PrincessZombie
Logan+Veronica=LoVe
I'm pretty sure that Spike meant to get a soul when he went to Africa. He wanted a soul to be the man that Buffy deserved.
Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?
- Thread starter Emma Caulfield
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Here are some quotes that make it clear that Spike went to get his soul (at least, clear IMO 🙂). You can find where these quotes were compiled as part of a really interesting essay about this question. The essay can be found on the More Than Spike board on this page:
http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html
The quotes are from Laura's essay, and she goes on to list, at that link, the dialogue from Season 7 which supports what Joss, David (who wrote the last episode of Season 6 titled "Grave" in which Spike gets his soul), and Jane say.
"Spike's quest was, and ALWAYS WAS, to get his soul restored for Buffy, despite any misleading leaks we may have put out that you fell for." - David Fury on the Bronze Beta, 11/19/02
"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02
Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?"
Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist."
At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02
http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html
The quotes are from Laura's essay, and she goes on to list, at that link, the dialogue from Season 7 which supports what Joss, David (who wrote the last episode of Season 6 titled "Grave" in which Spike gets his soul), and Jane say.
"Spike's quest was, and ALWAYS WAS, to get his soul restored for Buffy, despite any misleading leaks we may have put out that you fell for." - David Fury on the Bronze Beta, 11/19/02
"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02
Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?"
Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist."
At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02
VisionGuy
Oh Plerr
You're welcome. 🙂 When you read the dialogue from Season 7 that Laura has in her essay, along with those quotes that I included in the previous post, it does make more sense. Of course, Joss had to tease about personally creating the device called the plot twist, but that is what they used to fool the fans. They did such a good job of it, along with James' very convincing acting, that some fans didn't believe them even after they revealed that it was indeed a plot twist, and that Spike had meant to get his soul. 😀
C
Caritas
Guest
Well, I don't think it was ever a question of better or worse. Angelus was much more purely evil than Spike. Look at their dialogue at the end of 'Destiny' and Spike's famous quote from Buffy season 2 ('We like to talk big... vampires do. "I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square.'). But Joss seems to go with a swicthed around version of CS Lewis' old saying 'the brighter the angel the darker the devil'. Spike with a soul is pretty much still in it for the kicks, though he is obviously a lot more concerned with doing the right thing.
The only real difference is that Spike's transformation was gradual. I think the argument that he was never legitimately doing good before he had a soul because of the chip, or that any good doesn't count because of the chip is silly. it was classic Joss Whedon... all about redemtion. It's very similar to the Faith story, but Spike has the advantage over Faith in that all of his atrocities were commited while he had no soul. We do often catch glimpses of vamprie's who are not quite as evil as Angelus so it stands to reason that even without a soul they can be good. Look at Harmony's role on Angel for example. But it's also important to note what Harmony eventually does. Without a soul they can never be truly redeemed. Spike may have gone and gotten his soul for mostly selfish reasons, but he had no soul at the time. And in any event the reason is not purely selfish. He wanted to give Buffy what she deserved, even if he thought it would be good for him as well, he had SOME good intentions.
Angel had a soul forced upon him and it drove him crazy for years, until finally he found the courage to fight, but when he did he became much more of a 'champion' as the Buffy people are fond of calling it. Angel is more concerned with doing what's right than his own glory (most of the time) where as Spike tends to be at least a bit more selfish.
I'd say these facts make it a tie. I personally prefer Spike, but I don't hate Angel like many Spike fans I've met do.
The only real difference is that Spike's transformation was gradual. I think the argument that he was never legitimately doing good before he had a soul because of the chip, or that any good doesn't count because of the chip is silly. it was classic Joss Whedon... all about redemtion. It's very similar to the Faith story, but Spike has the advantage over Faith in that all of his atrocities were commited while he had no soul. We do often catch glimpses of vamprie's who are not quite as evil as Angelus so it stands to reason that even without a soul they can be good. Look at Harmony's role on Angel for example. But it's also important to note what Harmony eventually does. Without a soul they can never be truly redeemed. Spike may have gone and gotten his soul for mostly selfish reasons, but he had no soul at the time. And in any event the reason is not purely selfish. He wanted to give Buffy what she deserved, even if he thought it would be good for him as well, he had SOME good intentions.
Angel had a soul forced upon him and it drove him crazy for years, until finally he found the courage to fight, but when he did he became much more of a 'champion' as the Buffy people are fond of calling it. Angel is more concerned with doing what's right than his own glory (most of the time) where as Spike tends to be at least a bit more selfish.
I'd say these facts make it a tie. I personally prefer Spike, but I don't hate Angel like many Spike fans I've met do.
T
THE BLUE
Guest
I don't think he won it. It wasn't his intention. He went there to become his former self which is a chip-free Spike.
I think thats what we were led to believe at the time but he really went to get his soul back.
E
eponinethen
Giving you back karma someone else took from you, since you are right and this is the truth ;)
P
postmortem
"Make me the once once I was" doesn't qualify with having a soul.
VisionGuy
I'm gonna be petty and disagree with this old post j/p :D
E
Ethereal Warrior
Guest
This is a difficult question. I don't really want to compare Angel and Spike because their characters and circumstances are quite different. And I really don't think that either one of them is "better" than the other one.
But I do think that because Spike sought out his soul and Angel was cursed with one, that Spike's soul has more "weight" to the idea of him being good.
Angel has worked very hard to do good in this world even against his nature. And I think he has done his best to make up for what he did in the past. He is justified in being called a champion because I think that he's done a lot of good, almost in ways that outweigh the bad things he did.
But Spike--I think he grew and developed much more as a character, even before the soul. He seemed to keep a tiny bit of humanity in him, at least in my opinion. And when he got his soul, I almost think that though he did not necessarily have a willingness to be good (at least at first), this act of getting a soul showed that he was different from Angel and that he, perhaps, might have been a better man in the long run or at least become a better man a lot quicker than Angel did.
Angel could still become Angelus if the soul was ever taken away. Spike has a soul and could either choose to be good or evil. But where Spike is different from Angel is that both his bad and good qualities are merged together whereas Angel's will always be separate. And I guess that's one of the reasons I sometimes tend to see Spike getting as soul a good deed.
drtroy
BEER BAD!
How did he DO it for the wrong reasons? He wanted to become a better man..forget about Buffy..he wanted to prove it to himself ALSO.
P
postmortem
To whom he wanted to prove himself? To Buffy. The end.
Schillaci
Scooby
And the little congregation prayed for guidance from above
Lead us not into temptation may his soul find this salvation of Thy great eternal love
Lead us not into temptation may his soul find this salvation of Thy great eternal love
drtroy
BEER BAD!
Spike isn't better..than Angel..Angel isn't better than Spike..they are ...way too different to compare. Not a fair comparism.
I wondered about that as well... I can't really tell but I think that they both did good to the world all that was different was Spike got his soul to change from what he used to be just like Buffy says in never leave me
he faced the demon inside and fought him so he gets to be a better souled vampire to me!!
he faced the demon inside and fought him so he gets to be a better souled vampire to me!!
First of all..what?
Second of all, I said that back in December.
Third of all (asuming you mean what I think you mean) yes it does. Or at least THAT IS MY OPINION. You cannot disagree with an opinion. If I said it was fact, then you could say it wasnt.
Also, assuming you meant "make me the man I once was", Spike had a soul once. So my point still stands.
E
Edmund Blackadder
You can disagree with an opinion.....but only when the opinion is wrong...yours wasn't
eponinethen
Majk
angeldarla
You still have a soul.
i dont think that this makes spike a better vampire than angel. the both of them have souls the only difference as you have said is that spike wanted it becAuse of buffy and angel was cursed by the gipses. and in my opinion angel is definitely a better vampire than spike. i dont know but i think is that bacause we saw the worst side of spike ( and angel too) but im an angel fan.
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
Wesley's Sylyna;294709; said:
Angel never missed the times when he had no soul his biggest fear was turning evil agian.He brooded because he was wraked with guilt for the bad things he did as Angelus.Angel's situation was more unique then Spikes because he was the worse vamp then Spike and being the ultimate evil vampire of all,being cursed with a soul made him want to do good deeds in way that Spike couldn't it had more impact on Angel. I can't say that either are better than the other they both have their own reasons for seeking redemption.On a more personal note i'd say Angel is a better vampire than Spike.
Schillaci
Scooby
So? Just because he 'feared' becomming Angelus does not mean he never missed the times he was. Through the course of the show Angel actually says about a half dozen times that he 'missed' being Angelus. 🙄
He certainly implied that he missed the simplicity of his evil days, and he once noted that he enjoyed memories, after a fashion, of Angelus' evil deeds.
Yep! When ensouled both sought redemption. If we want to make a distinction in terms of value then we must look at the surrounding factors that seperate the two cases with which to judge who was the better of the two. For example: Angel took 100 years before he sought redemption(and in that time he killed and drank from humans), Spike took a couple of months.
Hmm, 100 years..2 months...
I don't understand what you mean by "On a more personal note"...
Angel's vision
Silence! I Keel you!
Schillaci
Scooby
What you wrote before that was somebody else's opinion? Was everything else in that post from your cats perspective?
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