Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)

[AndrewCrossett]

I think that while the other AtS characters may put in an appearance, Angel's story in season 9 will not be primarily about him with them. Of them all, I think Connor might be the only one with main character potential.

I'll bet that the IDW series will leave all those characters neat and tidy and lined up on the shelf for Joss to do with whatever he wants.

 

[VisionGirl]

I hate to sound like whinging White Avenger on the non-reaction of Spike.. but I think I kinda would like to see Buffys reaction upon seeing Connor for the first time. If indeed they have free reign, I think thats kinda a must. Connor needs to flirt with Buffy as well.

Comments on this post
white avenger agrees: Angel will probably beat her to it. He's already lost one girl friend to "Young and Hormone-Filled." I doubt that he's going to let the boy try that again.

I do agree that he would try to hit on Buffy, but I don't agree that it will work. The only way Connor could get in Cordelia's pants was if she was possessed by an evil ex-Power that Be- oh yeah, that's exactly what happened!

I also agree that if Angel is going to try to rectify his season 8 wrongs, it has to include members of AI. The Scoobies aren't going to care about his redemption, AI will. Of course, whatever's left of AI that is.

 

[white avenger]

I also agree that if Angel is going to try to rectify his season 8 wrongs, it has to include members of AI. The Scoobies aren't going to care about his redemption, AI will. Of course, whatever's left of AI that is.

Well, there's Gunn, Connor, Illyria, and possibly Kate and Nina, unless one or more of them get killed or otherwise written off in the next couple of issues over at IDW . If Spike either joins Buffy's team (which I seem to remember reading somewhere, but I can't recall where at the moment) or has his own title or mini-series, that leaves Angel with 5 people on his team, given, of course, that they all stay with him, but for some reason, I have been assuming that Illyria will go wherever her "pet," Spike, goes. That still leaves him with a pretty good team: a superhuman son who can head up the day ops, a street wise demon fighter who is also a top notch lawyer, an ex-cop with a small arsenal and no doubt contacts in the law enforcement community, and a sweet cuddly werewolf lady to snuggle with between missions. Not a bad team, really.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I've read it.

Quick overview -

Big fight - Slayers getting chopped in half. Willow chants over the seed. Buffy and Angel fight; they seem quite evenly matched. Spike attacks Angel. Angel takes Spike up into the sunlight and tries to kill him. Buffy flies up and knocks them apart. Spike's ship flies forward to catch their smoking captain. Angel throws a misile to the ground killing a lot of people (army and slayers mostly).

Angel and Buffy continue to fight. Buffy gets slammed into the ground. Xander sees what is happening and realises "We're not going to win this"

Andrew teams up with the earth-bound demons against the invading demons. Buffy and Angel continue to fight. Andrew sees a big dragon-type demon approaching and warns the slayers to get out of the way but he only succeeds in rescuing the red-head scottish slayer (Leah?) while the rest get incinerated by the dragon's fire breath.

Willow is really powering up on the seed. She glows red then transfigures out to where the fight is happeneing. She causes a huge tree to grow up out of the ground, spearing the dragon. Trees sprout up everywhere and Willow uses her magic against the demons making them explode - she's cross because they didn't just attack "little things that crawl on the outside of the earth...[they] attacked Mother."

Willow then begins to fight a big floating demon that looks a bit like female genitalia (i'm sure this is supposed to be symbolic) Angel says, to Buffy "You're friend thinks she can win this fight. She's missing the point" then kicks her down. Buffy flies back up but is more concerned where Giles is.

Giles watches from a distance then goes to get the scythe off Faith. He tells Faith to lead the girls but that he needs the scythe for Buffy. She hands it over. Giles runs off with it and Faith is attacked by an electric demon (what is this, pokemon?) who causes Faith's troop of slayers (and soldiers) to literally melt. Yup, that's another big group of slayers dead.

Amy and Warren are lunching in Rome. Amy wonders if they should have stayed to see how it ends. Warren thinks not.

Xander goes into the seed cave. Willow says magic spells over the vagina demon. Kennedy and Andrew watch from below and Andrew observes that the demons are winning.

Buffy and Angel are still fighting. They crash through to the chamber of the seed. Angel says "you created a world. you can't turn away from it. You were Chosen Buffy." The Master Says "That's original." Angel punches his fist clear through the Master's skull. He turns to dust.

Giles arrives and finds Xander watching the action from behind a wall. Giles asks what he is doing there. Xander implies that he was going to try and do something (what, I don't think even he is sure). Giles says there is nothing they can do, "Their power fades in proximity to the seed...but the seed fuels the scythe..."
"So throw it to her!" says Xander
Giles replies "Xander, I's Angel. At the very least she...she'll hesitate. She wants to stop him...not kill him."
and then Giles takes the scythe into the seed chamber. Xander tries to stop him but Giles can't be dissuaded.

Giles steps inbetwwen Buffy and Angel and Angel rushes forward, says, "You abandoned me for this?!" then snaps Giles neck in classic vampire fashion - quick and brutal (and just like he killed Jenny calendar). Angel stands over his body and says "When they're all gone you'll understand."

Buffy is shocked (and I mean shocked) as is Xander. Buffy knocks Angel down with a huge BAM, grabs the scythe and thinks 'No More' and smashes the seed.

Breaking the seed causes a great flash of light that shocks Buffy and Angel and causes Willow to grab her head and fall to earth. The remaining Slayers look on in shock. Amy and Warren feel it too. Acctually, Warren more than feels it - he disolves into an squishy mess.

Willow is traumatised. She cries out "No! Goddess?! What... Where!?" while all the non-earth bound demons are sucked back into the portals through which they came. The New York wiccas lose connection with sunnydale - I think they might have lost their magic. Kennedy runs to Willow who is still desperately calling for Aluwyn. Kitty Twilight is seen walking away (i'm not sure if this is on earth or in 'Twilight' dimension).

Spike order's his ship be put into reverse to avoid being sucked into "hell" with the retreating demons.
Bug one says, "Your friends, your majesty, they did-"
Spike cuts him off, "She. She did it. Slayer, you did it." He is about to land and see who need help when he spies Willow's vagina demon fleeing the scene so he decides he better stop that first and flies off after it.

On the ground, Willow is inconsolable. She says they lost and that this is the end. in the chamber of the seed Buffy is prostrate on the ground, crying and gripping her stomach (just like we saw in Anywhere but Here). Giles is dead beside her. Angel steps forward - I think he touches Xander but Xander shrugs him off and goes to check on Buffy. The Slayer Scythe is broken in the foreground.

End.

Next: Coda...

How does Joss Whedon come up with such a storyline? I'm not just speaking of what happened in this issue, but for the entire Season 8. It's like he has either channeled James Ellroy or was on crack, while coming up with the overall story. One of the things I dislike about the comic book version of BUFFY, is that I find it a little too over-the-top for my tastes.


As for Angel's "redemption", it doesn't exist for me. The soul he possesses has been forced upon him on three separate occasions. Which is why I have never been that impressed by his role as a "hero" or "champion".

 

[AndrewCrossett]

TFAW just released an interview they did with Scott Allie where he clarifies a few things:

1. Giles was trying to destroy the Seed with the Scythe, not kill Angel. He was not thinking of it as a suicide mission.

2. Destroying the Seed doesn't destroy all magic in this world per se, but it cuts us off from all other realms, and a lot of our magic comes from there, including that which the witches are using. It seems that only those demons who were here because of Twilight got sucked back, because their portals reversed... those demons who were already here (like Lorne) would stay, and never be able to get home.

3. Slayers will keep their Slayer powers, and vampires will remain vampires. (But Buffy loses her Twilight superpowers, of course).

4. Dawn survives... she didn't disappear with the magic.

5. Willow didn't go insane, but she's in a very, very bad state.

6. Issue #40 will be mostly about Buffy. She will be in San Francisco (with Willow and Kennedy, maybe?) and interacting with several of the characters. Spike will have a scene in it.

So the situation seems to be: no more new Slayers being called; no new vampires being created; no more portals, magic spells, or communication with either Hell or the Powers That Be. (Scott didn't mention the Powers, but he said we're cut off from all outside realms.)

We can also assume this means the end of Wolfram & Hart in this dimension... and the last we'll ever see of Wesley, or Cordelia.

 

[Spikefan31]

(But Buffy loses her Twilight superpowers, of course).

Yay! Thank goodness.

We can also assume this means the end of Wolfram & Hart in this dimension... and the last we'll ever see of Wesley, or Cordelia.

Last we'll see of Wesley? Nooooooooooooooooo! *sobs*

6. Issue #40 will be mostly about Buffy. She will be in San Francisco (with Willow and Kennedy, maybe?) and interacting with several of the characters. Spike will have a scene in it.

Sounds interesting. And yay for a Spike scene.

So the situation seems to be: no more new Slayers being called; no new vampires being created; no more portals, magic spells, or communication with either Hell or the Powers That Be. (Scott didn't mention the Powers, but he said we're cut off from all outside realms.)

I get the no more new Slayers (kind of), but why no new vampires?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I get the no more new Slayers (kind of), but why no new vampires?

Because creating a vampire involves removing the soul of the person and replacing it with a demon... and we can't get any more demons.

This raises the interesting question... what happens now with the souls of people who die? Can anyone go to Heaven or Hell now?

 

[Spikefan31]

Because creating a vampire involves removing the soul of the person and replacing it with a demon... and we can't get any more demons.

Oh. I just assumed the demon came from the vampire who sired them, not from another dimension. Interesting...

 

[zobothehobo]

Oh. I just assumed the demon came from the vampire who sired them, not from another dimension. Interesting...

I thought it came from the vampire who sired them too... I mean, the demon comes from the demon blood (in the sire) mixing with the human blood (in the new vampire). Right?

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

Spikefan31 agrees: That's what I thought. It's all about the blood.

I feel like quoting Spike now.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, we know vampires die out until Fray's time, along with Slayers, so it looks like the vampire/demons come from elsewhere. If not the world would be doomed, because vampires would continue to spawn but no new Slayers would be called, and when the current Slayers die out the vampires would run free.

Kean agrees: Do you have a link to the interview?

I had to hunt it down, since I saw it originally on another Buffy board. Here are the links to the three parts (about 20 minutes in total):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wgYCoGuxOA"]Part One[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvbxI_mTDPI"]Part Two[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma1chHg3bBE"]Part Three[/ame]

 

[Tome]

I'm surprised no one mentioned how ironic it is that Giles got killed the same way that Jenny was killed... And by Angel too, even!

 

[VisionGirl]

OK, I haven't watched that interview yet, but I seriously am not getting this death of magic thing & other dimensions. It seems like a lot of ret-conning & inconsistency (nothing new I guess!). Why do the witches' magic come from another dimension? Who ever said that? And I agree with others who are questioning the vampire siring thing. Either the Seed is the source of all magic or its not!

Honestly I'm kind of surprised at people mourning no Cordy or Wes. A lot of people complain about that aspect of the show (dead people don't stay dead).

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

Comments on this post
SpaceLord agrees: You know the murder of so many people is usually rectified by death to the offender

LOL, are you purposely trying to bait this Angel fan? Sigh, I keep hoping for the best, only to have them dashed.

 

[Kean]

I'm surprised no one mentioned how ironic it is that Giles got killed the same way that Jenny was killed... And by Angel too, even!

It wasn't ironic, that was a deliberate move. A direct nod to how Jenny died. It's rather poetic. In a maudlin sort of way.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Scott confirmed that the things Aluwyn told Willow in #37 were accurate. And what she says is:

"Destroy the Seed, the gate and the path are gone. Hell has no avenue to your world. And you have a world without magic. There would be vestiges, remnants of demonic power -- vampires, the Slayers already called -- but the connection to all other realms would be severed. Your world will lose something it doesn't know it needs. And those who draw their power from elsewhere -- the witches -- lose everything."

Now, I didn't know that the Wiccans got their powers from outside this world. I thought they worshiped the Earth Mother and got their powers from this world... Willow even calls upon her (the Earth Mother) when she's attacking the demons.

It may be Willow and the other witches can get some of their power back by learning how to call on the magic that's native to this world.

 

[zobothehobo]

Scott confirmed that the things Aluwyn told Willow in #37 were accurate. And what she says is:

"Destroy the Seed, the gate and the path are gone. Hell has no avenue to your world. And you have a world without magic. There would be vestiges, remnants of demonic power -- vampires, the Slayers already called -- but the connection to all other realms would be severed. Your world will lose something it doesn't know it needs. And those who draw their power from elsewhere -- the witches -- lose everything."

Now, I didn't know that the Wiccans got their powers from outside this world. I thought they worshiped the Earth Mother and got their powers from this world... Willow even calls upon her (the Earth Mother) when she's attacking the demons.

It may be Willow and the other witches can get some of their power back by learning how to call on the magic that's native to this world.

I think worshiping mother Earth and drawing their powers from mother Earth means the seed. Because the seed was connected to the Earth and they drew their power from that.

 

[racheltng]

Sigh...I have been a huge defender of S8. I have even said that I love S8. Now, I feel like Anya, as in, "I want to take it back." It wasn't worth it. I would give all of S8 back if that meant that Giles was alive. Wow. I can't believe I'm saying this.

 

[zobothehobo]

I feel like the only person in the world who really doesn't think Giles' death was that horrible. I mean... I kind of felt something bad was going to happen with Giles. I thought he was going to be the big betrayer and after that Buffy wasn't going to want to talk to him ever again.. but dying works too. Basically, I kind of felt he wasn't going to be in the picture much.. especially since I feel he already betrayed everyone in season 8 by not telling them what he knew about Twilight. (that is if I'm remembering that correctly. I read that once in the bookstore like a month and a half ago, but I think I remember Giles withholding a lot of information that really could have helped and prevented a lot of the damage) Also, I really don't like Giles. And this gives the entire fandom and all of the characters a legit concrete reason to despise Angel. So on the one hand, I'm sad Buffy's loss... but I'm actually kind of pleased about the death. A character I didn't like (but everyone else did for some reason) died at the hand of Angel.

 

[Icarium]

So Giles dies in a totally underwhelming fashion. Whatever, Joss. Oh, and Willow is all "we lost!" because they saved the world by getting rid of magic. I wish they had killed Willow too because it really pains me to see her again reduced to "magic, magic, must have magic". If I had any faith in Whedon I could say that now that magic is gone he will be forced to actually explore other aspects of her character but as it is she will probably be depressed for a time than magic will return through some new macguffin. The Master ended up as totally pointless gimmick - raise your hands if you saw that one coming a mile away. Ditto for Warren.

And by the by, just how dumb is Angel? So he kills Angel and while he is gloating he lets Buffy take the Scythe. What an idiot...Too bad she didn't use it to kill him. I wonder how many of her friends he needs to kill before she loses that blind spot she has for him? Would just Willow be enough? Or Willow and Xander? Willow, Xander and Dawn? Willow, Xander, Dawn, Hank and aunt Arleen maybe? Nah, who am I kidding...

Positives - Spike was utterly irrelevant so at we least we were spared the indignity of him saving the world from the stupidity of Buffy et al. But hey, maybe in Issue 40 he will stop Buffy from marrying Angel or something...

 

[Litheran]

I think they're showing Spike as the last one to see the small picture. Obviously he's caught up in Twilight cause it's a big deal; but everyone else is so concerned with the war, that they're not taking the time to focus on the battles. Someone said something about him joining the scoobs for season nine. I gotta say I'd prefer him on his own for a while. Really distance himself from Buffy and Angel and get out from under their shadows.

 

[GrrArghx]

Well, looks like I was right. I was one of those who voted Giles would die in that "who do you think might/will die this season?" thread.

It's incredibly disappointing, though, that his actions in the last few seasons of BtVS and in ANGEL S5 caused me to dislike him so much that I didn't feel anything beyond (a bit of) shock at his death.. Besides that - I thought he was confirmed for S9? Doesn't seem permanent and if it's not, then it's all pretty much a waste of time.

I can't comment on much of anything else, because if I'm going to piece everything from the season together like you guys are, I'll need to read it over from beginning to end - which I won't be doing until they release it in a bundle or however they do that. So in all honesty, I don't get all of this because I can't remember the older issues.

---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ----------

zobothehobo agrees: I don't know how it could not be permanent with the whole no magic thing

True but then how is he going to be in S9? And wasn't he on the cover for the next issue? Color me confused.