Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" (WB-US) - Airing 5/19/04

Alyson said:
But why would they just bring all of them to kill just angel, gunn and spike? I mean thats a bit over-reacting, maybe that was a trigger to them and now they wont wait aroundanymore and do tnhings they "behind the scenes" way they will kill the earth all in one shot.
Click to expand...

No. stormwolfe's got it right. The Senior Partners will continue to manipulate and control from behind the shadows. Trust me on this. I know. 🙂

Anyway, why are you so sure the SPs want to actually destroy the Earth in a straightforward, matter-of-fact way, eh? Wouldn't the extraordinary lengths they've gone to indicate otherwise? Even Angel admitted that destroying the Black Thorn will only be (if you'll forgive the pun) a small thorn in the SPs' side. The SPs will be going on and on... long, long after we're all dead and gone. And I'm not sure they're plans for Earth are as simple as plain old destruction. (Nevermind the fact that that's what `apocalypse' means 🙂 )
 
Well.. I.. you actually have a good point there, i cant think of one situation where it was pointed ot of their intentions I guess we all just assumed thats what they wanted to do. But still.. Im right..
 
1st post here guys so hello

i watched the last 2 eps last night for the 1st time.......

I still think the final season has been rushed... just like in buffy..... joss gets told sorry no more buffy this is the last season and i felt that the last few eps just felt rushed......

Buffy dying in season 5 was it had a bigger impact on me...
same with angel.....

the ending was good dont get me wrong.... felt sorry for wes...... and i know joss has a thing of leaving his viewers wanting more....... but the reality is ........ the chances of the jossverse carrying on is very slim aint it.......

to be honest i wanted it all wrapped up.......
if angel and co in the alley were to die fighting those demons then i wanted to see and know they died.....

what happens now??
 
Exactly the question that they want us to fuigre out. I wanna know!!! *throws tantrum*
That also brings me to anther question, when you mentioned how everyone reconed that seaosn 5 had the prefect ending. It was all rapped and anything, but they went on. What do you guys think Angels was? I think they coulda also ended it season 3, that was wrapped.
 
Alyson said:
Exactly the question that they want us to fuigre out. I wanna know!!! *throws tantrum*
That also brings me to anther question, when you mentioned how everyone reconed that seaosn 5 had the prefect ending. It was all rapped and anything, but they went on. What do you guys think Angels was? I think they coulda also ended it season 3, that was wrapped.
Click to expand...

wow i cant even remember what happened in season 3 .....

I just hate it being left so open.......
how can we figure out what happened to angel and so on.....

i am so gonna miss the joss verse...

surley he will carry on some how ??

i just liked the way all his shows had a different feel to every other tv show out there....
 
richarrd said:
wow i cant even remember what happened in season 3 .....

I just hate it being left so open.......
how can we figure out what happened to angel and so on.....

i am so gonna miss the joss verse...

surley he will carry on some how ??

i just liked the way all his shows had a different feel to every other tv show out there....
Click to expand...

About the worst that could happen is he gets sent back to hell again. It didn't stop him last time. 🙂
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
About the worst that could happen is he gets sent back to hell again. It didn't stop him last time. 🙂
Click to expand...


That all must have died....... the amount of demons at the end they must have died...... i mean gunn was a dead man walking.

some 1 was talking about a comic series some where.... will there be ??? carrying on from angel and buffy..... ???
has joss got any plans ??

I want to know what happens to spike and angel 🙁 Ok and gunn
 
What about the four movies that appearently are coming out. i never heard anything since James was on rove which was like.. 4 months ago. Maybe thats going to have some explanation aswell. But I wann just keep with my happy ending they'll probely make it everyone dies lol
 
Alyson said:
What about the four movies that appearently are coming out. i never heard anything since James was on rove which was like.. 4 months ago. Maybe thats going to have some explanation aswell. But I wann just keep with my happy ending they'll probely make it everyone dies lol
Click to expand...


Well i heard about the 4 tv based movies....
It was a rumor was it not ??? i heard that David / angel did not want to do it and was glad that angel was over as he was getting bored with the character and wanted to do new things......

reality is that if a short tv series came out to wrapp things up it would need all the characters would it not ??? i cant see it happeneing really and we would need buffy......

I dont need ajust angel wrapped up
I need the whole joss verse wrapped up .... surley i am not thew only 1...... after watching it for like 10 years ...
 
yea your not the only one. woa 10 yewars, that seems like a long time! Mind you i wasen't there from the start..
 
richarrd said:
That all must have died....... the amount of demons at the end they must have died...... i mean gunn was a dead man walking.

some 1 was talking about a comic series some where.... will there be ??? carrying on from angel and buffy..... ???
has joss got any plans ??

I want to know what happens to spike and angel 🙁 Ok and gunn
Click to expand...

There have been Buffy comics out for a while. I'm not sure if they continue the story of Buffy herself though. I'm pretty sure there's comics where Nikki (the slayer Spike killed in New York) and other slayers get to have some short stories told about their lives.

Then there's also some weird comic that continues the story of the slayer off into the semi-distant future. The slayer has an "ersatz watcher" and that funky axe-that-we-call-a-scythe thing introduced in season seven Buffy. Actually, according to someone that was commenting here at that time, the scythe came from the comic first.

At this point, the "Buffy-verse" or "Joss-verse" has become expanded rather large. It's now not the sort of thing that's likely to be "wrapped up" with a few mini-series-like episodes.

And, as for what happened to Angel, Spike, Gunn, and (you forgot) Illyria: you've got to remember it's a story, not reality. There's always a way to save the characters in a story, and if you're a good writer, it usually won't seem to cheesy or too corny.

I'm not any kind of writer, let alone a good one, but one way we could keep our heroes alive would be a last second save by Willow. 😀 Maybe that's cheep or corny, but I like it.

"Open ended" is the way that some stories are ended, you'll just have to learn to accept it and perhaps learn how to supply your own endings for stories if you feel the one that's been given is inadequate.
------------
Now, here are two random smiles that dont have to do with the post since I just woke up :cat: , and I'm gonna drink some pop. :drink:
 
hehe that last bit made me laugh! 😀
Or if they wanted a corny ending, the dragons and stuff could get a sudden allergy to oxygen and fall down nd die 😀
 
Alyson said:
hehe that last bit made me laugh! 😀
Or if they wanted a corny ending, the dragons and stuff could get a sudden allergy to oxygen and fall down nd die 😀
Click to expand...

lol. I would hope the SPs could plan better than that, but yeah that would both work and be corny.
 
Then there's also some weird comic that continues the story of the slayer off into the semi-distant future. The slayer has an "ersatz watcher" and that funky axe-that-we-call-a-scythe thing introduced in season seven Buffy. Actually, according to someone that was commenting here at that time, the scythe came from the comic first.


-------------------

Thank you for your reply
I did not know that the jossverse was so huge............

I just wish i made more . I enjoyed watching spike for his comedy, buffy and angel kicking ass.... Just everything about the show.......
cant belive it is other..........
i might have to sell my buffy vids and buy the dvds to see the extras
 
From "Not Fade Away":


ANGEL: This isn't a keep-fightin'-the-good-fight kind of deal. Let's be clear. I'm talking about killing every... single... member... of the Black Thorn. We don't walk away from that.

LORNE: Do we crawl away, at least?

ANGEL: We do this, the Senior Partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.

GUNN: We know the drill.

ANGEL: No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give."


What is really necessary for Angel to give the Senior Partners that kind of message? One that might end in the deaths of the entire Fang Gang? One that might have endangered the entire city of Los Angeles? Couldn't he have considered just simply walking away from Wolfram & Hart?

Or was this another example of Angelus' grandiose way of doing things? Being the artist. Just as he did, when he tormented both Buffy and Spike in late S2. What happened to him then? Spike betrayed him and Buffy sent him to a hell dimension. And in "Not Fade Away", it seems that another grandiose message may have resulted in disaster for more than just the Circle of the Black Thorn and the Senior Partners.
 
LadyLavinia said:
What is really necessary for Angel to give the Senior Partners that kind of message? One that might end in the deaths of the entire Fang Gang? One that might have endangered the entire city of Los Angeles? Couldn't he have considered just simply walking away from Wolfram & Hart?
Click to expand...
No.

LadyLavinia said:
Or was this another example of Angelus' grandiose way of doing things?
Click to expand...
"Angelus" is the bad one, "Angel" is the good one. Although, I admit sometimes it's hard to tell them apart. 🙂

LadyLavinia said:
Being the artist. Just as he did, when he tormented both Buffy and Spike in late S2. What happened to him then? Spike betrayed him and Buffy sent him to a hell dimension. And in "Not Fade Away", it seems that another grandiose message may have resulted in disaster for more than just the Circle of the Black Thorn and the Senior Partners.
Click to expand...
Despite the way things looked at the end of the episode, I seriously doubt that the rest of the city was put into peril by Angel's actions. But if you want to believe that Angel(us)'s "grandiose" plan caused the deaths of many people in the city so that you can hate him more, then go for it.

Remember though that when Angel does something "grandiose", the true cause is usually that the writers want something big and dramatic to occur in the story.
 
On the record, and I expect a lot of people on this board will criticize me because of this, I think S5 of Angel was very badly done and basically ruined the show.

I general I like to ignore it. Even stellar episodes, and there were a very, very few like You're Welcome didn't integrate into the rest of the series or explain major plot points. In S5 of Buffy, Joyce's death got a far more important treatment than Cordelia's did in S5 of Angel.

Cordelia was a primary character and did not die a natural death, yet her death had no impact. All of the characters went about their lives and did not once cry or stop to grieve in the succeding episodes. That is inexcuseibly bad writing. Human beings do not fail to react when a friend dies.

Personally I thought Wesley was completely out of character the entire season, he acted like he was on happy drugs. Also, since when does a Whedonverse show introduce a major story element like the robot of Wesley's dad, which by the way was so much better than the Buffybot that it is scarcely believable that whoever made it did not know Mr. Wyndam-Pryce exceedingly well, and never connect it to the rest of the story?

In addition, Fred is an astrophysicist. She never evidenced any prior interest in artifacts. In fact, in season 4, she specifically complained that doing research Wesley-style was increadibly hard for her. So why in S5 did she drop her supersymmetry and string theory research, which she was recognized in, and become Angel's version of a CSI/demon biologist?

I think that the ending of the season is another example of its poorly concieved storylines, and as much as I like to argue about Angel I have little wish to argue why anything happened in this season.

As for Angel's attack on the Circle of the Black Thorn, I think it was a pointless attempt to do something against W&H that didn't accomplish anything at all. Angel basically conceded in the last episode that Lilah was right all along. In the end evil will always win despite our own feeble efforts to stop it.
 
Season Five pretty much killed most of it's potential not because they chose to but they were pretty much backed into the situation of it all. However I can't say the entire season was bad because Smile Time was really an incredible episde.

More OT. Not Fade Away was possibly the worst Angel episode I have ever seen. The last few Angel's being the worst Wheedon episodes of all time. It had it's moments such as Connor showing up and saying "You show up for a visit and the world's not ending?" But mostly it was a complete let down. I truly wish some of the actors( David Boreanaz ) would come off their high horse of the big screen and come back for a nice tv movie to atleast thank the fans for all their years of support.
 
H
Hitome
I completely agree with you about the last few episodes. Yay for honesty.
Hitome said:
On the record, and I expect a lot of people on this board will criticize me because of this, I think S5 of Angel was very badly done and basically ruined the show.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I seemed to remember that you were the person that thought that.

Ok, first let me briefly address your general complaints: You might be right. You might not. I personally didn't have any huge problems with S5. There were some episodes, especially in the beginning that didn't really do anything for me, likewise there were some characters, like Nina, that seemed ulmiately rather unecessary. But I liked the season. OTOH, I don't feel the season was in any way so great or awesome that I should try to make you see things my way. To put it another way: season five is good (IMO), but it ain't Shakespear. 🙂 If you didn't like it, fair enough. If you thought it was the worst thing ever conceived and that somehow one bad season destroys the value of the entire series, that's really unfortunate for you. Note that feeling that way won't actually change anything though. It's not like Joss and co. are gonna go back and issue an apology for you or rewrite and reshoot the season just to please you. If you want, you could write your own version of S5, but what would be the point? Anyway, moving on...

Hitome said:
[general complaints deleted]
Angel basically conceded in the last episode that Lilah was right all along. In the end evil will always win despite our own feeble efforts to stop it.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I think the message was supposed to be: yes, the Beast, the Power o' Evil is huge and insurmountable, but it can never truly win so long as we don't turn our backs on the fight against it. Or something like that.

Perhaps the story should have more clearly laid out the positive consequences of Angel and co. destroying the Black Thorn. Presumably, the world would appear to move along as normal, but behind the scenes, things would be improving for humans in general, at lesat for a while. In general, less corruption in government, fewer evil demons in congress, fewer bad guys getting off scott free, fewer madmen in power, fewer genocide events worldwide, etc.

Of course this would be temporary, and we don't know how long it would last (personally, I'll guess somewhere from 50-100 years). But even if they do kill Angel in the alley, there's Connor to carry on the fight. And a whole bunch of slayers around the world. 🙂 And the beat goes on...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom