Does this make Spike a better vampire then Angel?

[Black Eye Guy]

Sorry to disagree, Black Eye, but the last thing Spike did before attempting to get a soul was to STOP HIS ATTACK on the Slayer, and before you say that she fought him off, review the scene and look at the look of shock on Spike's face when he realized what he had been attempting to do.

Spike absolutly did not stop his attak on Buffy!! She kicked him off, and then he realised what he was doing, but he did not make a concious decision to stop the attack!

What would Angelus have done under those circumstances? Both are soulless monsters, right? You can't compare an ensouled Angel with a soulless Spike and get a true picture of either man. Spike is the same, regardless of whether he has a soul or not. Angel/Angelus most certainly is not.

Thats not true, Spike in season 2 is the only version of Spike you can compare with anglus! The chip changed spike, because he had no other choice!!

 

[Schillaci]

Trying to coerce Buffy into having violent sex(of which was the nature of their sexual relationship) was not the last thing Spike did before getting his soul.

 

[Wicked]

See I still maintain that Spike didn't intentionally get his soul back 😉

Well Im currently watching season 7. Beneath You just finished and Spike admited to Buffy that he deliberatly went to get his soul back.

 

[Jules]

Spike was not a man before he got his soul. He was a vampire, he was a demon and creature of evil. The fact that he couldn't kill humans wasn't a choice of his in the beginning, it was forced on him, much like Angel's soul. The fact that he was still bloodthursty was shown by the fact that he started to hunt and kill his own kind because the demon in him needed a kill.

I think Spike's actions before he got a soul don't make him a good man, they make him a pathetic demon.

And I got the impression that Spike sought the demon to loose his chip not gain his soul. To me it came across as if the demon tricked him. The demon probably knew Spike's subcounscious wishes, but I don't think it was Spike's motivation to seeking the demon.

But anyway, say Spike did got to gain his soul, he didn't go there because he wanted to save the world, he did it for Buffy. And even though it was a noble gesture it doesn't make him a better person. I find that people who change for other people don't generally stay changed. For example, say you have a smoker who quits smoking for a loved one, and say that loved one leaves (for whatever reason) the person who quits has no more motivation to stay not smoking. Spike's motives would have been better if he had sort his soul for himself, not to show Buffy he could be what she needed.

That doesn't mean I think he's less of a champion than Angel.

I do think Spike's less of a vampire though. Angelus was evil right up to the end and he was punished for his actions with a soul. Spike's demon just went soft 🙂

 

[Wicked]

My god. How many times o people have to say it before people understand? It has be proven that Spike went to get his soul back on purpose.

For example the POst before yours and the fact that the writers have told us so. How can you argue with the writers? They wrote it.

 

[Buffy Summers]

You could argue that, what is he really going to say to her. "Hi Buffy, I went to get my demonic, human-killing ways back"?

 

[Jules]

And how many different ways can I type this:

''And I got the impression that Spike sought the demon to loose his chip not gain his soul. To me it came across as if the demon tricked him. The demon probably knew Spike's subcounscious wishes, but I don't think it was Spike's motivation to seeking the demon.''

Meaning that when I watched the show, I thought the above. I made my own decisions from what I saw. I did not wait for someone else to explain it to me, or watch the commentary before coming to a decision.

 

[Wicked]

Well then, I guess you thought wrong 😛

 

[Schillaci]

And how many different ways can I type this:

''And I got the impression that Spike sought the demon to loose his chip not gain his soul. To me it came across as if the demon tricked him. The demon probably knew Spike's subcounscious wishes, but I don't think it was Spike's motivation to seeking the demon.''

Meaning that when I watched the show, I thought the above. I made my own decisions from what I saw. I did not wait for someone else to explain it to me, or watch the commentary before coming to a decision.

Aww, you poor little thing, did you not understand the show? There there.

When Buffy came back from the dead in season 6, did you instantly know she had been in Heaven? No. Its called creating a story, building suspense. Making it believable.

Don't be too perturbed you belong to a large group of fans who missunderstand aspects of the show. Its difficult for you, I know, to understand something as vast and complex as..Buffy...

You could argue that, what is he really going to say to her. "Hi Buffy, I went to get my demonic, human-killing ways back"?

If that was his reason, then yeah, he would have told Buffy that. I don't think you understand the character of Spike too well.

Also, it might be prudent for the two of you to note, that Spike isn't the only character that confirms that his intent was to get a soul. The First also mentions it to Spike, more than once.

 

[Jules]

Aww, you poor little thing, did you not understand the show? There there.

When Buffy came back from the dead in season 6, did you instantly know she had been in Heaven? No. Its called creating a story, building suspense. Making it believable.

Don't be too perturbed you belong to a large group of fans who missunderstand aspects of the show. Its difficult for you, I know, to understand something as vast and complex as..Buffy...

Ok, so let me see if I'm understanding your post.

Your saying that the writters make the show and they expect every single person who watches it to think exactly the same way they do, that if they take something different away from the show then its wrong...

Then if your thinking that way then all these discussions are actually pointless because people's individual understandings of the show are pointless...right...let me know if I'm understanding you.

Also, if you have a disagreement with one of my posts then let me know and I'll discuss with you were I get my opinions from...without quoting the writters. I'll give you my opinion 🙂 But your above post just seems slightly pointless and sarcastic....

 

[Wicked]

We understood that you thought Spike went to get his chip out. But we have told you that he didnt. You dont seem to understand our posts.

 

[Jules]

And your misunderstanding me. You can tell me till your blue in the face that the writters have said that Spike went to get his soul. But in my opinion I thought he went to get his chip removed. He may have subconsciously wanted his soul, but when I watched the show I didn't get that impression.

I'm entitled to my opinion...as I watched the show (before I knew what the writters said) that's what I thought. Its hard to change my mind.

And I seriously doubt that Joss minds if people think differently about different parts of his show...that's why so many different people like Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Different people relate to it differently.

 

[Wicked]

I keep telling you I know what youre saying. Its not difficult to figure out.

I know thats your opinion. You keep saying that. What I dont understand is how you can still think that when you know otherwise. Thats just stupid.

 

[Jules]

Clearly you don't get what I'm saying.

My opinion wont change if its different to what the writters wanted to original say.

If everyone agreed with everything life would be incredibly dull.

 

[Wicked]

But how can you still think that when you have proof against it? It makes no sense!

If I think something and Im proven wrong, I dont still think it!

 

[Schillaci]

Ok, so let me see if I'm understanding your post.

Your saying that the writters make the show and they expect every single person who watches it to think exactly the same way they do, that if they take something different away from the show then its wrong...

Then if your thinking that way then all these discussions are actually pointless because people's individual understandings of the show are pointless...right...let me know if I'm understanding you.

Also, if you have a disagreement with one of my posts then let me know and I'll discuss with you were I get my opinions from...without quoting the writters. I'll give you my opinion 🙂 But your above post just seems slightly pointless and sarcastic....

Are you kidding? Do you understand art, at all? Interpretation does not lend itself to calling a painting a sculpture, or vice versa.

If I believe that Buffy was actually a man, are you suggesting I would be right because I have a different opinion? Your argument really is preposterous.

You are mistaking 'meaning' for 'plot'. I don't think deliberately, I think you really are just that deficient.

 

[Jules]

But how can you still think that when you have proof against it? It makes no sense!

If I think something and Im proven wrong, I dont still think it!

Tell me its black and I'll argue its white, if I believe it strongly enough.

Are you kidding? Do you understand art, at all? Interpretation does not lend itself to calling a painting a sculpture, or vice versa.

If I believe that Buffy was actually a man, are you suggesting I would be right because I have a different opinion? Your argument really is preposterous.

You are mistaking 'meaning' for 'plot'. I don't think deliberately, I think you really are just that deficient.

You know, I've been back at the boards a couple of days and I already don't like you. I like a good debate as good as the next person but I really dislike how you belittle peoples opinion. If you want to debate stuff with me thats fine, but stop calling me deficient.

I keep forgetting that you must be all knowing on the subject of Buffy, and of course everyone elses opinions are just wrong.

But anyway, we are way off topic on this one...so I'll leave it there...

 

[Wicked]

Tell me its black and I'll argue its white, if I believe it strongly enough.

Well then youre f***ing stupid.

Im so sick of arguing this point. Me and Whatshisname both tell you how it is and you just cant accept that. Thats your problem.

 

[Schillaci]

You know, I've been back at the boards a couple of days and I already don't like you. I like a good debate as good as the next person but I really dislike how you belittle peoples opinion. If you want to debate stuff with me thats fine, but stop calling me deficient.

Your 'reasoning' is deficient. I make no apologies for stating the truth.

I keep forgetting that you must be all knowing on the subject of Buffy, and of course everyone elses opinions are just wrong.

Write it on your hand, then you'll always be reminded.. Dzhugashvili knows all, Dzhugashvili knows all..

But anyway, we are way off topic on this one...so I'll leave it there...

The international sign for 'RETREAT!'. Spike's motive for getting a soul is debatable, his intent to get a soul isn't. That's what you are not understanding.

Just answer this one question: If its my opinion that Buffy is actually a man, would I be wrong?

 

[VisionGuy]

From Buffyverse Dialogue Database

Here Spike tells Buffy he went to get his soul. He calls it the spark.

SPIKE: Hello.

BUFFY: What the hell are you--?

SPIKE: (tossing his shirt away) It didn't work. Costume. Didn't help. Couldn't hide.

BUFFY: No more mind games, Spike.

SPIKE: No more mind games. No more mind.

BUFFY: (reaching for his scarred chest) Tell me what happened to you.

SPIKE: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else. Not a spark. Oh, fine. Flesh then. Solid through. (starts unzipping his pants) Get it hard; service the girl.

BUFFY: Stop it!

SPIKE: Right. Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we in a soddin' engine?

BUFFY: Spike, have you completely lost your mind?

SPIKE: (lucidly) Well, yes. Where've you been all night?

BUFFY: You thought you would just come back here and... be with me?

SPIKE: First time for everything.

BUFFY: This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what happened.

SPIKE: I tried to find it, of course.

BUFFY: Find what?

SPIKE: The spark. The missing... the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want... (starts to cry) God, I can't... Not with you looking. (drags himself into shadows)

SPIKE: I dreamed of killing you. I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your... ending? Angel--he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.

BUFFY: Your soul.

SPIKE: Bit worse for lack of use.

BUFFY: You got your soul back. How?

SPIKE: It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? And--and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I-- and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath--beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... to hell.

BUFFY: Why? Why would you do that--

SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev-- (chokes up) to be a kind of man. (approaching the alter & a giant cross) She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved. So everything's OK, right? (rests on the cross, his flesh starts to smoke) Can--can we rest now? Buffy...can we rest?

-Beneath You

Here the First as the Mayor tells Spike that he thought wrong if he thought his soul would fix things.

SPIKE: (crouched on the floor) The thing is...I had a speech. I learned it all. Oh, God. She won't understand, she won't understand.

MORPHING EVIL THING (as WARREN): Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as GLORY):..more than blood. I'm... you know, I honestly don't think there's a human word fabulous enough for me. Oh, my name will be on everyone's lips, assuming their lips haven't been torn off. But not just yet. That's alright, though...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as ADAM): ...I can be patient. Everything is well within parameters. She's exactly where I want her to be. And so are you, Number 17. You're right where you belong.

MORPHING EVIL THING (as THE MAYOR): So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, but...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as DRUSILLA): ...you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with me, singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning. And that's where we're going...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as THE MASTER): ...right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong...

MORPHING EVIL THING (as BUFFY): ...it's about power.

-Lessons

Here Spike tells Buffy he got his soul back for her.

SPIKE: As daft a notion as "Soulful Spike the Killer" is, it is nothing compared to the idea that another girl could mean anything to me. This chip, they did to me. I couldn't help it. But the soul, I got on my own... for you.

-Sleeper

There probably are more but I don't really feel like digging them out now.