Discussion of 8.12 "Wolves at the Gate Part 1" - Released 03/05/07 (Dark Horse)

[Crazy Flakes]

To be honest, I didn't think Buffy/Satsu was just Buffy experimenting...I knew she was going to get into some awkward and/or new...erm...experience as soon as she said "great muppity Odin, I miss the sex" in season 1.

And the fact that she was going to sleep with someone she hadn't done it with before was sort of foreshadowed in The Long Way Home arc, when she had the dream where she was going to sleep with Xander.

To be honest, though, I don't think Batsu will be too much of an issue. I mean, it'll certainly make a few awkward situations, but I think it'll be more like her one night stand with Parker than anything...it'll seem weird, awkward, and even stupid at first, but it should blow over pretty quickly.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

For me the Tara and Willow romance seemed like a natual progression of their relationship, it made sense. Buffy and Satsu don't in my honest opinion. Sure they're were undertones with Faith but that was 5 years ago and with FAITH. This is Buffy and Satsu, up until this issue any feelings were one sided and not dealt with in any depth at all, and them bam! its pantypolooza! That's why I don't buy it, in every relationship in the Buffyverse we have been given signs, hints o honking sirens. I really don't feel we have been given that with Buffy and Satsu.

It's true we haven't seen everything that's been going on, and that's one of the problems I have with a monthly comic; the show ran in more-or-less real time - each episode was, generally, about a week in the Buffyverse. The comic is running differently - it's difficult to tell how much time elapses between issues, except that Issue 12 obviously doesn't occur the day following Issue 11. Buffy's known Satsu long enough that she's Buffy's "go-to girl"; Buffy considers Satsu her best fighter and a potential successor. But how long is that? And has it really been a month in the Buffyverse between Issues 11 & 12? That's plenty of time for lots of things to happen, but if we see everything, we'll never get the story finished. Willow & Tara's big honking siren happened the first time Tara ever appeared on the show. After that, Tara doesn't appear at all in "Doomed," has a brief scene in "A New Man," and then Willow spends the night in "The 'I' In Team." Now, there's some disagreement as to whether the two of them actually consummated their relationship then, or not until "New Moon Rising," but it was pretty obvious that they were a clandestine couple within three weeks of airtime.

 

[Kean]

It's true we haven't seen everything that's been going on, and that's one of the problems I have with a monthly comic; the show ran in more-or-less real time - each episode was, generally, about a week in the Buffyverse. The comic is running differently - it's difficult to tell how much time elapses between issues, except that Issue 12 obviously doesn't occur the day following Issue 11. Buffy's known Satsu long enough that she's Buffy's "go-to girl"; Buffy considers Satsu her best fighter and a potential successor. But how long is that? And has it really been a month in the Buffyverse between Issues 11 & 12? That's plenty of time for lots of things to happen, but if we see everything, we'll never get the story finished. Willow & Tara's big honking siren happened the first time Tara ever appeared on the show. After that, Tara doesn't appear at all in "Doomed," has a brief scene in "A New Man," and then Willow spends the night in "The 'I' In Team." Now, there's some disagreement as to whether the two of them actually consummated their relationship then, or not until "New Moon Rising," but it was pretty obvious that they were a clandestine couple within three weeks of airtime.

Maybe that poses the question of whether the comic is really working as well as we thought. Whedon said he is enjoying the comic because he is able to do things that never would have happened on the show i.e. Giant Dawn and Buffy and Satsu. Do either of these things really work? Of course Whedon should push the boundaries but I can't help but feel that if this is the continuation of the show things that never would have happened on air don't really have any business happening in comic book panels.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'm enjoying the comic, it's my own impatience that gets to me, but there are issues that are specific to this medium:

I like Jeanty's art, and I don't expect photo-realism (the art so far has been miles above most of what I was used to in the comics I grew up with,) but because the characters and the actors are so deeply connected for me, it's a little jarring sometimes when the characters look especially not-like the actors. Most of the time I'm okay with it, though (now that they've fixed Willow's eye color...)

A big plus is that the dialogue sounds like the characters; a big minus is that the dialogue isn't as layered as on the series. Can't be helped, though; it would be nearly impossible to replicate an episode exactly in comic form.

The time thing - this is probably the biggie. If you were to try replicating an episode, with every little nuance and detail, one issue would be six inches thick and cost a fortune. And, there's that once-a-month deal. So, by necessity, there are lots of stuff that simply can't be covered, or has to be covered in less detail - or, it may be filled in later; One of the first questions people started asking about Season 8 was: "How did they afford that BHC and all that high-tech equipment?" Well, now we know. We also know, though, that they're not exactly rolling in cash: Xander has only two of his commando outfits, Dawn sleeps in the barn (without, it seems, having had any remodeling done to it. Like an extension so her feet don't stick out,) and Xander mentions that they couldn't afford enough beer to get Dawn drunk if Buffy stole the Yankees. So, it looks like the money, beyond purchasing equipment, is pretty much going for necessities for the most part (Buffy does mention that the Slayers needed the party Xander set up. Wonder if it's their first?)


But, then, to a lesser extent, the show had to deal with that, as well; there were lots of things that had to be skipped in order to actually tell the story.

When's Willow's birthday? Or Xander's? We don't know, because it was never essential to the story. I've always assumed that Willow was a little younger than Xander, but I have no evidence for it.

What happened the night Willow stayed with Tara in "The 'I' In Team"? We don't really know, but we do know that Willow came home with the crystal that Tara had offered her earlier, and that Willow had refused, saying she "wouldn't feel right." Something obviously changed her mind.

We never really got much detail on Faith's background, either - is she younger than Buffy? Older? How many of her stories were just that? She hadn't been a Slayer all that long when she first appeared, only about five months; you wouldn't think she'd had time to get up to so much. (Speaking of foreshadowing, Kendra came out of nowhere, too; but her presence was explained.)

Eh, time to stop rambling for a while.

 

[TabulaRasa]

Does anyone else think Wolves At The Gate is the best title so far?

 

[white avenger]

I know that we belabored this point to death with Willow and Kennedy, but has Satsu's age been established? I know that Kennedy was supposed to be 19, but I was under the impression that most Potentials were at least a few years younger, especially since the Bringers had been killing off all of the ones old enough to have come to the Council's attention. My point, obviously: Is Buffy's new snuggle puppy jail bait?

 

[TabulaRasa]

You mean like Buffy was to Angel?

Anything is possible.

 

[Lyri]

what i'm worried about, is if Buffy brushes the incident of as an 'experiment' will this hurt Satsu's feelings? we know she's in love with Buffy, and she probably just had her biggest fantasy come true...what happens if or when Buffy tells her it was a one time thing? will she accept it? or will she fall off the deep end? this could be a set up for Satsu becoming the one who betrays them.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

what i'm worried about, is if Buffy brushes the incident of as an 'experiment' will this hurt Satsu's feelings? we know she's in love with Buffy, and she probably just had her biggest fantasy come true...what happens if or when Buffy tells her it was a one time thing? will she accept it? or will she fall off the deep end? this could be a set up for Satsu becoming the one who betrays them.

Well, I have a feeling Satsu knows it was at least a one-time deal, maybe an experiment. If I'm remembering correctly, she was the one who said "I know this doesn't mean you're a lesbian now," and even if she didn't, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to do it again after their awkward first time.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I know that we belabored this point to death with Willow and Kennedy, but has Satsu's age been established?

No, but she was apparently in school at the time of "Chosen", which means she could have been as much as 18 if she was a senior. Add a year and a half to 2 years - however much time has elapsed since then - and she could easily be 19 or 20.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Clearly, some people missed it.

Oh, gee, pardon me for getting so upset about this thing that I heartily disagree with being done to characters that I have had emotional investments in for the last ELEVEN YEARS that I missed one other POSSIBLE reason why this shouldn't be happening until someone else pointed it out. Bad me. I should be flogged.

It may just be the way I'm reading your words, since obviously I can't hear vocal tone, but I'm getting "You're an idiot" overtones to EVERYTHING you're saying. Just because I have a different opinion on this development than you do does NOT mean that my opinion is ANY LESS VALID than yours. I am not speaking to you as though you're slow because you disagree with me, PLEASE extend me the same courtesy.

 

[white avenger]

I just re-read the Buffy/Satsu sequence, and I'm not really sure from what Buffy is saying that she really wants it to be a one night stand as much as she just wants to be discreet about it. Inviting Satsu to spend the night doesn't strike me quite the same way as, "Isn't this where you kick me in the head and run away, virtue flying?" Plus, given the fact that since everybody in the castle either knows already or soon will know before the sun sets again (between Xander AND Andrew, the word is bound to slip out, and don't even dare to bring up Andrew knowing about Spike being back and keeping the secret. I have no doubt that he was calling Giles with the news before his plane took off).

Her affair with Spike was more than a one night stand, and it was kept secret, mainly because she knew that her friends would disapprove. Apparently, everybody likes Satsu, and who's gonna object to Buffy havin' somebody to snuggle with, even if they're of the same gendre? Certainly not Willow. Xander accepted it with Willow, I see no reason for him not to with Buffy. Andrew? No way. Giles isn't there, and apparently won't be any time soon.

 

[Clem Rocks]

I know that we belabored this point to death with Willow and Kennedy, but has Satsu's age been established? I know that Kennedy was supposed to be 19, but I was under the impression that most Potentials were at least a few years younger, especially since the Bringers had been killing off all of the ones old enough to have come to the Council's attention. My point, obviously: Is Buffy's new snuggle puppy jail bait?

considering they're in Scotland, they'd go by Scotland's age of consent, if it's the same as England's (someone comfirm it), Satsu would have to be about 14 during Chosen, and she looked older than that, so i'd say it's all legal

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Oh, gee, pardon me for getting so upset about this thing that I heartily disagree with being done to characters that I have had emotional investments in for the last ELEVEN YEARS that I missed one other POSSIBLE reason why this shouldn't be happening until someone else pointed it out. Bad me. I should be flogged.

It may just be the way I'm reading your words, since obviously I can't hear vocal tone, but I'm getting "You're an idiot" overtones to EVERYTHING you're saying.

Man, just take it however you want. Apparently, you will anyway, since the line you quoted there wasn't even in response to you - Keanoite said that people hadn't missed it, since it was being discussed in the forums, and I pointed out that someone just said they hadn't thought of that angle, so clearly some people had missed it. Look, here's the way it is: I post the way I talk; I'm not necessarily trying to be a smart-ass, but I'm getting pretty damn tired of people having a hissy-fit every time I disagree or contradict something they've said. Yeah, I often do sound sarcastic; sometimes I'm trying to make a point, other times it's just the way I talk and it comes off more blunt than I mean for it to. Deal with it. Or - here's a thought - how about just discuss the issues with me, because I prefer to do that.

I get not liking one plot-line or another, but having said that, I really don't get the level of near-hysteria this one has caused among some posters (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, and I shouldn't have to put that disclaimer in every frickin' time I post, either.) Emotional investment? Yeah, okay, this is the only show that's ever drawn me in enough to bother getting involved in any sort of fandom activities, on-line or otherwise, and the only one whose characters have drawn me in enough to care about them. So, don't give me emotional investment like you're the only one who cares about these characters. And I don't see this as damaging any of them - yet. We've known from the beginning that all of the characters had flaws and weaknesses, and by the end of Season Seven, they were all damaged goods and prone to making errors in judgment. That makes them a helluva lot more interesting to me than, say, the Big Blue Boyscout, who's Practically Perfect In Every Way. In fact, I rank these characters pretty darn near the top of my list of Favorite Fictional Characters Ever.

To the issues: I think this is an error in judgment on Buffy's part, too; not because sleeping with another woman was particularly a mistake, but sleeping with someone under her command is - no matter what it may be for them personally - a one-night stand, a short-term relationship, a life-changing experience, or the worst mistake either of them ever made - it's going to lead to problems in her command. Both of them are embarrassed, both of them are hurt, and obviously so are Willow and Xander to some degree. And this time there are too many people involved for them to just bottle things up - they're going to have to deal somehow.

And I think it's gonna be a great ride. YMMV. Hell, MMMV by the time we get to the end - but I haven't been disappointed by any of the previous seven seasons so far, even when there were turns in the story that I might have done some other way.

Now - can we just discuss, without all the knicker-twisting? I don't even mind if we argue, bicker, and quibble, but this is all the time I'm going to spare on the drama.

Edit:

I just re-read the Buffy/Satsu sequence, and I'm not really sure from what Buffy is saying that she really wants it to be a one night stand as much as she just wants to be discreet about it.

That's pretty much the way I read it - Buffy's unsure herself right now and wants time to work it out. Man, the bedroom invasion sequence was funny as hell, but I feel really bad for Satsu and Buffy. Talk about a rude awakening (so to speak, since they were already awake...)

 

[Blondie Bear]

Hence why I gave you the benefit of the doubt that this was potentially NOT how you meant for this to come across. However, with statements like "Oh, jeez . . ." and "Clearly, some people missed it," I don't think I'm out of line for being offended. Despite how disgusted I might be with someone else's opinion, I don't run around going, "Oh, please" or any similar snarky remarks because I believe they have a right to their opinion and I don't have a right to treat them like an idiot for having it. I am very careful to phrase my remarks exactly the way I mean them, with as much or as little footnoting as necessary to make sure it's obvious how I mean for someone to read what I'm saying. I believe that this habit helps keep people from freaking out and having a hissy over something that I didn't mean the way they read it.

Obviously you're emotionally invested in these characters as well. Why else would you be here? But, again, I heard your tone as saying "This person here who missed this detail is obviously a moron." And it set me off because I've been upset about this whole thing since I read it last night. Maybe I overreacted. But I also feel that it's important to be in strict control of your tone and wording in this text-only environment so that such overreactions are less likely to happen.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Hence why I gave you the benefit of the doubt that this was potentially NOT how you meant for this to come across. However, with statements like "Oh, jeez . . ."

Do you have any idea how many times I've heard "If they do 'fitb', I'm going to stop watching/reading/etc" over the last few years? It's one of those things that doesn't give any room for someone to respond. What can you say to that, besides, "Oh, jeez . . ."? Maybe, "We'll miss you?"

and "Clearly, some people missed it," I don't think I'm out of line for being offended.

Again, that was in response to the statement that people hadn't missed it, because it was being discussed. Well, obviously some people had missed that angle - you even said you did. How am I out of line for pointing that out?

Despite how disgusted I might be with someone else's opinion, I don't run around going, "Oh, please" or any similar snarky remarks because I believe they have a right to their opinion and I don't have a right to treat them like an idiot for having it. I am very careful to phrase my remarks exactly the way I mean them, with as much or as little footnoting as necessary to make sure it's obvious how I mean for someone to read what I'm saying. I believe that this habit helps keep people from freaking out and having a hissy over something that I didn't mean the way they read it.

Obviously you're emotionally invested in these characters as well. Why else would you be here? But, again, I heard your tone as saying "This person here who missed this detail is obviously a moron." And it set me off because I've been upset about this whole thing since I read it last night. Maybe I overreacted. But I also feel that it's important to be in strict control of your tone and wording in this text-only environment so that such overreactions are less likely to happen.

It's also, IMO, important to read through other peoples' posts and those leading up to them. I misread intent, too - I did with one of Keanoite's posts earlier. It happens, as you point out, in this text-only environment. Two or three years ago, I was able to spend lots of time composing posts, but I've already spent more time on this one thread than I usually have to spend in a whole day these days.

 

[alexa]

So I just got this and I have never laughed so much in a comic before. People were looking at me like I was strange. But I generally really enjoyed this issue, although it did seem short.

I think I've already been through the emotional shock stages of seeing Buffy sleep with a girl, so it didn't really bother me.. well it does a little, but almost as much as Xander saying '..Master' at the end of the book. I thought he wouldn't be so weak minded by now 🙁

Feel bad for Satsu a little, being blown off. Wouldn't Buffy let her know before that this didn't mean what she wanted it to, plus Buffy was kinda vague afterwards.. like it didn't mean something, but you can stay? wtf?

Willow seemed kinda jealous.. hard to tell with the amount of panels though. I'm guessing a bit of it is jealousy but I feel a bit like Willow atm. We've been away for a while and suddenly Buffy is robbing banks and sleeping with girls?

Xander and Renee are cute I guess.. but bloody hell, why are they so scared of making him the main love interest for Buffy?

 

[nerd4hire]

Willow seemed kinda jealous.. hard to tell with the amount of panels though. I'm guessing a bit of it is jealousy but I feel a bit like Willow atm. We've been away for a while and suddenly Buffy is robbing banks and sleeping with girls?

I'm suspecting Willow's feelings about this are many factored, and complicated, but yeah, I bet that's a big one. The whole "Huh? Something's just not right here." response.

 

[white avenger]

I know that the entire incident (all of the people busting in, not the Satsu/Buffy interlude) was pretty much if not entirely for its comedic affect AND to sort of make discertion a moot point, but since when does Xander enter Buffy's room without being invited, emergency or not, and at that moment, the wolves were more a curiosity, not a crisis. I can see Willow's entrance, and Dawn's, but Xander, Renee, and Andrew definitely had no business in there without permission.

 

[Kean]

I don't think people are upset that it was a girl, I think it's because she really shouldn't be having sex with THAT girl. Whedon has said that Buffy is not gay, she is just just experimenting, so that would lead me to believe that this is only a one shot deal and that Satsu has just added herself to the long list of people who have loved and lost Buffy.