I don't like Tillow...

[garfan]

still raped Tara...and then she actually cheated with Xander...

To give her some credit she still redeemed herself and earned Oz's forgiveness for cheating.

yeah she's not the best at relationships...😬

and the whole 'ending the world' thing? not responsible with magic either...

she didn't make herself insane

 

[whatdBuffyDo]

Many war widows are in their early 20s, occasionally earlier. They often manage to show up for family and life responsibilities without spouses. Many military wives are head of households in their 20s because their partner is overseas. They are responsible for ALL adult life choices and they figure it out. Life is hard. People have been adulting in their 20s forever.

Yes, Willow was young. But she was not THAT young. Or that stupid. Even as a teen she was hacking into government computer systems. Because she could. This is a crime. She never thinks consequences should apply to her.

Funny, her best friend was busy saving the world and even dying for it. Buffy was not not abusing her power for fun or profit. Even though she could have once she was broke. She could easily have used her strength to do criminal activities.

I didn’t read any of the messages other than Joan the Vampire Slayer and KaitKat, and only shared my opinion because it was requested. I could’ve made it clear that I wasn’t excusing Willow, just speculating about explanations regarding her trajectory in life. (I still haven’t read the rest of the discussion so what I am writing right now is just to expand my previous post for clarity.)

What I wrote was my own character study. One might argue that writers did a far from ideal job at actually passing the message that Willow was in the wrong and should have faced consequences before S6 too. I think that would be a different, more technical discussion about the art of writing that I haven’t given much thought to so far.

Also in case I also couldn’t make it clear in my previous post, this part was regarding how I thought Willow saw magic, not my personal view on what she should have done:

now she has this tool (magic) that seem to solve her problems, and she can use it when she is stuck

For what it’s worth, I have met entitled people with some sort of background that made them stuck in selfish cycles, bordering on cluster B personality disorders. Some have grown and become better people; some haven’t yet. I’ve learned to love them without excusing their harmful actions. I see life as a chance to experience and learn, and everyone goes at a different pace.

 

[NotASlayer]

Giles bears a huge amount of responsibility for Willow trying to end the world. Until he arrived, demonstrated that he knew people who could have helped her earlier in the season but didn't care enough to get them involved, and botched things leading to Willow feeling all the world's suffering (so, you know, the suffering and issues of billions, enough to drive anyone mad) and thinking everyone was better off dead, she had only (sic) been going on a local rampage that might well have ended self-destructively once it got to and then there were none.

 

[Kendar]

One aspect of sci-fi I don’t want to see come true is androids. Please don’t make androids… It would all be Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell 🫠

the backstory never made much sense to me, since Tara's mother should have been marrying into the family and thus not have grown up with it.

It's a sad traumatic backstory, but when the character with it is later supposed to be super knowledgeable and have strong morals about things it's hard for me to respect that character


I have a hard time considering memory alteration this massive violation when every member of the Scoobies is walking around with between 1 to 14 years of altered memories in their head

The memory alteration the monks did IS a huge violation. One of the weaknesses of the show is often not exploring the consequences of actions like that. The show only choosing to address one of them is an issue with the show, not the characters.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I would agree that Willow, based on Restless, does have some deep seated fears about intimacy and being unlovable, and a lot of her actions are best understood in that light. A lot of her love is intermixed with obsession, and she wasn't single a lot after she started dating Oz. Trying to use...

Wait, was she really sitting in the middle of a dorm bathroom to cast the Something Blue spell? That must be the least used dorm bathroom ever.

 

[thetopher]

That wasn't even what I was talking about, I was talking about what she'd do to keep her "secret"

She cast one desperate spell as the 'deadline' drew near, so that her friends wouldn't see the demon part of her, when she realized it went wrong she raced to undo it.

Willow, Dawn and even Xander have cast spells that have directly targeted and effected other people, and not out of a deep-rooted traumatic fear either. Tara is hardly worse that any of the main cast.

It's a terrible thing that happened to her, but it also means it in combination with actions she took because of that thing, she was unfit for the role the story put her into

That's a wild claim at the end there; she was 'unfit' to be a love interest? This sounds like straight up victim blaming because you're unable to deal with Willow's many problematic actions.

 

[garfan]

That's a wild claim at the end there; she was 'unfit' to be a love interest? This sounds like straight up victim blaming because you're unable to deal with Willow's many problematic actions.

The role I was talking about was being the knowledgeable one, the wise and rational one who always a good judge of appropriate uses of magic

 

[thetopher]

The role I was talking about was being the knowledgeable one, the wise and rational one who always a good judge of appropriate uses of magic

That's not Tara, that's Giles. And even then it comes from experience with disastrous magicks.

Tara's view of witchcraft is simply different from Willow's, less utilitarian and more nature/balance/harmony. She almost certainly represents how most wiccans view magic, with some knowledge about the history, rules, etc. thrown in for good measure.
Her view of magic is less 'rational'- that's Willow - and more emotional and intuitive. And its not like she's always right- as an example she agreed to resurrect Buffy as well- she's just less wrong than Willow is most of the time.

 

[garfan]

For what it’s worth, I have met entitled people with some sort of background that made them stuck in selfish cycles, bordering on cluster B personality disorders. Some have grown and become better people; some haven’t yet. I’ve learned to love them without excusing their harmful actions. I see life as a chance to experience and learn, and everyone goes at a different pace.

What's Cluster B personality disorders?

The memory alteration the monks did IS a huge violation. One of the weaknesses of the show is often not exploring the consequences of actions like that. The show only choosing to address one of them is an issue with the show, not the characters.

That might be true. Or it could be taken to mean that it wouldn't be seen as a big deal by certain of those characters.

My personal opinion of Willow is in the event of a memory alteration her response would be "Well, what are you erasing and why?"

That's not Tara, that's Giles. And even then it comes from experience with disastrous magicks.

Giles wasn't around for most of season 6, so someone had to play that role

Tara's view of witchcraft is simply different from Willow's, less utilitarian and more nature/balance/harmony. She almost certainly represents how most wiccans view magic, with some knowledge about the history, rules, etc. thrown in for good measure.
Her view of magic is less 'rational'- that's Willow - and more emotional and intuitive. And its not like she's always right- as an example she agreed to resurrect Buffy as well- she's just less wrong than Willow is most of the time.

When I say rational I wasn't using like scientific terms. I meant like your average person might say shifting everyone to another dimension to search for a 15 year old was irrational and reckless.

In fact, I find Tara's view of magic as bound by her upbringing and history, while Willow would be the one to have the emotional and intuitive view. She feels like this spell or that spell is the appropriate spell for the situation and she'd enjoy doing that spell.

We actually have little way to tell if Tara is what most wiccans believe. I'm not sure she'd go along with the Coven's plan at the end of season 6, and they're about the only other example we have

 

[silvermoon]

Tara was the wise old crone in a way to Willow's immature little girl. Tara saw a lot, and had deep empathy for everyone. I loved them as a couple and was angry when Tara took the hit - but it made sense. In real life, people torment and bully the sweetest kindest people online and off for kicks. They are jealous. I think many were jealous of tara, including Willow in some ways. Tara's family scapegoated her - and in the end, when Warren missed, she paid with her life. The show got rid of its most fundamentally decent character.

I never felt what Willow did was out of malice, just deep confusion and insecurity. Why? Who knows. The scooby gang is basically one of orphans, you never see any of the parents really but for Joyce, and Giles is a substitute figure in a lot of ways.

I wish tara had returned in season 7 b.c. Kennedy was an annoying joke.

 

[whatdBuffyDo]

What's Cluster B personality disorders?

It is a category of psychiatric diagnoses. I am merely copy pasting what Google’s AI summarizes when I search the keyword, you may research them further:

Spoiler

Cluster B personality disorders are a group of mental health conditions characterized by dramatic, overly emotional, or erratic thinking and behavior. Individuals with these disorders often struggle to regulate their emotions and frequently face significant challenges in maintaining stable interpersonal relationships.

They fall into four primary subtypes:

1. Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)

• Core traits: Intense fear of abandonment, unstable self-image, and severe mood swings.
• Behaviors: Impulsive actions, chronic feelings of emptiness, and sometimes self-harming or suicidal behaviors. Relationships tend to be highly intense and volatile.

2. Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)

• Core traits: A pervasive disregard for the rights, feelings, and boundaries of others.
• Behaviors: Manipulative or deceitful actions, impulsivity, aggression, and a lack of remorse or guilt for harmful behavior. (Note: This is often referred to as sociopathy or psychopathy).

3. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

• Core traits: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy for others.
• Behaviors: Exaggerated sense of self-importance, exploiting others for personal gain, and reacting with extreme anger or shame to criticism.

4. Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD)

• Core traits: Uncomfortable when not the center of attention and a need for constant approval.
• Behaviors: Using physical appearance to draw attention, displaying rapidly shifting or shallow emotions, and acting in highly dramatic or inappropriately seductive ways.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Tara was the wise old crone in a way to Willow's immature little girl. Tara saw a lot, and had deep empathy for everyone. I loved them as a couple and was angry when Tara took the hit - but it made sense. In real life, people torment and bully the sweetest kindest people online and off for kicks. They are jealous. I think many were jealous of tara, including Willow in some ways. Tara's family scapegoated her - and in the end, when Warren missed, she paid with her life. The show got rid of its most fundamentally decent character.

I never felt what Willow did was out of malice, just deep confusion and insecurity. Why? Who knows. The scooby gang is basically one of orphans, you never see any of the parents really but for Joyce, and Giles is a substitute figure in a lot of ways.

Thank you for saying this. I don't think fans aknowledge enough about what a bad match Willow and Tara were in this sense, meaning their maturity levels. Though they're the same age, Tara is clearly more mature, and Willow is not. Willow is arrogant and selfish, and yes, I agree, very insecure, especially about Tara. This is Willow's first lesbian relationship, and part of her feels like she has to "compete" with Tara, who clearly has more experience and is more comfortable being gay, since has been "out" longer.

Interesting point about the gang being orphans. I'd argue they all, in some capacity, have emotionally unavailable or absent parents for sure. Buffy's father Hank is largely absent post S2. Joyce tries, but misses the mark in the parenting department more times then I'd like. Willow's parents don't appear to be abusive, but they're hardly ever seen, and I get the sense Willow is left alone a lot, perhaps while they're traveling for work, and she pretty much raised herself, which explains how responsible she is at such a young age. When we see her mother, she's trying to burn her daughter at the stake. And Xander's father is an alcoholic and verbally abusive, and his parents clearly don't have a good marriage.

As for Tara, the good characters always suffer.

 

[silvermoon]

Thank you for saying this. I don't think fans aknowledge enough about what a bad match Willow and Tara were in this sense, meaning their maturity levels. Though they're the same age, Tara is clearly more mature, and Willow is not. Willow is arrogant and selfish, and yes, I agree, very insecure, especially about Tara. This is Willow's first lesbian relationship, and part of her feels like she has to "compete" with Tara, who clearly has more experience and is more comfortable being gay, since has been "out" longer.

Interesting point about the gang being orphans. I'd argue they all, in some capacity, have emotionally unavailable or absent parents for sure. Buffy's father Hank is largely absent post S2. Joyce tries, but misses the mark in the parenting department more times then I'd like. Willow's parents don't appear to be abusive, but they're hardly ever seen, and I get the sense Willow is left alone a lot, perhaps while they're traveling for work, and she pretty much raised herself, which explains how responsible she is at such a young age. When we see her mother, she's trying to burn her daughter at the stake. And Xander's father is an alcoholic and verbally abusive, and his parents clearly don't have a good marriage.

As for Tara, the good characters always suffer.

Thanks. And your comment is spot on. I remember the very uncomfortable convo they had in 5 when they had their argument . Willow felt insecure b.c. she hadn't been out as long as Tara. And yikes I need to rewatch the earlier seasons b.c. I don't even remember that about Willow's mom! Xander's family was always awful, the scenes where he's in the basement with Anya and they are upstairs arguing, etc. And in 6 in hell's bells. Hank ofc is the cliched loser dad but it impacts Buffy a lot I think. Interesting that in rl I think SMG had a deadbeat father. Joyce was always kind of an enigma to me, she loved Buffy but was she a strong mother figure really, i agree

 

[thetopher]

Giles wasn't around for most of season 6, so someone had to play that role

But you didn't specify 'their role in Season 6' just their role as a character. Tara was never the 'big knowledge lecturer person' until Willow's incredibly reckless actions warranted it.

In fact, I find Tara's view of magic as bound by her upbringing and history, while Willow would be the one to have the emotional and intuitive view. She feels like this spell or that spell is the appropriate spell for the situation and she'd enjoy doing that spell.

Tara was taught by her Mom and Willow studied magic books, the latter lends itself less to intuition, no?

Besides Willow was emotional about casting spells, but those emotions were usually self-serving (i.e utilitarian in their own way); 'I want to stop being in love with Xander', I want revenge on Veruca', 'I want to not be heartbroken over Oz, 'I want Buffy back'.
Emotional? Sure, but not at all intuitive. Intuition would probably tell you that playing with your own and other people's emotions is wrong.


Anyway, I still maintain that Tara's one paltry 'betrayal' pales in comparison to Willow's pattern of abuse towards her. It wasn't an insurmountable problem for the relationship going forward, but Tara's character deserved more time to process what Willow did to her and move forward more naturally.
...But I guess she needed to be sacrificed to teach Willow a lesson so Willow could (again) be forcibly moved on from mourning her soulmate after less than a year.

I guess the worst thing about Tillow is that it mattered more to the fanbase than to the writers.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

Thanks. And your comment is spot on. I remember the very uncomfortable convo they had in 5 when they had their argument . Willow felt insecure b.c. she hadn't been out as long as Tara. And yikes I need to rewatch the earlier seasons b.c. I don't even remember that about Willow's mom! Xander's family was always awful, the scenes where he's in the basement with Anya and they are upstairs arguing, etc. And in 6 in hell's bells. Hank ofc is the cliched loser dad but it impacts Buffy a lot I think. Interesting that in rl I think SMG had a deadbeat father. Joyce was always kind of an enigma to me, she loved Buffy but was she a strong mother figure really, i agree

At first that argument they had felt natural. Willow in her first queer relationship, after ending her last one with Oz on a bad note...it just felt like a very normal 'fight'. Looking back on it though, it definitely revealed a lot about Willow and her deeper insecurities.

I felt bad for Willow, but she could ve reached out better. Tara was genuinely worried about her, and cared even when she had no obligation to (after their break up in season 6). If I were Tara I would just leave, but I can't lie it wouldn't be easy.

 

[garfan]

But you didn't specify 'their role in Season 6' just their role as a character. Tara was never the 'big knowledge lecturer person' until Willow's incredibly reckless actions warranted it.

No, I suppose I didn't. But Tara was only there for two and a half years. And honestly, while she was the only one there to fulfill that role in season six, I think she slipped into that role as soon as she was no longer a secret keeper. With her "I taught you little tinkerbell lights" and then "no more teleportation spells"(even though that spell was why they were alive) and their fight in season 5, was her being that.

Tara was taught by her Mom and Willow studied magic books, the latter lends itself less to intuition, no?

It might seem that way, but Tara seemed to take what she was taught as dogma, while Willow's books don't teach her when to cast magic, plus we know she liked to experiment and improvise

Besides Willow was emotional about casting spells, but those emotions were usually self-serving (i.e utilitarian in their own way); 'I want to stop being in love with Xander', I want revenge on Veruca', 'I want to not be heartbroken over Oz, 'I want Buffy back'.

the first one also serves Xander, Oz and Cordelia. The second was the only way someone like her could fight back. The Scoobies got sick of her being upset pretty quick.

Emotional? Sure, but not at all intuitive. Intuition would probably tell you that playing with your own and other people's emotions is wrong.

really? That just feels strange to me. Going with your gut about your emotions being wrong feels very naturally intuitive

Anyway, I still maintain that Tara's one paltry 'betrayal' pales in comparison to Willow's pattern of abuse towards her. It wasn't an insurmountable problem for the relationship going forward, but Tara's character deserved more time to process what Willow did to her and move forward more naturally.

well, I consider it more than one, but I think Willow's reaction vs Tara's reaction shows some things about them

Willow's instant forgiveness shows that kind of behavior is not a big deal to her, while Tara's breaking up with Willow shows that it is a big deal for her

That means Tara is willing to go against her own morals to save herself which makes her a hypocrite to me. Sure she was doing it to protect herself, but feeling the need to violate her morals to protect herself from the Scoobies just makes her self-righteous and a poor judge of character and danger

She's willing to hold others to standards she can't meet herself

...But I guess she needed to be sacrificed to teach Willow a lesson so Willow could (again) be forcibly moved on from mourning her soulmate after less than a year.

I guess the worst thing about Tillow is that it mattered more to the fanbase than to the writers.

At the very least I doubt that was the plan when season 6 was filmed

 

[NotASlayer]

well, I consider it more than one, but I think Willow's reaction vs Tara's reaction shows some things about them

Willow's instant forgiveness shows that kind of behavior is not a big deal to her, while Tara's breaking up with Willow shows that it is a big deal for her

The two situations are not remotely comparable. Tara, who has been abused her entire life, keeps a secret because of this, makes a mistake trying to keep it, is immediately overcome by guilt and is heading off to leave. Willow, because she can't be bothered having a fight, alters her girlfriend's mind so they can have sex instead, and instead of being overcome by guilt, does the exact same thing again. In the first the harm is accidental and stems from abuse. In the second it is deliberate and stems from self-interest.

 

[garfan]

The two situations are not remotely comparable. Tara, who has been abused her entire life, keeps a secret because of this, makes a mistake trying to keep it, is immediately overcome by guilt and is heading off to leave. Willow, because she can't be bothered having a fight, alters her girlfriend's mind so they can have sex instead, and instead of being overcome by guilt, does the exact same thing again. In the first the harm is accidental and stems from abuse. In the second it is deliberate and stems from self-interest.

Willow did not do that. They did not have sex that night. Tara cuddled up to her but that was it

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Willow did not do that. They did not have sex that night. Tara cuddled up to her but that was it

Actually, we don't know. We do know that they got cuddly and Tara was forced to behave as though nothing she was angry over happened.

She was turned into a Willow plaything, a mindless and obedient puppet whose anger and feelings were erased - Willow's will be done whenever inconvenient.

Tara had her ability to consent to any aspect of their interaction removed.

How is this different from what Warren did to his actual girlfriend with that magic gem? I guess Willow did not share Tara with anyone...

Tara's agency and personhood was stolen so Willow could erase their fights and get her "preferred" version of Tara - one who is compliant with Willow's will and ready to be 'friendly' instead of angry. She wanted a human teddy bear!

That is soul rape.

This is particularly perncious after Glory stole her mind. This is in addition to how her family, by their lifelong abuse, stole her agency (her right to decide for herself and to live as she saw fit as a full person).

And any time in future that Willow and Tara did have sex it was sex under false pretenses because she did not know - could NEVER KNOW - whether she would give consent to ANY part of the relationship - she did not know all of Willow's actions. (their whole relationship could be said to be fruit of a poisonous tree... Her actions are shaped by her reality after Willow's spells and conditioned on her false perception

If someone had done what she did and tampered with my brain, magically or chemically, it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for me to be with that person ever - mentally, emotionally or sexually. Even as a friend.

This violation goes beyond forcible rape into a realm of control that is terrifying. It was essentially like being roofied so her mind could not hold the memories that would be necessary for consent to ANYTHING. She was making Tara into her "April" (the robot girlfriend)

Sex would be way wrong. But it goes way past sex.

Willow was programming Tara into a puppet who did what Willow wanted - each time she used the spell, she deleted some of Tara's history and therefore her ability to give informed consent to any aspect of the relationship.

It was clear (from Dawn's comments and Tara finding Lethe's Bramble under her pillow) that Willow did the spell several times, possibly many times.

Tara was living in Willow's reality, not the actual real world. I wonder how many tests she did not do well on as a result of forgetting what she had studied or learned that day?

That Tara chose to forgive is a function of Tara's heart and maybe a bit about her history of abuse, which would tend to condition her to accept mistreatment.

 

[Kendar]

Willow did not do that. They did not have sex that night. Tara cuddled up to her but that was it

Whether they did that night or not (and as DBJ says we don't know), they certainly did the next day. Given how angry Tara was before Willow wiped her memory, it's a safe bet they probably woudn't have.

It also causes something even more concerning. When people sing, they seem to be singing about what's on their mind at the time. Mustard Guy, Lady with the ticket. Most of our cast have more serious things (Xander and Anya marriage concerns, Buffy and being pulled back). Because of the spell it seems that literally the only thing on Tara's mind is how much she loves Willow. That's a bit concerning and implies that possibly more than the fight got wiped.