Dead Man's Party-Did the scoobs act wrongly?
- Thread starter Xin Rong
- Start date
What they said to her was pretty reasonable. So she had the right to leave for her own personal reasons, what she went through was harsh, however she didn't even bother to call them to let them know that she was alive or to check that they were - let's face it, her profession is vampire slayer and they live on the hellmouth - if I was either party I'd be worried about the other. The only thing they did that was unreasonable was avoiding her and then dragging it all up in a public forum rather than addressing it privately and thus avoiding completely humiliating her.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
I don't agree with this. Apparently, the Scoobies didn't even consider what Buffy had went through in the S2 finale.
And two, there was no need to act in her place during the summer of '98. Exactly what were they doing before they met Buffy in "Welcome to the Hellmouth"? Slaying vampires and demons? I don't think so. And these same vampires and demons had been around long before Buffy's arrival in Sunnydale.
They're just pissed because Buffy failed to live up to their ideal of what she should be. That has always been the problem with the Scoobies. And this idealistic view of Buffy had led them to make the big mistake of bringing her back from the dead in S6.
I don't blame Buffy for leaving. Joyce told her that if she left she could never come back. Even if it was in a fit of anger, it was still said and was added to the pain of killing angel. And nobody even thought that maybe she had to kill Angel? Or maybe even killing Angelus was extreamly hard for her? They had become dependant on Buffy as their leader and once she was gone, felt abandoned. The way they acted when she returned was selfish, a good example is when Willow stood her up or when she turned her welcome home get together into a big party. I knew that was wrong from miles away and Willow couldn't stop to think that maybe the get together would have been a good time to discuss some things and clear the air? I have some strong opinons on this! haha. In my opinion, I think that the scoobies were in the wrong.
Ruminator
Townie
How could they when they had no idea what happened in the first place?
The thing I never understand when this episode is brought up and people start taking sides, is how people who defend Buffy here seem to expect everyone around Buffy to immediately be sensitive to her feelings when they have absolutely no clue what her problem is in the first place. I am not sure if it is because it is the Buffy character, so that immediately means many fans jump to her aid no matter what, or if it is because they just don't get the context, but whatever it is, it leaves a gaping hole in the logic involved.
But, again, before that point, they had no idea such things existed, right? Now that they did, they are just supposed to turn a blind eye to it while the demons and vampires kill people while Buffy is away? What would such a thing say about them?
I disagree. The mistake the Scoobies made when they brought Buffy back from the dead, and in some ways the same mistake they made here, was an inherent selfishness regarding the presence of Buffy. They wanted her around so badly that they ignored the possibility (at least Willow did in the opening of Season 6) that perhaps Buffy was in a better place when she was dead. And in this case, they so selfishly worried about Buffy's whereabouts that they didn't really wonder about what would have drove her to such lengths to begin with.
And let's not forget Buffy's own inherent selfishness and what it cost the people around her. Not just here, but how about in the beginning of Season 2, "When She Was Bad". Her stubborn refusal to deal with the emotional trauma caused by her confrontation with The Master nearly resulted in her alienating all her friends on top of nearly getting them killed.
The point being, it was really a conflict of selfish desires that was the root cause here.
Yes they did. They specifically said as much at the very end of Season 2. The last lines of dialogue have the Scoobies postulating all the possibles, from the idea that Angel was saved and they were off somewhere, to the idea that it worked too late and she still had to kill Angel. They were well aware that these things could have happened, but since Buffy never told them, they couldn't be sure. Is that not Buffy's fault?
It was very frustrating to me when Buffy never explained what happened. If she had, many things could have been avoided. For her to say that she never told them because "they would not understand" just does not cut it for me, because I think that the scoobies have fought with her and been there for her enough to be able to take it. And I really just wanted to shut Xander up too. I know that they speculated about Angel but why would they not ask her or try talking to her? I think that if I had beein in the scoobies situation when they were without Buffy, I could not have been able to just turn a blind eye. I agree with Ruminator about that and about the buffy being dead situation in S6. The Scoobies were selfish and were grieving and did something irrational without thinking about the possibility that they should leave Buffy as she was.
Eleftheria
Scooby
I was hoping i could find a thread to express my feelings for this episode...YEAH they were too harsh...let's go back to season 2 finale...Buffy's mom kicked her out because she couldn't accept the real Buffy...which is the Slayer...Angel was evil and there was no hope to bring his soul back...Xander lied to her about the spell("kick his ass" come on...!!!)...she killed ENSOULED ANGEL...the love of her life!she was depressed!i mean they could have tried to understand her a little bit...she's been through a lot and she is only 17...she saved the world but she sacrificed Angel...
When Buffy returns she tries to be more intimate with her friends...she tries to talk to Willow but she's too busy...if i were one of the scoobies...i would be more interested to find out why on earth Buffy left and what had happened with Angel...i felt so sorry for Buffy at this episode
When Buffy returns she tries to be more intimate with her friends...she tries to talk to Willow but she's too busy...if i were one of the scoobies...i would be more interested to find out why on earth Buffy left and what had happened with Angel...i felt so sorry for Buffy at this episode
PrincessBuffy16
Scooby
I must say, I felt bad for her. She killed the man she loves, but they all thought she killed a monster. But that is no excuse, soul or no soul, she loved him, and it was stupid of them to think that that wouldn't affect her. I was mad at Willow, because she was like you didn't talk to me, and Buffy's excuse was that it was really hard for her to talk about that, because they wouldn't understand. And then later in season when she is having a secret romance with Xander, she didn't told Buffy. She was going to, but she didn't know how, just like Buffy didn't know earlier. And that was two faced. I must say I thought Xander would feel like that, he never liked Angel, so I think he was thinking why should she care about him so much? But he realized when he found love of his own 🙂
Amanda108
Potential
I don't particularly blame the Scoobies or Buffy, but does anyone else get really mad at Joyce? Most people seem to think that Joyce is the one with a right to be angry, but personally she makes me sick in this episode.
I know she's popular, so let me explain before I get killed 😀
I certainly sympathize with what she went through over that summer, but IMO *never* is it acceptable to tell your underage child not to come back like she did in Becoming- no matter how upset, shocked, or scared you are. But, hey, she's only human so I would have forgiven her for that. It's the fact that in this episode, rather than feeling awful for what she said, she dares to get mad that Buffy- a vulnerable teenager- took her seriously and sarcastically says, "Well, guess what? Mom's not perfect, okay?" That isn't acknowledging her mistake, it's passing the blame on to the victim.
I know she's popular, so let me explain before I get killed 😀
I certainly sympathize with what she went through over that summer, but IMO *never* is it acceptable to tell your underage child not to come back like she did in Becoming- no matter how upset, shocked, or scared you are. But, hey, she's only human so I would have forgiven her for that. It's the fact that in this episode, rather than feeling awful for what she said, she dares to get mad that Buffy- a vulnerable teenager- took her seriously and sarcastically says, "Well, guess what? Mom's not perfect, okay?" That isn't acknowledging her mistake, it's passing the blame on to the victim.
DetectiveYeslew
Townie
I find the episode one of the most difficult of the series to watch. The way the Scoobies turn on Buffy is dreadful and very nasty and my heart bleeds for poor Buffy throughout. This is also one of those episodes that makes me hate Xander. If he had told Buffy in Becoming what Willow was up to, she would never had sent Angel to hell, thus breaking her heart and then she would never have run away. Instead he facililates that situation in a way which leads her to make the decision to leave and then when she comes back he joins the rest in throwing (metaphorical) stones at her. Bad Xander.
Not my favourite moment for the character I have to say.
Not my favourite moment for the character I have to say.
Dead Man's Party
The Good;
Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder
The Bad;
Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?
Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)
Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'
Shot;
Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'
Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together
Questions and observations;
So where is Dawn in all of this? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel. Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practicing witchcraft and growing more proficient.
6/10, good but not brilliant
The Good;
Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder
The Bad;
Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?
Best line;
Oz; "And a hootenany. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)
Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'
Shot;
Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'
Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together
Questions and observations;
So where is Dawn in all of this? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel. Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practicing witchcraft and growing more proficient.
6/10, good but not brilliant
Yeah, I'm watching the episode and I have no idea why everyone but Giles is being a big bitch.
She's saved the world a couple times, and she killed her lover right after he came back to her.
Not a single person on the show has gone through that trauma, or has earned that sort of respect. Giles is closest to understanding and perhaps that's why he wasn't a big douchebag.
I dunno. Xander does tend to act insane from time to time, so it wasn't too unexpected. But Willow and her Mom were pretty much out of their minds.
It was kind of frustrating, actually.
It's like, if anyone deserved some leeway, it'd be Buffy, but almost everyone was on her tits over her pain. So pathetic.
She's saved the world a couple times, and she killed her lover right after he came back to her.
Not a single person on the show has gone through that trauma, or has earned that sort of respect. Giles is closest to understanding and perhaps that's why he wasn't a big douchebag.
I dunno. Xander does tend to act insane from time to time, so it wasn't too unexpected. But Willow and her Mom were pretty much out of their minds.
It was kind of frustrating, actually.
It's like, if anyone deserved some leeway, it'd be Buffy, but almost everyone was on her tits over her pain. So pathetic.
Eleftheria
Scooby
Grey Ghost
From the land of Giles
I think that Buffy got the crap end of the deal here. Nobody really cared for what she had gone through, the Scoobies knew what had happened but soon forgot. They treated her if she had done wrong, Xander suddenly becomes the he-man and as a go at her, Willow who is suppossed to be her closest friends wont listen and her mum's friend who only knows one side of the story pokes her nose in. Then there's this party which is suppossed to be for her but nobody knows or even cares who Buffy is and feels like her friends are like that too.
They soon changed their minds when they needed her to sort out the zombies and literally the neighbour from hell!
They soon changed their minds when they needed her to sort out the zombies and literally the neighbour from hell!
Well, the first time I watched this episode, I was really upset at Xander and Joyce for what they were saying to Buffy. They just didn't know what happened and pretty much anyone can relate to what Buffy was feeling then. That's one of the many scenes where Buffy really touched me. You just feel how confused she is, and she doesn't fight back right away, because she's not sure if what she did was right or wrong.
To be honest, I expected Buffy to smack Xander right at the end of that scene, before the zombies crashed into the house. He's really tough with her through pretty much the whole series. And you just realize how big their friendship is since they stay friends despite it all.
To be honest, I expected Buffy to smack Xander right at the end of that scene, before the zombies crashed into the house. He's really tough with her through pretty much the whole series. And you just realize how big their friendship is since they stay friends despite it all.
GrrArghx
No touching my clipboard!
Way harsh. It doesn't matter that they didn't know the full situation, they still knew Buffy had killed Angel (regardless of if they knew he was Angelus or not), and they knew that had to have affected her. It was wrong.
The only person who had a right to act a little harsh is Joyce, because obviously she couldn't have understood. Still though, atleast she came back. & they should've made her feel a little more welcomed instead of making her feel like she wasn't wanted. I know they were upset with her, but still.
The only person who had a right to act a little harsh is Joyce, because obviously she couldn't have understood. Still though, atleast she came back. & they should've made her feel a little more welcomed instead of making her feel like she wasn't wanted. I know they were upset with her, but still.
E
Eleftheria
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