Spoiler! Discussion of Buffy 9.05 "Slayer Interrupted"- Released 01/11/12 (Dark Horse)

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

She says in this video that it's common for male writers to have their female characters become pregnant that some point.
That's interesting, because I was discussing Buffy's pregnancy with my co-worker last week (who's a fan) and he said that's to "be expected, because men can't help the pregnancy storyline."

So, if this is true, why are men so fixated on their female characters getting pregnant, and often with disastrous results?

 

[ladydorotea]

Why would he outright lie like that? You've said this several times, although it was in reference to Allie before. What proof do you have that any of them have outright lied to readers? Mis-leads yes. That happened during the show. But out-and-out lies.

If the answer contains words like 'maybe' six months or 'about' half a year it is not outright lie. And yes, Allie lied before to save plot point surprise - like he did about Spike and Angel's appearance in S8 when he said after the dream panel of threesome that that likely is the last we will see of these two in S8.

PS

My main point of contention though is the timing of S9. 3 days from issue #1 to issue #4 , then two nights of dream hunting - and the roomies confront her about the Slayer stuff found in her room during issue #4 - if that finding was 4 weeks ago and she was living with them all that time - it is plain weird. And where was she all that time if she was not in her apartment ? Anything less than 4 weeks between 1 and 5 and positive pregnancy test is just impossible.

 

[babyjagger1993]

Does this mean Faith is the responsible Slayer now?

No......Faith's got a few skeletons in her closet too.

 

[ladydorotea]

You admit it yourself that you only watched Season 1, why do you insist? Sorry to spoil it to you, but Beaver did rape Veronica that night.

Well, than they retconned it in S2 of the VM series. Because in S2 episode 6 it did not happen yet. Not that I seriously am impressed with the VM series, but at least they took the issue of the black out drunk sex somewhat seriously - and all I see so far in Buffy comics discussion is excited discussion of how Spike will play baby daddy ( to a potentially rape child). I will be seriously pissed if Buffy will let it go, or if we will have to wait till S10 to find out that she was raped and gave birth to rape child. That will seriously put me off the comic.

 

[VisionGirl]

Pregnancy symptoms an occur 2-3 weeks after conception: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/symptoms-of-pregnancy/PR00102

Some of the earliest pregnancy tests can detect increased hcg levels at 10 days post conception: http://www.ovulation-calculator.com/pregnancy-tests/early-pregnancy-tests.htm

Personally, I had positive pregnancy tests 3 weeks past conception. So, it's possible, although it would be really early. But it's more likely that the writers are playing loosey-goosy with the timeline.

 

[ladydorotea]

Pregnancy symptoms an occur 2-3 weeks after conception: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/symptoms-of-pregnancy/PR00102

Personally, I had positive pregnancy tests 3 weeks past conception. So, it's possible, although it would be really early. But it's more likely that the writers are playing loosey-goosy with the timeline.

It cannot be even 2-3 weeks yet technically. Because it looks like she only spent 2 nights back in her apartment. And the test she got is your garden variety drugstore test. And if the writers are playing loosey-goosey with the timeline of S9 it can be easily said that they are doing the same with S8 to S9 transition. Could have been 4 months, or 5 months or 6 months if you ignore all the loose answers by the crew. If I don't see Buffy going straight to the doctor in her next issue and getting straight answer I am going to be seriously pissed, because if it is 1 month or 2 months nothing should stop her from terminating the possibly rape pregnancy. If she ignores the visit and pretends nothing happened ... Well would you think it fair to the female audience ?

 

[zianna]

Well, than they retconned it in S2 of the VM series. Because in S2 episode 6 it did not happen yet. Not that I seriously am impressed with the VM series, but at least they took the issue of the black out drunk sex somewhat seriously - and all I see so far in Buffy comics discussion is excited discussion of how Spike will play baby daddy ( to a potentially rape child). I will be seriously pissed if Buffy will let it go, or if we will have to wait till S10 to find out that she was raped and gave birth to rape child. That will seriously put me off the comic.

They didn't retcon anything. Veronica lost her virginity from her boyfriend, but Beaver raped her too that night and gave her a STD which is the way she found out about it and she learned exactly what happened that night. By the end of season 1 she still doesn't know every detail of what happened.

 

[VisionGirl]

She says in this video that it's common for male writers to have their female characters become pregnant that some point.
That's interesting, because I was discussing Buffy's pregnancy with my co-worker last week (who's a fan) and he said that's to "be expected, because men can't help the pregnancy storyline."

So, if this is true, why are men so fixated on their female characters getting pregnant, and often with disastrous results?

I don't know, maybe to render them weak? Or maybe because they're afraid of the innate life-giving abilities of women (says the feminist in me)? One of my favorite articles questions Whedon's feminism, especially in regard to older or more mature women (mature referring mental/emotional maturity or physical maturity, the apex of which is pregnancy and childbirth). Think about it: Joyce? Dead. Jenny? Dead. Darla? Dead. Cordy? Dead. Tara?(certainly more womanly-looking than the other females) Dead. Women reaching maturity = power. And as Buffy said in The Long Way Home, "It's about power and it's about women and you just hate those two words in the same sentence."

What does this say about Buffy's future? Well, here's to hoping that they will treat this situation with some dignity.

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

It cannot be even 2-3 weeks yet technically. Because it looks like she only spent 2 nights back in her apartment. And the test she got is your garden variety drugstore test. And if the writers are playing loosey-goosey with the timeline of S9 it can be easily said that they are doing the same with S8 to S9 transition. Could have been 4 months, or 5 months or 6 months if you ignore all the loose answers by the crew. If I don't see Buffy going straight to the doctor in her next issue and getting straight answer I am going to be seriously pissed, because if it is 1 month or 2 months nothing should stop her from terminating the possibly rape pregnancy. If she ignores the visit and pretends nothing happened ... Well would you think it fair to the female audience ?

We don't know the time frame between #4 & #5. It certainly could t be very long, but it could be a few weeks. I guess we shall find out.

You're making assumptions that it's rape. It's possible, but not absolutely the case. As a pro-choice woman I think that Buffyshould do what feels right for her. It's not for me to make that decision. Yes, I think she should find out what happened. Mostly I think that the writers should tread carefully now that they've introduced this storyline.

 

[ladydorotea]

We don't know the time frame between #4 & #5. It certainly could t be very long, but it could be a few weeks. I guess we shall find out.

My main indicator is roomies finding the weapons in issue 4 - and then waiting till the end of issue 5 to bring this up, while they are very upset about it right away. It seems kind of a pointless development if they waited and she came and went in and out for weeks. And she starts throwing up even before the test. It all is fairly fishy to me. Add two t-shirts in the dream - one with a robot (bot ?) on it, another with blue angelic wings and it looks even fishi-er.

You're making assumptions that it's rape. It's possible, but not absolutely the case. As a pro-choice woman I think that Buffy should do what feels right for her. It's not for me to make that decision. Yes, I think she should find out what happened. Mostly I think that the writers should tread lightly now that they've introduces this storyline.

I am of the opposite opinion here. Drunk blackout sex cannot be ever considered consensual at least not by the victim. You find out you are pregnant and cannot remember with whom you were - it is the greatest physical insecurity and violation of dignity I can think of, plain and straightforward. This should be resolved quickly, or it will turn into a 'she might have enjoyed this while unconscious' fantasy. There are way too many movies based on this trope ( Kill Bill for one) already.

 

[VisionGirl]

My main indicator is roomies finding the weapons in issue 4 - and then waiting till the end of issue 5 to bring this up, while they are very upset about it right away. It seems kind of a pointless development if they waited and she came and went in and out for weeks. And she starts throwing up even before the test. It all is fairly fishy to me. Add two t-shirts in the dream - one with a robot (bot ?) on it, another with blue angelic wings and it looks even fishi-er.

I understand your point, but I think that they will claim that it's been 1.5-3 weeks, simply to go along with what Allie said. I simply don't think they put as much thought into the timeline as you and I are.

I am of the opposite opinion here. Drunk blackout sex cannot be ever considered consensual at least not by the victim. You find out you are pregnant and cannot remember with whom you were - it is the greatest physical insecurity and violation of dignity I can think of, plain and straightforward. This should be resolved quickly, or it will turn into a 'she might have enjoyed this while unconscious' fantasy. There are way too many movies based on this trope ( Kill Bill for one) already.

Again, I do see your point. But if the partner was in the same drunken state, how can we call it rape? And your point is still separate from what a woman might choose to do with the product of that conception.

 

[ladydorotea]

I understand your point, but I think that they will claim that it's been 1.5-3 weeks, simply to go along with what Allie said. I simply don't think they put as much thought into the timeline as you and I are.

I am not sure about what they would do. That's why I said I would expect her to make a B-line to the doctor in her next issue, and if she does not I will consider it weird. Ultrasound results please!

Again, I do see your point. But if the partner was in the same drunken state, how can we call it rape? And your point is still separate from what a woman might choose to do with the product of that conception.

There were no indication of anybody being blackout drunk in issue 1 besides Buffy, was there? I mean, she wakes up alone and nobody comes forward and apologizes to her and tells her 'listen, last night we were wrong to do it'. Two people blacking out completely? And Aliie insisting 'she does not know' ? Pretty much sounds like she was taken advantage of by someone to me. Straight VM situation.

If they go ahead and make her keep the baby without knowing whose it is (or at least suspecting) I will certainly think them pushing for women's body and her dignity being of lesser importance than life of a child. Which is a conscious choice a writer can make, but a it is a pretty well defined one. It can be acceptable to some but it is a big deal.

 

[Icarium]

I understand your point, but I think that they will claim that it's been 1.5-3 weeks, simply to go along with what Allie said. I simply don't think they put as much thought into the timeline as you and I are.

Yes, let's not forget we are talking about the same bunch of geniuses who moved the story to our time because apparently the audience would find the pop-culture references of five years ago completely puzzling and they just had to have iPads in their story...

 

[babyjagger1993]

Excuse Me For Chiming In On The Discussion.

But Wouldnt It have been smarter to follow along with the original series?

Doing 5 year time jump doesnt really help anything.

It's just more and more confusing for us as the readers to figure out the timeline.

We dont know if buffy is even really pregnant. It could be a dream?

Joss could be pulling a "I didnt know I was Pregnant" on us and for all we know

buffy gives birth next issue.

 

[Leeson]

Okay, on the 'rape' thing first.

It is wholly and entirely possible that either her partner was as drunk as she was or that she seemed in a common state, frankly. Buffy may have blacked out, but the behaviour we saw from her was coordinated and concious. No, that doesn't make it okay.

However, I think Buffy having an abortion, while I would like it to be considered, is wildly out of character.

and she keeps it because 'life is sacred' then I will quit.

Why? Because a woman whose job it is to save human lives, to preserve humanity, to never take an innocent life, might think that life is sacred?

I'm as pro-choice as they come, I don't believe in 'personhood' amendments, I believe an embryo is an embryo and a fetus is a fetus and a baby is a baby, but...

Buffy's entire mission in life is to preserve, save, serve and be devoutly dedicated to human lives.

And have you ever been pregnant? Despite everything I think re: zygote, emryo, fetus, et cetera, and I'm not saying I'm the only 'type, at my first ultrasound I didn't think "That's a fetus", I thought, "That's my baby" and I wasn't even decided on what I would do at that point.

I think people are being too black-and-white about this.

 

[ladydorotea]

Okay, on the 'rape' thing first.

It is wholly and entirely possible that either her partner was as drunk as she was or that she seemed in a common state, frankly. Buffy may have blacked out, but the behaviour we saw from her was coordinated and concious. No, that doesn't make it okay.

As far as I know sexual assault on an unconscious female while drunk yourself is still considered a rape if she was indeed unresponsive. And getting somebody drunk to the point of them blacking out is kind of awful. A child conceived under such circumstances is pretty much a child of rape. If that happened.

I'm as pro-choice as they come

Actually, no, you are not. Judging by what you are arguing here - no.

And have you ever been pregnant?

Yup, I have a son.

Despite everything I think re: zygote, emryo, fetus, et cetera, and I'm not saying I'm the only 'type, at my first ultrasound I didn't think "That's a fetus", I thought, "That's my baby" and I wasn't even decided on what I would do at that point.

I think peoples reactions can be somewhat different depending on their personal experience. The reaction to something like that from my POV is disgust and feeling of extreme uncleanness. Trauma and feeling of not being safe anymore. I know she is super-strong and all - but it does not exclude a post traumatic stress. A pregnancy like this is a severe trauma , not a blessing.

I think people are being too black-and-white about this.

Try imagine getting pregnant from complete stranger while being blacked out - then try to be flexible about your body being violated like this, then speak about black and white.

 

[cordangel]

As far as I know sexual assault on an unconscious female while drunk yourself is still considered a rape if she was indeed unresponsive. And getting somebody drunk to the point of them blacking out is kind of awful. A child conceived under such circumstances is pretty much a child of rape. If that happened.



Actually, no, you are not. Judging by what you are arguing here - no.



Yup, I have a son.



I think peoples reactions can be somewhat different depending on their personal experience. The reaction to something like that from my POV is disgust and feeling of extreme uncleanness. Trauma and feeling of not being safe anymore. I know she is super-strong and all - but it does not exclude a post traumatic stress. A pregnancy like this is a severe trauma , not a blessing.



Try imagine getting pregnant from complete stranger while being blacked out - then try to be flexible about your body being violated like this, then speak about black and white.

Perfectly expressed, Dorotea. I'm with you completely. Every single word is just perfect:

 

[Moscow Watcher]

There are two points I want to discuss.

First - about conceiving in a drunk state. I wonder if my assessment of the situation is wrong because of the difference in national traditions and sex education.

I live in Russia and I was brought up in the belief that conceiving in drunk state is extremely dangerous for baby's mental and physical capabilities.

I noticed that at Whedonesque there were only two people who brought it up - Ladydorotea and me. And, as far as I know, Ladydorotea grew up in Russia. Then another fan spoke about it on my LJ, and that fan, who now lives in USA, is from Russia too.

The mod at Whedonesque told me that "being drunk during conception doesn't affect the development of a blastocyst that may not even actually be conceived or implanted yet."

So I have a question to American posters. In USA, is it considered okay from the physiological standpoint to keep a baby that was conceived when a woman was very drunk? I'm not talking about moral problems here - I talk only about physiology. If, say, a husband and a wife conceived a baby when a wife was drunk, would they be worried about consequences?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another question/pondering is about the narrative possibilities. Comparisons with "Veronica Mars" made me wonder if there will be a detective plot - a real investigation, with twists and turns? And if it will be a genre story at its core? (Think "Terminator" - a classic sci-fi adventure about time-travel that resulted in impregnating a woman with future savior of humanity.)

I reread issue 1. Buffy remembers her conversations with Xander, Riley, Andrew. But she doesn't remember anything about Heinrich. It's unclear why she went to him. To invite to the party? Why him? Why not other neighbors? Maybe he called and threatened to call police, so Buffy went to him to stop him? In any case, she went and came back on her own, so she wasn't unconscious during sex.
In "Life Serial" she was very drunk, but she remembered what she did. Is it possible that her amnesia was artificially induced? By Tink (I think "giant mosquito" line was directed at her). Or by Heinrich.

I hope there will be a twist. Like, Buffy meets Tink in person and finds out that Tink saw something crucial. Something that will be the starting point of investigation. The clues turn out to be false, but in the meantime Buffy finds another evidence, etc...

Then, in the end of the season there will be the crucial revelation that Buffy's child is special and she has to do something beartbreaking.

What do you think?

 

[brinkster130]

So I have a question to American posters. In USA, is it considered okay from the physiological standpoint to keep a baby that was conceived when a woman was very drunk? I'm not talking about moral problems here - I talk only about physiology. If, say, a husband and a wife conceived a baby when a wife was drunk, would they be worried about consequences?

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think there is a defined answer that is completely accepted in the US. From my experience in health classes and knowledge from my sister who had trouble conceiving, the professionals give different answers. Some believe that alcohol could harm the embryo, but others say that chances are there isn't enough alcohol in the system at a single given time to do any real harm. It is known that being drunk does make it harder to conceive, but it is something the can happen. Also, while trying to conceive many women do still drink lightly and it's not uncommon for women to continue having a glass of wine with meals up until they find out they are pregnant. To be honest, I think there is more information given about the dangers of drinking while pregnant vs conceiving while drinking.

 

[Leeson]

As far as I know sexual assault on an unconscious female while drunk yourself is still considered a rape if she was indeed unresponsive. And getting somebody drunk to the point of them blacking out is kind of awful. A child conceived under such circumstances is pretty much a child of rape. If that happened.

What I'm saying is: we don't know that Buffy was unconscious during sex. We don't know that Buffy even so much as seemed out of her wits during sex. We don't know anything about the situation. Yes, it is still rape, but we do not know anything about the situation. If the two participants were equally inebriated, then it can be argued that it was mutually non-consensual sex just based on the fact that neither had the faculty to consent.

I'm going to wait to learn the situation before I jump to conclusions.

Actually, no, you are not. Judging by what you are arguing here - no.

I'm not pro-choice because I argue that I think Buffy, a character who is all about preserving human life, wouldn't get an abortion? I'm not following that logic.

I really do not like that my status as pro-choice and women's rights is being questioned because I feel that a certain character would not get an abortion. That's Buffy. There are characters I can see getting abortions. I'm not arguing sanctity of life, I'm arguing that Buffy is a person who fights for lives. I can see her considering it, but I cannot see her going through with it. That's my reading of the character, not my personal feelings on termination.

I think peoples reactions can be somewhat different depending on their personal experience. The reaction to something like that from my POV is disgust and feeling of extreme uncleanness. Trauma and feeling of not being safe anymore. I know she is super-strong and all - but it does not exclude a post traumatic stress. A pregnancy like this is a severe trauma , not a blessing.

As I said, I'm not the only type. Frankly, however, I'm not getting the feeling that Buffy herself looks at the night in issue #1 as rape. She seems to have taken the "stupid mistake" angle. Whether she is mistaken or not, Buffy has not acted like she was raped and thus, in her mind, I don't think it will be a 'rape pregnancy' as much as a "one stupid night that dealt some serious consequences".

Try imagine getting pregnant from complete stranger while being blacked out - then try to be flexible about your body being violated like this, then speak about black and white.

I cannot pretend I would understand being in that situation. I won't. I won't imagine it.

However, I will repeat that A) Buffy has not been thinking about that night as violative, not that we have seen. She had sex, she does not know with whom. I believe she will think of the pregnancy more as a consequence of her drunken state than as a product of rape and B) while I think it is realistic for Buffy to consider abortion, I don't believe she will have the procedure.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm fairly convinced that there won't be any abortion by Buffy. They wouldn't write that pregnancy in, one of the biggest things that ever happened on the show, if it's just there for a few issues and then would be gone like nothing. They obviously have plans for Buffy and her baby. It's not something that you just write in. Oh yeah, something's cooking, and not just in Buffy's oven!