Discussion of 8.12 "Wolves at the Gate Part 1" - Released 03/05/07 (Dark Horse)

nerd4hire said:
I think it would be kind of neat if Willow could tap into Dawn's keyness in some way, and transport the whole crew to Japan through her. It would give Dawn a reason for being there, because really, why do they even need her? Also Dawn becomes a little more interesting.

Edit:



Exept that isn't what I said. 🙂 I like Dawn. I want them to make her matter in Season 8.
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Ok I admit that I am really not Dawn's biggest fan but I genuinely agree with what you said. Dawn is literally just sitting around doing nothing. Her character needs a point stat!
 
I loved Dawn in season 7 so I want to continue to love her, and yes giving her a real reason to be there would be great..but...Her not being anything more than a girl is also good because it's what the rest of us are. Normal. Don't get me wrong, I want to see something neat happen with Dawn, but she is ok to me being there. Maybe being the junior watcher she was on the show would be a good position for her. I just wish she could get back to size so she can start doing that job.
 
Right now, I'm liking having Dawn as comic relief. I agree that she should eventually become significant to the main arc, but that doesn't mean I'm not enjoying the inherent comedy of Dawn-as-a-giant. I like it. I'm willing to stick it out a bit longer before I start clamoring for something more significant.


Sidenote: I finally stole the freakin' scythe! That's right, Japanese Dracula vamps! Eat your hearts out! Indra didn't have to shapeshift or anything. She just had a good, old fashioned, knock-out, drag-out sword fight.
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
lol, also just wanted to point out we had that story planned months ago in the RPG planning forum! :)
Maybe Willow has a magic network to the Slayer bases they she can teleport anyone to easily, Scott Allie has just stated in an interview that there are Slayer bases in "San Francisco, Chicago, Tuscany, Scotland, Tokyo, New York, and Cleveland."
 
Dawn desperately needs a storyline. As Xander so eloquently pointed out in "potential" she is basically the female Xander, which is essentially pointless. She needs to find her own exceptionalness other than following in the Summers girl sluttiness. (Even Joyce did Giles on the patrol car.)
 
S
Spike Angelus
Twice! :)
^ Does doing Giles on a police car actually make Joyce "slutty?" If so, sign me up! I mean... err... nevermind.

Anywho... Am I seriously the only one who's digging the funny? I mean, really... I loved it when Dawn splashed Xander, when she slept in the barn, when she spoke almost amorously to her socks... etc. Dawn's really funny! She's not as funny as Xander, but almost!
 
J
Joyce Summers
I signed on to that list a while back. Don't be ashamed, embrace it. Haha.
Summers girls are all slutty in a good way.
 
J
Joyce Summers
That is a sentence I never thought I'd ever hear anyone say. And it made me do a double take for several different reasons. And then after that it made me laugh.
I don't think anyone of them could be considered 'sluts' good way or bad 😉 If you think so you must live in a much smaller world then me 😛
 
Lets define slutty as sex in a casual, non committed sort of way. Keep in mind I'm not calling them like super mega sluts. I don't mean it to be derogatory since I would fall into that category myself, but its just the reality, that behaviors should carry some sort of consequence and you don't just get a pass, otherwise there's no reason not to engage in the behavior.
 
That comment is sooo overshadowing poor Dawnie and her gigantism.

Now I'm thinking about how sad it is that Giles is not real, so I can not sign up for that list. That, and I'm waaaay too chicken to do it on a cop car. Not even *in* a cop car. Not even in or on a cop car with my hubby instead of with Giles. It all boils down to one thing: I don't wanna be arrested! That's just asking to be arrested, man, and who needs that? Joyce and Giles were way more brave than I am. Then again, they had band candy to make them bold.

And now... my Giles centric mind is getting back to Wolves at the Gate to ask... when do you think we'll see Giles again? I sorta hate this Giles/Buffy parting of ways thing. I loved their relationship on the show. I'm missing my father/daughter bonding, man. I also missed the explanation of the rift. *Why* aren't they on speaking terms? Is this still over the him trying to kill Spike thing, or did I miss something while reading the comics?

(I didn't say my mind would wander too far from Giles, now did I?)
 
A
alexa
Yeah I miss Giles too. Wonder when the reconcilliation will be :(
I think this is one of the best issues I have read so far, I love xander and renee getting it together it was done very sweetly. I am loving the new vamps and even Dracula appearing at the end.

But the Buffy and Satsu thing I am not sure of, it was handled well but I just dont see Buffy being gay, also they have done the gay thing with Willow. Hope it was just a one off which then makes me feel sorry for Satsu as she obviously has feelings for Buffy.

Why do they make Buffy sleep with everyone - shes going to get a name for herself!!!!!!! 😉
 
crabby patty said:
Why do they make Buffy sleep with everyone - shes going to get a name for herself!!!!!!! 😉
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I actually have a theory about this. I think it's about "decriminalizing" sex for female heroines. Buffy is supposed to be sort of ironic and push traditional gender roles at the same time, right? I mean, she's the traditional blonde high school student/co-ed running from the big bad in the horror movie, but the twist is that she turns around and takes out a big can of girl power whupass on the bad guy. Well, keep playing with that notion. A commonly remarked upon horror movie staple is that the "slutty" girl is killed first and that the virginal girl is the one who eventually prevails/is saved. It's an incredibly sexist notion -- that supports the sexual double standard (and goes back to fairy tales, too, by the way). But Buffy can get her groove on AND still be the heroine. She is not defined by her sex life; she is defined by her calling as a world-saving, butt-kicking heroine. In the Buffyverse, a woman's fulfillment of her sexual urges does not have to be punished by death or loss to the big bad.
 
A
alexa
[No message]
palabravampiress said:
I actually have a theory about this. I think it's about "decriminalizing" sex for female heroines. Buffy is supposed to be sort of ironic and push traditional gender roles at the same time, right? I mean, she's the traditional blonde high school student/co-ed running from the big bad in the horror movie, but the twist is that she turns around and takes out a big can of girl power whupass on the bad guy. Well, keep playing with that notion. A commonly remarked upon horror movie staple is that the "slutty" girl is killed first and that the virginal girl is the one who eventually prevails/is saved. It's an incredibly sexist notion -- that supports the sexual double standard (and goes back to fairy tales, too, by the way). But Buffy can get her groove on AND still be the heroine. She is not defined by her sex life; she is defined by her calling as a world-saving, butt-kicking heroine. In the Buffyverse, a woman's fulfillment of her sexual urges does not have to be punished by death or loss to the big bad.
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I agree about the theory that they are trying to decriminalize sex for female heroines, however while Buffy never died becuase of her sexcapades she was punished for it. I mean the curse was pretty frickin cruel. Parker can maybe be chalked up to college experience but again she was forced to learn a harsh lesson as a consequence of sex and well her relationship with Spike speaks for itself. 3 out of her 5 sexual partners have resulted in Buffy being punished in some way. I find that a little disturbing.
 
Orignally posted by Palabravampiress
Now I'm thinking about how sad it is that Giles is not real, so I can not sign up for that list. That, and I'm waaaay too chicken to do it on a cop car. Not even *in* a cop car. Not even in or on a cop car with my hubby instead of with Giles.
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I agree on the whole sometimes-you-have-to-face-reality-as-the-Giles-fantasy-temporarily-shatters. It's a bad, bad thing but eventually I retreat back to the imaginary bubble. 🙂 Haha. As for the being-too-chicken..I *SO* won't tell you what I was like as a teenager. ::runs off in shame/embarrassment/something else::

Originally posted by Keanoite
I agree about the theory that they are trying to decriminalize sex for female heroines, however while Buffy never died becuase of her sexcapades she was punished for it. I mean the curse was pretty frickin cruel. Parker can maybe be chalked up to college experience but again she was forced to learn a harsh lesson as a consequence of sex and well her relationship with Spike speaks for itself. 3 out of her 5 sexual partners have resulted in Buffy being punished in some way. I find that a little disturbing.
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It is definitely disturbing but also realistic. Yeah, sometimes everything does work out (As seen with Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya...I'm counting out the eventual ending here as they were all successful long term relationships) but a lot of the time in reality sex leads to badness. I think since Buffy is the heroine and so technically 'got the luckiest/best part of everything' with being the superhero with the powers and the confidence etc she was the one they could use as 'look how bad sexual relationships can go' example as doing to let's say Willow, would have been too much. 'She's shy, awkward, classed as a geek *and* her first time left her dumped and alone?'. Unfortunately this means Buffy is doomed to be cookie dough for a very long time.
 
The Chosen
The Chosen
happy birthday karma! :D
Joyce Summers said:
It is definitely disturbing but also realistic. Yeah, sometimes everything does work out (As seen with Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya...I'm counting out the eventual ending here as they were all successful long term relationships) but a lot of the time in reality sex leads to badness. I think since Buffy is the heroine and so technically 'got the luckiest/best part of everything' with being the superhero with the powers and the confidence etc she was the one they could use as 'look how bad sexual relationships can go' example as doing to let's say Willow, would have been too much. 'She's shy, awkward, classed as a geek *and* her first time left her dumped and alone?'. Unfortunately this means Buffy is doomed to be cookie dough for a very long time.
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Maybe it would have made for a lesser show but I think Buffy always being punished for having sex sends out a very dangerous mixed message. Buffy was supposed to go against old clichés, I can't help but find the fact that she nearly always suffers huge cosequences when she has sex disappionting. It contradicts the shows message. I'm not saying she has to settle down and raise a family but let the girl get some without her whole world (and sometimes THE world) crashing down around her.
 
Keanoite said:
Maybe it would have made for a lesser show but I think Buffy always being punished for having sex sends out a very dangerous mixed message. Buffy was supposed to go against old clichés, I can't help but find the fact that she nearly always suffers huge cosequences when she has sex disappionting. It contradicts the shows message. I'm not saying she has to settle down and raise a family but let the girl get some without her whole world (and sometimes THE world) crashing down around her.
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I always just figured Buffy's inability to establish a lasting relationship was her tragic flaw, something similar to the Greek hero Heracles' fits of sudden insane rage. Both were used to make an otherwise perfect hero slightly less than omnipotent. Superman has Kryptonite, Buffy has then inability to hold on to a long term lover. Or am I just imagining things?
 
It contradicts the shows message. I'm not saying she has to settle down and raise a family but let the girl get some without her whole world (and sometimes THE world) crashing down around her.
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She's not done baking yet?

And technically the Angel thing worked out alright in the end(ish)...same for Spike. Longterm they worked out, but immediately they didn't. Hopefully season 8 will have her having a nice relationship that doesn't end in pointy objects.

Wait- sex with Riley didn't lead to badness!! That was what she loved about the relationship in the beginning. That when she woke up, he was still him and still beside her.

Of course it eventually lead to badness, but so did most if not all relationships on Buffy.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Her affair with Riley ended possibly the worst of all, with deciet him seeing vamp Ho's behind his back and her holding back full commitment from him.
I don't see it as being punished for having sex as much as natural consequences of bad decisions. Outside of Riley she didn't have a healthy relationship.
It might sound like lecturing, but most of the time its just reality that if you make the big decisions in life with no thought of the consequences, those consequences will come back and demand the attention anyway.
 
white avenger agrees: Her affair with Riley ended possibly the worst of all, with deciet him seeing vamp Ho's behind his back and her holding back full commitment from him.
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But that was a consequence of themselves and their relationship, not a consequence of the two of them sleeping together as it was for Buffy's other lovers.

(And personally I thought the whole turning evil, killing friends before she impaled him with a sword was slightly worse than what happened to Buffy and Riley, haha)
 
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