Discussion of 8.33 "Twilight Part 2" - Released 3/04/10 (Dark Horse)

[Krj2501]

Thanks Kean ... I found that to be incredibly insightful. It also goes with what I've been feeling about Season 8 so far - which is that things aren't always so Black & White, or so easy to tell Good from Evil.

That said - I still it's think is going to be either Giles or Willow that ends up betraying Buffy.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Thank you so much for the detailed synopsis, Kean. It still all makes me sick to my stomach and rabid at Joss, but I have renewed faith that Buffy may indeed be redeemable. Kissing Angel is sick, stupid, and wrong - but not character assassinating. 😛

Still not with Angel, though, I still very much hope for some stake big enough to impale him on. He continues to come across as the jerk (to put it very mildly) I saw in him with this story now that I know the details.


Oh, and one thing with your analysis:

Meanwhile Giles has just realised who Twilight is.

Th-that voice...I know that voice.

Twilight’s reply is one of the most interesting of the entire issue.

Of course you do Giles...That's what happens when you get rid of your resident witch...People start to see the truth.

I found this incredibly cryptic but an obvious reference to Willow. We have been shown throughout the entire season that Willow has been keeping secrets. Whatever "truths" she has been concealing appear to be quite significant.

You sure this is meant to refer to Willow? I'm definitely thinking of Amy with the "resident witch" part. She is/was working for Twilight, right?

 

[white avenger]

I'm trying very hard to NOT sound like the adamant Spuffy that I am here when I say that there is something very wrong going on here that we have not seen yet. That whole Angel/Buffy conversation just sounds too much like some kind of hypnosis or thrall. Add to that, this cover art:

http://www.whedon.info/IMG/jpg/buffy-season-8-comic-book-tpb-7-cover-mq-01.jpg

which shows a clearly enthralled (and not in a good way) Buffy, with a very sinister Angel holding an extremely lethal stake against her chest. All of that leads me to believe that the person Miss K described as the love of Buffy's life is no longer one of the good guys. Amazing as it might seem, I am still hoping that the REAL Angel will show up in the nick of time to expose and help defeat the imposter, because, otherwise, Joss has effectively destroyed one of his greatest champions.

And, incidentally, great synopsis, Miss K.

 

[Krj2501]

Personally - I think that both Buffy & Angel are redeemable.

And I'm thinking that it's actually Willow - who ultimately one who's ultimately unredeemable. After all we know that she going to go dark again & ends up being killed by Buffy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm trying very hard to NOT sound like the adamant Spuffy that I am here when I say that there is something very wrong going on here that we have not seen yet. That whole Angel/Buffy conversation just sounds too much like some kind of hypnosis or thrall. Add to that, this cover art:

http://www.whedon.info/IMG/jpg/buffy-season-8-comic-book-tpb-7-cover-mq-01.jpg

Well, I'm sure this insanity that is happening in Season 8 has NOTHING to do with Spuffy and I'm sure I don't want it too. I don't want Angel anywhere near Spike and Buffy. We now know that Spike is surely going to make an appearance...and I'm honestly not happy about it (I can't believe I just said that). We'll get our reunion, but I promise it won't be a romantic one. Allie said he'll treat Spuffy "with respect" which to me, sounds like an all we're probably going to get is an acknowledgment of the relationships prior existence (basically, fan-service) or maybe if we're lucky, a flashback. No cover, though.

It's always been Angel. Buffy never be happy with anyone else, according to him, and they're fated...

so, yeah. What's to even say? It's BS, but it's canon. No denying it.

We know that Joss isn't mocking Bangel, so all we can assess from this situation is that they're the end result. The last call. The final bang. The couple that will win out in the end. It's them. It's always been about them.

Spuffy doesn't stand a chance.

And you know what? I don't care.

*digresses*

(I'll always love Spuffy. They're always be MY ship. Forever. Always. No canonical Bangel-love could ruin that. For me, it was never about who Buffy ended up with in the "end." It was about the journey to the "end." I only hope that if Buffy goes down fighting, Spike is by her side.)

At this point, shipping isn't even an issue. We should be more worried about the possible assassination of these characters, not the ones they love.

which shows a clearly enthralled (and not in a good way) Buffy, with a very sinister Angel holding an extremely lethal stake against her chest. All of that leads me to believe that the person Miss K described as the love of Buffy's life is no longer one of the good guys. Amazing as it might seem, I am still hoping that the REAL Angel will show up in the nick of time to expose and help defeat the imposter, because, otherwise, Joss has effectively destroyed one of his greatest champions.

See? Now you know what we're been freaking out about. I'm glad to see you jumping on the "it's-possible-that-Angel-might-not-be-redeemable" band wagen. Some fans have accused me and others of being melodramatic, but I disagree. I WILL wait until the end before I denounce Angel as a Champion - when all is said and done I will make my decision then. BUT, as it looks now, things are not looking good, I agree.

I'm not as attached to Angel as I am to Buffy or Spike. But, if Twilight had been Spike...I'd be devastated, to say the least.

I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong but I can absolutely understand where the characters are coming from.

Kean, I can see where Buffy is coming from, but not Angel.

I can NOT reconcile his actions with what we know at this point.

Yes, Buffy loves him. She always has. She's flawed, weak. Like we all are. I do not blame Buffy for kissing him. She's not perfect. Buffy is absolutely redeemable at this point, agreed.

*knocks on wood*

Considering she doesn't do anything awful, that is.

Angel, though? How can you say you can understand where Angel's "coming from"? I don't think any of us at this point, know where he's "coming from." We'll have to wait that out.

(19 days to go...)

 

[Kean]

Kean, I can see where Buffy is coming from, but not Angel.

I can NOT reconcile his actions with what we know at this point.

Yes, Buffy loves him. She always has. She's flawed, weak. Like we all are. I do not blame Buffy for kissing him. She's not perfect. Buffy is absolutely redeemable at this point, agreed.

*knocks on wood*

Considering she doesn't do anything awful, that is.

Angel, though? How can you say you can understand where Angel's "coming from"? I don't think any of us at this point, know where he's "coming from." We'll have to wait that out.

(19 days to go...)

Sorry, I meant to say Buffy there, not characters. My stance on Angel us alot muggier. But I stand by what I said at the end:

There are ALOT of her actions that could be mirrored with those of Twilights, what endears her to us is that we have been privy to her motivation. I think we should all keep our slayers' cool until we are privy to Angel's motivation.

I personbally feel that Buffy has done some awful things this issue. Either through her own actions or inactions. Alot of people have brought up Twilight watching as the soldiers he sent out died, letting slayers die. Well Buffy has done the same, she sent out pretty much defenseless girls and in the Frayverse she refused to help the people who were being attacked by the lurks because "there was a bigger picture". Twilight operated on a much bigger scale and so has a much bigger body count but he and Buffy have made identical decisions.

Ok, I know this isn't exactly comforting but I actually do take hope from it because I truly don't believe Joss would destroy Buffy (I don't think he would do that to Angel either but moreso Buffy). Having them in what is pretty much the exact same position makes me feel better that, as individual characters, they will be ok.

So, I can't say I understand Angel BUT, I am absolutely willing to hear him out.

Also, on my LJ a girl on my flist made a very good point. Giles thought Gigi was The Girl that Buffy turned out to be. It seems that Giles believe this power to be too much for a person and it literally turns you insane. While I don't think Buffy is there yet, Angel is certainly not quite himself. The evry fact that he is talking about happiness as a solution tells you that. He knows that doing what you want does NOT save the day.

 

[Tranquillity]

I can see where Buffy is coming from, but not Angel.

I can NOT reconcile his actions with what we know at this point.

I am finding this difficult too. Apart from Twilight's actions, I just can't get over the mask and costume. It is just so un-Angel-like that he would think that this is a viable course of action. At the moment it stinks too much of narrative convienience. I need to know more about the mask, the Twilight persona and how he came to be wearing it and being Twilight other than it being a 'distraction' or 'to push' Buffy into becoming. I just need to know more. I wish they'd given us a double issue last month. The waiting is really tough

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

With all the talks of the 'ships, after all of these years, I'm starting to think Buffy's just best off completely alone in the romantic regard.

Angel is by far the happiest (of his own volition) in Tomorrow when he and Cordy are about to get together.

Spike is by far the most heroic (of his own volition) in After the Fall with Spider & Illyria by his side.

Now I love Buffy, and she got those two guys to that place of maturity and heroicism, and it kills me since I loved Bangel & Spuffy, but prior to Season Eight, they each seem happier on their own two feet...

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Scott Allie hinted very strongly in a couple of Q&A's that Twilight is a "what" rather than a "who." It's not just an alias Angel took to hunt Slayers. It's some sort of force that Angel has gotten caught up in... maybe voluntarily, maybe not, maybe a bit of both.

It would be highly out of character for the Angel we knew for 8 season plus AtF to just decide, "The ends justifies the means, and I'm gonna put on a mask and kill a bunch of brave, heroic young girls to save the world. I'm not going to tell Buffy, and I'm going to feel really good about things."

I don't think it's as simple as Angel being possessed or controlled, or Buffy either, but I think both of them are dancing to Twilight's tune right now rather than their own.

I believe that, left 100% to his own devices, Angel would have followed a course of action different than the one he did here. And left 100% to her own devices, Buffy would not be swapping spit with a man who's just killed 200 of her friends and given her a "sorry, couldn't be helped... greater good and all that" excuse. That kind of thing might turn Drusilla on, but not Buffy.

And whether one is a Bangel, an anti-Bangel, or neutral (like me), that whole business with glowy magic and tearful gazes and "don't you want to be happy?" strikes me as far more Stephanie Meyer than Joss Whedon.

For fans (and for Bangels especially), the biggest worries should be these:

After years of choosing to put her mission ahead of her own happiness, is Angel the one to finally make her change her mind and betray her friends, her mission, her ideals, 200 dead Slayers and hundreds more living ones, so she can get groiny with him and "be happy?"

And is the grand, epic love between Buffy and Angel really just a product of magical programming? Have they just been "Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered" all this time?

Some say we should trust Joss and that it will all be OK in the end. I do trust Joss to make the story make sense, but I also know him well enough to know that it will not all be OK in the end.

For me, it's just a matter of whether or not this will be a story I'm going to enjoy hearing. Will I get to the end of season 8, five years and thousands of posts later, and realize that I wish I'd never read it?

I hope not.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

For fans (and for Bangels especially), the biggest worries should be these:

After years of choosing to put her mission ahead of her own happiness, is Angel the one to finally make her change her mind and betray her friends, her mission, her ideals, 200 dead Slayers and hundreds more living ones, so she can get groiny with him and "be happy?"

And is the grand, epic love between Buffy and Angel really just a product of magical programming? Have they just been "Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered" all this time?

Some say we should trust Joss and that it will all be OK in the end. I do trust Joss to make the story make sense, but I also know him well enough to know that it will not all be OK in the end.

For me, it's just a matter of whether or not this will be a story I'm going to enjoy hearing. Will I get to the end of season 8, five years and thousands of posts later, and realize that I wish I'd never read it?

I hope not.

I agree completely that these are the issues we have to face at this point.

Does love conquer all? Perhaps this is what Joss is trying to get at with his story. Is it heroic to give up everything for love? Personally, I think no. It's weak and selfish. If Buffy IS willing to throw out the window everything she is, everything she stands for, and everyone she loves for love, then, well...that'd be going against everything we love about her, I believe.

Buffy is a hero, a leader. She has a role whether or not she likes it or not. She has always been able to make the difficult decisions and to see the bigger picture. Angel clouds her judgment - more so now then ever.

...Maybe Joss thinks that it's time for Buffy to start thinking of herself and not the people she has sworn to protect and the friends who trust her. *shrugs* Maybe Buffy truly is deluded enough to believe that Angel and her are fated, and that she can't be happy with anyone else.

 

[Krj2501]

As a Bangel - I'm not worried about their love being simply the the result of some mystical programming or grand love spell.

However - that's not to say that there maybe some kind of mystical connection that is influencing or enhancing their natural connection (as Soulmates). Which I believe may be very real possibility.

And yes - it's true that Joss almost never allows a happy ending(at least so far) for any couple goes. So that should be a really big concern.

 

[white avenger]

I personbally feel that Buffy has done some awful things this issue. Either through her own actions or inactions. Alot of people have brought up Twilight watching as the soldiers he sent out died, letting slayers die. Well Buffy has done the same, she sent out pretty much defenseless girls

.

I can agree with quite a bit that you say here, but as for Buffy "sending out pretty much defenseless girls" to their deaths, I have to point out that she and her people ware defending themselves from imminent attack by Twilight's army. Maybe their strike was preemptive, but it was nonetheless justifiable, at least as justifiable as taking a couple of dozen inexperienced girls, Slayers or not, down into the hellmouth, poorly armed, to face what should have been an overwhelming army of ubervamps. In both cases, she was facing a superior force, not because she wanted the glory of winning, but because she was, quite literally fighting for her survival AND the survival of those girls. They had no place to run. Standing and fighting was her only option.

Twilight, however, has waged systematic warfare against the Slayers and their allies from the very beginning, initiating the attack at every opportunity. He, or it, is directly responsible for every death and injury on both sides.

Certainly, Buffy has done some bad things in this season, but they fade into obscurity when compared to the death, pain, and destruction that her enemies are responsible for under Twilight's command. I'm willing to wait and see if Angel is, himself, under the control of a much more powerful being, as yet unknown. If so, I can willingly accept that he is no more actually responsible for what has happened this season than Spike was responsible for the murders that he committed while under the influence of the First Evil. But if Angel is consciously and willingly responsible for his actions in this season, then, for me at least, there can never be any redemption for him.

 

[Kean]

I can agree with quite a bit that you say here, but as for Buffy "sending out pretty much defenseless girls" to their deaths, I have to point out that she and her people ware defending themselves from imminent attack by Twilight's army. Maybe their strike was preemptive, but it was nonetheless justifiable, at least as justifiable as taking a couple of dozen inexperienced girls, Slayers or not, down into the hellmouth, poorly armed, to face what should have been an overwhelming army of ubervamps. In both cases, she was facing a superior force, not because she wanted the glory of winning, but because she was, quite literally fighting for her survival AND the survival of those girls. They had no place to run. Standing and fighting was her only option.

Twilight, however, has waged systematic warfare against the Slayers and their allies from the very beginning, initiating the attack at every opportunity. He, or it, is directly responsible for every death and injury on both sides.

Certainly, Buffy has done some bad things in this season, but they fade into obscurity when compared to the death, pain, and destruction that her enemies are responsible for under Twilight's command. I'm willing to wait and see if Angel is, himself, under the control of a much more powerful being, as yet unknown. If so, I can willingly accept that he is no more actually responsible for what has happened this season than Spike was responsible for the murders that he committed while under the influence of the First Evil. But if Angel is consciously and willingly responsible for his actions in this season, then, for me at least, there can never be any redemption for him.

I know where you coming from but I still can't shake the feeling that Buffy has ALOT to answer for this season. Maybe that will change when we find out what has really been going on but right now, I feel she has blood on her hands and that that is going to be very important to what happens.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I agree that Buffy has done some morally questionable things this season (and before), but I don't really see blood on her hands.

The Slayers might not have been given a choice as to whether they wanted the power or not, but in every case, it was their decision to join Buffy's army. Fewer than one-third of them made that choice. Some of the others chose the risk of "freelance" slaying, for better or worse (like Soledad in "Harmonic Divergence" or Alex in "The Thrill"), but most are probably just sitting at home trying not to be noticed, safe... at least until Twilight's minions hunt them down and murder them eventually.

Look at it this way: if a woman is robbed and murdered by a thief who's after her diamond engagement ring, does her fiance have blood on his hands for giving her the ring?

Every bit of killing Buffy and her Slayers have done this season has been in self-defense. Slayers are forbidden to hunt and kill humans, because that's supposed to be the job of the human authorities. But the right to self-defense is universal, and in this case the human villains *are* the authorities.

Buffy took her army to the remotest place on earth and had them voluntarily lay down their powers, but that still wasn't good enough for Twilight... he chased them there with an army, tanks, and fighter planes.

Some of the things Angel says to Buffy in this issue are nonsense, and he'd know it if he was thinking clearly. "You fundamentally shifted the balance of power in this world." Maybe so, but what of it? In what reality is ONE girl against countless thousands of demons a fair balance of power? "Sorry, folks... I know your town has a high crime rate, but you're only allowed one police officer. Any more would be unfair to the hundreds of criminals. Oh, and your one cop can't carry a gun."

Angel may know some things that Buffy and her friends don't know about what's going on... but he talks here as if he has the whole big picture, and I'm sure that's not the case.

Whatever the source of this "glow" is, I'm fairly certain it's going to turn out to be the true "big bad" this season... to the point where Buffy has to bring about the banishment of *all* magic from this world in order to save it.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Whatever the source of this "glow" is, I'm fairly certain it's going to turn out to be the true "big bad" this season... to the point where Buffy has to bring about the banishment of *all* magic from this world in order to save it.

The glow thingy is pretty interesting and its not the first time its mentioned in the buffyverse. Im watching Season 7 right now and in same time same place in the basement Spike said Buffy is glowing but nobody can see it except him. It makes no sense in season 7 but now its mentioned in season 8 again. There is no reason for Spike calling Buffy glowing or did i missed something?

I thought maybe this could be another hint with the glow thing or maybe not. Im really confused about season 8 and the direction its headed.

Spike was still in the basement at this point and nearly insane but the first was there too.

Just my thoughts.

Sorry for my english but i´m just a german. 🙂

 

[Spike Angelus]

The glow thingy is pretty interesting and its not the first time its mentioned in the buffyverse. Im watching Season 7 right now and in same time same place in the basement Spike said Buffy is glowing but nobody can see it except him. It makes no sense in season 7 but now its mentioned in season 8 again. There is no reason for Spike calling Buffy glowing or did i missed something?

I thought maybe this could be another hint with the glow thing or maybe not. Im really confused about season 8 and the direction its headed.

Spike was still in the basement at this point and nearly insane but the first was there too.

Just my thoughts.

Sorry for my english but i´m just a german. 🙂

I wonder if Joss is tying it into that line of Spike's.

 

[Tranquillity]

Well, back then, I suppose, becuse Spike is crazy and keeps saying things about the past, we all thought it was a reference to his poem in Fool for Love - you, know when he says "what's another word for glowing, it's got to rhyme." And of course, he comes up with the word effulgent. . . So that would be so cool of they were making a connection to the show in this way. Not that I wish to imply that 'glowing' is in any way cool 😉

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Well, back then, I suppose, becuse Spike is crazy and keeps saying things about the past, we all thought it was a reference to his poem in Fool for Love - you, know when he says "what's another word for glowing, it's got to rhyme." And of course, he comes up with the word effulgent. . . So that would be so cool of they were making a connection to the show in this way.

Damn your right i always forget his poems.

I´m so confused. So back to square one.

I dont like it but i can see a pregnant Buffy in season 9. I hope im wrong about that.

But it looks like they are sleeping together in issue 34 so its possible. Buffy must have lost his mind throuigh a spell or something. Her free will gets right out of the window when Twilight starts his monologue. I regret reading the whole twilight issue.

Its a long shot but what you think about Jasmine from the Angel series? Cordy was glowing when she gave birth to her. She was also glowing when she used her power once when she was a higher beeing.

Worst case scenario: Buffy and Angel become gods and act as the big bad and Xander is the only one who can stop them.
Best case scenario: Spike arrives and beats the crap out of Angel so Buffy can think clearly and together they fight against Twilight.
Spuffy scenario: Spike kills Twilight. Turns back the time and fights from now on at Buffys side. Come on Joss. Buffy deserves some happines in her life. They are the perfect couple. Period!

 

[Tome]

But it looks like they are sleeping together in issue 34

Why do I keep reading this? Where is everybody hearing about them sleeping together? Did I miss something?

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Why do I keep reading this? Where is everybody hearing about them sleeping together? Did I miss something?

Willow says they are ****ing and the title at the end for the next issue is THEM ****ING so its obvious for me. 🙂

I still have hopes for an intervention before they actually really do it but i dont think Joss would do that. It looks like fan service to me.

I´m just curious what happens next but its not really bothering me at all. Buffy and Spike will always be my perfect couple. Even Joss cant change that. 🙂