Question If you ship B/A, how important is the Shanshu to you?

[DeadlyDuo]

But isn't it supposed to be his "reward" I mean didn't this prophecy come about to reward him for his fealty to the battle for good? If it is a reward granted by the Powers it could probably be signed away. I think if we start looking too seriously into this its going to get muddier and muddier because the writers probably didn't really think it through all that much.

Theoretically though, wouldn't Angel being willing to sign away his chance at the Shanshu for the greater good also be a point in his favour of why he should get the Shanshu? He's willing to sign away his "reward" selflessly in order to save the world.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Theoretically though, wouldn't Angel being willing to sign away his chance at the Shanshu for the greater good also be a point in his favour of why he should get the Shanshu? He's willing to sign away his "reward" selflessly in order to save the world.

Yeah but the world isn't always all that fair! See e.g. cursed lovers .... lol.

 

[Taaroko]

Yeah, that's another reason I don't buy that the Black Thorn can do that. You can't lose a cosmic reward for selflessness by proving you're so selfless you'd even give up the hope of reward. I view Angel's return from hell the same way, actually. Only when Buffy demonstrated her willingness to let him go and move on did he get sent back, because the Powers already knew they were going to need him fighting on a different front from her, which meant she needed to be emotionally prepared for it.

 

[EarthLogic]

I think a permanently human Angel can only ever as a finale or epilogue to his story. While I do believe that there is a compelling story there to tell about Angel coming to terms with living a non-superpowered normal life, it just wouldn't work simply for marketing purposes. Angel's USP is vampire with a soul who fights for redemption. Without that he just becomes another demon hunter and I don't think you can sustain that for very long without it growing stale. It would be interesting as a half-season arc, but not as a permanent fixture of the narrative because then it completely changes the nature of it.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I think a permanently human Angel can only ever as a finale or epilogue to his story. While I do believe that there is a compelling story there to tell about Angel coming to terms with living a non-superpowered normal life, it just wouldn't work simply for marketing purposes. Angel's USP is vampire with a soul who fights for redemption. Without that he just becomes another demon hunter and I don't think you can sustain that for very long without it growing stale. It would be interesting as a half-season arc, but not as a permanent fixture of the narrative because then it completely changes the nature of it.

Interestingly, I understand that Joss had planned to make Angel human for Season 6. I can't recall where I read that. But not sure if that was by way of the senior partners like ATF.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I've said it before but I primarily want the Shanshu as a way to explore Angel's character in a different way. I'm so tired of the status quo. That Angel, who is essentially a good person, for some reason deserves eternal punishment, is tiresome to me. Why does he have to suffer eternally for things he didn't even do?

Liam was not a stellar human but the person he hurt the most was himself by his self-destructive behavior. It's not like he was a serial killer or serial rapist. Angelus is a demon, he is not Liam. Then gypsies stuff his innocent soul back into his body with a curse that seems specifically designed to weigh heavy on the soul. Then he has no one there to help him, he stumbles a lot (by getting back with Darla for a while). And every time he tries to pick himself back up, he gets screwed (ala AYNHYEB).

Once Angel found a purpose via the Powers and Buffy, it just won't end. Things go wrong with Buffy because no one bothered to tell him about the clause in the curse and hurts a lot of people. When he is in L.A. he continues the fight, he makes friends, finds a family. He wants these things so he works to get them. Then he has a child of his own and just like with Buffy, his status as vampire comes back to ruin it all for him. And just like with Buffy, he ends up having to give up the one person he loves the most because being anywhere near him will be bad for that person. And then almost all of his friends die.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!! It's tiring and tired. I want something different. Seeing a good person punished over and over is not my idea of fun. Maybe that's true to life but it gets boring and stale in a tv show.

Having Angel shanshu would afford the writers a gold mine in terms of storytelling. Because I don't see Angel fundamentally changing just because he is human. Like I've said before, I actually see Angel suffering from depression for quite a while. Because he did quite a few questionable things, his friends died so why does he get to live. There would also be a lot of self-doubt about his purpose and what to do with his life. There is also plenty of humor to be gained from this. Angel having to rediscover normal human things like food which was so freaking funny in IWRY. Angel's social awkwardness is also part of his character that I don't see changing quickly, if at all.

In terms of B/A. I could see a human Angel with pre-Dawnverse Buffy. However Dawnverse Buffy would need a couple of years of therapy to sort out herself and what she actually wants. She has long running issues that she has never dealt with. As she is now, I wouldn't want her anywhere near Angel. He deserves better IMO.

 

[Taaroko]

Agreed, @RomanticSoul. When you have a character as rich and interesting as Angel, he doesn't need to stay a vampire to stay interesting. I want to know how Angel would handle suddenly being physically a normal dude. The good fight is so deeply engrained in him; I don't see him retiring from it just because he's human, so how does he approach it without his vamp powers?

I think BtVS suffered from the status quo problem worse than Angel did, though. BtVS is supposed to be a show about growing up, but at some point, it needs to become a show about being an adult. Most of the main cast have been adults for years and they've been dealing with more than most adults for longer than that, yet it doesn't really seem like they're particularly grown up. (It's tempting to contrast their maturity with Cordelia's, but her character development was too uneven and poorly done for that to be fair.) Yes, Xander gets a career type job that comes with a car and Buffy becomes the most implausible councilor ever, but what about college? What about figuring out how to make the fight against evil lucrative enough to not have to maintain separate employment that consumes valuable evil-fighting time?

I dunno. It feels like I'm not explaining this well. And now I have to go to work.

 

[EarthLogic]

I think BtVS suffered from the status quo problem worse than Angel did, though. BtVS is supposed to be a show about growing up, but at some point, it needs to become a show about being an adult. Most of the main cast have been adults for years and they've been dealing with more than most adults for longer than that, yet it doesn't really seem like they're particularly grown up. (It's tempting to contrast their maturity with Cordelia's, but her character development was too uneven and poorly done for that to be fair.) Yes, Xander gets a career type job that comes with a car and Buffy becomes the most implausible councilor ever, but what about college? What about figuring out how to make the fight against evil lucrative enough to not have to maintain separate employment that consumes valuable evil-fighting time?

I agree. I've always felt that the next step after Chosen/NFA would be for Buffy and the gang to encounter Wolfram and Hart and the world A.I. have been fighting in. Angel's move from Sunnydale to L.A was about stepping into a greyer adult world where evil doesn't just come in the form of demons, but is something more systemic and is much more difficult to fight because it operates in plain sight. It's logical that after leaving the familiarity of Sunnydale, the Scoobies would have to take that step too. (I also think having The First later revealed as an agent of W&H would have made sooo much more sense)