutes sexual assault and abuse will apply that to any situation throughout the show, sometimes going overboard IMO. But it's ok for Spike because he's got abs and cheekbones and he's funny. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up in a Western World way with all the Hollywood movies/shows and I escaped the conditioning or whatever but I would never fantasize about or imagine dating someone like Spike. I have a set of morals I judge people by, that goes for both real people and fictional characters. And nothing will change that, no cheekbones or abs or a flashy character. I can't fathom someone wanting to be stalked, abused and sexually assaulted. Or that they fantasize about this. I know it happens (which is sad in itself) but I can't fathom it.

I think the greatest achievement of Spuffy showing both the fantasy and the reality of dating someone like Spike. It plays on the duality between unbridled passion and mature self denial that runs through most of BtVS. They may have muddled it up a little in S7, but I think that if you watch even that season with kind eyes, you may discover that the writer had not lost the plot ... completely.

I think the greatest achievement of Spuffy is adding to rape culture. And not by accident but by design. As Whedon himself said the point was that 'we shouldn't demonize rapists'. So the whole thing was designed to make you feel bad for poor Spike and that could only happen by not giving Buffy's side a voice and an arc where she deals with what happened.