I don't like Tillow...

[thetopher]

Tara had spent a year lying to Willow and used a spell to cover those lies

That should be seen as a betrayal, too

Tara was clearly a victim of childhood abuse which should contextualize her actions as more sympathetic/understandable to any reasonable person.
Plus she never did anything remotely similar; it was one bad choice- that inadvertently put people in danger- that was never repeated; again sympathetic.

Willow did many, many questionable things, some of the worst being to Tara, and very rarely seemed to learn from her mistakes, she did them over and over and others where the ones that suffered. Remember that the 'karmic consequences' of Willow's actions in S6 is the death of Tara, kind of a cop-out that Tara pays for Willow's sins.

Not that Tara doesn't have character flaws; for example excusing or rationalizing your own and other people's (romantic) bad choices is actually really bad, but most don't call her out for it.

I wouldn't say Kennedy was Willow's 'punishment'. Willow didn't deserve to be with anyone, considering her behavior in her last relationship.

I was mostly kidding. Idk I don't mind Kennedy as a character but I don't care for her romantic pursuit of Willow. *shrug*

 

[Btvs fan]

I'm all for queer ships but Tara and Willow were wayy too toxic!

Tara deserves better!

I also wish that we got to see more about Tara, which was strange because there was a whole episode about her family and being a witch. It's almost like they were trying to set something up, but never got around to it. I'm not sure why..

I think before season 6 Tara and Willow were one of the most healthiest relationships.

I can see where the writers were going with Tara's unexpected death, but it felt like it was just the easy way out in order to end s6 on a bang. Tara's death furthered Willow's character development if anything...

This makes sense bc Tara was an expendable character.

I found them boring. While the baby talk stuff was eye rolling.
Also
A first they were hampered by the fact the network wouldn't allow them to do anything.
B In the UK lesbian relationships were quite common on TV. The Bad Girls one of Nikki and Helen was far more interesting
C They didnt really have good chemistry anyway. On the S4 DVD Commentary Petrie comments that they were aware of the chemistry of Willow and Riley and deliberately walked back on that (though that was because of Buffy and Riley admittedly) but yeah it was noticeable the difference

 

[garfan]

Tara was clearly a victim of childhood abuse which should contextualize her actions as more sympathetic/understandable to any reasonable person.hypo
Plus she never did anything remotely similar; it was one bad choice- that inadvertently put people in danger- that was never repeated; again sympathetic.

Willow did many, many questionable things, some of the worst being to Tara, and very rarely seemed to learn from her mistakes, she did them over and over and others where the ones that suffered. Remember that the 'karmic consequences' of Willow's actions in S6 is the death of Tara, kind of a cop-out that Tara pays for Willow's sins.

Not that Tara doesn't have character flaws; for example excusing or rationalizing your own and other people's (romantic) bad choices is actually really bad, but most don't call her out for it.

thankfully I don't buy into the Tara's life is traded for Buffy's thing at all.

And it was a year of lies, a bad spell and another ruined spell, which shows she'd act in multiple ways to keep the secret.

Frankly, I would have preferred she actually be half demon, because most of her later stuff was based on her being knowledgeable and having a strong respect for things being done a certain way, except she shows when she has to she will violate those morals. Which makes her a hypocrite IMO and I don't care for hypocrites

Post automatically merged: May 2, 2026

I found them boring. While the baby talk stuff was eye rolling.
Also
A first they were hampered by the fact the network wouldn't allow them to do anything.
B In the UK lesbian relationships were quite common on TV. The Bad Girls one of Nikki and Helen was far more interesting
C They didnt really have good chemistry anyway. On the S4 DVD Commentary Petrie comments that they were aware of the chemistry of Willow and Riley and deliberately walked back on that (though that was because of Buffy and Riley admittedly) but yeah it was noticeable the difference

Sorry, I thought Willow and Tara had great chemistry

 

[whatdBuffyDo]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am curious what you believe Willow's deeper issues may be? I always thought her parents may have been both largely physically and emotionally absent.

KaitKat said it quite well. I agree that Willow might have self worth issues and maybe hasn't really learned how to handle big emotions healthily due to her absent parents. I think she wants to be loved and be significant for people around her and maybe believes that she needs to earn it somehow. She probably felt powerless in the past too.

Her excelling at studies, computers and magic might come from a couple of things other than just being intellectually curious:

• she wants to show others that she is useful and thus can be loved
• she deals with her shortcomings and emotions using external tools instead of internal tools
• she wants to control her environment when she can so that she will be safe

I don't think her seeking power via magic is this evil thing, but a natural possible trajectory because she felt powerless before and now she has this tool (magic) that seem to solve her problems, and she can use it when she is stuck. It proved itself to be a wrong thing to do later.

I think during the series her major issue was self awareness regarding these issues. I also think that her friends sometimes enabled her behavior by cutting her slack because they knew her closely and loved her, and this resulted in her issues being swept under the rug until they became something bigger.

Willow is very human. I like her. Also, she was around 22 at the end of the series. I liked the White Willow moment, it served as an enlightenment moment on how she actually felt inside of her that her previously harmful power can be a force of good without going out of hand, because now she has better emotional control too (going through grief also made her grow). She still has many years ahead of her to learn and grow and become a wise woman.

 

[thetopher]

thankfully I don't buy into the Tara's life is traded for Buffy's thing at all.

But Willow does, and the narrative definitely supports the reading that Tara's death was mostly to punish Willow's hubris.

And it was a year of lies, a bad spell and another ruined spell, which shows she'd act in multiple ways to keep the secret.

One lie. Ana a lie of omission at that, brought on by a traumatic upbringing and a bigger lie to keep her afraid, abused and in line.
The failed detection spell and the ruined spell were minor and would've harmed nobody except for the fact that, unrelatedly, Glory sent clown demons to kill Buffy and co. Not malicious, or indeed reckless compared to Willow's much longer track record.

because most of her later stuff was based on her being knowledgeable and having a strong respect for things being done a certain way, except she shows when she has to she will violate those morals. Which makes her a hypocrite IMO and I don't care for hypocrites

I do think Tara had a strong respect for the natural order- as was shown in 'Forever' but she also was a people pleaser, Willow was in pain and insistent that Buffy be brought back.
If Tara is a hypocrite in this one instance it is only because Willow coerced her into thinking that yet another dangerous spell (that she couldn't control) be done to fix Willow's feelings. A spell that Willow lied about btw.

That's Tara's true flaw- a pattern of behavior where she will excuse the terrible behavior of the people she loves.

 

[garfan]

I do think Tara had a strong respect for the natural order- as was shown in 'Forever' but she also was a people pleaser, Willow was in pain and insistent that Buffy be brought back.
If Tara is a hypocrite in this one instance it is only because Willow coerced her into thinking that yet another dangerous spell (that she couldn't control) be done to fix Willow's feelings. A spell that Willow lied about btw.

That's Tara's true flaw- a pattern of behavior where she will excuse the terrible behavior of the people she loves.

That wasn't even what I was talking about, I was talking about what she'd do to keep her "secret"

It's a terrible thing that happened to her, but it also means it in combination with actions she took because of that thing, she was unfit for the role the story put her into

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I have a hard time considering memory alteration this massive violation when every member of the Scoobies is walking around with between 1 to 14 years of altered memories in their head

??? what altered memories? Idk what that means

let's think about the fact that Tara would not have had sex with Willow if she knew the true story. That's taking away her autonomy, because consent is only 100% if it's a definite yes with all information known.

Just because it's not something like Spike jumping Buffy during the bathroom scene, doesn't make it less rapey; it just makes it less 'violent'.

Even if people have 'done worse' that doesn't mean what Willow did isn't bad. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Buffy fans have a hard time understanding this considering how flawed the characters are.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Willow...is utterly wilful, selfish, arrogant & entitled. Tara does not deserve to be lied to and mind (and body) raped.
(if you cannot give meaningful consent, it is rape)

Willow is easily the least good person in the main cast. Xander is immature, but fundamentally loyal. Buffy is a flawed hero. Everyone looks at their flaws to some degree. Angel tries to atone. Spike gets a soul.

Willow never does make any real changes. She messes with people in serious, life-threatening ways. They find out. She bakes cookies.

"My will be done" tells me so much about what Willow thinks she is entitled to. She thinks she should play god.

She would have willingly forced Oz to stay in her life and could have easily killed her friends or even destroyed the world with that spell. It is small wonder D'hoffryn wanted her to join his ranks.

Then she loses Tara and decides to end the world? A world ender of a tantrum?

As a young widow, i cant imagine hurting anyone as a solution to my pain - horrible as it was and sad as it still makes me decades later.

Two times she loses a relationship and two times she makes dangerous magical choices that could have or did cost lives. Just no.

And way before oz, the first time she gets romantic attention she lies to her friends (the demon in the computer, season 1)

Then after trying to end the world, she comes back from magic rehab full of self pity and almost gets herself eaten because she still has no magic contrrol. She has learned nothing!

i loved willow and tara in the early days before willow destroyed their relationship with her entitled and wilful behaviour. She has zero morals.

 

[Btvs fan]

@SavvyZ listen to the Initiative DVD Commentary if you don't believe me

 

[garfan]

"My will be done" tells me so much about what Willow thinks she is entitled to. She thinks she should play god.

She would have willingly forced Oz to stay in her life and could have easily killed her friends or even destroyed the world with that spell. It is small wonder D'hoffryn wanted her to join his ranks.

We find out later Oz thought he could just come back to their relationship as soon as the problem was solved. Maybe Willow had some idea he felt that way

Then she loses Tara and decides to end the world? A world ender of a tantrum?

the world ending was from making a suicidal person feel the whole world's pain

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

We find out later Oz thought he could just come back to their relationship as soon as the problem was solved. Maybe Willow had some idea he felt that way





the world ending was from making a suicidal person feel the whole world's pain

So when the love of my life died i should have tried to nuke the world so they could feel my pain? What grandiose self-centered BS! Suicide is never an answer, but taking one's own life is ways off of killing others, much less, everyone! That is a tantrum! no one loves me i am going to blow up the world! Suicide bombers think that way!

As for Oz wanting to come back, people in relationships work problems out every day.that is NO justification for one of them taking away their free will. "I know you love me, i will make you see..." Does that sound sickly familiar?

 

[garfan]

So when the love of my life died i should have tried to nuke theworld so they could feel my pain? What grandiose self-centered BS! Suicide is never an answer, but taking one's own life is ways off of killing others, much less, everyone! That is a tantrum! no one loves me i am going to blow up the world! Suicide bombers think that way!

it was not "nobody loves me" it was "So many people are hurting the same as me"

As for Oz wanting to come back, people in relationships work problems out every day.that is NO justification for one of them taking away their free will. "I know you love me, i will make you see..." Does that sound sickly familiar?

we see no evidence Willow was going to take away his free will rather than "I will that Oz was no longer a werewolf" or "I will that Oz could control his transformations"

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

it was not "nobody loves me" it was "So many people are hurting the same as me"


we see no evidence Willow was going to take away his free will rather than "I will that Oz was no longer a werewolf" or "I will that Oz could control his transformations"

We don't EVER get to make major (and risky) changes on others - ESPECIALLY not ADULTS without their knowledge or consent. Magic is risky. It is not something we do to others without their consent. Being a werewolf is not curable. Attempting to cure him is a big risk. "My will be done"is a *god* level spell - attempted by a beginner witch.

We dont know what her plan is. It is not stated. Just "my will be done."

It is only a miracle she did not wish something truly scary like 'i hate country X and how bad they are. They should just stop existing'. She could have wished literally ANYTHING up to and including the end of the world. Her spell IDEA shows either total stupidity or evil Intent. Willow was not remotely stupid. I think she is simply that selfish. Drunk with power.

She is one of those smart people who believes their intelligence gives them the right to substitute her will for theirs. I know people like this. They hurt people and it never occurs to them that their suffering matters - because they are certain they are right.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

we see no evidence Willow was going to take away his free will rather than "I will that Oz was no longer a werewolf" or "I will that Oz could control his transformations"

Considering Willow's behavior surrounding relationships and magic it is not a wild assumption that she might try to take away Oz's autonomy. She was very immature and controlling in those earlier seasons as well! 😶‍🌫️

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

KaitKat said it quite well. I agree that Willow might have self worth issues and maybe hasn't really learned how to handle big emotions healthily due to her absent parents. I think she wants to be loved and be significant for people around her and maybe believes that she needs to earn it somehow. She probably felt powerless in the past too.

Her excelling at studies, computers and magic might come from a couple of things other than just being intellectually curious:

• she wants to show others that she is useful and thus can be loved
• she deals with her shortcomings and emotions using external tools instead of internal tools
• she wants to control her environment when she can so that she will be safe

I don't think her seeking power via magic is this evil thing, but a natural possible trajectory because she felt powerless before and now she has this tool (magic) that seem to solve her problems, and she can use it when she is stuck. It proved itself to be a wrong thing to do later.

I think during the series her major issue was self awareness regarding these issues. I also think that her friends sometimes enabled her behavior by cutting her slack because they knew her closely and loved her, and this resulted in her issues being swept under the rug until they became something bigger.

Willow is very human. I like her. Also, she was around 22 at the end of the series. I liked the White Willow moment, it served as an enlightenment moment on how she actually felt inside of her that her previously harmful power can be a force of good without going out of hand, because now she has better emotional control too (going through grief also made her grow). She still has many years ahead of her to learn and grow and become a wise woman.

Many war widows are in their early 20s, occasionally earlier. They often manage to show up for family and life responsibilities without spouses. Many military wives are head of households in their 20s because their partner is overseas. They are responsible for ALL adult life choices and they figure it out. Life is hard. People have been adulting in their 20s forever.

Yes, Willow was young. But she was not THAT young. Or that stupid. Even as a teen she was hacking into government computer systems. Because she could. This is a crime. She never thinks consequences should apply to her.

Funny, her best friend was busy saving the world and even dying for it. Buffy was not not abusing her power for fun or profit. Even though she could have once she was broke. She could easily have used her strength to do criminal activities.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So many reasons have been given for what a person did have been given but generally speaking but many of them are dumb.
Willow ' hacking ' into the local government and finding the underground electrical cable route, oh what a major crime! Though breaking into the Local Government site was a crime, finding the electrical cable tunnels, not so much.
Then to say that (Buffy) killed people (demons) was okay. In normal society killing a person (even if they are secretively a demon) is a crime for which she could be punished.
In #33 DeepBlueJoy goes on about My Will Be Done meaning stuff when she obviously knows nothing about its proper meaning,
That is what is said, regarding her will being done in that particular magic. Not any obscure something you think it might mean.

Just because a member thinks, what they believe might be the real reason, it does not mean they are right.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

So many reasons have been given for what a person did have been given but generally speaking but many of them are dumb.
Willow ' hacking ' into the local government and finding the underground electrical cable route, oh what a major crime! Though breaking into the Local Government site was a crime, finding the electrical cable tunnels, not so much.
Then to say that (Buffy) killed people (demons) was okay. In normal society killing a person (even if they are secretively a demon) is a crime for which she could be punished.
In #33 DeepBlueJoy goes on about My Will Be Done meaning stuff when she obviously knows nothing about its proper meaning,
That is what is said, regarding her will being done in that particular magic. Not any obscure something you think it might mean.

Just because a member thinks, what they believe might be the real reason, it does not mean they are right.

Yeah, it is called an opinion. It also applies to you! 🙂

No, local hacking is not a major crime, especially if all you do is look.what it DOES show is that Willow believes that rules (and laws) are something created for other people.

*This is a pattern.* one that has bigger and bigger consequences FOR OTHERS over time. THAT does matter.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I wrote in #33 about what I meant referred to you, why didn't you. If you had I would know how to reply to you, or how to apologise to you.

 

[garfan]

Considering Willow's behavior surrounding relationships and magic it is not a wild assumption that she might try to take away Oz's autonomy. She was very immature and controlling in those earlier seasons as well! 😶‍🌫️

she pined for Xander for years, did nothing about it

Yes, Willow was young. But she was not THAT young. Or that stupid. Even as a teen she was hacking into government computer systems. Because she could. This is a crime. She never thinks consequences should apply to her.

I'd like to point out we see little evidence Willow thinks consequences should apply to anyone she cares about.

Funny, her best friend was busy saving the world and even dying for it. Buffy was not not abusing her power for fun or profit. Even though she could have once she was broke. She could easily have used her strength to do criminal activities.

Many people don't actually respect Buffy's stance on that

 

[SavvyScoobie]

she pined for Xander for years, did nothing about it

still raped Tara...and then she actually cheated with Xander...

To give her some credit she still redeemed herself and earned Oz's forgiveness for cheating.

yeah she's not the best at relationships...😬

and the whole 'ending the world' thing? not responsible with magic either...