I don't like Tillow...

[garfan]

She was turned into a Willow plaything, a mindless and obedient puppet whose anger and feelings were erased - Willow's will be done whenever inconvenient.

Tara had her ability to consent to any aspect of their interaction removed.

How is this different from what Warren did to his actual girlfriend with that magic gem? I guess Willow did not share Tara with anyone...

Willow removed Tara's desire to remove consent, Warren removed the ability

Tara's agency and personhood was stolen so Willow could erase their fights and get her "preferred" version of Tara - one who is compliant with Willow's will and ready to be 'friendly' instead of angry. She wanted a human teddy bear!

No, in fact Tara is not "compliant" with WIllow's will. Willow has to hide what she's doing to avoid fights

And any time in future that Willow and Tara did have sex it was sex under false pretenses because she did not know - could NEVER KNOW - whether she would give consent to ANY part of the relationship - she did not know all of Willow's actions. (their whole relationship could be said to be fruit of a poisonous tree... Her actions are shaped by her reality after Willow's spells and conditioned on her false perception

This is why I only consider it the equivalent of Tara's lie from introduction to Family. Tara denied Willow the opportunity to say "I don't want to date a part demon"

Now, that may not seem like much but it creates a "false perception". And it does not jibe with the rest of the show. Angel and Buffy don't actually start dating till she knows he's a vampire. Buffy breaks up with Owen when she feels she can't tell him about slaying. Oz backs off from Willow when he becomes a werewolf. Riley and Buffy dance around each other while keeping secrets. Forrest even laments their jobs screwing up dating. Doyle never makes a move on Cordelia because he was hiding he was half-demon.

Hiding a major secret in not something you can do in the Buffyverse while advancing a relationship. It's just wrong. Unless your name is Tara

Willow was programming Tara into a puppet who did what Willow wanted - each time she used the spell, she deleted some of Tara's history and therefore her ability to give informed consent to any aspect of the relationship.

Tara's opinions remained her own. We've seen spells that do what you describe. It takes more that the spell she used

It was clear (from Dawn's comments and Tara finding Lethe's Bramble under her pillow) that Willow did the spell several times, possibly many times.

If Willow had done it multiple times, she wouldn't have needed to check if it had worked, she also wouldn't have gotten so upset with Tara in All the Way or to placate her in Tabula Rasa

Whether they did that night or not (and as DBJ says we don't know), they certainly did the next day. Given how angry Tara was before Willow wiped her memory, it's a safe bet they probably woudn't have.

OMWF should not be considered the next day from All the Way. The show opens with a montage that takes a full day for one thing, For another All The Way takes place on Halloween and the store was decorated for it. We see the store and there's no signs of those decorations

It also causes something even more concerning. When people sing, they seem to be singing about what's on their mind at the time. Mustard Guy, Lady with the ticket. Most of our cast have more serious things (Xander and Anya marriage concerns, Buffy and being pulled back). Because of the spell it seems that literally the only thing on Tara's mind is how much she loves Willow. That's a bit concerning and implies that possibly more than the fight got wiped.

Pretty much the only thing Spike sings about is Buffy. Tara doesn't have a big event happening at the moment that she knows of, and the fight is the only big thing the showhas shown us. There's no evidence of multiple erasures

And I actually stumbled on a post today where someone pointed out the one time Willow and Tara had sex after the spell, Willow was under the control of the spell(they called it the writers soft pedaling Willow's actions). I'd never thought of it that way, but with the double entendre of the song and all Willow going down on Tara at that point was very much part of the choreography of t he song

 

[thetopher]

I think she slipped into that role as soon as she was no longer a secret keeper. With her "I taught you little tinkerbell lights" and then "no more teleportation spells"(even though that spell was why they were alive)

But Tara learned from Willow as well- the plucking the rose spell- so that doesn't track at all. Tara and Willow clearly learned from each other.
And the 'no more teleportation spells' is really just concern for Willow's wellbeing, which is very different from S6. In S6 Willow wasn't in danger she was the danger.

and their fight in season 5, was her being that.

I feel that you should go and watch that scene again because their argument was really nothing to do with Tara being a big knowledge person, it was about her being insecure about her place in Willow's future. Not big knowledge/telling Willow what to do but big worry.

It might seem that way, but Tara seemed to take what she was taught as dogma

Not at all, if that were the casr then she would've never allowed the resurrection spell to take place; that's what dogma would look like, unyeilding.

while Willow's books don't teach her when to cast magic, plus we know she liked to experiment and improvise

Indeed Willow wasn't even taught IF magic were necessary half the time, hence he constantly trying to regulate serious negative emotions- hers and others- with spells.

the first one also serves Xander, Oz and Cordelia.

It serves Willow first and foremost since she doesn't even tell Xander she's casting a spell on him/them. Secondly Willow might try growing up and making a choice instead of casting spells; its dumb.

The second was the only way someone like her could fight back.

Yep, cursing was her only option regarding Oz cheating on her. She could do nothing else.

The Scoobies got sick of her being upset pretty quick.

Nope, Willow wasn't casting a spell on herself in 'Something Blue' because her friends were tired of her, she remains quite self-absorbed regarding her behaviour in that episode; she did the spell entirely for herself.

Going with your gut about your emotions being wrong feels very naturally intuitive

Not really. It's far more common for people to rationalize themselves out of doing something emotional and rash; 'coming to your senses' indicates brains of feels.

well, I consider it more than one, but I think Willow's reaction vs Tara's reaction shows some things about them

Willow's instant forgiveness shows that kind of behavior is not a big deal to her, while Tara's breaking up with Willow shows that it is a big deal for her

That means Tara is willing to go against her own morals to save herself which makes her a hypocrite to me. Sure she was doing it to protect herself, but feeling the need to violate her morals to protect herself from the Scoobies just makes her self-righteous and a poor judge of character and danger

She's willing to hold others to standards she can't meet herself

There is no equivalency here; Tara made one mistake that she did not repeat, that doesn't make her a hypocrite. Hypocrites have an identifiable pattern of behaviour.

Willow did something abhorrent to Tara, was found out, told not to do it again by Tara- who gave Willow another chance- and then immediately tried to do it again. Tara had no option but to leave a toxic situation, for her own wellbeing. Tara's lie was not an ongoing threat to Willow, and gi9ven the intent then instant forgiveness was much easier and cost nothing. Tara was powerless against Willow id Willow decided that 3rd time was the charm and wiped Tara's memory again.

I have to say that your condemnation of Tara whilst giving Willow endless grace for her many bad actions is...interesting.

At the very least I doubt that was the plan when season 6 was filmed

That was actually the plan when S5 was written, but it was pushed back because the writers like Tara so much.
And still the moving on so quickly from Tara was decided after the fact - in S7 actually- and could be construed by many as disrespectful.

 

[garfan]

And the 'no more teleportation spells' is really just concern for Willow's wellbeing, which is very different from S6. In S6 Willow wasn't in danger she was the danger.



I feel that you should go and watch that scene again because their argument was really nothing to do with Tara being a big knowledge person, it was about her being insecure about her place in Willow's future. Not big knowledge/telling Willow what to do but big worry.

that is one viewing, but others view that shift from the way it starts as Willow manipulating it away from the subject Tara actually wanted to talk about

I have to say that your condemnation of Tara whilst giving Willow endless grace for her many bad actions is...interesting.

To much is asked of Willow, and then she's condemned for relying to much on the tools she uses to fulfill those responsibilities. She should trust everyone else's opinion on when to use magic, but not her own. I don't like that. It feels like they're very close to turning her into nothing but Buffy's big gun, which is the sort of thing Buffy fought against. And Buffy gets to judge when it's appropriate to use her own powers. Willow doesn't get that grace. Hell, Willow barely gets that prior to becoming a witch, see the Scoobies getting on her for studying Ted instead of disposing of him. As though the physically weakest of the group, who doesn't drive should be in charge of disposing of the robot the size of a large man

Comparatively relatively little is asked of Tara

That was actually the plan when S5 was written, but it was pushed back because the writers like Tara so much.
And still the moving on so quickly from Tara was decided after the fact - in S7 actually- and could be construed by many as disrespectful.

Yep. Likely only done because it was the last season

 

[SavvyScoobie]

well, I consider it more than one, but I think Willow's reaction vs Tara's reaction shows some things about them

Willow's instant forgiveness shows that kind of behavior is not a big deal to her, while Tara's breaking up with Willow shows that it is a big deal for her

That means Tara is willing to go against her own morals to save herself which makes her a hypocrite to me. Sure she was doing it to protect herself, but feeling the need to violate her morals to protect herself from the Scoobies just makes her self-righteous and a poor judge of character and danger

She's willing to hold others to standards she can't meet herself

Tara's reaction; distance herself and try talking about it later
Willow's reaction; cast a self serving spell that violates Tara and alters her emotions

Willow cast that spell because she realized she was in a conflict, but didn't wanna put in the work to resolve it like a good partner. She chickened out. There's no good justification for casting that spell. Just talk to Tara, I don't care about your 'drug' problem, you violated her free will!

'Tara is willing to go against her own morals to save herself' whole time it's just getting out of an abusive/toxic relationship.

Tara is not perfect but she was just worried about Willow and her misuse of power. At the end of the day, she was right! Willow went off the rails and tried to end the world!

 

[SavvyScoobie]

Willow removed Tara's desire to remove consent, Warren removed the ability

So she removed the desire, now how would we know if Tara wouldn't consent....you just took away her true feelings/desires.

If I'm starving you, but I remove your hunger, I'm actually still starving you. Everyone should understand basic consent, please do not go around thinking this.

Warren and Willow are both at fault, but only because Warren's girlfriend explicitly called it out is why you consider that to be attempted rape and not Tara's situation. Both are wrong, it's just that one situation had a misogynistic incel as the perpetrator, while another had a queer women as the perpetrator. Not surprising that one incident will be taken more seriously. Rape culture not only causes the violence but also dismisses it if a situation doesn't have the 'stereotypical victim' or fit a certain criteria. Which in Buffy's case, is the women who's being held against her will by a bunch of lowlifes and outright saying 'this is rape'. Versus maybe a queer women, in a queer relationship, being mind controlled. The supernatural aspect also makes it less 'credible' or 'believable'

 

[garfan]

@thetopher I do want to add, I don't think Tara was acting like she was demanding to be treated like the more knowledgeable of the two, but rather she just felt like she was. Sort of like "I told you this was wrong, why are you still doing it?" not even acknowledging that maybe Willow didn't think it was wrong

Willow cast that spell because she realized she was in a conflict, but didn't wanna put in the work to resolve it like a good partner. She chickened out. There's no good justification for casting that spell. Just talk to Tara, I don't care about your 'drug' problem, you violated her free will!

it wasn't being treated as a drug at that point

'Tara is willing to go against her own morals to save herself' whole time it's just getting out of an abusive/toxic relationship.

Tara is not perfect but she was just worried about Willow and her misuse of power. At the end of the day, she was right! Willow went off the rails and tried to end the world!

Yeah, she was, but her worry took the form of scolding and unspecific warnings of bad things

The end of the world run was the fault of Giles and the coven. There was no sign she was apocalyptic till she felt the entire world's pain

If I'm starving you, but I remove your hunger, I'm actually still starving you. Everyone should understand basic consent, please do not go around thinking this.

Warren and Willow are both at fault, but only because Warren's girlfriend explicitly called it out is why you consider that to be attempted rape and not Tara's situation. Both are wrong, it's just that one situation had a misogynistic incel as the perpetrator, while another had a queer women as the perpetrator. Not surprising that one incident will be taken more seriously. Rape culture not only causes the violence but also dismisses it if a situation doesn't have the 'stereotypical victim' or fit a certain criteria. Which in Buffy's case, is the women who's being held against her will by a bunch of lowlifes and outright saying 'this is rape'. Versus maybe a queer women, in a queer relationship, being mind controlled. The supernatural aspect also makes it less 'credible' or 'believable'

I would call Tara full of shit, because I feel like it was ridiculous comparing a memory erasure spell to being driven insane. Especially since she's under a memory spell every day of her life

 

[SavvyScoobie]

@thetopher I do want to add, I don't think Tara was acting like she was demanding to be treated like the more knowledgeable of the two, but rather she just felt like she was. Sort of like "I told you this was wrong, why are you still doing it?" not even acknowledging that maybe Willow didn't think it was wrong


it wasn't being treated as a drug at that point



Yeah, she was, but her worry took the form of scolding and unspecific warnings of bad things

The end of the world run was the fault of Giles and the coven. There was no sign she was apocalyptic till she felt the entire world's pain

I would call Tara full of shit, because I feel like it was ridiculous comparing a memory erasure spell to being driven insane. Especially since she's under a memory spell every day of her life

To sum this up: You don't give anyone exceptions, unless it's Willow. Nobody Willow hurts is the victim, unless it's actually Willow herself. Characters can't mistakes, unless it's Willow. There is no nuance or growing from mistakes, unless it's Willow. Oh and we ignore rape culture, and call victims 'full of shit', unless...Willow is the victim.

I'm guessing Willow's your fav. Good night! 🥸

Ima leave it to someone else to explain the mind control thingy because I do not feeeeeeeeel like it rn

 

[garfan]

actually I only start holding things against Tara when she starts getting hard on Willow, because Willow didn't hold anything against her

regarding the show, about the only time I condemn one of the characters is when one of them is coming down on one of the others, because I often find their issues with each other forced and illogical

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

actually I only start holding things against Tara when she starts getting hard on Willow, because Willow didn't hold anything against her

regarding the show, about the only time I condemn one of the characters is when one of them is coming down on one of the others, because I often find their issues with each other forced and illogical

Then why do you defend a wilful, controlling, morally bankrupt rapist megalomaniac who:

* Puts her will ahead of all her friends and almost gets then killed (my will be done)

* MURDERS people (Warren and Rack) and tries to murder others including Buffy and Dawn.

* She attempts to end the world... There is *NEVER* ANY EXCUSE FOR THAT. Only villains do that! Every one of us who has lost the love of our lives knows better. (Most of us don't even try to hurt the person who caused their death! much less anyone innocent) and yes it hurts forever.

* Mind controls and almost gets her friends killed because they dont know they can fight (mass memory spell)

* Drags her 'friend' out of heaven (she treats Buffy like a slay puppet, not a friend) AND then expects GRATITUDE. And she has the gall to judge Buffy for turning to the only person who did not drag her from heaven.

*She Leaves Buffy to DIG OUT OF HER GRAVE - the others had no way of knowing how the spell worked. She should have checked. (That alone could break someone's mind.- it traumatized me so much i decided to be cremated, not buried) They should have dug her up before the spell - lifting that earth could have been done with a simple spell. But Willow did not think about Buffy! Ego run riot.

* She takes a 14 year old to a magic drug dealer in his almost unplottable drug den. Who takes a kid to a crack house? Even most junkies dont do that.

* She drives magically under rhe influence and gets into an accident which could have caused death by demon or car, not just a broken arm. And it was DAWN who behaved like the responsible adult!

* Mind controls and uses Tara as a love slave (multiple mind wipes) and when they argue 'fixes' it by doing it again. Only Dawn's alertness clues Tara into the problem.

* She hides the nature of the spell to bring Buffy back because she knows the others would not accept the dark magic.

This is not all but she is the ONLY character who doesn't attempt genuine amends or even apology.

Sorry, cookies don't cut it when you blind someone and set demons on someone else. What if Spike and Buffy had sex under that spell? Neither would have consented at that point!

What if she had wished someone dead during my will be done?

She actually threatens Giles when he confronts her about raising Buffy. She is unrepentant.

She is mostly sorry for getting caught.

Even BOTH vampires make proper amends and they are DEMONS.

**Even soulless, evil Spike knew ending the world for Dru was wrong!

Even after going to magic rehab she is so lacking clarity that she almost gets herself killed by the gnarl. She has zero self insight.

Willow stands alone. She loves power. She honestly believes she has the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to decide for others. She substutes HER WILL for their rights...

She only accepts any 'help' so she doesnt get excluded from the cool kids 'world saveage' club. Tara tried to reason with her repeatedly.

She only stops trying to end the world because she could not bear to lose (and kill) Xander. THAT would have COST HER - and finally she thinks about that. (Xander is so much better a human in spite of his flaws. He has no power and puts himself in the line of fire anyway, and this is the second time hebd>rectly saves the world - first was CPR Buffy after braving the Master's killing lair) And Willow only stopped after she had the pure magics from Giles to begin to counter her wilfulness.

Before you say she is mad {psychotic}. Know that most people in psychosis don't do acts they aren't already capable of. It is why most mentally ill people dont kill or even hurt others. Psychosis allows impulses there to come to the fore.

Willow shows her sociopathy repeatedly from season one. It is only the gravity of consequences that changes as she gets more power.

And I am also out of this argument. I have said all i can and i am done.

 

[garfan]

Then why do you defend a wilful, controlling, morally bankrupt rapist megalomaniac w.ho:

because that's not how I see her.

I don't judge the Scoobies harshly. I think some of the terms the Scoobies use are wrong and overstated, I think the writers want cheap drama, and I think fans are way to harsh.

Xander didn't try to rape Buffy and was never going to do anything to Cordy under the love spell.

Buffy defended herself against Ted and had no fault in his seeming to die. She only ran away cause she was homeless and being looked at in Kendra's death. Without that the Scoobies would have likely found her curled up against Acathala sobbing.

Faith did not murder Alan Finch and the only response she actually needed to do in the aftermath of that was try to be less reckless

* Puts her will ahead of all her friends and almost gets then killed (my will be done)

the Will Be Done spell was designed to heal her heart. That is the first thing she tried to do when it, and two other things failed to materialize it was assumed the spell failed

There was less ill will there then in the BB&B spell

* MURDERS people (Warren and Rack) and tries to murder others including Buffy and Dawn.

Warren deserved it, and Rack wasn't intentional. There was no reason to think draining magic would be fatal

* She attempts to end the world... There is *NEVER* ANY EXCUSE FOR THAT. Only villains do that! Every one of us who has lost the love of our lives knows better. (Most of us don't even try to hurt the person who caused their death! much less anyone innocent) and yes it hurts forever.

She was insane

* Drags her 'friend' out of heaven (she treats Buffy like a slay puppet, not a friend) AND then expects GRATITUDE. And she has the gall to judge Buffy for turning to the only person who did not drag her from heaven.

She thought Buffy was in hell

*She Leaves Buffy to DIG OUT OF HER GRAVE - the others had no way of knowing how the spell worked. She should have checked. (That alone could break someone's mind.- it traumatized me so much i decided to be cremated, not buried) They should have dug her up before the spell - lifting that earth could have been done with a simple spell. But Willow did not think about Buffy! Ego run riot.

Yeah, that was dumb. I actually once wrote a ficlet once where Willow said the spell said not to disturb the body because the resurrected would come to them. And then it was pointed out that Egyptians(since Urn of Osiris) didn't bury their dead under six feet of dirt

Even BOTH vampires make proper amends and they are DEMONS.

Boy there's a LOT of people here who don't think Spike made any amends

**Even soulless, evil Spike knew ending the world for Dru was wrong!

he didn't think it was wrong, he just thought it would suck

Even after going to magic rehab she is so lacking clarity that she almost gets herself killed by the gnarl. She has zero self insight.

that's true for many of the Scoobies

Willow stands alone. She loves power

She gave up potential power to often to love power. Let's not forget when she gave up the power of the Ivy League the most powerful magic user

She only accepts any 'help' so she doesnt get excluded from the cool kids 'world saveage' club. Tara tried to reason with her repeatedly.

No, Tara tried to tell her things were wrong repeatedly. She never tried to reason. Neither did Giles. Reason requires more than this is wrong. And when your entire life is dangerous it also requires more than "this is dangerous." They never even told her people like Rack existed!

She only stops trying to end the world because she could not bear to lose (and kill) Xander. THAT would have COST HER - and finally she thinks about that. (Xander is so much better a human in spite of his flaws. He has no power and puts himself in the line of fire anyway, and this is the second time hebd>rectly saves the world - first was CPR Buffy after braving the Master's killing lair) And Willow only stopped after she had the pure magics from Giles to begin to counter her wilfulness.

She only went apocalyptic after getting those magics.

Before you say she is mad {psychotic}. Know that most people in psychosis don't do acts they aren't already capable of. It is why most mentally ill people dont kill or even hurt others. Psychosis allows impulses there to come to the fore.

She wasn't psychotic, she was temporarily insane

 

[thetopher]

To much is asked of Willow, and then she's condemned for relying to much on the tools she uses to fulfill those responsibilities. She should trust everyone else's opinion on when to use magic, but not her own. I don't like that. It feels like they're very close to turning her into nothing but Buffy's big gun, which is the sort of thing Buffy fought against. And Buffy gets to judge when it's appropriate to use her own powers. Willow doesn't get that grace.

Willow is hardly ever called to actual account for her actions, its what part of her arc is about; escalation. She does magic and, at least in highschool, she seems to have a handle on things. Her friends are supportive and glad of the help she can provide. Willow in 'Doppelgangland' at least has the wherewithal not to use her powers frivolously or 'toy with' magic- as she 'lectures' Anya about.

It's really only with college that the warnings can be seen; Willow uses her powers recklessly and causes harm to others, but all she has to do is bake cookies to calm her friends (who were blinded, mind-controlled and attacked by a variety of demons)
In S5 she unleashes a troll that seriously hurts people- including Xander- and she faces no real repercussions; Xanders's arm gets broken as a result of something she did and she doesn't get a harsh word sent her way. That's not any kind of accountability.
In s6 it gets sinister as she begins to spiral, and yet in the aftermath of Tabula Rasa only Tara does something- she leaves; her friends don't do anything to hold her to account.

Basically I think you're projecting fandom reaction to Willow's antics onto the showrunners and her friends where in actuality to fandoms reactions comes from the lack of consequences for Willow's antics.

I will say that Buffy has episodes and entire arcs about using her powers responsibly, not acting on her emotions thoughtlessly and is shown consistently trying to hold herself to a high standard- the criticism to Buffy coming across as self-righteous is an apt one but it fits her character's self perception. Buffy is hard on herself a lot of the time, which makes many in the fandom more forgiving.

Contrasted to this is Willow who doesn't have any of that (post- highschool) until S7 where she IS quite hard on herself and fearful of using magic 'the right way'...but this is still really about her and what will happen to her, not others, if she abuses the magicks. This is emphasized by the fact that the 'spell misfire' episodes 'Same Time, Same Place' and 'The Killer In Me' principally affect her and she is made to suffer.

Comparatively relatively little is asked of Tara

Because she doesn't abuse her powers consistently or is shown to have a lack of empathy for the people she hurt. The one time she unintentionally causes hurt she is in tears and is willing to go back to her abusive hick family.

 

[garfan]

Willow is hardly ever called to actual account for her actions, its what part of her arc is about; escalation.

I am actually not talking about assigning blame in the aftermath, I am generally complaining about them thinking they know better on when she should and shouldn't use magic, which tends to break down to they need her to do something with magic vs she thinks she needs to do something with magic

I will say that Buffy has episodes and entire arcs about using her powers responsibly, not acting on her emotions thoughtlessly and is shown consistently trying to hold herself to a high standard- the criticism to Buffy coming across as self-righteous is an apt one but it fits her character's self perception. Buffy is hard on herself a lot of the time, which makes many in the fandom more forgiving.

I consider Buffy as holding herself to to high a standard. Cordelia has it right in Ted and got told that was fascistic. But the fact is Buffy is perpetually in a war zone, one that can easily be infiltrated by her enemies at any time. To hold her to the same standards as a regular person is ridiculous

Comparatively relatively little is asked of Tara

Because she doesn't abuse her powers consistently or is shown to have a lack of empathy for the people she hurt. The one time she unintentionally causes hurt she is in tears and is willing to go back to her abusive hick family.

okay, so that was not what I was saying at all. I'm not talking lack of blame for actions, I'm talking lack of effort in saving people. People complain about Xander never learning to fight better. Tara did very little to upgrade her magical arsenal to fight the baddies the Scoobies face an no one in the show complained. Well, Willow was given plenty of responsibilities that she would not be able to handle without upgrading her magic and people in the show complained when she tried to upgrade her power

That's why I make the complaint about being Buffy's big gun turning Willow into a weapon for others, the very thing Buffy fought against being.

And it's why like the one positive thing regarding Willow's magic in the addiction arc Tara is when steps up to defend Willow not using magic when they were stuck in the house, but it was also a negative to me because there was a man bleeding to death in the house and that was putting Willow's mental health against a regular person's life, which heroes should not do

 

[hoponlilmama]

Then why do you defend a wilful, controlling, morally bankrupt rapist megalomaniac who:


* MURDERS people (Warren and Rack) and tries to murder others including Buffy and Dawn.

Just to be fair, Buffy tried to kill Faith, and also killed some of the Knights in s5 - who are human.

* Drags her 'friend' out of heaven (she treats Buffy like a slay puppet, not a friend) AND then expects GRATITUDE. And she has the gall to judge Buffy for turning to the only person who did not drag her from heaven.

Willow wasn't the only one who made the decision to bring Buffy back.

*She Leaves Buffy to DIG OUT OF HER GRAVE - the others had no way of knowing how the spell worked. She should have checked. (That alone could break someone's mind.- it traumatized me so much i decided to be cremated, not buried) They should have dug her up before the spell - lifting that earth could have been done with a simple spell. But Willow did not think about Buffy! Ego run riot.

Though this is not explained by the writers - it seems that they expected Buffy to magically appear on the surface with them. And they didn't intentionally leave her there - they were attacked by demons whilst in the middle of performing the resurrection, the vessel was smashed, and it looked like the spell failed to work.


I'll agree on a number of your other points about Willow and the awful things she did, but just wanted to make note of the above.

 

[hoponlilmama]

DeepBlueJoy I did not ever say Willow was soley responsible for the resurrection.

The way you worded it makes it sound like Willow was solely responsible. Though she might've been in charge of the spell and organising it, let's not forget she did it with a fellow witch and a 1100 year old demon with knowledge of magic/dark arts.

Buffy was wrong to try to kill Faith, but killing the Knights (and the German mercenaries who were trying to kill her and Cordy) was combat, not murder.

The point is you can't talk about killing humans and saying, "it's not the way" and then it's OK when it suits you. Buffy was also ready to kill anyone in s5 if anyone came near Dawn; she threatened the Scoobies directly. Can't be one rule for me, another for thee..

You could argue it's a blurry line they establish in the series.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

The way you worded it makes it sound like Willow was solely responsible. Though she might've been in charge of the spell and organising it, let's not forget she did it with a fellow witch and a 1100 year old demon with knowledge of magic/dark arts.



The point is you can't talk about killing humans and saying, "it's not the way" and then it's OK when it suits you. Buffy was also ready to kill anyone in s5 if anyone came near Dawn; she threatened the Scoobies directly. Can't be one rule for me, another for thee..

You could argue it's a blurry line they establish in the series.

No. Killing in combat or self defense is not murder. Buffy never murdered anyone. Had she killed Faith, that would have been murder. When she thought she had accidentally killed Katrina Silber (Warren's gf) she tried to turn herself into the police.

Willow never even considered confessing to killing Rack. (I dont think she could have explained Warren's death and there was no body)

Killing to protect someone else from death is usually ruled justifiable. No jury would convict her for protecting her sister from attack.

We have no idea if Willow manipulated the others magically but we do know she hid a lot about the spell from the others. Spike and Dawn were the only ones who were not culpable (and Giles by virtue of not being there) None of those 3 thought it a good idea, which i find interesting.

 

[garfan]

Faith was 12 to 24 hours from being in the Mayor's side during the battle at the high school where she would contribute to the death of every student he killed.

Now I grant that the situation gave Buffy an extra bonus and incentive but does a combatant really have to wait till a known enemy pulls out a weapon and attacks to avoid a murder claim?

Did Dawn actually think it was a bad idea, regarding Buffy being brought back?

 

[hoponlilmama]

No. Killing in combat or self defense is not murder. Buffy never murdered anyone. Had she killed Faith, that would have been murder.

She stabbed Faith? What do you think happens when you intentionally stab someone? She falls onto the truck and for all Buffy knows at that point, she killed her.

Buffy might not have directly murdered anyone, but she did allow people to die.

When she thought she had accidentally killed Katrina Silber (Warren's gf) she tried to turn herself into the police.

Valid. But that's why I said issue over this is blurred in the series.

Willow never even considered confessing to killing Rack. (I dont think she could have explained Warren's death and there was no body)

Killing to protect someone else from death is usually ruled justifiable. No jury would convict her for protecting her sister from attack.

Maybe the Sunnydale police will say Buffy defended her sister from gangs on PCP. 😉

We have no idea if Willow manipulated the others magically but we do know she hid a lot about the spell from the others.

She hid elements, not 'a lot'. It seems Tara knew more but they didn't tell the others because they might be frightened of the resurrection ritual.

Spike and Dawn were the only ones who were not culpable (and Giles by virtue of not being there) None of those 3 thought it a good idea, which i find interesting.

We know Giles, Spike and Dawn weren't involved.

Giles and Spike talked about the consequences of the dark magics/resurrection. Did Dawn ever talk about it not being a good idea? She was merely happy to have her sister back.

 

[thetopher]

I am actually not talking about assigning blame in the aftermath, I am generally complaining about them thinking they know better on when she should and shouldn't use magic, which tends to break down to they need her to do something with magic vs she thinks she needs to do something with magic

The amount of times people told Willow not use magic during the show is minimal and when she ignored them they were generally proven right. I'm thinking of 'Fear Itself' or 'Something Blue' or 'Tough Love' when she was actually discouraged by people, ignores them and then gets into trouble.

Even then overall Willow wasn't told no enough times. People who consistently abuse their power should be told no more often.

But the fact is Buffy is perpetually in a war zone, one that can easily be infiltrated by her enemies at any time. To hold her to the same standards as a regular person is ridiculous

Buffy has powers beyond those of a mortal, so does Willow; they simply came about them different ways. They should be held to the same standard, i.e hold themselves to a higher standard.
Buffy does, Willow doesn't.

okay, so that was not what I was saying at all. I'm not talking lack of blame for actions, I'm talking lack of effort in saving people. People complain about Xander never learning to fight better. Tara did very little to upgrade her magical arsenal to fight the baddies the Scoobies face an no one in the show complained

This sounds close to some baffling Nietzschean crap; like those without power are forbidden to comment on how those with power choose to wield it. Supervillain philosophy.
Like 'maybe don't be waving a gun at this crowd of people'
'bitch please come at me when you learn to shoot.'

Sorry, but it's highly immoral is what I'm saying. Like as if Buffy can go around telling Giles to shut up because she is the slayer and she has the power and until he gets to be the chosen one he doesn't get to voice an opinion.

And it's why like the one positive thing regarding Willow's magic in the addiction arc Tara is when steps up to defend Willow not using magic when they were stuck in the house, but it was also a negative to me because there was a man bleeding to death in the house and that was putting Willow's mental health against a regular person's life, which heroes should not do

This isn't really anything to do with Tara, blame Anya for putting Willow under mental duress. Or Dawn for carelessly wishing around people she didn't know, or Buffy for inexplicably bringing home a demon sword. It's odd to chastise Tara for this.

 

[garfan]

The amount of times people told Willow not use magic during the show is minimal and when she ignored them they were generally proven right. I'm thinking of 'Fear Itself' or 'Something Blue' or 'Tough Love' when she was actually discouraged by people, ignores them and then gets into trouble.
Even then overall Willow wasn't told no enough times. People who consistently abuse their power should be told no more often.

Comments made in season 3 make it clear Giles is consistently warning Willow off. Oz's comments in Fear, Itself show his general respons

Buffy has powers beyond those of a mortal, so does Willow; they simply came about them different ways. They should be held to the same standard, i.e hold themselves to a higher standard.
Buffy does, Willow doesn't.

I think Buffy holds herself to a to high standard. Willow hold's herself to a high standard in regards to helping fight the good fight. The only times she intentionally ignored the safety of others was in Smashed and Wrecked which I have always felt were OOC

This sounds close to some baffling Nietzschean crap; like those without power are forbidden to comment on how those with power choose to wield it. Supervillain philosophy.
Like 'maybe don't be waving a gun at this crowd of people'
'bitch please come at me when you learn to shoot.'

Sorry, but it's highly immoral is what I'm saying. Like as if Buffy can go around telling Giles to shut up because she is the slayer and she has the power and until he gets to be the chosen one he doesn't get to voice an opinion.

is someone expecting a lot of a person while denying them the tools to fulfill those things.

This isn't really anything to do with Tara, blame Anya for putting Willow under mental duress. Or Dawn for carelessly wishing around people she didn't know, or Buffy for inexplicably bringing home a demon sword. It's odd to chastise Tara for this.

I suppose. Your statement about Anya's the most true there, especially since there's no real guarantee it would work. Most fans have actually encouraged Buffy to collect from her enemies, but also, do you really think it's a good idea to just leave a sword lying around on the ground?

But well, Tara's the one who articulated the idea Willow's mental health was more important than taking a chance that might help save Richard

 

[garfan]

I forgot to add, the same time Giles was saying WIllow shouldn't be casting magic because her emotions were messed up he was talking with Buffy about how Willow was recovering well, to the point Spike had to call them on how wrong they were, and waiting for her to cast a truth spell.