I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy NEVER asked Spike to go get a soul... That the guy went and got a soul anyway

Because he knew what she needed even if she did not. That's why he went and got a soul.

 

[thetopher]

@katmobile Faith was not zero provocation she wanted a fight, she did it partly to stop him dragging down morale but it was part cartasis. Faith almost raped/murdered Xander and effectively raped Buffy and Riley. Anya he was half crazy, Xander getting out
Point by point:

- Faith was standing there with her arms folded, how is that provocative towards Spike? She told him to stop being self-righteous and so she gets clocked? Why will no Spike fan say 'yeah, this was kind of a dick-move'. Nope, it's always 'Faith had it coming.' 🙄

That's errant nonsense, normal people don't reply to requests (even aggressive ones) with punching and its kind of a repeating habit with Spike in S7. Please stop saying that its an okay reaction. Casual violence is crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it.

- Faith almost murdered Xander, there was no rape. It had a sexual element to begin with.
Faith didn't rape Buffy, it was a metaphorical violation. A body swap that is not possible in the real world, like memory-wipes and mind-control orbs and the like.
Its also completely irrelevant to the points I was making. Faith has been reformed far longer than Spike and she doesn't go around committing acts of violence against people for no good reason.

- With Anya Spike was acting perfectly sane for a while there. If he has enough wherewithal to deceive then he isn't 'half-crazy'. He's only half-crazy after accidentally stabbing worm-boy (or whoever he was) with a pipe.

- He knocked Xander out because he wanted to 'go out'? Tell me why Xander had it coming?


@katmobile: It's more that in a sense any good action committed soulless is moving upstream. Also the AR is he didn't understand why she said no or wanted to that her guilt over her being with someone who didn't share her morality which he couldn't was destroying.

Firstly, Spike was still capable of doing great evil in S6, and very much still wanted to. He wasn't really that reformed except when it came to Buffy, and he ended up hurting her plenty.
And quite frankly it doesn't matter if Spike 'didn't understand' or whatever, he still did it. And his 'love' for Buffy 'made' him do it, just like he went to get a soul for his love of her. Yet later he crows about the latter and can't even be bothered to apologize for the former. If that's the case then he's culpable for both.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

"Sex" is Latin for six.

 

[katmobile]

@katmobile Faith was not zero provocation she wanted a fight, she did it partly to stop him dragging down morale but it was part cartasis. Faith almost raped/murdered Xander and effectively raped Buffy and Riley. Anya he was half crazy, Xander getting out
Point by point:

- Faith was standing there with her arms folded, how is that provocative towards Spike? She told him to stop being self-righteous and so she gets clocked? Why will no Spike fan say 'yeah, this was kind of a dick-move'. Nope, it's always 'Faith had it coming.' 🙄

That's errant nonsense, normal people don't reply to requests (even aggressive ones) with punching and its kind of a repeating habit with Spike in S7. Please stop saying that its an okay reaction. Casual violence is crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it.

- Faith almost murdered Xander, there was no rape. It had a sexual element to begin with.
Faith didn't rape Buffy, it was a metaphorical violation. A body swap that is not possible in the real world, like memory-wipes and mind-control orbs and the like.
Its also completely irrelevant to the points I was making. Faith has been reformed far longer than Spike and she doesn't go around committing acts of violence against people for no good reason.

- With Anya Spike was acting perfectly sane for a while there. If he has enough wherewithal to deceive then he isn't 'half-crazy'. He's only half-crazy after accidentally stabbing worm-boy (or whoever he was) with a pipe.

- He knocked Xander out because he wanted to 'go out'? Tell me why Xander had it coming?


@katmobile: It's more that in a sense any good action committed soulless is moving upstream. Also the AR is he didn't understand why she said no or wanted to that her guilt over her being with someone who didn't share her morality which he couldn't was destroying.

Firstly, Spike was still capable of doing great evil in S6, and very much still wanted to. He wasn't really that reformed except when it came to Buffy, and he ended up hurting her plenty.
And quite frankly it doesn't matter if Spike 'didn't understand' or whatever, he still did it. And his 'love' for Buffy 'made' him do it, just like he went to get a soul for his love of her. Yet later he crows about the latter and can't even be bothered to apologize for the former. If that's the case then he's culpable for both.

I never said Faith had it coming I actually like Faith a lot and think she handled herself a lot better than most during the EP fight. She was stressed and like Spike finds violence a release. It's like the abuse of season six he's not blameless but it's not a one way street. She may have had her arms folded but her words are provocative and she essentially calls him pussy whipped during the fight which to me indicates she was using having a go at him as an excuse. She knew he could take being a punchbag and others around her couldn't and she also knew she could take whatever he threw at her and others couldn't. I think it was the darkness in them both is why it happened.

I'd flip the question and say why do Faith fans never acknowledge she pulled a lot of the same shit Spike did, her reasons were different but there are a lot of parallels which is why I like both characters. If you don't care about motive for Seeing Red I think the metaphysics of Who Are You make no essential difference to that situation. Buffy still felt violated and angry towards Faith. Also it was deliberately vindictive and I don't believe the AR was that. It was wrong and horrific but desperate not vindictive.

Spike apologises plenty to Buffy and it's pretty clear early in the season he's torn up over it. If you mean to Angel well they don't bring out the best in each other and the remark comes from Angel saying Buffy never loved Spike and was thinking of him. They basically make each other insecure and they BOTH behave like gits as a result.

Spike is pretty much all other the place in early season seven even he thinks he's crazy. I think as well part of him wants Buffy to hate him and God knows what the First is telling him.

Xander stands in Spike's way when he's trying to go to figure out what's happening to him. He's scared and desperate. Xander says 'you're going nowhere' but he has to know so he essential hits Xander to get past him and the chip fires and he runs off. It's not great but it's not unprovoked or vindictive either.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

- Faith was standing there with her arms folded, how is that provocative towards Spike? She told him to stop being self-righteous and so she gets clocked? Why will no Spike fan say 'yeah, this was kind of a dick-move'. Nope, it's always 'Faith had it coming.' 🙄

That's errant nonsense, normal people don't reply to requests (even aggressive ones) with punching and its kind of a repeating habit with Spike in S7. Please stop saying that its an okay reaction. Casual violence is crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Faith was antagonising Spike.

Spike is in the middle of calling out the scoobies about betraying Buffy when Faith basically tells him to shut up because "The time for speech-giving is over, bat boy" and she also tells him to "Save your lack of breath" which is when Spike punches her. Faith doesn't act shocked or anything but immediately starts hitting him back whilst taunting him about Buffy, saying "You're pretty sweet on her, aren't you? (kicks Spike in the face) I think it's cute. (Spike punches Faith; she punches him back) They way she's got you whipped." Spike then replies "Finally got what you wanted, didn't you?" He is then the one to walk away.

There are several elements here:

1. Spike is rightfully angry that the scoobies have betrayed Buffy.

2. He's just walked into the situation. Willow tries to feed him a cock and bull story about Buffy deciding to take some time off which he doesn't believe and he quickly susses that they kicked her out.

3. Faith, of all people, is telling him to pipe down. Buffy is not a fan of hers and he walks in and finds Faith in charge. As far as he's concerned, she's deliberately usurped Buffy's position as leader.

4. Faith makes snide jabs at his vampire status, calling him "bat boy" and telling him to "save his lack of breath".

5. Faith isn't shocked or surprised at being punched but immediately jumps in throwing punches of her own almost instantly. She then taunts Spike about his feelings for Buffy.

Spike may not have been right to punch her, but equally she was in the wrong too. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. If Spike is being called out for punching her, then she should be called out for her part in the situation as well.

Had she perhaps just let Spike sound off, then the whole situation could've probably been avoided. Faith certainly wasn't the best person to deal with Spike in that moment.

The mutiny never should've happened. It was instigated by Kennedy and Wood who had it in for Buffy because she wouldn't let them insert their opinion or kill Spike respectively. They'd also been brown nosing Faith (and Kennedy openly admits that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge which means her motivation during the mutiny was self-interest and not the good of the team), Spike may have been wrong to lump Faith in with them (because Faith did put Kennedy in her place which is what should've been dome much earlier by Buffy or the other scoobies) however its easy to see why he had that impression.

- Faith almost murdered Xander, there was no rape. It had a sexual element to begin with.

It would probably be more accurate to say Faith sexually assaulted Xander rather than rape. She pushed him on the bed, held him down and straddled him, all whilst he was telling her not to. Also "erotic asphyxiation" is a sexual practice that supposedly gives a man an erection in which case Faith would've felt that as she's strangling him.

Faith didn't rape Buffy, it was a metaphorical violation.

I disagree. It was Buffy's body that Faith was using to have sex. Buffy did not consent to that sex. As a result, technically Riley raped Buffy's body too because he didn't have her consent to have sex with her (though that wasn't his fault because Faith raped him by deception).

A body swap that is not possible in the real world, like memory-wipes and mind-control orbs and the like.

In regards to Riley, the closest thing to the body swap is if he was dating one half of identical twins, and the other twin pretended to be the twin he was dating. That's rape by deception.

In regards to Buffy, just because she wasn't "in" her body doesn't mean that what Faith did wasn't rape. People who've been drugged with rohypnol are "out" of it yet if someone has sex with their body it's still rape. Essentially Buffy was "out" of her body, and Faith was letting people have sex with it.

In regards to the mind control orbs you bring up, if Katrina hadn't woken up and Warren had sex with her, it would still be rape because uncontrolled Katrina was unable to give consent even though controlled Katrina "consented". In the context of the show it's rape and was even explicitly stated to be so.

- With Anya Spike was acting perfectly sane for a while there. If he has enough wherewithal to deceive then he isn't 'half-crazy'.

Spike was clearly getting agitated when Anya cottoned on that he had a soul and he tried to leave but she wasn't letting him.

He knocked Xander out because he wanted to 'go out'? Tell me why Xander had it coming?

Likewise with Anya, and in general, when someone want to leave and someone else is forcefully trying to prevent them, violence does happen. It's the flight or fight instinct kicking in. If "flight" is being prevented, then "fight" normally occurs in order to allow "flight" to happen.

@katmobileAlso the AR is he didn't understand why she said no

I don't think it's a case of Spike no understanding why she said no , but a case of him not believing her. The AR is a horrible scene that never should've happened, however there is an inevitability about it. Spuffy had no boundaries to the point where no wouldn't always mean no. Buffy would tell Spike she'd never sleep with him again, then next moment she's seeking him out for sex. What she said and what she did were often contradictory so why would Spike believe her when she said no in the bathroom as she's said no before and chose to sleep with him anyway.

Buffy kicking him across the bathroom was a literal "no means no" and in that moment Spike understands and is horrified by what he nearly did because he does understand what consent is and we have seen him respecting consent before both with Harmony and Dru.

 

[katmobile]

I'd also like to point out that if Spike is responsible for everything he's done souless then how much more culpable is Faith who committed her sins souled including the near rape/murder of Xander. If we don't allow understanding and mitigating circs for in one case we don't allow it in any - to do otherwise is injustice. To argue someone gets forgiven and someone else doesn't is hypocrisy.

Also my description of Faith's acts in Who Are You as rape aren't original Passion of the Nerd's video guide to that episode describes it as a rape of both Buffy and Riley and he beautifully describes Faith's redemption arc and the reasons for her behaviour in his Five By Five review. So he understands her.

 

[TriBel]

Faith was standing there with her arms folded, how is that provocative towards Spike? She told him to stop being self-righteous and so she gets clocked? Why will no Spike fan say 'yeah, this was kind of a dick-move'. Nope, it's always 'Faith had it coming.' 🙄

That's errant nonsense, normal people don't reply to requests (even aggressive ones) with punching and its kind of a repeating habit with Spike in S7. Please stop saying that its an okay reaction. Casual violence is crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it.

Where does Faith say: "stop being self-righteous"? What she actually says is this.
Faith: Hey. Why don't you take it down a notch or two? The time for speech-giving is over, bat boy.

Just prior to this:

GILES: Uh, the Bringer's dumb. (puts on his glasses)
ANYA: You were expecting, what, a Rhodes Scholar?
GILES: Dumb as in mute.
FAITH: Someone ripped out its tongue.
AMANDA: Oh, gross.

Immediately following:
ANDREW: (speaking for the Bringer) We build weapons to prepare for the coming war... at the farthest edge of town. We are everywhere. We are like the ocean's waves. We watch your efforts and are not scared. We will laugh at you as you die.
Giles takes the Bringer's knife and slits the Bringer's throat with it. The Bringer goes limp.

So, two examples of silence ensured by violent means, which book-end the fight between Spike and Faith. Are we meant to see this incident as "similar to" or "different from"?
She doesn't tell him to stop being righteous. She bars him from speaking - she silences him: "The time for speech-giving is over".

Not only does she take away his right to free speech, she refers to him as Bat-Boy. Was that necessary? "Bat-Boy", not only draws attention to his hybridity but also infantalizes him. Unlike the previous night, she has no excuse for lashing out at him. She knows that Spike is working with them. Giles asks his opinion in the previous episode, and in doing so draws him into the circle (cw. OMWF. GILES: When I want your opinion, Spike, I...will never want your opinion). Without drawing completely on Foucault or Spivak, I'd argue that what Faith inflicts comes very close to "epistemic violence", the practice of othering, the marginalization of those who are distinctly different from the majority ‘us’.

So - did Faith "have it coming", did she deserve it? No - but nor did Spike. And, at a risk of sounding incredibly childish, she started it. He didn't threaten Willow or Giles with violence. They allowed him to say his piece. The closest he got to a personal insult was calling Giles by his proper name. Contextual logic suggests (because he didn't attempt to silence her) that if she'd kept her mouth shut, he'd have walked away. With bad grace sure, but still walked away.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Take it down a notch or two doesn't mean be silent. The time for speech giving is over, take it down a notch or is not the equivalent to silence, you are no longer allowed to speak. Faith didn't silence him; she put him in his place. Just like she put Conner in his place on AtS. Faith doesn't suffer fools.

 

[TriBel]

Take it down a notch or two doesn't mean be silent. The time for speech giving is over, take it down a notch or is not the equivalent to silence, you are no longer allowed to speak. Faith didn't silence him; she put him in his place. Just like she put Conner in his place on AtS. Faith doesn't suffer fools.

I highlighted "The time for speech giving is over" not "Take it down a notch or two". Take it literally - if you give people speech, you allow them to talk. Immediately before Spike walks in, Willow's collecting a few things for a spell to give the gift of speech. Without speech, there's silence. I can easily tie it in to Spivak/Foucault because the spell is in Turkish (see the Shooting Script). Why Turkish? The prologue of Lessons is set in Istanbul, it's a simple enough task to read that scene in terms of Edward Said and Orientalism. Istanbul itself is a metaphor for division and bridging. This is Touched. There's a reason Spike's speech is second hand; there's a reason there's a tape-recorder next to him (disembodied speech). There's a reason the most important scene takes place on the bed - in silence. There's a reason Buffy leaves him a note. This is a season that's about power - language is a source of power. I could bang on all day about Derrida, Levi-Strauss etc. but it would be more boring than it is now and I'd have to use the word phallogocularcentrism -which I hate.

Faith doesn't put him in his place any more than he puts her in hers. He walks out of his own accord.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Take it down a notch or two doesn't mean be silent. The time for speech giving is over, take it down a notch or is not the equivalent to silence, you are no longer allowed to speak. Faith didn't silence him; she put him in his place. Just like she put Conner in his place on AtS. Faith doesn't suffer fools.

I disagree. Spike is mid-rant when Faith cuts him off by telling him "The time for speech giving is over, batboy". She also tells him to "save your lack of breath", both draw attention to his vampirism and are essentially telling him to shut up.

 

[thetopher]

I'd flip the question and say why do Faith fans never acknowledge she pulled a lot of the same shit Spike did, her reasons were different but there are a lot of parallels which is why I like both characters.

Maybe it might have something to do with the fact that people don't make half as many excuses for Faith, and - this is the key- neither does Faith herself.
She never throws her good deeds in other peoples faces in hopes of some sort of leniency, she doesn't even bring up any of the good she has done in the past. She accepts that she hurt others and may never be able to make it up to them. She doesn't expect or demand forgiveness.

Not like Spike at all really.

If you don't care about motive for Seeing Red I think the metaphysics of Who Are You make no essential difference to that situation. Buffy still felt violated and angry towards Faith.

Of course Faith is ENTIRELY responsible for her actions for 'Who Are You', that's never even a question.

And its also worth noting that Buffy gets to confront Faith and get righteously angry with her, she never gets a chance with Spike because of the soul-reveal. When it comes to Faith Buffy's pain is acknowledged and emphasized and dealt with in no less than two episodes.
So no, the two instances aren't really similar. 'Sanctuary' is (partly) about Faith and Buffy, S7 is about Spike's journey of forgiveness, never mind about Buffy, 'cause Buffy used him don't you know...

Spike apologises plenty to Buffy and it's pretty clear early in the season he's torn up over it.

1. Spike never actually gets round to apologizing to Buffy.
2. Spike is plenty broken up about a bunch of stuff it seems, but we don't know how much of that is The First manipulating/torturing him and how much is genuine introspection and regret for 'his' actions.

I mean, am I really supposed to believe that his violent sexual assault on Buffy is MORE important than all the rampant slaughter and mayhem he did during the last century? Isn't that kinda...well, shallow?
Maybe he should've just apologized to Buffy once and then moved on and made it clear how all these other awful things kinda matter more now...

If you mean to Angel well they don't bring out the best in each other and the remark comes from Angel saying Buffy never loved Spike and was thinking of him.

In 'Destiny' Spike punches Angel and starts a fight so I put most of the blame for that whole garbage exchange on Spike. Are we seeing a pattern with Spike throwing the first punch when it's not warranted?

Spike is pretty much all other the place in early season seven even he thinks he's crazy.

In 'Beneath You' Spike is in Buffy's presence under false pretenses. He is basically lying. Therefore I don't buy that he is unstable enough to be completely unaccountable for his actions towards Anya.
He made a choice, did plenty of objectionable things and it should be stated that he needlessly escalated things and made them worse for very little reason.

Xander stands in Spike's way when he's trying to go to figure out what's happening to him. He's scared and desperate. Xander says 'you're going nowhere' but he has to know so he essential hits Xander to get past him and the chip fires and he runs off. It's not great but it's not unprovoked

Is he scared and desperate? Or is he just worried? He's having blackouts and want to finds things out. Bottom line- he has superpowers and Xander is not. Spike could've done...anything else to get past Xander.
I'll bet he runs a lot faster, couldn't he have just shoved Xander aside and run away?
I mean, if Dawn had been the one telling him to stay inside would it have been okay for him to knock her out? Where's the line here, I'm just curious.

I disagree. Faith was antagonising Spike.

So? A lot of characters antagonize each other and don't get punched in the face because that is escalating things. Words are words and violence is something else.

Out of interest do you believe this with all characters? If somebody is antagonizing somebody else then they kinda deserved to be punched?

1. Spike is rightfully angry that the scoobies have betrayed Buffy.

Spike doesn't actually KNOW anything, he just thinks he knows. Case in point he actually attacks the one person one was standing up for Buffy and didn't really want her gone.

2. He's just walked into the situation. Willow tries to feed him a cock and bull story about Buffy deciding to take some time off which he doesn't believe and he quickly susses that they kicked her out.

So you're saying its okay because Spike was in the mood to commit violence then? So its okay that he committed violence because Willow is a crappy liar?

3. Faith, of all people, is telling him to pipe down. Buffy is not a fan of hers and he walks in and finds Faith in charge. As far as he's concerned, she's deliberately usurped Buffy's position as leader.

Why Faith, of all people?
Y'mean Faith who he was, at one point, kinda getting along with? The woman who was nice to him after that first initial misunderstanding? Oh sure, I guess he figured she deserved a good kicking, what with all that evidence he had.

4. Faith makes snide jabs at his vampire status, calling him "bat boy" and telling him to "save his lack of breath".

Faith said mean words because Spike was being aggressive and self-righteous. After all Spike- of all people- was getting on his high horse around Buffy's actual friends who've been helping her out for 7 years.

5. Faith isn't shocked or surprised at being punched but immediately jumps in throwing punches of her own almost instantly. She then taunts Spike about his feelings for Buffy.

So...she had it coming because she didn't clasp her cheek and say 'how dare you?' Please.
I'm of the opinion that slayer probably would expect the possibility of violence in most confrontational situations, even if said violence was deserved or not.
Basically Faith is used to being hit, so she hits back accordingly if its deserved, and Spike sure as hell deserved it.

Spike may not have been right to punch her, but equally she was in the wrong too. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Nope, you can't use the things she said AFTER to justify him hitting her. That's not how it works. The person who starts it is the one that's at fault. If somebody punches me and I then call them a bad name they cannot then say 'that person called me a bad name so I was right to punch him!'

It would probably be more accurate to say Faith sexually assaulted Xander rather than rape.

Attempted murder trumps sexual assault, so the assault is kinda irrelevant in this case.

I disagree. It was Buffy's body that Faith was using to have sex. Buffy did not consent to that sex.

Buffy wasn't even present, it wasn't her body a the time. Using the term rape- the description of a serious real life crime- in this instance seems sketchy.
If consent is an issue then Willow is a straight-up rapist as well.

As a result, technically Riley raped Buffy's body too because he didn't have her consent to have sex with her (though that wasn't his fault because Faith raped him by deception).

This is like saying that Darla raped Liam/Angel whilst she was having sex with Angelus. Liam's soul wasn't even present and he couldn't give consent. Actually its not as bad given that Buffy had no memory of the event.

In regards to Riley, the closest thing to the body swap is if he was dating one half of identical twins, and the other twin pretended to be the twin he was dating. That's rape by deception.

Sure, this is fairly accurate, legally speaking. But I still think its a false equivalency to bring this up in regards to Spike's various red flag actions.

Spike was clearly getting agitated when Anya cottoned on that he had a soul and he tried to leave but she wasn't letting him.

And so he punched her across the room? Yeah, that's a reasonable response.

Likewise with Anya, and in general, when someone want to leave and someone else is forcefully trying to prevent them, violence does happen.

But this is a pattern of behavior that Spike exhibits; he's frustrated or angry or whatever and he just....punches people. Why is this okay?
Why is it okay for him to unjustifiably go around smacking people about and starting fights without sufficient provocation?
Is it not, y'know, a character flaw? Because apparently y'all are cool with it. Weird.

Faith who committed her sins souled including the near rape/murder of Xander. If we don't allow understanding and mitigating circs for in one case we don't allow it in any - to do otherwise is injustice. To argue someone gets forgiven and someone else doesn't is hypocrisy.

But that's what happens all the time on the show. Anya is forgiven, Willow is forgiven, Spike is forgiven, Faith is not. Hypocrisy.

Also my description of Faith's acts in Who Are You as rape aren't original Passion of the Nerd's video guide to that episode describes it as a rape of both Buffy and Riley

I happen to disagree with POTN's opinion on this, since its just that, an opinion, not an absolute truth. #sorryPOTN

She doesn't tell him to stop being righteous. She bars him from speaking - she silences him

What? No she doesn't, she tells him to stop making an angry, self-righteous speech. She doesn't say 'shut up', but 'tone it down will 'ya?'

Btw if somebody tells you to shut up would you think it was cool to sock them in the jaw.

So - did Faith "have it coming", did she deserve it? No - but nor did Spike. And, at a risk of sounding incredibly childish, she started it.

He PUNCHED her. Jesus effing Christ. What the actual hell do you mean that Faith started it? Spike literally started it with very little provocation.


That's it, I'm really done now. Apparently there are people (too many it seems) who think that if somebody says 'turn it down a notch, jerk' then its entirely correct for them to respond with violence.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I mean, am I really supposed to believe that his violent sexual assault on Buffy is MORE important than all the rampant slaughter and mayhem he did during the last century? Isn't that kinda...well, shallow?

In the world of tv, rape is worse than murder. It's the "rape is a special kind of evil" trope which normally comes with the "moral event horizon".

So? A lot of characters antagonize each other and don't get punched in the face because that is escalating things. Words are words and violence is something else.

Really? So if a character was to call Wood or Forrest or Rona or Nikki the N word and they then punched that character in retaliation, you're saying they're 100% in the wrong for doing so because "words are words". Faith called Spike "bat boy" which is a distinct jab at the fact Spike is a vampire, just like the N word is a jab at someone being black.

And before you start in on the whole "calling Spike "bat boy" is nowhere near as bad as calling a black person the N word", I'm not saying it is, I'm merely using it as an example of an insult based around someone's race. Spike is a vampire, "bat boy" is an insult aimed at that fact. Also Faith tells him to "Save your lack of breath", again it's an insult aimed at Spike's vampirism.

Out of interest do you believe this with all characters? If somebody is antagonizing somebody else then they kinda deserved to be punched?

If the character in question is Kennedy, then the answer is a resounding yes.

What you do have to remember in Season 7 I that the stakes are heightened, everyone is stressed and short tempered. Touched is near the very end of the season, the First is baring down on the group. Spike comes back and finds out that Buffy has been kicked out of her home in the middle of the apocalypse by her friends and that Faith has taken charge. If Faith had let Spike have his rant, the situation would've likely been avoided as Spike would've said his piece then gone looking for Buffy. Faith jumps in on him and basically expects him to fall into line. The line that caused the punch was "save your lack of breath". Not only is it a second jab at Spike's vampire status, but is also telling him to shut up.

Spike doesn't actually KNOW anything, he just thinks he knows. Case in point he actually attacks the one person one was standing up for Buffy and didn't really want her gone.

So you're saying its okay because Spike was in the mood to commit violence then? So its okay that he committed violence because Willow is a crappy liar?

It's not rocket science. Willow comes up with the crappy lie about Buffy deciding to take time off; when Spike doesn't believe her, Xander chips in saying the group decided. THAT is what kicked of Spike's rant, and Faith rather than letting him say his piece about how wrong it was to kick Buffy out, starts antagonising him despite her not agreeing to Buffy's removal.

Why Faith, of all people?
Y'mean Faith who he was, at one point, kinda getting along with? The woman who was nice to him after that first initial misunderstanding? Oh sure, I guess he figured she deserved a good kicking, what with all that evidence he had.

Because Faith and Buffy have bad history. The scoobies BETRAYED Buffy, they can only betray her if she trusted them. Faith is then there acting as top dog. What's to say that Faith hadn't just pretended to be nice just so she could usurp Buffy's position?

Spike had limited evidence but that evidence pointed to foul play.

Faith said mean words because Spike was being aggressive and self-righteous. After all Spike- of all people- was getting on his high horse around Buffy's actual friends who've been helping her out for 7 years.

You mean the same friends who agreed to Buffy being kicked out. Heaven forfend they be called out on their shitty behaviour.

So...she had it coming because she didn't clasp her cheek and say 'how dare you?' Please.
I'm of the opinion that slayer probably would expect the possibility of violence in most confrontational situations, even if said violence was deserved or not.
Basically Faith is used to being hit, so she hits back accordingly if its deserved, and Spike sure as hell deserved it.

So what you're saying is that when Faith is faced with a confrontation, she just escalates the situation but she has no blame whatsoever. Surely, as leader, it's her job to rise above it. Faith lost any moral high ground she may have had the moment she punched Spike back.

Nope, you can't use the things she said AFTER to justify him hitting her. That's not how it works. The person who starts it is the one that's at fault. If somebody punches me and I then call them a bad name they cannot then say 'that person called me a bad name so I was right to punch him!'

Faith WAS the one that started it. Spike was ranting, Faith told him to pipe down and antagonised him by using names like "bat boy" and phrases like "save your lack of breath" (both jabs at Spike's vampirism), Spike escalated the situation then Faith escalated it further both by hitting him back and taunting him about his feelings for Buffy.

At no point does Faith attempt to DIFFUSE the situation.

Attempted murder trumps sexual assault, so the assault is kinda irrelevant in this case.

Not in tv land it doesn't.

Buffy wasn't even present, it wasn't her body a the time. Using the term rape- the description of a serious real life crime- in this instance seems sketchy.
If consent is an issue then Willow is a straight-up rapist as well.

Buffy's body is Buffy's body. Unconsciousness can be classed as someone not being "present", is it okay for someone to then puppet their body into having sex with someone?

If you had a house and whilst you were away someone used that house to have parties, isn't that house still your house despite you not being "present"?

Face it, Faith raped both Buffy and Riley and the only reason she manages to avoid the rape is a special kind of evil trope is because the writers never acknowledged it as such, they just swept the moral implications under the carpet in favour of cheap drama.

This is like saying that Darla raped Liam/Angel whilst she was having sex with Angelus. Liam's soul wasn't even present and he couldn't give consent. Actually its not as bad given that Buffy had no memory of the event.

1. It all depends on your view of the soul. Is it like an alternative personality like Jekyll and Hyde, or is it just a piece of a person that gives them a moral conscience eg are people (and vampires) like jigsaw puzzles and vampires just have a couple of pieces missing eg a soul, a heartbeat, a reflection.

And so he punched her across the room? Yeah, that's a reasonable response.

But this is a pattern of behavior that Spike exhibits; he's frustrated or angry or whatever and he just....punches people. Why is this okay?
Why is it okay for him to unjustifiably go around smacking people about and starting fights without sufficient provocation?
Is it not, y'know, a character flaw? Because apparently y'all are cool with it. Weird.

There was provocation in the Faith fight.

Spike's behaviour was quite erratic in early Season 7 because of the soul. It's possible he did have moments of shallow lucidity but they didn't last. Spike was getting agitated and trying to leave and Anya just kept preventing him multiple times.

By your logic Buffy has the same character flaw because she would smack Spike around with no provocation.

But that's what happens all the time on the show. Anya is forgiven, Willow is forgiven, Spike is forgiven, Faith is not. Hypocrisy.

Faith is forgiven on Angel and the Scoobies are forgiving of her as well. Buffy is a little iffy with her but that is to be expected. She still allows Faith to live in her house though so there is some forgiveness there.

That's it, I'm really done now. Apparently there are people (too many it seems) who think that if somebody says 'turn it down a notch, jerk' then its entirely correct for them to respond with violence.

Chill out.

 

[GraceK]

Here’s my reading of that scene and I’m gonna go out on a limb here and admit I think it’s actually pretty unbiased.

I genuinely feel that when Spike comes back with his information, the scoobies are feeling pretty guilty about what transpired with Buffy in Empty Places. Now that the anger has died down, and she is gone, they are left to deal with the aftermath and the residual emotions and guilt. Faith is actually the only one who is the most unattached to the situation, having come late to this apocalypse, doesn’t have the built up resentment towards Buffy that the potentials and the scoobies have felt all season long. She is the one who followed Buffy out the door, was the first one who made the suggestion to check up on her, and who is seeing with clear eyes the fact that Buffy might really need some support because unlike the others, she herself is a Slayer and gets her on a level the others don’t, even though they have been enemies. She understands the feeling of being an outsider and is struggling with her own sense of self loathing and guilt.

So when Spike comes in, and asks what happened, Willow and Xander give lame ass excuses. They aren’t honest at all. Spike sees the bullshit and becomes the audience surrogate, and starts tearing into them, voicing all the venom and anger and self recrimination they are all feeling, and what we the audience are feeling. Faith I think, attempts to DEFLECT and DEFUSE the situation. She knows the scoobies feel like crap, she feels like crap, and she decides to take the brunt of his anger on herself by antagonizing him. Spike, being Spike, is happy to oblige, because he can’t morally lash out physically at Willow, or Xander or Giles or Kennedy. ( gods I wish he would hit Kennedy!) Faith knows he needs an outlet, she herself needs an outlet, and so they fight for a few minutes . It actually does remedy the situation because it gets him to leave, gives Faith a chance to take out some anger, and gives the scoobies a momentary get out of jail free card on their guilt.

That’s my interpretation anyway.

 

[katmobile]

Maybe it might have something to do with the fact that people don't make half as many excuses for Faith, and - this is the key- neither does Faith herself.
She never throws her good deeds in other peoples faces in hopes of some sort of leniency, she doesn't even bring up any of the good she has done in the past. She accepts that she hurt others and may never be able to make it up to them. She doesn't expect or demand forgiveness.

Not like Spike at all really.



Of course Faith is ENTIRELY responsible for her actions for 'Who Are You', that's never even a question.

And its also worth noting that Buffy gets to confront Faith and get righteously angry with her, she never gets a chance with Spike because of the soul-reveal. When it comes to Faith Buffy's pain is acknowledged and emphasized and dealt with in no less than two episodes.
So no, the two instances aren't really similar. 'Sanctuary' is (partly) about Faith and Buffy, S7 is about Spike's journey of forgiveness, never mind about Buffy, 'cause Buffy used him don't you know...

1. Spike never actually gets round to apologizing to Buffy.
2. Spike is plenty broken up about a bunch of stuff it seems, but we don't know how much of that is The First manipulating/torturing him and how much is genuine introspection and regret for 'his' actions.

I mean, am I really supposed to believe that his violent sexual assault on Buffy is MORE important than all the rampant slaughter and mayhem he did during the last century? Isn't that kinda...well, shallow?
Maybe he should've just apologized to Buffy once and then moved on and made it clear how all these other awful things kinda matter more now...



In 'Destiny' Spike punches Angel and starts a fight so I put most of the blame for that whole garbage exchange on Spike. Are we seeing a pattern with Spike throwing the first punch when it's not warranted?



In 'Beneath You' Spike is in Buffy's presence under false pretenses. He is basically lying. Therefore I don't buy that he is unstable enough to be completely unaccountable for his actions towards Anya.
He made a choice, did plenty of objectionable things and it should be stated that he needlessly escalated things and made them worse for very little reason.



Is he scared and desperate? Or is he just worried? He's having blackouts and want to finds things out. Bottom line- he has superpowers and Xander is not. Spike could've done...anything else to get past Xander.
I'll bet he runs a lot faster, couldn't he have just shoved Xander aside and run away?
I mean, if Dawn had been the one telling him to stay inside would it have been okay for him to knock her out? Where's the line here, I'm just curious.



So? A lot of characters antagonize each other and don't get punched in the face because that is escalating things. Words are words and violence is something else.

Out of interest do you believe this with all characters? If somebody is antagonizing somebody else then they kinda deserved to be punched?



Spike doesn't actually KNOW anything, he just thinks he knows. Case in point he actually attacks the one person one was standing up for Buffy and didn't really want her gone.



So you're saying its okay because Spike was in the mood to commit violence then? So its okay that he committed violence because Willow is a crappy liar?



Why Faith, of all people?
Y'mean Faith who he was, at one point, kinda getting along with? The woman who was nice to him after that first initial misunderstanding? Oh sure, I guess he figured she deserved a good kicking, what with all that evidence he had.



Faith said mean words because Spike was being aggressive and self-righteous. After all Spike- of all people- was getting on his high horse around Buffy's actual friends who've been helping her out for 7 years.



So...she had it coming because she didn't clasp her cheek and say 'how dare you?' Please.
I'm of the opinion that slayer probably would expect the possibility of violence in most confrontational situations, even if said violence was deserved or not.
Basically Faith is used to being hit, so she hits back accordingly if its deserved, and Spike sure as hell deserved it.



Nope, you can't use the things she said AFTER to justify him hitting her. That's not how it works. The person who starts it is the one that's at fault. If somebody punches me and I then call them a bad name they cannot then say 'that person called me a bad name so I was right to punch him!'



Attempted murder trumps sexual assault, so the assault is kinda irrelevant in this case.



Buffy wasn't even present, it wasn't her body a the time. Using the term rape- the description of a serious real life crime- in this instance seems sketchy.
If consent is an issue then Willow is a straight-up rapist as well.



This is like saying that Darla raped Liam/Angel whilst she was having sex with Angelus. Liam's soul wasn't even present and he couldn't give consent. Actually its not as bad given that Buffy had no memory of the event.



Sure, this is fairly accurate, legally speaking. But I still think its a false equivalency to bring this up in regards to Spike's various red flag actions.



And so he punched her across the room? Yeah, that's a reasonable response.



But this is a pattern of behavior that Spike exhibits; he's frustrated or angry or whatever and he just....punches people. Why is this okay?
Why is it okay for him to unjustifiably go around smacking people about and starting fights without sufficient provocation?
Is it not, y'know, a character flaw? Because apparently y'all are cool with it. Weird.



But that's what happens all the time on the show. Anya is forgiven, Willow is forgiven, Spike is forgiven, Faith is not. Hypocrisy.



I happen to disagree with POTN's opinion on this, since its just that, an opinion, not an absolute truth. #sorryPOTN



What? No she doesn't, she tells him to stop making an angry, self-righteous speech. She doesn't say 'shut up', but 'tone it down will 'ya?'

Btw if somebody tells you to shut up would you think it was cool to sock them in the jaw.



He PUNCHED her. Jesus effing Christ. What the actual hell do you mean that Faith started it? Spike literally started it with very little provocation.


That's it, I'm really done now. Apparently there are people (too many it seems) who think that if somebody says 'turn it down a notch, jerk' then its entirely correct for them to respond with violence.

Since nothing other than Spike is the antichrist and yes dear you're totally right is going to acceptable it's probably for the best. Except if you really think Spike has no guilt go and watch effing Damage. He can't win if he expresses guilt over Buffy he's prioritizing her over the countless innocents he killed in the past if not he doesn't care about her. We never see Faith seem to regret Xander or apologise to him does she not care? I believe the answer if yes at least in the first case. Also if you can dismiss someone's opinion as just an opinion despite others sharing it I can do exactly the same to you - Faith isn't some delicate little flower she's a tough girl who sometimes talks with her fists. She knew what she was doing and was prepared for the consequences. Also if we defend Spike it's because we're pretty such of everyone treating him like the worst with not one redeaming quality sure he has faults but there are reasons just as there are with Faith and Xander and Angel. Also you've ignoring that I have stated repeatedly that she is trying to defend the group partially. You see there are such things as shades of grey and nuance and Faith can be worshipped without her always been superior. All bigging up your dog at the expense of someone else does is make the people who like that character dislike you and sometimes, although not in this case I love Faith too much for that to happen although it is perhaps at times just his dogged saving of her that has stopped it happening with Angel although the fab Lani Diane Rich helped a lot, they can end up disliking the character you epouse so you hurt your own cause.

 

[Izzie]

I saw this thread and thought it was started like two years ago.... 😅 But I guess not, nine pages of discussion in a matter of few weeks... that is just WOW. I'm sure it's not all about the "Angel or Spike for Buffy", as most thread tend to go off topic at many times.

But anyways, I have never understood (and this includes every show ever that has the "which one should said character end up with) why some fans feel the need to prove their own point by bashing the other view down. I does not make your view more important or more right. Now of course, I get that this is a discussion board, and we all have different views on matters and everyone has the right to their own opinion, naturally. But sometimes it's just seems so unnecessary to complety tear down Angel if you are team Spuffy, or completely tear down Spike if you are team Spike. Maybe, it's my problem but I just don't get it.

I am #teamSpuffy till my last breath, as I pointed out on another thread just recently and Angel isn't my favourite character at all, but I sill see the beauty of Bangel, I can understand why so many are team Bangel. Trust me, I cried an ocean to my livingroom floor at the end of Season 2. I mean I was invested in these two... Like Ross and Rachel invested, like Jack and Rose invested 😄 .... despite being somewhat frustrated at Angel some times, I mean he was a bit doomy and gloomy.

And well, then Spike happened. But despite me sitting firmly on the Spuffy bandwagon, I certainly don't think they necessarily were a perfect match. And I do believe that when it comes to Buffy she does love Angel more. And this comes from someone who has not read the comics, I am aware by reading this forum, that Buffy and Spike do end up together, but are now broken up (I don't know...) But anyways, these are my thoughts on seeing just Btws, I have not watched Ats yet.

To me, Buffy and Angel are like this perfect, tragic, great love song. You know, how like the greatest love songs are the ones that are also the most sad. They want to be together, but can't and it's all just this big heartache. It grand, it's huge, it's the first love with so many feelings and emotions. The simple fact that they can't be together is also the reason (for me, not saying this is gospel and everyone should think this) what makes them both love each other till the day they die. They are not given the chance to be in a normal relationship, so how do they know if in fact they are the great loves of eachothers lives? There is that neverending yearning for each other always for that simple reason. But they both have to move on, and despite all this, I do think that bot are capable of loving other people.

So now Spike, I have to admit that I get offended when some (don't bite me, I said some) have this idea that if you are Spuffy fan then you just love S6 and Spuffy in it. That a Spuffy fan is just so happy that they are together, they don't see the obvious problems. I see it, I know there is probably some fans who just think that everything is so perfect, but I'm not one of those. If fact, I was extremely dissapointed in the way things went in S6 with them. So as a member of the Spuffy team, to me in regards to Spuffy, S7 was important. I don't like S7 as a whole, I hated the potentials, the general rush of the season and don't even get me started on Kennedy. Just get out of my tv screen, Kennedy!!! But yeah, as for Spuffy S7 is needed, cause it would have been awful, if things have been left like it was in S6.

I do not agree with those who said, that Spike was not in love with Buffy, but ONLY obsessed. Yes, he was obsessed too, not gonna deny that and some of the things he did was just insane and even sick, but I do believe 100% that Spike's feelings for Buffy were real. And I want to believe that Buffy meant in the series finale when she said she loved him. I know there is a big debate on that. Was she in love? I don't know. Did she love Spike as much as Angel? No, I don't think so. But I believe she learnt to love and care about him during S7, and not just because she felt sorry for him and wanted to help. Before S7 no I don't think Buffy loved him, she wanted him and was sexually attracted to him. Allthough, having said all that I do find it really weird that early S7 Buffy says to Willow "Why does everybody think that I'm still in love with Spike". Why did the writers choose to make her say it that way? Cause still in love kinda means that at some point you have been in love? 🤔 I don't know, maybe the writers are just deliberately playing mindgames with Spuffy fans.

Oh, and when Spike at the end of S7 says "I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. " That I believe, and I believe that Spike knows the real Buffy a lot better than Angel. That of course has nothing to do with who loves who the most and more and whatever. But it's just what I believe.

But in any case, the point of my big rambling here was, that yeah, I don't get why so often this "Bangel or Spuffy" turns into this heated competition where one side feels the need to put down the other, in order for their opinion to be more valid.

I'm #teamSpuffy bur I still see the beauty in Bangel.

 

[thetopher]

In the world of tv, rape is worse than murder.

It's not worse than mass murder though. I agree that its rather shallow trope.

Really? So if a character was to call Wood or Forrest or Rona or Nikki the N word and they then punched that character in retaliation, you're saying they're 100% in the wrong for doing so because "words are words". Faith called Spike "bat boy" which is a distinct jab at the fact Spike is a vampire, just like the N word is a jab at someone being black.

This is a rather silly comparison isn't it? Vampires are not a race and vampire prejudice has never been a 'thing' on the show.
Using emotive racial language which has a history of brutality and oppression behind it is in no way the same as punning off of vampire nature or calling somebody 'bat-boy' (like 'vampire side-kick').
The equivalency is rather weak and it seems is being used as justification for Spike losing his temper.

In fact this seems less like Spike lost his temper and more like 'Faith had it coming for mouthing off'.

What you do have to remember in Season 7 I that the stakes are heightened, everyone is stressed and short tempered. Touched is near the very end of the season, the First is baring down on the group.

It doesn't excuse Spike's actions, just like it doesn't excuse the Scoobies for the 'mutiny' or Wood's for trying to off Spike, or Buffy's for also punching Faith for no reason. Context gives understanding to actions but it doesn't 100% excuse them.

I understand why Spike acted the way he did, it is perfectly in character for him to do this since he's done it many times in the past. It's still crappy though.

The line that caused the punch was "save your lack of breath". Not only is it a second jab at Spike's vampire status, but is also telling him to shut up.

Actually 'save your breathe' is a fairly mild was of telling somebody to shut up. And Faith wasn't telling Spike to shut up specifically, just calm the hell down.

Because Faith and Buffy have bad history. The scoobies BETRAYED Buffy, they can only betray her if she trusted them. Faith is then there acting as top dog. What's to say that Faith hadn't just pretended to be nice just so she could usurp Buffy's position?

Spike had limited evidence but that evidence pointed to foul play.

Spike has NO EVIDENCE which is kinda the problem, he jumps to conclusions and attacks the wrong person.
He might have a limited understanding of the Buffy/Faith history, but we don't know how much, given he didn't know the specifics of the body-swap.

Basically jumping to a conclusion is not 'okay' just because it is maybe understandable.

You mean the same friends who agreed to Buffy being kicked out. Heaven forfend they be called out on their shitty behaviour.

It's just...I'm considering the source here. This is a guy who's gleefully tried to kill Buffy in the past and has caused her not an inconsiderable amount of pain and stress even when he was her ally.
And he's lecturing her actual friends about betrayal and loyalty? It's rich is what it is. If this were S5 and somehow Faith were the one making the speech then I'd have the same reaction. Here, Spike doesn't have the right but the writers want their little 'white knight' scene so here we have it.

So what you're saying is that when Faith is faced with a confrontation, she just escalates the situation but she has no blame whatsoever.

If Faith had hit Spike to shut him up, that would've been some sort of equivalency and she would be the crappy one.
Faith is perhaps being too dismissive because of her own guilt about what happened to Buffy- as she later admits to Wood- but that's the entire extent of her culpability.

As it was Spike was acting like a bully, barging in and shouting and then lashing out. Faith standing up to a bully is not a bad thing.

Although I agree that, if Faith saw herself as a leader in this particular grouping (and I don't think she does here) then she should've handled the deescalating better.
It's still almost entirely on Spike though

Faith lost any moral high ground she may have had the moment she punched Spike back.

No. Stop trying to make Spike blameless.
Whilst I'd say that Faith also has a temper and has, in the past, lashed out with very little provocation, she does a pretty good job of reigning herself in until being attacked.
See, that's what we call character progression.

Faith WAS the one that started it.

No. Talking or telling someone to shut up is not grounds for that someone to to punch you in the face. In this land or TV land or wherever.
An argument is an argument and a physical fight is something different.

Buffy's body is Buffy's body. Unconsciousness can be classed as someone not being "present"

Buffy is no longer in her body. She is Faith, Faith is Buffy. That's kinda the point of the story. Faith 'becomes' Buffy.
Body-swaps have their own rules, like with Amy and her mom or Angel and Marcus in 'Carpe Noctem'. In that episode Angel does not make out with Lilah, Marcus does. Angel is not there.

Face it, Faith raped both Buffy and Riley

Again, no. And I disagree that its handled badly or swept under the rug- well the Riley stuff maybe. We are told and shown how Buffy feels, how she copes (this is the focus) and she later gets to confront the person who victimized her.
She never gets to do that after Spike sexually assaults her, that's the tragedy. It's all about him and his struggle, but that's a separate issue.

There was provocation in the Faith fight.

Whoa, I guess Spike is easily provoked into acts of brutal violence huh?

Spike's behaviour was quite erratic

Yeah, Spike's always 'erratic' or kinda pissed or provoked or subjected to vampire bigotry and the only way he can respond is to lash out, poor guy. /sarc.


But there is a pattern emerging. Spike is blameless, he can't help it, he had no choice, its not his fault. There really isn't a discussion to be had is there?

By your logic Buffy has the same character flaw because she would smack Spike around with no provocation.

And by your logic Spike always has it coming and Buffy is blameless because she's provoked.

But actually I do have a problem with Buffy punching Spike in SOME instances, depending on context. In S5? not a tall, he's a back-stabbing creep and has it coming. But when she hits him in S6 and he's more or less a proven ally then its very not okay.
When Buffy strikes Angel in 'Sanctuary' its not okay.
When Faith punches Willow in 'Choices', despite being 'provoked' and called actual names, its not okay, its crappy and evil.

Not just Spike that is held to that standard, other characters are as well.

Faith is forgiven on Angel and the Scoobies are forgiving of her as well.

Only Wesley forgives Faith I guess, since they work together. Angel and her buried the hatchet long ago.
But on Buffy its less cut an dry compared to all the others I mentioned. If we consider the comics then its not even a debate, she isn't.

 

[Btvs fan]

@thetopher Ie with Faith it's a case if 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other. Both are right and neither is blameless in that instance.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

It's not worse than mass murder though. I agree that its rather shallow trope.

But it still applies.

This is a rather silly comparison isn't it? Vampires are not a race and vampire prejudice has never been a 'thing' on the show.
Using emotive racial language which has a history of brutality and oppression behind it is in no way the same as punning off of vampire nature or calling somebody 'bat-boy' (like 'vampire side-kick').
The equivalency is rather weak and it seems is being used as justification for Spike losing his temper.

You must've missed this part of the post you quoted:

"And before you start in on the whole "calling Spike "bat boy" is nowhere near as bad as calling a black person the N word", I'm not saying it is, I'm merely using it as an example of an insult based around someone's race. Spike is a vampire, "bat boy" is an insult aimed at that fact. Also Faith tells him to "Save your lack of breath", again it's an insult aimed at Spike's vampirism."

Vampires are their own species of demon separate from other demons. Other demons look down on them because they're not "pure" but are hybrids.

Actually 'save your breathe' is a fairly mild was of telling somebody to shut up. And Faith wasn't telling Spike to shut up specifically, just calm the hell down.

Just because Faith didn't use the specific words "shut up" doesn't mean that she wasn't telling him to shut up eg telling someone to "leave the room" is just a politer way of telling them to piss off. She may be feeling guilty which is why she doesn't want Spike going off on one about the thing they're all feeling bad about, but then again she allowed the mutiny to happen. She may not have been supportive of it but at the same time she didn't try and take it off the table.

Spike has NO EVIDENCE which is kinda the problem, he jumps to conclusions and attacks the wrong person.
He might have a limited understanding of the Buffy/Faith history, but we don't know how much, given he didn't know the specifics of the body-swap.

Again it's not rocket science. Buffy's not there and Willow's tried to feed Spike a cock and bull story about Buffy deciding to take some time out. Xander eventually reveals that the group "decided" Buffy needed to take time out aka kicked her out.

It's just...I'm considering the source here. This is a guy who's gleefully tried to kill Buffy in the past and has caused her not an inconsiderable amount of pain and stress even when he was her ally.
And he's lecturing her actual friends about betrayal and loyalty? It's rich is what it is. If this were S5 and somehow Faith were the one making the speech then I'd have the same reaction. Here, Spike doesn't have the right but the writers want their little 'white knight' scene so here we have it.

As Buffy's "actual friends", the scoobies should be watching her back, not stabbing her in it. Spike essentially called the scoobies out on what shitty friends they'd been.

Faith is perhaps being too dismissive because of her own guilt about what happened to Buffy- as she later admits to Wood- but that's the entire extent of her culpability.

So because Faith feels crappy about the mutiny she participated in (and she did participate even if she wasn't 100% behind it), Spike isn't allowed to express his feelings on the matter? Is that what you're saying? Had Faith let Spike say his piece, the whole situation would've likely been avoided. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

As it was Spike was acting like a bully, barging in and shouting and then lashing out. Faith standing up to a bully is not a bad thing.

Except Spike wasn't bullying and Faith wasn't "standing up to a bully", she was trying to stop someone from expressing their view just because she didn't like it. The only time Faith remotely stood up to a bully was when she put Kennedy in her place but even then, she didn't do that when Kennedy was stabbing Buffy in the back. Faith only takes action when something affects herself.

Although I agree that, if Faith saw herself as a leader in this particular grouping (and I don't think she does here) then she should've handled the deescalating better.

Faith is considered the leader. It's not a role she's comfortable with, but she still has to do it.

No. Stop trying to make Spike blameless.

I'm not trying to make Spike blameless. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Stop trying to make Faith blameless.

Buffy is no longer in her body. She is Faith, Faith is Buffy. That's kinda the point of the story. Faith 'becomes' Buffy.
Body-swaps have their own rules, like with Amy and her mom or Angel and Marcus in 'Carpe Noctem'. In that episode Angel does not make out with Lilah, Marcus does. Angel is not there.

Disagree. It is still Buffy's body regardless of whether Buffy is present or not. Your house is still your house, even when you're not in it.

Yeah, Spike's always 'erratic' or kinda pissed or provoked or subjected to vampire bigotry and the only way he can respond is to lash out, poor guy. /sarc.

And Faith is never at fault and does nothing to antagonise situations. My god, why is she not a saint?!

 

[thetopher]

Vampires are their own species of demon separate from other demons. Other demons look down on them because they're not "pure" but are hybrids.

I saw your caveat, but by bringing up the race issue you ARE making some sort of equivalency and its a false one. There is no such a thing as vampire prejudice on the show inregards to humans and Spike has not been shown to be 'sensitive' to his vampire nature. He's proud that he's a vampire.

Just because Faith didn't use the specific words "shut up" doesn't mean that she wasn't telling him to shut up eg telling someone to "leave the room" is just a politer way of telling them to piss off.

Firstly, Faith did actually let Spike speak for a good while and secondly she used multiple phases; 'turn it down a notch' and the like.
You can pick whichever you like to support your POV put she wasn't being bigoted and she wasn't picking a fight, that's the main thing. She was not asking to be hit.

She may be feeling guilty which is why she doesn't want Spike going off on one about the thing they're all feeling bad about, but then again she allowed the mutiny to happen. She may not have been supportive of it but at the same time she didn't try and take it off the table.

Faith was the one who actually tried to deescalate that particular confrontation- nobody else did- and also went out after Buffy. That's a lot given that she is an outside in this instance.

Again it's not rocket science. Buffy's not there and Willow's tried to feed Spike a cock and bull story about Buffy deciding to take some time out. Xander eventually reveals that the group "decided" Buffy needed to take time out aka kicked her out.

Buffy left, of her own choice, because the choices she made and has been making. Spike's 'deductions' are ill-informed and wrong on almost every level, as has previously been stated. It might not be rocket science but its clearly beyond his ability to comprehend.

As Buffy's "actual friends", the scoobies should be watching her back, not stabbing her in it.

Or, to use less emotive language, the decided not to follow her on yet another suicide mission against an unbeatable foe they still knew nothing about. Hardly backstabbing since everything was out in the open. Buffy called the meeting, got defensive when people refused to 'fall into line', and then left because her pride wouldn't let her work with others.

So because Faith feels crappy about the mutiny she participated in (and she did participate even if she wasn't 100% behind it), Spike isn't allowed to express his feelings on the matter? Is that what you're saying?

Spike can say what he likes but doesn't get to punch people because he's angry. That's pretty much what I'm saying this whole time. The circumstance that led to Spike doing it are mostly irrelevant since he's does this sort of thing before and will do it again in the future.

(Souled) Spike hitting first and without good reason is a thing he's done to multiple characters. Whilst others might do it once, under some extreme circumstance or other, he does it A LOT.

Had Faith let Spike say his piece, the whole situation would've likely been avoided.

Not really, Spike was getting himself more and more worked up as the scene goes along.

Except Spike wasn't bullying and Faith wasn't "standing up to a bully", she was trying to stop someone from expressing their view just because she didn't like it.

Agree to disagree, the most agressive person in this scene is by far Spike. Everyone else is quiet and quickly cowed by his anger. Spike is also the only one besides Faith who has superpowers and a history of violence. He's also been pretty unstable for most of the year unless Buffy was around, what with all the blackouts, rages and murder, and now she's gone.
He's an unpredictable, shouty bully.

The only time Faith remotely stood up to a bully was when she put Kennedy in her place but even then, she didn't do that when Kennedy was stabbing Buffy in the back. Faith only takes action when something affects herself.

Actually Faith did stand up for Buffy- she told the Potentials that Buffy was the one they wanted, their leader, that she was not.
She simply said that Buffy needed a break (true) but then Buffy started in on Faith and so it didn't last.
Go watch the scene again, Faith standing up for Buffy is there, but she wasn't going to get between Buffy and her friends/family, perhaps she thinks that she hadn't got the right given all that history.

Your characterization of both Faith (and even Kennedy) in those instances is deeply unfair.

Faith is considered the leader.

To the Potentials, not to Giles and the others. In that scene in the kitchen everyone is pretty equal. Dawn, Willow and Giles are busily discussing the Bringer and what to do to get info. Then Faith lets Willow try and explain to Spike what happened, etc.

I'm not trying to make Spike blameless. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Stop trying to make Faith blameless.

I've already said that Faith could've handled things slightly better, but that's just analysis, not assigning blame.
I gotta say, for somebody who calls Riley abusive and counts the number of times he grabs Buffy, you seem pretty okay with Spike lashing out whenever he feels like it.

And Faith is never at fault and does nothing to antagonise situations. My god, why is she not a saint?!

Chill out.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

It's Spike and Faith—two angry super heroes using each other as punching bags. I am sure Faith was happy to have a brawl. Rag-dolling Spike is more fun than petty and complicated group politics.