Comics...canon?!

[Btvs fan]

Hi

I know the comics are meant to be canon but I also read that Joss made a comment did he would have no problem ignoring them if he were to revive or return to the televised series. I have to say I have only glanced at a couple of issues online and in some respects I found it really departed from the spirit of the tv show and characters and some of the plot points seem really fantastical and far fetched. Buffy’s fling with Satsu, Giles becoming a teenager again?!! How do ppl generally feel?

Personally no.
I think the stories are terrible such as space sex with a man who murdered her Slayers. Buffy then proceeds to abandon them because Joss is bored with them. Plus the resolution to the whole Abortion storyline. Its not Buffy just a robot because Andrew roofied her rendering the whole plot moot WTF what a cop out !
You've also got some truly awful Artwork by Jeneatty. Who Joss brought back for the final season by the way. So he obviously loves it but I think it looks terrible.
Finally they basically just end the characters back in the same position to how the show ended in Chosen and Not Fade Away. Despite all the crazy things going on there's no real development

That’s a problem many supernatural shows have. Death has no meaning. If characters come back to life often times, then as a viewer we stop Having fears for them because we know deaths won’t last. It actually impact the investment in the story. Though Buffy is a show that doesn’t suffer too much of this Problem ( Angel and Buffy are the two people who were ressurected.. two overs 7 years that’s acceptable I think ).

It's the same way for the Buffy verse too argubly worse because fans make excuses for the BtVS verse.
Characters would be kept around either A because the fans liked them or the B The writers liked them. The writers wouldn't even pretend to craft a decent reason why.
Spike in Out of My Mind is a Prime example. Not just Buffy but both Riley and the Government should've been after him for this. But they don't because well reasons.... Now I love Spike but to not even bother an excuse why is dumb.
Another is Harmony which stretches from BtVS in Crush all the way to Ats in Not Fade Away. Hell in that it's even played for laughs with Angel giving her a reference.
While Dawn had no story purpose post S5 and was kept around cause they liked the actress. I'm guessing it's the same reason for Tom Lenk in Buffy S7 and even Angel S5.

As for resurrection of characters it happens all the time.
Buffy twice
Angel once
Darla once
Spike once Just to name 4
David Greenwalt also confirmed they wouldve brought Doyle back if Glen Quinn had gotten himself cleaned up

 

[Bop]

And if Joss were to gather the cast together and release BtVS13 as a TV show following on from BtVS12 would you consider them canon? Genuine question. 😊

That would probably make the comics more legitimate to me but as it stands they're optional. I've enjoyed some of the comics in their own right but I'll never see it as a canon continuation of the tv show because it can't be the tv show so I think canon stopped after Chosen/Not Fade Away.

 

[nightshade]

I view the comics in the same way as the Tales of the Slayer books, not canon, but easily could be.

However for me Not Fade Away was the end of the canon.

 

[TriBel]

Btvs fan comics have been huge since Gwen Stacey's death in the 70's

I said "recently", which is relatively non-specific. I also said "art form", which isn't the same as "popular".

Btvs fan You don't need help how to read a comic.

The number of books that have emerged on Amazon recently with titles such as "The Visual Language of Comics: Introduction to the Structure" and "Cognition of Sequential Images or Narrative Structure in Comics: Making Sense of Fragments" kinda suggest you do. I think Eisner and McCloud were among the earliest proponents. See Wiki's page on Comic Studies for a brief elaboration. It's only (fairly) recently it's developed its own critical language, which (personally), I see as a good thing.

Whistler as a mysterious messenger of a higher power who kind of works like a post modern angel, great, wonderful. Whistler as a half demon half power who is working for Twilight, a sapient universe that's trying to cause the seventh big event of season eight, eh, not so much.

To be fair, if Whistler's post-modern then almost anything goes. I genuinely didn't have a problem with Twilight - I think it can be inferred from Angel's relationship with his father, which implies a particular relationship to history. I agree about S8 though - it gives the impression of being written under the influence of Class A drugs.

but the underlying premises in the stories reflect thoughts by the creators of the series on how the back story of the show works

Again, agree but I'm not sure I'd call it "back story". For me it's its ideological/philosophical underpinnings that have stayed remarkably consistent.

 

[Btvs fan]

Btvs fan comics have been huge since Gwen Stacey's death in the 70's

I said "recently", which is relatively non-specific. I also said "art form", which isn't the same as "popular".

Btvs fan You don't need help how to read a comic.

The number of books that have emerged on Amazon recently with titles such as "The Visual Language of Comics: Introduction to the Structure" and "Cognition of Sequential Images or Narrative Structure in Comics: Making Sense of Fragments" kinda suggest you do. I think Eisner and McCloud were among the earliest proponents. See Wiki's page on Comic Studies for a brief elaboration. It's only (fairly) recently it's developed its own critical language, which (personally), I see as a good thing.



To be fair, if Whistler's post-modern then almost anything goes. I genuinely didn't have a problem with Twilight - I think it can be inferred from Angel's relationship with his father, which implies a particular relationship to history. I agree about S8 though - it gives the impression of being written under the influence of Class A drugs.

Again, agree but I'm not sure I'd call it "back story". For me it's its ideological/philosophical underpinnings that have stayed remarkably consistent.

Seeing as you weren't specific maybe you could be in terms of Timeline your talking about ?
Also don't be ridiculous, Comics are a popular story art form that sells. They always have been. It was designed for people specifically young kids to read and buy. Not for avant-garde Art Collectors to virtue signal on there cleverness. It's why you will always get stories of characters like Batman and Spiderman because they are popular and sell.
Stan Lee made it plain when he said the trick is to make the story seem different so the audience buys it but not to make the story to different that it puts them off.

 

[famicommander]

I consider these comics canon:
The Origin
Anything released as part of the "Seasons"
Post Not Fade Away IDW Angel (After the Fall through Yearbook, but not the earlier-released or historical setting stuff )
The High School Years
Spike: Asylum
Spike: Shadow Puppets
Spike: After the Fall
Spike: The Devil You Know
Spike: Into the Light
Illyria: Haunted
Spike (IDW)
Fray
Tales of the Slayers
Tales of the Vampires

They create some minor inconsistencies sometimes, but the shows themselves do that too. I don't like every single story arc or character but Joss himself has more or less endorsed all of this and that's good enough for me.

In particular I think the stuff written by Brian Lynch and the stuff by Christos Gage are some of the best stuff in any Buffy media.

 

[VisionGirl]

As for Whedon himself, yes he said that, but it was a long time ago. What he would do now and what he would consider now in regards to continuity to a television series or movie, is anyone’s guess. He is the creator and if he wants to consider something canon or disregard it as canon in relation to new material, well I suppose he has that right. But the fact is it exists. The canon is there.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

I can admit to actually not having read any of them but given what they did in their season 8, I have no desire to read any of them.

So sure the comics CAN be viewed as cannon but because of Joss showing that he would disregard them in a heartbeat then I feel it's perfectly ok to just seen them an non cannon but also in some instances badly written fanfiction.

Now given the rumours I've read regarding some of the writers of the comics in their favouritism towards characters they love, well from what I know of the comics, they don't feel like there is a fair and balance storytelling with certain characters.

And I think it can be easier to enjoy the comics and look at them as definite cannon if your favourite character or characters have been written in a more positive and fairer way.

So yes for me, the view that I have of Angel being character assassinated with the ridiculous Twilight story means that I see them as pure rubbish and even though the comics with Angel and Faith sound better (and am thankful they just let Angel and Faith stay as close friends), by that point I couldn't care less about the comics.

Still I guess if you enjoy the direction that they go in then you can be happy and satisfied they exist.

 

[Faded90]

No I don’t and mostly because I don’t want them to be

I’ve read them but I just don’t see them as our characters, they’re so out of character a lot of the time. If they aren’t playedby the actors they are in the show they just can’t be canon in my head
There is actually a few tiny things I like that I’m willing to accept like Buffy’s ‘romance’ with The Immortal being retconned and I actually kind of like Buffy, Faith and Willow ending up using their supernatural powers in a ‘normal’ way in the police and empowerment centre.
I just think if they’d made more seasons they wouldn’t have been anything like the comics so that settles in my head they aren’t canon

Also sorry Spuffies but Spuffy in the comics is just really bad, really cheesy fanfiction and I just don’t buy it at all. Buffy’s actions and words just are so out of character it’s ridiculous. Plus I think a lot of Spike’s charm comes from James and his character just doesn’t really translate as well on print for me.The issue before Spuffy get back together they have Dawn randomly have a go at Buffy for not giving Spike another chance at a relationship, Willow then pops along and says ‘yeah she’s right, he’s a decent guy now Buffy’. After everything that’s happened the idea that Dawn and Willow would think that Spike is somehow entitled to be with Buffy again simply because he’s a better person than he used to be is actually insulting to both Dawn and Willow’a characters

 

[AstridDante]

No I don’t and mostly because I don’t want them to be

I’ve read them but I just don’t see them as our characters, they’re so out of character a lot of the time. If they aren’t playedby the actors they are in the show they just can’t be canon in my head
There is actually a few tiny things I like that I’m willing to accept like Buffy’s ‘romance’ with The Immortal being retconned and I actually kind of like Buffy, Faith and Willow ending up using their supernatural powers in a ‘normal’ way in the police and empowerment centre.
I just think if they’d made more seasons they wouldn’t have been anything like the comics so that settles in my head they aren’t canon

Also sorry Spuffies but Spuffy in the comics is just really bad, really cheesy fanfiction and I just don’t buy it at all. Buffy’s actions and words just are so out of character it’s ridiculous. Plus I think a lot of Spike’s charm comes from James and his character just doesn’t really translate as well on print for me.The issue before Spuffy get back together they have Dawn randomly have a go at Buffy for not giving Spike another chance at a relationship, Willow then pops along and says ‘yeah she’s right, he’s a decent guy now Buffy’. After everything that’s happened the idea that Dawn and Willow would think that Spike is somehow entitled to be with Buffy again simply because he’s a better person than he used to be is actually insulting to both Dawn and Willow’a characters

Well as a Spuffy, I would be of your mind also that some of the plot points and how the character arcs are not in keeping with the characters which were shown and developed on the tv show which makes it harder for me to accept as canon. I could never imagine Dawn advocating for Spike after all the history there. That does sound cheesy and not in keeping with tv canon. I agree also that the actors bring the characters to life and a lot of things don’t translate very well to comics like you say the charm and charisma James brought to the Spike role

 

[Faded90]

Well as a Spuffy, I would be of your mind also that some of the plot points and how the character arcs are not in keeping with the characters which were shown and developed on the tv show which makes it harder for me to accept as canon. I could never imagine Dawn advocating for Spike after all the history there. That does sound cheesy and not in keeping with tv canon. I agree also that the actors bring the characters to life and a lot of things don’t translate very well to comics like you say the charm and charisma James brought to the Spike role

Absolutely. I could believe Dawn begrudgingly accepting them back together but no way does Dawn try to force the issue ‘you’re going to wake up on fire’. It’s ridiculous

 

[Priceless]

Dawn grows up a lot in the comics. She cheats on her boyfriend and has to live with the consequences of that, and I think it gave her a new perspective which she didn't previously have. Plus they go a year without seeing Spike, and when he does reappear he helps save them from Twilight. Spike also doesn't hang around when Buffy tells him she doesn't want a relationship with him.

He only comes back when magic has been destroyed and Dawn is starting to fade away. He stays with her in what could have been her final moments, and it's so obvious he loves her. I doubt anyone could stay as angry with him after that. Plus of course he did sacrifice himself at the end of Season 7.

 

[Faded90]

Dawn grows up a lot in the comics. She cheats on her boyfriend and has to live with the consequences of that, and I think it gave her a new perspective which she didn't previously have. Plus they go a year without seeing Spike, and when he does reappear he helps save them from Twilight. Spike also doesn't hang around when Buffy tells him she doesn't want a relationship with him.

He only comes back when magic has been destroyed and Dawn is starting to fade away. He stays with her in what could have been her final moments, and it's so obvious he loves her. I doubt anyone could stay as angry with him after that. Plus of course he did sacrifice himself at the end of Season 7.

Oh I have no issue with her liking Spike again or even being supportive of Spuffy getting back together. The problem is that she actually has a go at Buffy for not getting back with him, that’s what’s out of character - that she would force the issue when she knows what’s happened in the past

 

[white avenger]

As to whether the Dark Horse Seasons of the shows are canon, Joss has affirmed on more than one occasion that, yes, they are definitely canon. The confusion comes from his aside to that statement that, if at some future time, he chose to return to the Buffyverse with a new story line, he wouldn't hesitate to ignore the comics in favor of whatever new direction he wanted to take the characters. Until that time, the comics remain canon.

Having said that, it might be argued that exactly that thing happened with the Boom comics series, in which case, not only the Dark Side comics, but all 12 collective Seasons of the two televised shows, have been tossed in the trash, and we've got a whole new series that may have some similarities to the original, but, if so, it is pure coincidence, and nothing more.

Accept any or all of that for yourself. Personally, I accept the Dark Horse series, and choose to reject whatever it is that Boom is doing in their blasphemous series.

 

[Priceless]

Oh I have no issue with her liking Spike again or even being supportive of Spuffy getting back together. The problem is that she actually has a go at Buffy for not getting back with him, that’s what’s out of character - that she would force the issue when she knows what’s happened in the past

I think Dawn knows Buffy would be happier with Spike, so she tries to manoeuvre them together. I haven't read the comics in a while and I don't remember her having a go at Buffy for rejecting Spike. Maybe time for a re-read 😀

 

[famicommander]

As to whether the Dark Horse Seasons of the shows are canon, Joss has affirmed on more than one occasion that, yes, they are definitely canon. The confusion comes from his aside to that statement that, if at some future time, he chose to return to the Buffyverse with a new story line, he wouldn't hesitate to ignore the comics in favor of whatever new direction he wanted to take the characters. Until that time, the comics remain canon.

Having said that, it might be argued that exactly that thing happened with the Boom comics series, in which case, not only the Dark Side comics, but all 12 collective Seasons of the two televised shows, have been tossed in the trash, and we've got a whole new series that may have some similarities to the original, but, if so, it is pure coincidence, and nothing more.

Accept any or all of that for yourself. Personally, I accept the Dark Horse series, and choose to reject whatever it is that Boom is doing in their blasphemous series.

Do you know how many times Batman has been rebooted? Spider-Man? Superman? The Flash?

Why should Buffy comics be any different? The existence of the newer Boom comics doesn't erase the canon comics.

The concept of the multiverse is already baked right into the Buffyverse shows. It shouldn't be hard at all to imagine the Boom comics or the Dark Horse Classic comics or even the movie taking place on a slightly different version of earth. If there are an infinite number of possible realities, then every possibility becomes an eventuality, including one where there are no shrimp.

 

[fauxindigo]

Until they create a canon tv or film continuation, the comics stand as the official canon post Buffy season 7/angel season 5. Just because you don't like them or consider them canon doesn't make it so. 😂 It's a different medium- still the same creator and a lot of the same writers. Of course in seasons 8, 9, 10, 11 & 12, the tv show budget didn't exist but BtVS lent itself to the comic medium from the get go... and what is really too far fetched for the buffyverse? Isn't part of why we love it that anything could theoretically happen?
Season 8 was over the top but again, what was too far fetched for the buffyverse? If anything for me, I hated that Warren returned. On one hand, I loved that Amy finally got her due and moved into full blown villain mode but she only returned as a wing woman to WARREN?! I still like to tell myself that this storyline didn't play out this way. It also really undermines Willows descent into darkness in Season 6. Warren should've stayed DEAD. I highly doubt anyone was pining for his return. And then we had Dawn's transformations which were... interesting.. I loved the centaur, and the giant... even if the giant mecha-Dawn in Tokyo was a bit out there- it's Buffy! She's a superhero! it IS a fantastical universe. There was also so much I loved in Season 8. The crossover Time of your Life with not only Fray but future Dark Willow! Genevieve and Faith undercover in No Future for You. Dracula & Buffy/Satsu in Wolves at the Gate. There were so many good issues and arcs this season with great art! Also while I hated Warren returning, I loved Kennedy in Season 8 and we got other fun follow ups with Harmony, Oz & Riley to name a few.
Season 9 brought it back down to earth- which is what most people complain about with the comics that it's too fantastical or far fetched. with the scoobies settling in San Francisco, it does make for a cool new setting and characters. This is where the comics started to falter to me because I think they were trying to make it more "down to earth" like the tv show and that made it less innovative and exciting. I also agree with previous poster who said the abortion storyline was a total joke, especially after I thought they were seriously tackling a huge issue. On the other hand, Angel & Faith Season 9 is a masterpiece. If you only read one season of any of the comic seasons, I'd recommend this one. Daddy Issues & Family Reunion especially for the Drusilla, Faith & Giles content. Also really cool to see Willow, Faith, Angel & Connor in Quor Toth the dimension where Holtz took Connor in Angel season 3.
I'm still getting through Buffy and Angel&Faith Season 10 at the moment. I'm liking it better than Season 9 so far, but obviously I'm not as into them as I was around 10 years ago when we were in season 8. I kind of fell off after season 9 but I'm still planning to finish seasons 10,11 & 12. Also I loved how the Angel comics started to pick up as essentially Season 6 with L.A. in Hell. It's definitely bittersweet though because Angel should've gotten season 6 way more than Buffy should've or needed a season 8.
Oh well, I hope the new incarnations of the buffyverse do our love justice.

 

[white avenger]

Do you know how many times Batman has been rebooted? Spider-Man? Superman? The Flash?

Why should Buffy comics be any different? The existence of the newer Boom comics doesn't erase the canon comics.

No, but the original question concerned whether or not the comics (I assumed the Dark Horse series) were canon with the original TV series, which Whedon maintains that, for the moment, they are. Boom definitely moved Buffy into a parallel reality ,(maybe the Twilight Zone) but it is not canon with the TV series.

And recall, I said "Accept any or all of that for yourself." I have read both series, and I choose not to accept the Boom series as in any way canon to the show, Insofar as Joss has not, to my personal knowledge, said anything indicating one way or the other, I choose, after reading several issues, to disregard them.

(And, by the way, I began reading comics back in the '50's so, yes, I do know how many times those particular characters have been rebooted. I even remember back when the guy we all call Shazam now was Captain Marvel.)

 

[Faded90]

I think for me if Joss said he could disregard them as canon then that means I can too

I think it’s obvious that if they were to do the seasons in a tv show they would never have been even remotely like the comics so that settles it in my head

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: The Master Plan: I have no doubt Joss was mostly making up the show as he went along, but he is a professional writer and producer, he at least has a vague outline of what type of story he wants to tell, and he certainly has a notebook of ideas for stories he may want to tell. I mean, something like Ripper, presumably has lots of material that was written, or the cartoon.

Another Consideration: Joss basically retconed "After the Fall" out of existance, right? ATF was far more important to Angel than "Slayer, Inc fights Warren, who is not dead, and Amy, both of whom are evil now!" If he was willing to do that because he felt "Twilight" was the stronger story-line... And I think Season eight probably has grounds for being a legitimate expression of how the series would have continued, that claim is not as strong for seasons 9-12.

But ultimately, I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter. The '95 Verse is over, they may claim the new series will be in continuity with it, but, they said the same thing about Star Trek Discovery, and both comics and series will be adapted broad strokes.